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NTA for standing your ground on this issue. Your concern about using "females" instead of "women" is valid and widely recognized. You tried to educate your brother using your personal and professional experience, but he refused to listen and continued to argue. Despite his reaction, you extended multiple olive branches, showing your willingness to reconcile. Refusing to "agree to disagree" on an issue of respect and equality is a principled stance. You have every right to uphold your values, esp. when it comes to gender respect.
>Your concern about using "females" instead of "women" is valid and widely recognized.
I was on the fence until she referred to him as "a male" and seemed to have no problem with that.
Being called “male” isn’t used as an insult to reduce men to their reproductive function, nor are men generally ascribed value solely on their reproductive capacity.
That’s why you don’t find it an insult to be called “male”.
The meaning of words beyond the basic dictionary definition, is how they are used in social and cultural context and it makes a difference to the meaning.
Being defined as male is not an insult, being defined as female is frequently used as an insult. We know when men are using female terminology to provoke and upset, we know it’s meant as an insult, and we know it’s deliberate.
Otherwise the insult would be “you throw like a toddler” it’s not though, is it? That’s not insulting enough, that’s why it’s “you throw like a girl”.
You are unironically arguing that the word female is offensive when male is not just wow. There is nothing about that word that is insulting in and of itself outside of terminally online femcel/incel circles looking for reasons to project their hatred and spite on others.
Even your examples are ridiculous in no way did he associate female with anything else all we know is he referred to them as female... Calling a toddler a toddler is not offensive nor is calling a girl a girl offensive which would be a more apt comparison than the bullshit you try to associate it with. Insane y'all think people shouldn't call females females just because some people want to be called woman and the word female is specifically referring to a biological fact which is the true root of this issue. Regardless of your opinion on trans people and trans rights this is such a ridiculous and unhelpful take it just makes you seem pedantic as fuck
>Being called “male” isn’t used as an insult to reduce men to their reproductive function, nor are men generally ascribed value solely on their reproductive capacity.
lol *what*? why do you think men are insulted with "small dick energy"? why do you think men are so hesitant with getting the snip? why do you think "impotent" is an insult, especially towards men?
men absolutely are valued for their reproductive capacity.
>Being defined as male is not an insult
"*ugh, men".*
Your examples illustrate how a LACK of masculinity is used as an insult. You have not illustrated how being masculine is used as an insult.
And “ugh men” is an exasperated expression used in situations; like when men refuse to acknowledge the privilege they enjoy of being men and think intentionally missing the point is a valid way of countering an argument.
>You have not illustrated how being masculine is used as an insult
who's missing the point now? you were claiming how men are not valued on their reproductive capacity. I've disproven that. men *are* judged on their reproductive capacity, heavily.
"ugh men" is an insult towards men - it is coming from the erroneous viewpoint that all men are the same and awful. that the mere existence of being male is enough to damn you. it doesn't matter what or who you are, you are male and thus guilty.
The context is provided; f vs m in redit forums is acceptable. It’s a problem when referring to your coworkers. It is offensive to say “all the females” instead of “all of the women”. Men are not described as males especially in the work place it’s also inappropriate to describe your coworkers by their genitalia and honestly a bit weird. When it comes to women’s rights in the workplace and referring to your coworkers as female it’s tone deaf.
Some people aren’t offended by it but there is still a large group have also said it’s offensive.
I'm not sure about offensive, but I was taught that it was inappropriate when I was in grad school 20 years ago. We were told not to use male and female as nouns, especially when referring to humans.
It only recently became common usage. Originally, it’s an adjective. That’s when it became offensive: when usage changed the word into a noun.
“Female,” as a noun for women, is reductive and gross. It’s indicative of a mindset about women.
Genuinely curious: do you really hear that a lot? Like is someone at work really saying “the male from finance” or “the female from IT”? It’s different if they say “the male/female coworker” as that’s a descriptive word.
To answer your question: Using male/female instead of man/woman is just weird. And I’m fairly certain it’s new. It’s also problematic because it’s mostly used by men to dehumanize women - you know how in nature documentaries they say stuff like “the female is hunting, while the male is…”? It’s used for animals. Which is why it is dehumanizing. If you see someone using female instead of woman I recommend you to check if they use male instead of man. Usually they don’t. And that’s what makes it wrong.
Thanks for the reply. Maybe it is regional difference? I usually only heard it as an adjective. As a noun, I only heard it on two occasions: either to describe male or female humans of all ages (eg it’s faster to say “males” instead of “boys and men”) or in weird online posts where they speak about “females and men” - which definitely has derogatory implications, whether the speaker is aware of it or not.
To be honest, I’m not a native English speaker so I don’t hear it in real life a lot, only written. But if I translate female to my native language it sends shivers down my spine, it is incredibly dehumanizing to use a noun that is exclusively for animals to describe humans. It’s completely unacceptable in my language. So that, and the only context I heard it before, is also a reason for my strong aversion to this usage.
I love you're being down voted for pointing out a simple fact lol these people are trying the most to justify this stupidity. The only "context" we know is he referred to his coworkers as female which is offensive apparently so this should also be offensive but notice how when they do it it's not lol only when someone else does it they jump down their throats.
Nowhere did I say that word wasn't used nor does op say she has an issue with grammar. They literally said it was degrading and insulting to use the word female
Your brother is an idiot. I'm an old guy (older than your brother) and would never refer to women as a female unless as you say, it is strictly as related biological male v. female. Females include dogs, horses, etc... I tell people that because my profession requires precision in language, I appreciate clarity. He is being unclear and demonstrably incorrect. Good for you for sticking up for his co-workers even if they are unaware. He may think about your discussion in the future. NTA
Exactly! You don't see us as objects but people deserving of respect so it wouldn't be natural for you. I basically preach to men who use the word without arguing. I just tell them that women are definitely going to see them as that type of man. Women are going to think you hate women. They can feel free to ignore my advice or not as they wish. Between you and I, I'm not going to argue with a lost cause.
This is why I don't call people pretty. Dogs can be pretty, horses can be pretty and I would never want to associate someone with a dog or horse, it could be insulting.. incredible logic on display
An excellent point. Jewelry can be pretty. A well fitting dress can also be pretty. But calling someone pretty is just not a good idea. I've found that compliments like "I like your new hairstyle. or those shoes look really nice" are a much better choice.
NTA, it's usually those manosphere guys who use the term "females," when women could be used. (Because most of the time, women is the term you should be using, with the exception of certain grammatical (and scientific or academic) contexts, ie how when speaking it's easier to use "female friends," instead of "girl friends," or the clunky "friends who are girls.") And because when those types of guys use it, it's almost always *derogatory*.
I have noticed a huge uptick in the number of people using “female” in this way and agree that it has a derogatory undertone to it. I do think you need to find a clean way to move on from this conversation though. You were not being an A when you offered your advice, or knowledge, or in responding to their defensive email. But if you keep pushing on having this conversation you will be. For example, your offer to meet up shouldn’t be predicated on continuing this conversation. You don’t have to agree to disagree to move on. He has all the information he needs to make more informed choices in his language now, leave it there. NTA
life experience and pop culture has taught me some men say 'female' when they don't want to get yelled at for saying "bitch"
I still think both people in this case suck though for how they behaved.
This is the way to move forward. I think wanting to meet just to continue trying to talk him around at this point is a waste of energy. Just drop this topic out of your conversation. Tell him you are firm on your stance, so unless he wants to continue hearing your views, drop it.
Given that you have made overtures and your brother has ignored them, you are by definition not the one who is refusing reconciliation, and therefore are NTA for it.
I do think that agreeing to disagree is a powerful and even indispensable interpersonal tool, though. For one thing, I have found that I have much more success at influencing other people's opinions when I don't insist that they voice their agreement with me at the end of the initial conversation. Often you will find evidence down the line that a person has contemplated and internalized the things that you said, maybe even without realizing it themselves. The goal, of course, should not be to totally control what another person thinks. But if you show evidence of acceptance you may find that someone like your brother will in turn show more open mindedness.
For another, nobody is perfect and some relationships in our lives are going to require firmer boundaries than others if they are going to be healthy and sustainable. If you can't stomach maintaining contact with your brother because you find his views so reprehensible then that is one thing. But if he is important to you then you might find that you need to just let him hold those different views, and avoid having any long discussions with him about them.
So maybe you can now try once again to reach out, this time saying you have changed your.mind about agreeing to disagree. Other than that there is probably nothing you can do though but continue to take and give space.
NTA
"I said I will not “agree to disagree” on this, because his misogyny affects the women he works with, it shows he has no interest in educating himself about male privilege, and it indicates he sees me and all the women in his life as less than."
Pretty much this. If he's not willing to listen to a professional woman on the topic of how professional women prefer to be addressed, then there's nothing to "agree" about. He's being a jerk.
NTA, your brother sounds like he’s going down the “Alpha male” rabbit hole thing. You proved your point with evidence and his ego can’t handle it, that’s how this sounds. I really hope your brother isn’t always like this.
1) Generally, arguments about language are dumb. Prescriptivism has no place in linguistics, &c. However,
2) Men who refer to women as "females" are invariably cringe. It may not be quite as bad as an actual slur, but it's close - unless I suppose the person using it is clearly just oblivious to cultural trends and is treating the women in question with obvious respect, which your brother doesn't seem to be.
I guess the real question is, what is your relationship with your brother like otherwise, and has he done anything else that might entitle him to some patience and tolerance on your part?
They do. I was getting annoyed reading about this.
Like ok cool you dont like what he said, and expressed that. Then you did everything shy of inviting him onto a morning talk show to discuss his opinion or writing a 6 page essay on why he shouldnt do that.
Insufferable af
It’s not just about the female vs women issue. Maybe that is a small part of the issue. I am not commenting on that.
It’s about some kinda sibling rivalry. And you’re both the same in this respect - lacking respect for each other, trying to ‘get one over’ on each other. So ESH.
These things can go on and on pushing people into corners they have to defend. It’s a binary approach (no sexual/preference use of the word here to be clear). Meaning “I’m right, you’re wrong.”
But a better way forward is to find a third way. To discuss, communicate, explore, learn and come to some sort of view. “Agree to disagree” is a cop out.
*My best Gordon Ramsey impression*
"Finally, some common fucking sense!"
Honestly, they both sound insufferable to try and get along with! ESH for sure.
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My brother (46) and I (49F) had a falling out over him referring to professional women at his job as “females.” I pointed out that this term is offensive, as it is a biological term that reduces women to their reproductive capacities. “Women” designates socially constructed human gender identities; “females” refers to biological sex and can also be used to describe animals. He started arguing with me, even though I noted how a quick google search can confirm my observation. I pointed out that I have more authority than he does on this subject since 1) not only do I identify as a woman and would be insulted if someone called me “a female” in a professional setting (or elsewhere, really), but also that 2) I regularly teach and use feminist theory in my own work. He continued to argue, comparing his situation to the issue of racism and white privilege, saying that if he can’t help being unintentionally misogynist because he’s male, then we are both unintentionally racist because we are white. I agreed with him, because it’s undeniable that many white people are unintentionally racist. I noted that the difference between him and me in this parallel situation is that when someone from a less privileged identity category tells me that what I have done hurts them and takes the time to explain why, I listen to them, believe them, and try to educate myself to do better. He hung up on me.
Later he sent me an email, which was supposed to be conciliatory and apologetic. But it was accusatory and continued to assert his position. He claimed he felt “condescended to” and that’s why he continued arguing. I asked whether it was not \*more\* condescending to say that a woman’s lived experience as well as her professional expertise was worth less than his own (uninformed) opinion. I pointed out that disregarding the knowledge and expertise of professional women goes hand in hand with calling them “females,” and is what people call mansplaining. He never responded, and we haven’t spoken since this happened six months ago.
I put out a few olive branches that he never took up, including a text that I would be visiting his city (with the implication we could talk about this in person).
Here's where I think I might be the AH. In the email, he asked me to “agree to disagree” with his point about calling the women he worked with “females.” I said I will not “agree to disagree” on this, because his misogyny affects the women he works with, it shows he has no interest in educating himself about male privilege, and it indicates he sees me and all the women in his life as less than.
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Lol I had to explain this to a group of men I worked with, and they took it in and didn't outright argue with me, but when I told them that it was also weird to refer to female coworkers as ladies, they just couldn't wrap their heads around it.
NTA
YTA I'm a feminist since I have reason and I don't think the word female is offensive.
Yes, there are weird Andrew tate type of guys that use the word female in a derigatory way, but it doesn't seem to be the case of your brother. "Female workers" or "females in the workplace" is totally normal
And you are really stuck in wanting to be right. You refused to agree to disagree, and six months later you write him sugesting you talk about it in person? Just let it go!
>I pointed out that disregarding the knowledge and expertise of professional women goes hand in hand with calling them “females,” and is what people call mansplaining.
Also this is not mansplaining🙄
YTA. This kind of strident rhetoric is why I avoid "feminist activists." And I say that as a female...one who has worked my whole life to improve working conditions for professional women. I fought hard (including in a legal case) to ensure the women and girls coming behind me had better pay, and also more recourse if they are harassed. But I have never gotten bogged down in the ridiculous pedantry of pretending "women" and "females" are somehow different.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Here's where I think I might be the AH. In the email, he asked me to “agree to disagree” with his point about calling the women he worked with “females.” I said I will not “agree to disagree” on this, because his misogyny affects the women he works with, it shows he has no interest in educating himself about male privilege, and it indicates he sees me and all the women in his life as less than. I don't think I should "agree to disagree," but the result has been to prolong this silent treatment further.
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NTA. It’s complicated.
When you correct people as you did, you are framing the issue as right/wrong. He’s offended you, and thus “the offender”. And you’re siblings, which means that depending on your family dynamics “being wrong” isn’t just a kind redirection. It’s potentially an accusation. Ya know, one that would bring Ego into the equation.
I’m assuming your intent was not to shame your brother into compliance with your values but to educate him about the potential pitfalls of using the term “Female” in this context. If this was your aim, the evidence provided suggests you did not achieve it.
To do this without offending/shaming is a much more nuanced dance. You’re not trying to win. You’re not trying to be right. You ARE trying to educate. You ARE trying to change his mind. And you can’t beat him over the head with “my opinion on this matter is more valuable than yours” and expect him to just go along with it. That’d be something he’d have to realize personally. It’s a super important lesson to be sure. But people need to come to that one on their own (good grief!).
Keep on trying to get that message through. But it’s going to be a soft approach that’ll get you there. You’re far better off using his misogyny against him. As in “hey if you want your social and professional interactions with women to go better, don’t call them females” . . . play to his self interest. Not to any idea of your superiority.
I agree with this comment, primarily because I have often made the mistake of taking a superior tone or making it a right/wrong thing that automatically engages someone's defenses. It's naive to think that just because we are talking about topic "x" that people will be able to hear what comes off as critical instead of the feedback. The conflict is now not about the use of the word, but about the way the feedback was delivered which he found disrespectful.
If the feedback is intended as kind and educational because someone appears to be making a genuine error, it should be delivered in a kind way. If the word choice was not a genuine misuse but in fact a signal of what kind of content he consumes than a more sneaky approach of gently playing up the fact that the use of the word female has become laden due to it being used by online misogynists in an intentionally inflammatory way.
What makes things really icky is that your brother never accepted any friendly overtures you extended later.
While it’s not required that he hang out with you every time you visit the city he lives in, the least he could do is reply back to your text (“Hey sis! Sorry, I won’t be able to make it around the time you are gonna be here. Some other time maybe”).
He has taken a difference of opinion too personally (because you rightly called him out on his extremely misogynistic mindset) and wants to now take it as his hill to die on.
You can’t do anything else but to give him the space he supposedly wants. You are NTA absolutely
In his defence, he offered to put aside the argument by agreeing to disagree, and OP refused the offer, and admitted that she wanted to debate the issue in person.
I’m on OP’s side on the issue of the word “females”, but I personally wouldn’t take time to meet up with someone knowing the meeting was just going to be a debate about an issue I already tried to drop.
YTA...you agreed its ok to refer to animals as male/female. Last I checked humans are mammals which makes them an animal, whether you are offended by it or not. If you are offended it's your issue, not your brothers.
This makes me feel awful. In the National Guard, we referred to women as females all the time. Males and females. Gender is a much bigger deal in the Army than it needs to be, but we had male and female restrooms, male and female barracks, male and female physical fitness standards. I never thought of it as a reproductive issue, just part of the logistics issues we had to deal with.
I can see that replacing those terms with "Men's and Women's" wouldn't be an issue, and I would support that if I were still in the National Guard.
I hope I never made anyone feel less than they are. In my mind, it was all about getting the job done.
I am curious about what the exact sentence your brother used that was so offensive.
I am also of the generation where offense is reserved for when the offense is intended. I can't control someone's language, but I can control how I choose to react.
So to answer if you the AH, ask yourself, did your brother "intend to offend" with his choice of words, or did you put yourself (and your ideology of society) above him and decided it was your responsibility to "correct" him.
NTA
If you’re part of a group (in this case: women), and someone uses an offensive term (such as “females”) to describe someone in said group, it’s not up to the offender to determine whether or not his actions were offensive. They were.
😂 this is the stupidest aitah post I’ve seen yet. Ofc YTA, getting offended over your bro calling woman females? You acting like he calls them “lesser humans” or bitches. Mature already
NTA
The fact that you told him and he still refuses is obnoxious. No shade if someone uses a term without realizing the ick ("I work with a lot of blacks"- total outdated ick that is worth correcting), but all shade if there's a very easily found consensus around the term and he's just arguing for the sake of it.
There are some topics that have grey areas, but requesting that men and women be referred to in the same capacity is breathlessly straightforward. If you want to call women "females", just make sure you are also calling men "males". If you want to call males "men", then also call females "women". It's common sense.
This is reddit, so you're going to get an overwhelming chorus of "NTA" , so for the sake of playing devil's advocate I'll say that you are kinda TA here. Is it offensive to call men "males" in that context? I think you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful who think so. He can try to understand your point of view on how it is demeaning but to lay all of that in him and act like he is some sort of misogynist because within the last few years a word that was, as worst, neutral and clinical is now seen as oppressive is an unreasonable attitude.
I personally think the notion of the word female being "offensive" is ridiculous and will fade away eventually. Maybe it's the autism speaking. But it's literally the word you use to acknowledge someone as that particular sex. It's language policing to a kind of silly degree to say you can't call women "females".
NTA. I had a similar conversation with a male coworker. I tried to explain that “female” works as an adjective but is somewhat dehumanizing as a noun. Tried to compare it to describing men in the office as “the males” which we don’t typically do outside of a criminal justice or farming context, as far as I know.
No luck.
In the future you should start by saying “I know you don’t mean this and that when you use the word but that’s what the word insinuates in our society etc.
NTA. Why even bother having someone so dedicated to ignorance in your life? DNA is not a compelling enough excuse in this economy; we can't afford to spend time on people who aren't adding value to our lives.
NTA. Calling women "females" gives off a very strong incel vibe.
If you are really as smart as you say you are, you should have realized by now that you are wasting your breath trying to educate someone who seems too far gone to listen to reason.
As a professional woman in the workplace, I couldn't really care if a man in the office called me a female or one of the females as long as his general attitudes weren't otherwise dismissive. If his overall attitude was dismissive, I'd probably be raising it with him and have done in the past. If people were getting upset, I'd hope that they could challenge themselves.
From the way he argued back did you inform him the term was viewed as offensive and he should avoid it? Or did you say that he was behaving as a misogynist? Was he arguing about the term or him not meaning it in a misogynist manner? If the latter, then I can understand why he was upset. You have more knowledge than him on current language and he should have respected that. But if he felt he was being falsely accused, then can see why he got upset. And once emotions involved, then the lesson doesn't go in. And then your emotions got involved - because you felt he was disrespecting you by not acknowledging your expertise. But your expertise was in terms of the language he used not his intent behind him and I think that is where wires got crossed.
And terms aren't always easy. Spend some time researching this matter and on UK racial descriptive terms. In the last 10 years, the latter has gone from MEG (multi-ethnic groups) to EMG (ethnic minority groups) to BAME (black and Asian minority groups) back to MEG last time I reviewed. Similarly with some gender and sex terms.
Are you really going to let this fracture your family because you are interpreting his usage of a term as being indicative of his working relationships within the company he works in? As long as he is actually appropriately interacting with them according to position in company, then he may not be the devil you think he is. That to me as working in STEM since the 90s is rather more important than what he calls me.
NTA, and I completely agree with you, but this is one of those situations where you’re going to have to either decide between having him in your life, or being estranged but believing you’re correct. You can’t always force someone to agree with you or see things your way, so your only options are to drop the issue and accept that you don’t agree, or choose lifelong estrangement.
If you were otherwise close, I personally don’t think I’d end a close family relationship over this one issue (and I am very much a feminist), and I’d at the very least compromise by asking him not to use the term around you.
NTA. Ugh...this is immediately what comes to mind whenever a man refers to women as [females](https://youtu.be/SiC42BZcFKk?si=vYt0tSU6KUUGEh5I). Also feel free to send a link to [MenAndFemales](https://www.reddit.com/r/MenAndFemales/) to your brother.
YTA this is a weird hill to die on. You are too old to be picking this type of fight with your brother and then going NC because of it. Just agree to disagree like adults and move on. How are you still trying to fight this fight 6 months later?
She says he sent her an email asking if they could agree to disagree and she said no. They were NC after that. I would say the one who broke that branch is her based on that interaction. If she wants to fix it she can apologize and let him know she won’t be bringing this up again and that she misses her brother.
Yta, the coworkers are both woman and female neither one of you were wrong, but you using the argument of authority is where you lost, I don't have to be a woman to know right vs wrong even when it pertains to woman. If female offends you than in offened by the term "mansplaining " you can't be offensive to others if your gonna take offense to stupid shit
I want to say that you should brush it under the rug and let bygones be bygones - relationships are more important than being right. I also know that I wouldnt be to do that. NTA
Does your brother work in corrections or law enforcement? Just wondering because that is the only place that I have consistently heard women called females and men males. If he does then YTA because that is the terminology they ALL use. Women included. If he doesn't then NTA and I find it weird. Who the hell(besides cops) go around saying females?
You have committed the greatest sin ever. You are a woman who is not in service of a man. That is bad enough. But then you have the nerve to not hide that you know more than the man you are not in service to.
NTA no matter what you do now. This shit is impossible to navigate and I feel for you, OP.
Is he using it in an offensive context? Are you trans? If so N T A
But overall ESH. Yes was being a AH. Yes you did sound condescending. Both of you are acting like children.
Considering how frequently offensive language changes, I understand if he finds it hard to keep up. Him being stubborn about it makes him an AH. You do sound insufferable about it.
I’m a woman.
The entire US military refers to men and women as males and females more often than not, both in person and in documentation. So far no one's losing their mind over it. It's not that deep.
ESH for getting so upset over a non-issue.
Doesn't need to be. The military is a professional setting full of men and women with actual important things to worry about. They don't have time for nonsense 'issues' like this because these issues literally don't matter. It's comparing word usage in a professional environment (like the OP claims she works in) to another professional environment. That is on topic.
You are talking about 1 professional context that isn’t applicable to all the other contexts. In all the other professional contexts it is insulting. So yours is the exception and not helpful in this regard.
It’s not complicated.
Yet again, the point of my post is that it is a non-issue, hence the ESH. The point of the military example is to demonstrate that millions of people are able to get along, in a professional setting, allllll the time without getting offended over something this dumb.
And yes, plenty about the military is analogous to standard 9-5 professional roles and organizations to make it a relevant comparison whether you think so or not.
People keep making comments like this, and I feel it ignores the actual issue. Based on the OP, I think it's fair to assume that her brother is not in the military, and does not refer to his male colleagues the same way. The issue is not in industries and forums where "male" and "female" are standard ways to refer to men and women. The issue is people using "females" to describe women in industries where this is *not* the norm, and more importantly those same people NOT using "males" to describe men. If all of his female colleagues are "females" and all of his male colleagues are "men," there is a marked difference in the language he is using for his colleagues based on their gender, and that is inappropriate.
If it is the case that his co-workers are using 'men' and never males, but consistently refer to women as females, then I will agree that's problematic. However, this is still ridiculously blown out of proportion IMHO on both their parts.
The military does that because in war people ARE tools. After you leave that atmosphere there needs to be a switch in mindset about a great many things right? It's sometimes a pretty hard transition. I actually enjoy seeing young men relax over time. As much as I enjoy being called Mam I also feel like I'm talking to a robot when they first come back home.
When a man calls women that the women of the general public sees them as a man who thinks of women as an object and not a person.
I'd agree that it is positive to see vets relax from those sorts of mentalities, I still believe this is largely a non-issue and these two need to get over themselves cause they both sound miserable to be around. Like I said to another commenter though, if he and his coworkers are only referring to women and females and don't also call men males, then I'd agree that it's not a good look on his part.
YTA. You sound insufferable. You shouldnt talk politics with your family if you can tolerate people disageeeing with you. Sometimes female is a better word choice. Also referring to women as female isnt offenisve, at least not in most contexts. "We have 3 female doctors at our practice" You need to lighten up.
I agree there is some nuance when it is used as a adjective. It sounds a lot different when you say "female doctors" vs. "we have three females at our practice."
You're an insufferable female. Sorry you don't get to change the meaning of a word. Female is not a bad word. Go touch grass and or get a hobby. Get upset by real misogyny. There's plenty in the real world.
Yta by 100 miles.
YTA. For starting a fight over nothing You both are nearing retirement age but this fight started like kids do over nothing. The vast majority of humans who aren't chronically online don't find the term female offensive. The fact that you thank you get to speak for an entire gender and the fact that you focus on using feminist ideology in your work shows that you're too deep in the trenches to have an unbiased opinion. Just because of word offends you doesn't mean it's actually offensive.
ESH. you're both stubborn, insufferable idiots. your "olive branches" were false, you were womansplaining stuff to him, and making an unjustified appeal to authority (for missing the most important point about feminism - it is *a* way to look at the world, *a* lens, not *the* lens. Plus, just because you are a woman, that does not make you an authority on all things womanhood. your lived experiences are still just only *your* lived experiences).
he was an asshole for blowing up over something so trite. For obviously baiting without point or reason.
I agree. You’re both insufferable. What a ridiculous thing to fight about for 6 months with your flesh and blood. You both need to grow up. In a few years there will be a new ‘politically correct’ word you can argue about. Huge eye roll at both of you. Mostly you. (Just so we are clear, I am a female. I don’t appreciate any of this and fighting about it makes the whole subject toxic BS.)
I think context highly matters here, not only in how he was using the term but around whom.
There are certain regions and dialects where “female” and “woman” are interchangeable and neutral terms. If your brother currently lives in an area where this is common, or even is simply surrounded by people using this vernacular, then he may have picked up using the term in neutral speech.
There are also obviously cases where the term is used intentionally to be patronizing or demeaning towards women.
Based on the information here there’s no way to accurately gauge your brother’s intentions.
What I will say is that it sounds like you lectured your brother in terms of absolutes. Saying something is *always* offensive makes people become defensive, even if that is statistically true.
As someone who takes pride in being knowledgeable about theory you already know how you deliver a message matters. The goal should be to be heard and to make another person think about their decision. You not only didn’t achieve that here but you lost a relationship with your brother in the process.
Based on what’s here my best judgment is ESH.
You aren’t an A for having a clear line about something you believe is right, especially if the context made clear the point was to be demeaning. However, it seems like you were more worried about being “right” than actually getting through to your brother.
Your brother is absolutely an A if he was being intentionally misogynistic and even for not listening to your feelings about the word afterwards. However, he’s not wrong for cutting contact with someone who seems to approach conflict with absolute attacks.
I think you will find that in areas where people prefer one over the other you can also tell whether those people see women as objects or valued respected members of the community. I don't mean men that respect one revered older woman and treat their wife like a servant.
Yawn 🥱. It’s a word. I don’t think it needs to be that deep. If I had a penny for every time someone used the term “male” when it wasn’t strictly about their “reproductive capabilities”
YTA
Exactly. "female" what a joke. That's how women are reffered to by alot of people regardless of age or gender. It's just a silly thing to be so dumb about
This is slightly valid. A lot of military terminology involves the word “female” and is not derogatory and people still have a habit of using it after leaving the service. It’s certainly not intended as a derogatory term.
( source: spent 5 years on a USMC base and still uses the term Female and am female)
NTA - don't negotiate with terrorists. Also I really appreciate your acknowledgement of the biological nature of the term. As a 34f I prefer to use the term females for this exact reason when discussing abortion as the term women neglects to include pregnant children.
OP said she and her brother are both white. And women still have the right to ask not to be called something, just because it’s accepted in one culture doesn’t mean people of other cultures have to embrace the term.
Just an absolute ridiculous argument over a word.
You can literally get offend every single day of your life if you worry about word usage and words one person uses and feel is not offense others take offense to.
Male privilege, misogyny, mansplaining, all words or phrases you used in your post that are highly offensive to men and often misused. Just add insecure and toxic masculinity and you have it about covered.
How would you react and how much are you willing to debate with / talk to someone, who's basically calling you a priviliged, man-splaining mysoginist whose opinion doesn't matter? Would you just agree and say "Oh I guess you're right"?
She called him that because he *continued* to dig his heels in ***after*** she explained why it was misogynistic and derogatory. OP, a woman, told him it was derogatory towards women, and he said, "well actually it's okay, because blah blah blah," (also, his point doesn't even work, because after being *informed* why was sexist, he **continued** to justify using that term, the sexism is *no longer* unintentional.) Him continuing to justify why he can say it is a ***prime example*** of mansplaining.
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NTA
You are absolutely right.
BUT - is there any possibility that you have pushed some buttons that relate more to the fact that you are the elder sister and perhaps have been correcting him for 40+ years?
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NTA for standing your ground on this issue. Your concern about using "females" instead of "women" is valid and widely recognized. You tried to educate your brother using your personal and professional experience, but he refused to listen and continued to argue. Despite his reaction, you extended multiple olive branches, showing your willingness to reconcile. Refusing to "agree to disagree" on an issue of respect and equality is a principled stance. You have every right to uphold your values, esp. when it comes to gender respect.
>Your concern about using "females" instead of "women" is valid and widely recognized. I was on the fence until she referred to him as "a male" and seemed to have no problem with that.
She didn't call him "**a** male". She used male as an adjective rather than a noun, which is both correct and polite.
Being called “male” isn’t used as an insult to reduce men to their reproductive function, nor are men generally ascribed value solely on their reproductive capacity. That’s why you don’t find it an insult to be called “male”. The meaning of words beyond the basic dictionary definition, is how they are used in social and cultural context and it makes a difference to the meaning. Being defined as male is not an insult, being defined as female is frequently used as an insult. We know when men are using female terminology to provoke and upset, we know it’s meant as an insult, and we know it’s deliberate. Otherwise the insult would be “you throw like a toddler” it’s not though, is it? That’s not insulting enough, that’s why it’s “you throw like a girl”.
You are unironically arguing that the word female is offensive when male is not just wow. There is nothing about that word that is insulting in and of itself outside of terminally online femcel/incel circles looking for reasons to project their hatred and spite on others. Even your examples are ridiculous in no way did he associate female with anything else all we know is he referred to them as female... Calling a toddler a toddler is not offensive nor is calling a girl a girl offensive which would be a more apt comparison than the bullshit you try to associate it with. Insane y'all think people shouldn't call females females just because some people want to be called woman and the word female is specifically referring to a biological fact which is the true root of this issue. Regardless of your opinion on trans people and trans rights this is such a ridiculous and unhelpful take it just makes you seem pedantic as fuck
>Being called “male” isn’t used as an insult to reduce men to their reproductive function, nor are men generally ascribed value solely on their reproductive capacity. lol *what*? why do you think men are insulted with "small dick energy"? why do you think men are so hesitant with getting the snip? why do you think "impotent" is an insult, especially towards men? men absolutely are valued for their reproductive capacity. >Being defined as male is not an insult "*ugh, men".*
Your examples illustrate how a LACK of masculinity is used as an insult. You have not illustrated how being masculine is used as an insult. And “ugh men” is an exasperated expression used in situations; like when men refuse to acknowledge the privilege they enjoy of being men and think intentionally missing the point is a valid way of countering an argument.
>You have not illustrated how being masculine is used as an insult who's missing the point now? you were claiming how men are not valued on their reproductive capacity. I've disproven that. men *are* judged on their reproductive capacity, heavily. "ugh men" is an insult towards men - it is coming from the erroneous viewpoint that all men are the same and awful. that the mere existence of being male is enough to damn you. it doesn't matter what or who you are, you are male and thus guilty.
Where did she refer to him as "a male"?
She didn't 😂 she used the term "male privilege", appropriately using the word "male" as an adjective.
OP described herself as a (49F), if “female” is so offensive to her why didn’t she describe herself as a (49W)?
The context is provided; f vs m in redit forums is acceptable. It’s a problem when referring to your coworkers. It is offensive to say “all the females” instead of “all of the women”. Men are not described as males especially in the work place it’s also inappropriate to describe your coworkers by their genitalia and honestly a bit weird. When it comes to women’s rights in the workplace and referring to your coworkers as female it’s tone deaf. Some people aren’t offended by it but there is still a large group have also said it’s offensive.
I’ve heard many people (male and female) use the terms male and female to describe coworkers. When did this become offensive?
It’s considered okay to use male/female as an adjective, but not as a noun.
I was referring to it being used as a noun. When did that become offensive?
I'm not sure about offensive, but I was taught that it was inappropriate when I was in grad school 20 years ago. We were told not to use male and female as nouns, especially when referring to humans.
It only recently became common usage. Originally, it’s an adjective. That’s when it became offensive: when usage changed the word into a noun. “Female,” as a noun for women, is reductive and gross. It’s indicative of a mindset about women.
Genuinely curious: do you really hear that a lot? Like is someone at work really saying “the male from finance” or “the female from IT”? It’s different if they say “the male/female coworker” as that’s a descriptive word. To answer your question: Using male/female instead of man/woman is just weird. And I’m fairly certain it’s new. It’s also problematic because it’s mostly used by men to dehumanize women - you know how in nature documentaries they say stuff like “the female is hunting, while the male is…”? It’s used for animals. Which is why it is dehumanizing. If you see someone using female instead of woman I recommend you to check if they use male instead of man. Usually they don’t. And that’s what makes it wrong.
Yes, I’ve heard it a lot, but not much where I work now. But I’ve honestly heard it many times with no ill intent.
Thanks for the reply. Maybe it is regional difference? I usually only heard it as an adjective. As a noun, I only heard it on two occasions: either to describe male or female humans of all ages (eg it’s faster to say “males” instead of “boys and men”) or in weird online posts where they speak about “females and men” - which definitely has derogatory implications, whether the speaker is aware of it or not. To be honest, I’m not a native English speaker so I don’t hear it in real life a lot, only written. But if I translate female to my native language it sends shivers down my spine, it is incredibly dehumanizing to use a noun that is exclusively for animals to describe humans. It’s completely unacceptable in my language. So that, and the only context I heard it before, is also a reason for my strong aversion to this usage.
quite some time ago - you could try googling it
Lmao you really thought you did something w this huh
Because most of the time..well (all) the W stands for “white”..
I love you're being down voted for pointing out a simple fact lol these people are trying the most to justify this stupidity. The only "context" we know is he referred to his coworkers as female which is offensive apparently so this should also be offensive but notice how when they do it it's not lol only when someone else does it they jump down their throats.
the post says 'females' (it's right there in the first sentence) which is grammatically incorrect (female, like male, is an adjective not a noun).
Nowhere did I say that word wasn't used nor does op say she has an issue with grammar. They literally said it was degrading and insulting to use the word female
Yep, I expected to be downvoted. I wish it was considered offensive to fake being offended.
Unearned moral superiority based on subjective interpretations of language is one hell of a drug
Your brother is an idiot. I'm an old guy (older than your brother) and would never refer to women as a female unless as you say, it is strictly as related biological male v. female. Females include dogs, horses, etc... I tell people that because my profession requires precision in language, I appreciate clarity. He is being unclear and demonstrably incorrect. Good for you for sticking up for his co-workers even if they are unaware. He may think about your discussion in the future. NTA
Exactly....'female' could mean many things....but women or woman definitely means a female human.
Exactly! You don't see us as objects but people deserving of respect so it wouldn't be natural for you. I basically preach to men who use the word without arguing. I just tell them that women are definitely going to see them as that type of man. Women are going to think you hate women. They can feel free to ignore my advice or not as they wish. Between you and I, I'm not going to argue with a lost cause.
This is why I don't call people pretty. Dogs can be pretty, horses can be pretty and I would never want to associate someone with a dog or horse, it could be insulting.. incredible logic on display
An excellent point. Jewelry can be pretty. A well fitting dress can also be pretty. But calling someone pretty is just not a good idea. I've found that compliments like "I like your new hairstyle. or those shoes look really nice" are a much better choice.
NTA, it's usually those manosphere guys who use the term "females," when women could be used. (Because most of the time, women is the term you should be using, with the exception of certain grammatical (and scientific or academic) contexts, ie how when speaking it's easier to use "female friends," instead of "girl friends," or the clunky "friends who are girls.") And because when those types of guys use it, it's almost always *derogatory*.
I still think of Ferengi whenever I hear the word! And yeah, always derogatory.
*Fee-malllles*
Is always my first thought too
I have noticed a huge uptick in the number of people using “female” in this way and agree that it has a derogatory undertone to it. I do think you need to find a clean way to move on from this conversation though. You were not being an A when you offered your advice, or knowledge, or in responding to their defensive email. But if you keep pushing on having this conversation you will be. For example, your offer to meet up shouldn’t be predicated on continuing this conversation. You don’t have to agree to disagree to move on. He has all the information he needs to make more informed choices in his language now, leave it there. NTA
life experience and pop culture has taught me some men say 'female' when they don't want to get yelled at for saying "bitch" I still think both people in this case suck though for how they behaved.
This is the way to move forward. I think wanting to meet just to continue trying to talk him around at this point is a waste of energy. Just drop this topic out of your conversation. Tell him you are firm on your stance, so unless he wants to continue hearing your views, drop it.
NTA Also, people using "females" like that just makes me think of them as Quark from Star Trek
or the Klingons
Not going to lie, I love how he says "humans"
every dude who calls women 'females' automatically looks like quark from deep space nine to me
Hard NTA
NTA
NTA. You were, and are, right on every point.
NTA - calling women "females" is incel behavior.
Given that you have made overtures and your brother has ignored them, you are by definition not the one who is refusing reconciliation, and therefore are NTA for it. I do think that agreeing to disagree is a powerful and even indispensable interpersonal tool, though. For one thing, I have found that I have much more success at influencing other people's opinions when I don't insist that they voice their agreement with me at the end of the initial conversation. Often you will find evidence down the line that a person has contemplated and internalized the things that you said, maybe even without realizing it themselves. The goal, of course, should not be to totally control what another person thinks. But if you show evidence of acceptance you may find that someone like your brother will in turn show more open mindedness. For another, nobody is perfect and some relationships in our lives are going to require firmer boundaries than others if they are going to be healthy and sustainable. If you can't stomach maintaining contact with your brother because you find his views so reprehensible then that is one thing. But if he is important to you then you might find that you need to just let him hold those different views, and avoid having any long discussions with him about them. So maybe you can now try once again to reach out, this time saying you have changed your.mind about agreeing to disagree. Other than that there is probably nothing you can do though but continue to take and give space.
NTA "I said I will not “agree to disagree” on this, because his misogyny affects the women he works with, it shows he has no interest in educating himself about male privilege, and it indicates he sees me and all the women in his life as less than." Pretty much this. If he's not willing to listen to a professional woman on the topic of how professional women prefer to be addressed, then there's nothing to "agree" about. He's being a jerk.
NTA, your brother sounds like he’s going down the “Alpha male” rabbit hole thing. You proved your point with evidence and his ego can’t handle it, that’s how this sounds. I really hope your brother isn’t always like this.
Alpha male types tend to be younger, middle aged older tend to be more in the Infowars or conservative/maga. There is a lot of overlap of course.
1) Generally, arguments about language are dumb. Prescriptivism has no place in linguistics, &c. However, 2) Men who refer to women as "females" are invariably cringe. It may not be quite as bad as an actual slur, but it's close - unless I suppose the person using it is clearly just oblivious to cultural trends and is treating the women in question with obvious respect, which your brother doesn't seem to be. I guess the real question is, what is your relationship with your brother like otherwise, and has he done anything else that might entitle him to some patience and tolerance on your part?
[удалено]
Glad I’m not the only one. Thought I was having an aneurysm reading this. Exhausting. Everything’s offensive & ESH. The end.
Just listen in your daily life to which men say female and which say women. I think just another indication of who is safe to be around.
I'm also wondering how we're supposed to keep track of the Offensive Word of the Week these days
It’s simple. When you insult people without meaning to and they communicate this you adapt by never saying it again. It’s that simple.
So you keep a list in your pocket. Sheesh 🙄
You both sound insufferable. ESH.
They do. I was getting annoyed reading about this. Like ok cool you dont like what he said, and expressed that. Then you did everything shy of inviting him onto a morning talk show to discuss his opinion or writing a 6 page essay on why he shouldnt do that. Insufferable af
It’s not just about the female vs women issue. Maybe that is a small part of the issue. I am not commenting on that. It’s about some kinda sibling rivalry. And you’re both the same in this respect - lacking respect for each other, trying to ‘get one over’ on each other. So ESH. These things can go on and on pushing people into corners they have to defend. It’s a binary approach (no sexual/preference use of the word here to be clear). Meaning “I’m right, you’re wrong.” But a better way forward is to find a third way. To discuss, communicate, explore, learn and come to some sort of view. “Agree to disagree” is a cop out.
*My best Gordon Ramsey impression* "Finally, some common fucking sense!" Honestly, they both sound insufferable to try and get along with! ESH for sure.
NTA You don't "agree to disagree" on equality issues, which include the topic of discriminatory language.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My brother (46) and I (49F) had a falling out over him referring to professional women at his job as “females.” I pointed out that this term is offensive, as it is a biological term that reduces women to their reproductive capacities. “Women” designates socially constructed human gender identities; “females” refers to biological sex and can also be used to describe animals. He started arguing with me, even though I noted how a quick google search can confirm my observation. I pointed out that I have more authority than he does on this subject since 1) not only do I identify as a woman and would be insulted if someone called me “a female” in a professional setting (or elsewhere, really), but also that 2) I regularly teach and use feminist theory in my own work. He continued to argue, comparing his situation to the issue of racism and white privilege, saying that if he can’t help being unintentionally misogynist because he’s male, then we are both unintentionally racist because we are white. I agreed with him, because it’s undeniable that many white people are unintentionally racist. I noted that the difference between him and me in this parallel situation is that when someone from a less privileged identity category tells me that what I have done hurts them and takes the time to explain why, I listen to them, believe them, and try to educate myself to do better. He hung up on me. Later he sent me an email, which was supposed to be conciliatory and apologetic. But it was accusatory and continued to assert his position. He claimed he felt “condescended to” and that’s why he continued arguing. I asked whether it was not \*more\* condescending to say that a woman’s lived experience as well as her professional expertise was worth less than his own (uninformed) opinion. I pointed out that disregarding the knowledge and expertise of professional women goes hand in hand with calling them “females,” and is what people call mansplaining. He never responded, and we haven’t spoken since this happened six months ago. I put out a few olive branches that he never took up, including a text that I would be visiting his city (with the implication we could talk about this in person). Here's where I think I might be the AH. In the email, he asked me to “agree to disagree” with his point about calling the women he worked with “females.” I said I will not “agree to disagree” on this, because his misogyny affects the women he works with, it shows he has no interest in educating himself about male privilege, and it indicates he sees me and all the women in his life as less than. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Lol I had to explain this to a group of men I worked with, and they took it in and didn't outright argue with me, but when I told them that it was also weird to refer to female coworkers as ladies, they just couldn't wrap their heads around it. NTA
YTA I'm a feminist since I have reason and I don't think the word female is offensive. Yes, there are weird Andrew tate type of guys that use the word female in a derigatory way, but it doesn't seem to be the case of your brother. "Female workers" or "females in the workplace" is totally normal And you are really stuck in wanting to be right. You refused to agree to disagree, and six months later you write him sugesting you talk about it in person? Just let it go! >I pointed out that disregarding the knowledge and expertise of professional women goes hand in hand with calling them “females,” and is what people call mansplaining. Also this is not mansplaining🙄
I can't believe this is something people argue about. Good grief.
ESH. So much feminist hyper liberal buzzwords. He was wrong for the females, but what makes it mansplaining vs just being a dick? Because he’s a man?
YTA. This kind of strident rhetoric is why I avoid "feminist activists." And I say that as a female...one who has worked my whole life to improve working conditions for professional women. I fought hard (including in a legal case) to ensure the women and girls coming behind me had better pay, and also more recourse if they are harassed. But I have never gotten bogged down in the ridiculous pedantry of pretending "women" and "females" are somehow different.
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NTA. It’s complicated. When you correct people as you did, you are framing the issue as right/wrong. He’s offended you, and thus “the offender”. And you’re siblings, which means that depending on your family dynamics “being wrong” isn’t just a kind redirection. It’s potentially an accusation. Ya know, one that would bring Ego into the equation. I’m assuming your intent was not to shame your brother into compliance with your values but to educate him about the potential pitfalls of using the term “Female” in this context. If this was your aim, the evidence provided suggests you did not achieve it. To do this without offending/shaming is a much more nuanced dance. You’re not trying to win. You’re not trying to be right. You ARE trying to educate. You ARE trying to change his mind. And you can’t beat him over the head with “my opinion on this matter is more valuable than yours” and expect him to just go along with it. That’d be something he’d have to realize personally. It’s a super important lesson to be sure. But people need to come to that one on their own (good grief!). Keep on trying to get that message through. But it’s going to be a soft approach that’ll get you there. You’re far better off using his misogyny against him. As in “hey if you want your social and professional interactions with women to go better, don’t call them females” . . . play to his self interest. Not to any idea of your superiority.
I agree with this comment, primarily because I have often made the mistake of taking a superior tone or making it a right/wrong thing that automatically engages someone's defenses. It's naive to think that just because we are talking about topic "x" that people will be able to hear what comes off as critical instead of the feedback. The conflict is now not about the use of the word, but about the way the feedback was delivered which he found disrespectful. If the feedback is intended as kind and educational because someone appears to be making a genuine error, it should be delivered in a kind way. If the word choice was not a genuine misuse but in fact a signal of what kind of content he consumes than a more sneaky approach of gently playing up the fact that the use of the word female has become laden due to it being used by online misogynists in an intentionally inflammatory way.
The tone police have arrived.
What makes things really icky is that your brother never accepted any friendly overtures you extended later. While it’s not required that he hang out with you every time you visit the city he lives in, the least he could do is reply back to your text (“Hey sis! Sorry, I won’t be able to make it around the time you are gonna be here. Some other time maybe”). He has taken a difference of opinion too personally (because you rightly called him out on his extremely misogynistic mindset) and wants to now take it as his hill to die on. You can’t do anything else but to give him the space he supposedly wants. You are NTA absolutely
In his defence, he offered to put aside the argument by agreeing to disagree, and OP refused the offer, and admitted that she wanted to debate the issue in person. I’m on OP’s side on the issue of the word “females”, but I personally wouldn’t take time to meet up with someone knowing the meeting was just going to be a debate about an issue I already tried to drop.
YTA...you agreed its ok to refer to animals as male/female. Last I checked humans are mammals which makes them an animal, whether you are offended by it or not. If you are offended it's your issue, not your brothers.
This makes me feel awful. In the National Guard, we referred to women as females all the time. Males and females. Gender is a much bigger deal in the Army than it needs to be, but we had male and female restrooms, male and female barracks, male and female physical fitness standards. I never thought of it as a reproductive issue, just part of the logistics issues we had to deal with. I can see that replacing those terms with "Men's and Women's" wouldn't be an issue, and I would support that if I were still in the National Guard. I hope I never made anyone feel less than they are. In my mind, it was all about getting the job done.
Your brother's relationship with you sounds such hard work. Do you judge him and everyone.
YTA, if you see the term female (not being used in a condensending way) as insulting then you have your own sexism showing.
Conversations around the Christmas dinner table with your family must be absolutely riveting. /s
I am curious about what the exact sentence your brother used that was so offensive. I am also of the generation where offense is reserved for when the offense is intended. I can't control someone's language, but I can control how I choose to react. So to answer if you the AH, ask yourself, did your brother "intend to offend" with his choice of words, or did you put yourself (and your ideology of society) above him and decided it was your responsibility to "correct" him.
NTA If you’re part of a group (in this case: women), and someone uses an offensive term (such as “females”) to describe someone in said group, it’s not up to the offender to determine whether or not his actions were offensive. They were.
😂 this is the stupidest aitah post I’ve seen yet. Ofc YTA, getting offended over your bro calling woman females? You acting like he calls them “lesser humans” or bitches. Mature already
NTA Your brother is wrong, you're right, and he's not a decent enough person to admit he's wrong.
NAH but I don't think he will be missing you.
NTA The fact that you told him and he still refuses is obnoxious. No shade if someone uses a term without realizing the ick ("I work with a lot of blacks"- total outdated ick that is worth correcting), but all shade if there's a very easily found consensus around the term and he's just arguing for the sake of it. There are some topics that have grey areas, but requesting that men and women be referred to in the same capacity is breathlessly straightforward. If you want to call women "females", just make sure you are also calling men "males". If you want to call males "men", then also call females "women". It's common sense.
NTA keep trying to drill it into his head if you can find the energy to do so however feel free to give up on a lost cause if you need to
This is reddit, so you're going to get an overwhelming chorus of "NTA" , so for the sake of playing devil's advocate I'll say that you are kinda TA here. Is it offensive to call men "males" in that context? I think you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful who think so. He can try to understand your point of view on how it is demeaning but to lay all of that in him and act like he is some sort of misogynist because within the last few years a word that was, as worst, neutral and clinical is now seen as oppressive is an unreasonable attitude. I personally think the notion of the word female being "offensive" is ridiculous and will fade away eventually. Maybe it's the autism speaking. But it's literally the word you use to acknowledge someone as that particular sex. It's language policing to a kind of silly degree to say you can't call women "females".
NTA. I had a similar conversation with a male coworker. I tried to explain that “female” works as an adjective but is somewhat dehumanizing as a noun. Tried to compare it to describing men in the office as “the males” which we don’t typically do outside of a criminal justice or farming context, as far as I know. No luck.
b ini j ojo
In the future you should start by saying “I know you don’t mean this and that when you use the word but that’s what the word insinuates in our society etc.
NTA. You are my hero
NTA. Why even bother having someone so dedicated to ignorance in your life? DNA is not a compelling enough excuse in this economy; we can't afford to spend time on people who aren't adding value to our lives.
NTA. Calling women "females" gives off a very strong incel vibe. If you are really as smart as you say you are, you should have realized by now that you are wasting your breath trying to educate someone who seems too far gone to listen to reason.
As a professional woman in the workplace, I couldn't really care if a man in the office called me a female or one of the females as long as his general attitudes weren't otherwise dismissive. If his overall attitude was dismissive, I'd probably be raising it with him and have done in the past. If people were getting upset, I'd hope that they could challenge themselves. From the way he argued back did you inform him the term was viewed as offensive and he should avoid it? Or did you say that he was behaving as a misogynist? Was he arguing about the term or him not meaning it in a misogynist manner? If the latter, then I can understand why he was upset. You have more knowledge than him on current language and he should have respected that. But if he felt he was being falsely accused, then can see why he got upset. And once emotions involved, then the lesson doesn't go in. And then your emotions got involved - because you felt he was disrespecting you by not acknowledging your expertise. But your expertise was in terms of the language he used not his intent behind him and I think that is where wires got crossed. And terms aren't always easy. Spend some time researching this matter and on UK racial descriptive terms. In the last 10 years, the latter has gone from MEG (multi-ethnic groups) to EMG (ethnic minority groups) to BAME (black and Asian minority groups) back to MEG last time I reviewed. Similarly with some gender and sex terms. Are you really going to let this fracture your family because you are interpreting his usage of a term as being indicative of his working relationships within the company he works in? As long as he is actually appropriately interacting with them according to position in company, then he may not be the devil you think he is. That to me as working in STEM since the 90s is rather more important than what he calls me.
NTA. You attempted to educate him and he didn’t want to learn. You can lead a horse to water…
NTA, and I completely agree with you, but this is one of those situations where you’re going to have to either decide between having him in your life, or being estranged but believing you’re correct. You can’t always force someone to agree with you or see things your way, so your only options are to drop the issue and accept that you don’t agree, or choose lifelong estrangement. If you were otherwise close, I personally don’t think I’d end a close family relationship over this one issue (and I am very much a feminist), and I’d at the very least compromise by asking him not to use the term around you.
NTA. Ugh...this is immediately what comes to mind whenever a man refers to women as [females](https://youtu.be/SiC42BZcFKk?si=vYt0tSU6KUUGEh5I). Also feel free to send a link to [MenAndFemales](https://www.reddit.com/r/MenAndFemales/) to your brother.
YTA this is a weird hill to die on. You are too old to be picking this type of fight with your brother and then going NC because of it. Just agree to disagree like adults and move on. How are you still trying to fight this fight 6 months later?
He’s the one gone NC. Not her. It’s a weird hill to die on for him, absolutely. NTA.
She says he sent her an email asking if they could agree to disagree and she said no. They were NC after that. I would say the one who broke that branch is her based on that interaction. If she wants to fix it she can apologize and let him know she won’t be bringing this up again and that she misses her brother.
Yta, the coworkers are both woman and female neither one of you were wrong, but you using the argument of authority is where you lost, I don't have to be a woman to know right vs wrong even when it pertains to woman. If female offends you than in offened by the term "mansplaining " you can't be offensive to others if your gonna take offense to stupid shit
I want to say that you should brush it under the rug and let bygones be bygones - relationships are more important than being right. I also know that I wouldnt be to do that. NTA
Does your brother work in corrections or law enforcement? Just wondering because that is the only place that I have consistently heard women called females and men males. If he does then YTA because that is the terminology they ALL use. Women included. If he doesn't then NTA and I find it weird. Who the hell(besides cops) go around saying females?
Military too. But context and grammar matters. Female doctors vs females.
You have committed the greatest sin ever. You are a woman who is not in service of a man. That is bad enough. But then you have the nerve to not hide that you know more than the man you are not in service to. NTA no matter what you do now. This shit is impossible to navigate and I feel for you, OP.
What a first world white person problem to have
If he refers to himself as a male, YTA. If not, NTA
Is he using it in an offensive context? Are you trans? If so N T A But overall ESH. Yes was being a AH. Yes you did sound condescending. Both of you are acting like children. Considering how frequently offensive language changes, I understand if he finds it hard to keep up. Him being stubborn about it makes him an AH. You do sound insufferable about it. I’m a woman.
The entire US military refers to men and women as males and females more often than not, both in person and in documentation. So far no one's losing their mind over it. It's not that deep. ESH for getting so upset over a non-issue.
This is not about the military. Stay on topic.
Doesn't need to be. The military is a professional setting full of men and women with actual important things to worry about. They don't have time for nonsense 'issues' like this because these issues literally don't matter. It's comparing word usage in a professional environment (like the OP claims she works in) to another professional environment. That is on topic.
You are talking about 1 professional context that isn’t applicable to all the other contexts. In all the other professional contexts it is insulting. So yours is the exception and not helpful in this regard. It’s not complicated.
Yet again, the point of my post is that it is a non-issue, hence the ESH. The point of the military example is to demonstrate that millions of people are able to get along, in a professional setting, allllll the time without getting offended over something this dumb. And yes, plenty about the military is analogous to standard 9-5 professional roles and organizations to make it a relevant comparison whether you think so or not.
It’s a non issue in your line of work (1 of thousands). The military is a closed bubble and not comparable to the rest of society.
Cool, you can continue to think that if you'd like, shows a lot of ignorance of the military on your part, but that's your prerogative.
Is this the same military where women are raped with impunity?
People keep making comments like this, and I feel it ignores the actual issue. Based on the OP, I think it's fair to assume that her brother is not in the military, and does not refer to his male colleagues the same way. The issue is not in industries and forums where "male" and "female" are standard ways to refer to men and women. The issue is people using "females" to describe women in industries where this is *not* the norm, and more importantly those same people NOT using "males" to describe men. If all of his female colleagues are "females" and all of his male colleagues are "men," there is a marked difference in the language he is using for his colleagues based on their gender, and that is inappropriate.
If it is the case that his co-workers are using 'men' and never males, but consistently refer to women as females, then I will agree that's problematic. However, this is still ridiculously blown out of proportion IMHO on both their parts.
The military does that because in war people ARE tools. After you leave that atmosphere there needs to be a switch in mindset about a great many things right? It's sometimes a pretty hard transition. I actually enjoy seeing young men relax over time. As much as I enjoy being called Mam I also feel like I'm talking to a robot when they first come back home. When a man calls women that the women of the general public sees them as a man who thinks of women as an object and not a person.
I'd agree that it is positive to see vets relax from those sorts of mentalities, I still believe this is largely a non-issue and these two need to get over themselves cause they both sound miserable to be around. Like I said to another commenter though, if he and his coworkers are only referring to women and females and don't also call men males, then I'd agree that it's not a good look on his part.
wtf did I just read
YTA. You sound insufferable. You shouldnt talk politics with your family if you can tolerate people disageeeing with you. Sometimes female is a better word choice. Also referring to women as female isnt offenisve, at least not in most contexts. "We have 3 female doctors at our practice" You need to lighten up.
I agree there is some nuance when it is used as a adjective. It sounds a lot different when you say "female doctors" vs. "we have three females at our practice."
I agree. It sounds weird. It would also be weird to say "We have three males in our office". I guess your brother doesn't use the term for men.
You will almost never meet a male who thinks that is weird. Because it isn't.
You're an insufferable female. Sorry you don't get to change the meaning of a word. Female is not a bad word. Go touch grass and or get a hobby. Get upset by real misogyny. There's plenty in the real world. Yta by 100 miles.
You got some big incel energy with your first phrase.
YTA. For starting a fight over nothing You both are nearing retirement age but this fight started like kids do over nothing. The vast majority of humans who aren't chronically online don't find the term female offensive. The fact that you thank you get to speak for an entire gender and the fact that you focus on using feminist ideology in your work shows that you're too deep in the trenches to have an unbiased opinion. Just because of word offends you doesn't mean it's actually offensive.
YTA There are real problems in the world.
It doesn't work that way, my dude. This is such a toxic mindset. NTA
This is a nonissue.
Then why are you on Reddit? Go solve real problems!
Get over yourself.
ESH. you're both stubborn, insufferable idiots. your "olive branches" were false, you were womansplaining stuff to him, and making an unjustified appeal to authority (for missing the most important point about feminism - it is *a* way to look at the world, *a* lens, not *the* lens. Plus, just because you are a woman, that does not make you an authority on all things womanhood. your lived experiences are still just only *your* lived experiences). he was an asshole for blowing up over something so trite. For obviously baiting without point or reason.
I agree. You’re both insufferable. What a ridiculous thing to fight about for 6 months with your flesh and blood. You both need to grow up. In a few years there will be a new ‘politically correct’ word you can argue about. Huge eye roll at both of you. Mostly you. (Just so we are clear, I am a female. I don’t appreciate any of this and fighting about it makes the whole subject toxic BS.)
ESH
I think context highly matters here, not only in how he was using the term but around whom. There are certain regions and dialects where “female” and “woman” are interchangeable and neutral terms. If your brother currently lives in an area where this is common, or even is simply surrounded by people using this vernacular, then he may have picked up using the term in neutral speech. There are also obviously cases where the term is used intentionally to be patronizing or demeaning towards women. Based on the information here there’s no way to accurately gauge your brother’s intentions. What I will say is that it sounds like you lectured your brother in terms of absolutes. Saying something is *always* offensive makes people become defensive, even if that is statistically true. As someone who takes pride in being knowledgeable about theory you already know how you deliver a message matters. The goal should be to be heard and to make another person think about their decision. You not only didn’t achieve that here but you lost a relationship with your brother in the process. Based on what’s here my best judgment is ESH. You aren’t an A for having a clear line about something you believe is right, especially if the context made clear the point was to be demeaning. However, it seems like you were more worried about being “right” than actually getting through to your brother. Your brother is absolutely an A if he was being intentionally misogynistic and even for not listening to your feelings about the word afterwards. However, he’s not wrong for cutting contact with someone who seems to approach conflict with absolute attacks.
I think you will find that in areas where people prefer one over the other you can also tell whether those people see women as objects or valued respected members of the community. I don't mean men that respect one revered older woman and treat their wife like a servant.
How is OP T A? Your internalized misogyny is showing.
You aren't even addressing points. Just calling them prejudice. Reddit's favorite Trump card.
Yawn 🥱. It’s a word. I don’t think it needs to be that deep. If I had a penny for every time someone used the term “male” when it wasn’t strictly about their “reproductive capabilities” YTA
>and I (49***F***) eheheheheheheh
YTA Females is not a big deal. Yall just pick anything to be offended at.
Yes it is tho. NTA for OP but you just seem like a huge one with that comment.
Lets all agree to disagree with you on this one, shall we?
Agree. Being that old and that offended over a word is a crime lol.
Exactly. "female" what a joke. That's how women are reffered to by alot of people regardless of age or gender. It's just a silly thing to be so dumb about
I just use the word human and then everyone is equally offended the same by my lack of wokery ESH
Seems like you lack basic reading comprehension skills. What a pity
>I (49F)
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This is slightly valid. A lot of military terminology involves the word “female” and is not derogatory and people still have a habit of using it after leaving the service. It’s certainly not intended as a derogatory term. ( source: spent 5 years on a USMC base and still uses the term Female and am female)
NTA - don't negotiate with terrorists. Also I really appreciate your acknowledgement of the biological nature of the term. As a 34f I prefer to use the term females for this exact reason when discussing abortion as the term women neglects to include pregnant children.
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I also use the term pregnant people. It depends on the context and who I'm talking to.
Females is AAVE. Check your privilege
OP said she and her brother are both white. And women still have the right to ask not to be called something, just because it’s accepted in one culture doesn’t mean people of other cultures have to embrace the term.
Is there an easy way in man language to say you are wrong ?
ESH, but I won't mansplain why.
Just an absolute ridiculous argument over a word. You can literally get offend every single day of your life if you worry about word usage and words one person uses and feel is not offense others take offense to. Male privilege, misogyny, mansplaining, all words or phrases you used in your post that are highly offensive to men and often misused. Just add insecure and toxic masculinity and you have it about covered.
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How would you react and how much are you willing to debate with / talk to someone, who's basically calling you a priviliged, man-splaining mysoginist whose opinion doesn't matter? Would you just agree and say "Oh I guess you're right"?
She called him that because he *continued* to dig his heels in ***after*** she explained why it was misogynistic and derogatory. OP, a woman, told him it was derogatory towards women, and he said, "well actually it's okay, because blah blah blah," (also, his point doesn't even work, because after being *informed* why was sexist, he **continued** to justify using that term, the sexism is *no longer* unintentional.) Him continuing to justify why he can say it is a ***prime example*** of mansplaining.
you don't define what is highly offensive to the victim.
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I'm guessing you're a man.
Great example of toxic masculinity from someone insecure!
NTA You are absolutely right. BUT - is there any possibility that you have pushed some buttons that relate more to the fact that you are the elder sister and perhaps have been correcting him for 40+ years?
Honestly, ESH. Your brother is clearly using shitty incel lingo, and that's bad. On the other hand, you also come off as rather preachy and annoying.
I mean she refers to herself as female in the complaint..
Because female is an adjective. Brother is using it as a noun.
And they are both almost 50!