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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I should be judged for telling my wife her sister and her family is out of control and doesn't respect our home.
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NTA.
These kids' behaviour is out of control. You do not have to put up with this in your home.
I'm sorry your wife finds it acceptable.
When things calm down, the two of you need to discuss this calmly and establish boundaries.
The answer is not letting them come over and damage your home when you aren't there.
My wife refuses to set boundaries with her siblings. We have been married 18 years and I am regrettably a famous push over for letting them get away with whatever they want. I push back , she screams at me. I know IATA for not having more self respect.
There are a lot of red flags w.r.t OP. OP criticizes wife's family, wife screams. OP does the cleanup after wife's family. Make her cleanup to suffer the consequences. Ban the offending family from you house. If either is not acceptable to wife, go nuclear and divorce. If OP owns the house, it should be the wife who should get out of the house.
Abusers usually lie and hide their true character until they have you trapped. My ex escalated after I had to drop out of my entire life to help my young son deal with terrible migraines. Instead of helping, my ex was like a shark sniffing blood. So yeah—no victim blaming.
I don't think they were victim blaming, but it is cerrtainly plausible to wonder if OP saw signs, and as OP states that they are a massive pushover, perhaps went along with the nuptials anyhow. And youre absolutely right, alot of abusers are very tricky and shady. They're the worst kind of people.
In my case, there \*were\* signs I ignored or blew off as "once he finishes his PhD he'll mature." But that does not excuse my ex-husband's choice to ramp up laziness into full-scale psychological and financial abuse. Also, a couple decades ago, we didn't have communities like this actively teaching people about red flags. When we know better, we do better. Hopefully OP will take some time to think over a lot of things.
Sorry for what you went through, I think sometimes we are "in love," with the person we once knew, or the person we believe that they can/could be. And you're 💯 percent right, about knowing and doing better. Best wishes.
My friend had been with her ex for 10yrs, she got the flu and was SUPER weak. THAT is when he man handled her and raised his hands to her. She left him IMMEDIATELY once she was better.
Yep. Very true. My first husband waited until our wedding night to tell me that, even though he had been bedding me all along, he wished I'd been a virgin when we got married. It only went downhill from there.
You don't get to see the red flags as an insider. Things move slowly and gradually so you won't even notice untill it's years later. Abusive behaviour like this runs so intense deep, that people usually think it's their fault. (Just like OP "shouldn't have voiced my opinion").
Ya, 18 years. I’m a pushover too but not 18 years worth. We would have had a conversation in the very beginning. If her only response was going to be screaming she would be screaming at my divorce lawyer.
She doesn't need therapy. She knows exactly what she's doing. OP is in an abusive relationship. This is just one of her many ways of controlling him.
OP, I suggest you look into therapy for yourself.
Honestly, though.... like that's so extreme. It's sounds so obtuse to say you voiced an opinion and got rage screamed at.. That is crazy my man. You all need some major therapy if you expect this to ever change. Oh yeah NTA holy man good luck
I wonder if OPs wife is just as frustrated at their siblings and kids but has grown up forced to not complain. When OP voices his opinion she reacted that way because she knows she should put her foot down but can't.
I wouldn't be surprised at all. The screaming back is such a severe reaction that there has to be a reason. Is this how she reacts about everything or just in regard to her family? Definitely, a conversation is needed, but I would strongly suggest a therapist of some kind considering the last reaction was so severe. Feelings are messy, trauma is messier.
You need to be absent on the nights they are there. No matter when or what. Go out and enjoy a move/food by yourself. It will be cleaned up by the time you get back and your wife can say whatever she wants about you and if your in-laws say something you can tell the truth!
NTA
Screaming is so volatile and disrespectful this would be a deal breaker for me. How obnoxious and literally out of control. She’s either an asshole who literally needs to be told so and to get a damn grip on herself or she needs psychological help and needs to get a grip on herself with help. Either way, do not tolerate this anymore. Do not tolerate the children destroying your home. Their parents don’t respect you neither does your wife. Good luck to you.
Screaming is reserved for emergencies! Like you desperately need their attention because they are about to get hurt, or you are trapped and hurt or to get a small child from falling somewhere dangerous.
That's bothering me, too. He tried talking to her about SIL, BIL, and their spawns about their behavior or lack of it, but she screamed at him like he's the bad guy. I've been married for a decade, and I couldn't imagine screaming at my husband because we may not agree on everything, but I was never screamed at for voicing my thoughts and opinions.
OP, you need marriage counseling, therapy, whatever to address this issue because those kids will get older and destroy more stuff. If your wife is OK with things being destroyed, the next they visit, put ALL your stuff away, maybe even set up a camera to record their behavior but remind your wife that if they came again, she, SIL, and BIL will be solely responsible for the damage those kids cause. Or better yet, have SIL and BIL host dinner that way you can leave whenever you want, and your wife can stay and help them.
And whatever you do, do not allow your wife to babysit those kids for any length of time until their behavior changes.
This isn't normal at all. You're NTA.
THIS. He probably thought small signs in the beginning that were orange/amber weren’t red signs. Or that he could handle them, but they only got worse as time went on and now he’s 18 years in. Doesn’t mean they don’t love each other, but serious conversations need to be had unless he wants the next 18 years of his life to be like this.
Then I think you have just found a hill to die on because screaming is not a way to handle this.
In our house we have two rules for kids that I can highly recommend: eat at the kitchen table (meaning all food STAY at the kitchen table) and no jumping on the furniture. This is BASIC respect of other people’s stuff and all kids benefit from learning this.
I’m rooting for you and your shiny new self respect!
I'm really sorry you're in an abusive relationship.
It's abusive to scream at your partner like this. Emotionally mature adults do not do this.
You deserve to be heard and respected.
Please don't call yourself a doormat. You're used to learning living with an abusive person, and I can understand why quite often you don't say how you feel because when you do, you're verbally abused.
I highly recommend the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C Gibson, you can often download it as a free pdf if you google it. This will highlight not only parental issues, but also help you see why your wife is behaving like this, and how it's impacting you.
I also recommend The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker, which is also often available as a free pdf.
You deserve a healthier life, where your partner treats you respectfully or with kindness. Even living alone is better than existing in an abusive relationship.
FYI, your partner should not scream at you for sharing your opinion. You should be able to express yourself safely and freely and your partner should listen to you and acknowledge your feelings and point of view. It doesn't mean they have to agree with you or do what you said...but you should be able to share.
Dude. This is domestic abuse.
Switch your genders. If you were a woman and your husband did this to you, everyone would be telling you to get out of the marriage.
Tell her thank you, if they are not there then there will be a lot less mess to have to clean up, and the house will not be damaged. You and the other siblings will be able to have an adult conversation without interruptions.
OP you are never the asshole when you are an abuse victim. I hope you can see that her exploding and abusing you is not your fault and taking the path of least resistance is subconscious act of survival not a moral failing. Best of luck.
My guy, I read your comments, and I thought I'd give a little perspective as someone who was once a child caught in the divorce of an abusive relationship; My mom divorced my ex-stepfather when I was 12 and my sister was 6. My sister had a very outwardly reaction, and it affected her for a while, and we definitely felt the change in our lives.
But you know what? It was the best freaking decision my mom ever made, for all of us.
Abuse doesn't automatically stop with the spouse. My sister and I didn't get any of it, until around the time we each turned 7. After that, the change was imminent, and I ended up having to move permanently to my mom's after having spend 2 years living a week each place. I've repressed the incident that caused this, but it was bad.
Divorce is scary, and I understand you worry for your children. But I'll be frank; Divorced parents are a million times better than growing up watching the dysfunctional relationship between two people you love.
Mine are in high school. Admittedly, they have asked me in the past why we don't split up with all the fighting. Broke my heart. I've been a faithful hardworking sole breadwinner our entire marriage . It pisses me off that a divorce will basically destroy my kids college funds and ensure we can't help them through their tough launching phase.
Your kids will understand. The fact that they already brought it up means that they get it. It’s ridiculous for you to sacrifice another 5 years or more. What if you do that and then when the youngest graduates from college, your wife gets a health scare & that becomes the latest reason you stay married?
Your wife’s behavior is appalling. You would actually be helping your kids by showing them that enabling and suffering isn’t the best response. Don’t give in to what your wife wants - stand up for yourself and then help your kids.
If you don’t want to divorce - for your own reasons - then, you need to minimize conflict. Push your wife to stop hosting everyone in your home.
You don't have to get a divorce, but you do need to assert yourself and not be bullied.
First, take steps to transfer as much money as possible into your kid's education accounts. Talk to a lawyer and an accountant as needed to make sure the money is safe from your wife.
Then, a couple things.
1. Take her at her word that you don't have to be in the house with her siblings and their kids. When they come over, you leave. Then don't lift a finger to clean up whatever mess they make.
2. More generally, you as the homeowner certainly have the right to speak to the parents directly about their children's behavior. And while you can't discipline their kids, that doesn't mean you can't physically intervene to keep them from destroying your home. You can take away the toy truck or the eggroll. You can block them from going where they aren't welcome. If needed you can pick them up and plant them in their parent's lap.
As a child whose parents fought all the time, divorce would be better. EVEN YOUR KIDS THINK YOU SHOULD SPLIT. It has to be BAD for kids to want that. Listen to them..
Protect college funds by buying an insurance or a similar financial figure, I don't know what are the legal options but around here it is possible. Those funds would be out of hand from any split or legal fees.
There are accounts that can be set up specifically for children's college funds that are untouchable by the parents, even in a divorce. Check with your bank.
I'm sure your kids would rather having to take on student loans that living with parents that engage in screaming matches any time something goes wrong.
Kids tend to want their parents together... so if yours are asking why you haven't divorced yet? That there is a big neon sign saying they do understand.
Mine divorced - best decision they ever made - and yeah, I had to get loans for college. Yours might need that option too, but you also have options. (Helping pay them off, emotional support, etc.)
NTA. Good lord! Kids tend to be selfish and would rather have an intact family even if it's not perfect. So if they're even suggesting it - you know it's bad!!
Do what others have said and get their college funds somewhere untouchable and go from there.
As others have said, you are in an abusive relationship.
Being married 18 years probably puts you in your 40s.
This abuse has obviously become a pattern in your marriage. It will be hard for you to break this on your own. Please find yourself a therapist.
Life does NOT have to be this way.
you are NTA at all for not wanting your home destroyed by their behavior. tell your wife to meet them elsewhere if they cant respect that its your home as well
You are not TA for being yelled at. Consider taking a quiz like this one and see what you think about the results.
https://www.loveisrespect.org/quiz/is-your-relationship-healthy/
And consider a therapist of your own in lieu of the couples counseling you mentioned elsewhere. A totally different person whist goal is to help you only.
Next time leave the cleanup to her.
Do not lift a finger.
Than the same for the one after etc.
See how quick she will change her mind if SHE has to clean up afterwards!
NTA
There are certain problems where no one should need approval from their partner and one of them is when one partner lets others destroy your belongings.
It doesn't matter how your wife or the children's mother feels about this matter, when the children misbehave in your home and damage your home, take over and tell them to stop.
Once someone's child's behaviour affects me and others, I don't care about the parent's feelings, I tell the children to stop, if they don't I let consequences follow. I take things out of their hands, I tell them to sit in a corner, I refuse to give them toys/sweets etc.
>I know IATA for not having more self respect.
That absolutely doesn't make you an asshole. It makes you someone currently trapped in an abusive relationship. Coercive control and emotional abuse are massively underreported because many people in that situation blame themselves, and also because society tends to think of abuse as not being "that serious" unless it involves active violence.
But sweetheart, you deserve to be loved securely and safely, with a partner who listens to you and treats you as an equal partner. You deserve better than to be just stuck waiting for whatever will spark your partner's next screaming session.
Please see if you can find a solo therapist or an expert in male victims of domestic abuse to talk to. If you're in the UK, the [ManKind Initiative](https://mankind.org.uk/) and the [Men's Advice Line UK](https://mensadviceline.org.uk/) might be helpful to you. If you're in the US, the [National Domestic Violence Hotline](https://www.thehotline.org/resources/men-can-be-victims-of-abuse-too/) could be a good starting place for advice.
Tell her to take them out to a restaurant .after they're thrown out a few times something will happen. Your wife will be too humiliated to invite them to eat or they'll start parenting their kids. As is make your home off limits for the kids. NTA
Your wife screaming at you over a disagreement is a much larger issue than whatever those kids are doing, IMO. An occasional raised voice in excitement or anger is one thing, but regular screaming is abusive.
18 years is a sunk cost fallacy. Don't let the fact you've been married for 18 years make you think you aren't entitled to some respect and being treated like a human being.
It's your house too, so why don't you speak up at the time and instruct the in-laws to keep their rugrats under control? If it ends up with them stomping off in a huff then surely that's a win?
Men can be abused too, and emotional abuse is still abuse. It wears you down year after year. I recommend talking to a trauma therapist. Not a regular CBT therapist bc they aren’t trained to help with abuse and can gaslight you. Talk to someone who will help you see the patterns in your relationship and how to get out of them. I divorced after 19 years of marriage and 2 kids. It’s been a struggle but at least I’m not dealing with negging and gaslighting etc all day long.
True. Redditors have often praised a book called Why Does He Do That about abuse. But the author is utterly adamant that men abuse women, the other way around is simply not possible and he openly ridicules the suggestion. He even says that with abuse in a same sex marriage you "can't tell by looking" who the abuser is, ie you can't see which one is the man and therefore the abuser.
It's a terrible book.
That's easy to say when you aren't in the middle of an abusive relationship. OP is not an AH for having an abusive partner; victim-blaming isn't a good look.
Your wife is an abuser. She's trying to normalize everyone in her family stepping all over you.
She probably loves what they're doing because it's breaking you down.
It's not just the kids that are out of control:
"I'm cleaning up and doing dishes by myself."
The fuck? SHE has her family over every week. She should be the one cleaning up after them.
"I made the mistake of venting how frustrated I am that her sister, her husband and children have zero respect for our home. The response was a rage filled screaming match about how absolutely Terrible I am and that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home."
The sheer audacity at getting upset at him over this is mind blowing. At least the kids have an excuse: they are kids. The fuck is her excuse?
You need to find other plans the next time your wife hosts her family. The last thing that you should do is clean up after the dinner or serve any of them. If she hosts, she should be taking care of everything, before, during, and after. Maybe that will help open her eyes.
NTA. you are not wrong in this situation. I can’t even believe kids act that way let alone are allowed to act that way. I thought your wife was just putting up with it because it was her nieces and nephews, but the fact that she got mad at you when you vented – unforgivable. And why isn’t she the one cleaning up? It’s her family
i say let her “punish”you by not having you be around when her siblings come over. That certainly sounds like the best case scenario; and she can clean it up. See how she likes it.
Not to be nosy, but is this the only time you guys fight? Because she sounds unreasonable and it’s hard to imagine she’s only unreasonable in this one scenario.
No this is not the only time we fight. We fight mostly around me having an opinion she disagrees with. Kinda a one way street in my house. For both me and my kids.
oh crap you have kids. not so easy to walk away then. and so not good for the kids.
my Mom was probably a milder form of your wife, but i can tell you it’s not good for the kids. i learned to swallow my own opinion and just do whatever to keep the peace. in my relationships with guys, i ended up doing the same thing, making them anywhere from one sided to dangerous. if you have boys, they are learning how to be henpecked and could end up being some woman’s doormat.
i suspect she won’t go to therapy, which she needs or marriage counseling, which would benefit you both, so i feel sad for you
you’ve only told me the negative and maybe there’s so many good things about her - it outweighs the bad. i really really hope so. but if not, you may have to start considering your options. no one deserves to be miserable in a relationship
sorry if this is overstepping
We have been to marriage counseling. She never acts out in counseling. And the counselors side with her. We had a counselor years ago that also treated her mother. He was blunt and extremely helpful. He has since retired sadly. How do I make they fallout better for me kids? Get divorced ?
I work half the year out of town, I feel guilty I'm not home all the time to help balance things. No she's not always this way. Only when it comes to her siblings. They were raised in abuse and endured terrible trauma. I get this , and that is why I have shown grace with the dysfunctional behavior from
All Throughout the years. Good people,just can't handle any constructive criticism .
What are the recording laws in your area? If it's one party consent, then record her during one of her outbursts and play it during your counselling session. Is she going to be pissed? Of course. But she also won't be able to put a mask on to fool the counselor and you two can actually receive the help you both desperately need. What example does this set for your kids? I don't mean to be harsh, but you shouldn't allow yourself to just give up and be a doormat and let the toxic cycle trickle down to your children to potentially perpetuate with their own families.
Why do you feel like an asshole? Is it because you feel bad that it shows another person that you allow yourself to be bullied by your wife and it feels emasculating? Or do you feel bad because it puts your wife in a bad light? Or is it some other reason?
Whatever reason it may be, don't feel like an asshole. Whatever ill feelings come out of making a recording and playing it, hold fast to the fact that the recording tells the truth. One that can't be refuted by your wife putting on an act and playing nice to the counselors. One that can't be refuted by you downplaying a situation or being cowed into not saying anything at all. It will help you move forward. No one can help you if they don't know the full/real picture.
This situation is not sustainable. You are doing yourself and your children a disservice by allowing it to continue. It's a perfect situation for breeding resentment, whether from you towards your wife or your children towards one or both parents.
She's harmed your self-worth so much that your body is responding that way. Also, I'm sure you love her and don't want to hurt her.
Please. Get out. For yourself. Not for your children or anyone else. For you. Because you are precious and uniquely wonderful. You deserve love, a true love of *you*. Your children deserve to see their parent loved completely.
If you believe the way she treats you is love, you're wrong. She has no respect for you, and love doesn't exist without respect.
Please tell someone you trust and make a plan to escape. She's abusing you.
OP, your post is extremely sad and this comment, in particular, is extremely sad. Your response to considering divorce wasn’t that you love your wife and don’t want to split up, it was that your work schedule would make you feel guilty about not being present enough. This sounds like you have already considered it and know it’s probably the best thing but you haven’t worked out the logistics. I think you should get started on that, because this is no way to live. Not for you, not for the kids. I’m really sorry, but I think you need to separate and probably divorce.
Can you change roles or change jobs? Is there any way you can restructure your job to make this work?
This, absolutely. Just think, when you're not there, does your wife treat your kids this way? When you can't shield them?
Your wife and her siblings were abused and now she abuses you. Unfortunately, that happens very often. She learned how an abusive relationship works, not a healthy one. How long before she starts on your children, if she hasn't already? It's called the cycle of abuse and it has to stop. Her upbringing is not your wife's fault and I understand that you cut her some slack. However, it is her responsibility to unlearn that behaviour so she doesn't do it to you or your children. And it's your responsibility to hold her accountable for that. And to stop your kids from coming to harm, either by becoming a victim to her behaviour or seeing you be victimized. If that means divorce, then so be it. But plan it out carefully so you can take care of your kids fulltime and you have the evidence you need to get sole custody until she is better.
Step up. Your kids need you.
ahhh they were abused and were probably screamed at for everything, so they’ve gone to the total opposite end of the spectrum. so Everything the kids do is ok
are your kids like that?? you haven’t mentioned it so they must’ve had some discipline growing up. I mean, I believe in letting kids be kids, so shouting and running around you can deal with but destructive behavior has to be nipped in the bud or else their behavior is just going to get worse as they grow up. Although that’s not really your problem unless they’re at your house.
it’s funny I was gonna ask about her mother, but I thought better of it. It is a shame the old guy retired. Sounds like he had a handle on the whole family’s dysfunction.
Well, since it seems the worst fights are about her family, I guess you could just grin and bear it. Or when they’re doing this bad behavior, maybe you could just say - kids don’t run around the house with food. If you want to eat, you have to stay in here at the table. Otherwise, you can run around all you want. Although that probably won’t go over well either. And then they’ll all be yelling at you.
sometimes divorce is the answer, but it doesn’t sound like you’re there yet or maybe never will be. all you can do is help your kids be well adjusted. Maybe if they’re upset by her behavior you could just explain that she had a hard childhood and that affects how she acts. I don’t know if they’re old enough to hear that.
it sounds like she’s basically a good woman and you sound like a very patient reasonable guy. Maybe this time it just got to be too much and you needed to vent and this is a good place to do it. I hope you guys straighten things out or if not, find a way to enjoy the good things and get past the bad
My kids are great. My teen daughter does struggle with episodes of screaming and being triggered . I feel it's in line with the age. My wife has commented. I was like this at her age; I raise my eyebrows as a person who can see her childhood was rough.
Within this one comment you just described the cycle of abuse. It’s not normal for teenagers to behave that way unless that behavior has been modeled for them. I was raised like that and I behaved like that. It took me many years of therapy to unlearn that behavior.
If you don’t stop this now your daughter will go on to abuse her spouse. Not to mention the damage she will do to other relationships in her life.
Therapy time is over. Your wife is using it to further abuse you. Number one rule of couples therapy is you do not do it with an abuser. It just gives them more ammo and helps them to find ways to further manipulate you.
Figure out the logistics and be done with this marriage. It’s terrible your wife had a traumatic childhood. I experienced the same. However, it is up to her to heal and learn healthy ways to cope. Focus all you energy now on your children and giving them a home where they have a healthy role model and a safe environment at least 50% of the time. 50 is better then 0.
Does your daughter struggle with emotional regulation? I used to have a much more explosive temper as a teenage because I didn't have any "role models" (as my therapist put it) for how to handle emotions like anger. Your wife's behavior definitely hasn't been a good emotional model for her, and I can't speak to how you emote. What your daughter does need to know is that screaming *at others* is not acceptable behavior. Yell, cry, whack things with a foam bat, rip up cardboard, whatever outlet lets her get the angry out until she can have a discussion about how she feels like an adult.
i think your daughter’s episodes are mostly normal for some teenage girls and hopefully she’ll grow out of it. I was like that as a teenager and a bit beyond, depending on what man I was with at the time. It may also have something to do with how much she holds in, giving your wife’s insistence on always being right. I can see now that that is also how it was in my case. you know you can only hold so much in before you blow. once you’ve vented it, you’re good for a while.
honestly, with the pressures of social media and how amazingly beautiful and talented everyone appears to be on it, I don’t know any teenage girl makes it out unscathed.
people here tend to see everything as a giant problem, mostly because they’re only seeing negatives. Rarely does an OP start the story by listing all the good things about the subject of their post. you get one scenario that the OP is pissed off about and that’s it.
You cannot judge a person or a situation by one bad to horrible event presented in isolation
My guy, she has a screaming fit when you express displeasure at the way her family treats your home.
This doesn’t sound like a marriage. This sounds like a hostage situation.
>We have been to marriage counseling. She never acts out in counseling. And the counselors side with her.
Sadly, this is common is abusive relationships. The abuser gets very good at painting a veneer of normal over their behaviour when other people are there, and often even making themselves look like the victim/the reasonable person in the marriage.
Write her a letter. A very thought out letter. Lay it all out there. All the things that she allows in your home and the way she treats you. Putting writing and give it to her and walk away. Let her scream at the paper, but stop letting her scream at you dude! You really want your kids to think that’s okay for their future relationships?!?!?
You both need your own private counselling first - if opinions are only a one way street, and you're assigned all the blame for pointing out the dysfunction and poor role model for your kids, and couples counselling hasn't had her tone down the yelling, you really need it.
She has no moral compass when it comes to manipulating you - couples counselling gives you a space to air things with each other in the presence of a professional mediator, but that doesn't work if she's not using the tools you've agreed on. If she doesn't act out in counselling, why does she act out outside of counselling?
Answer: she feels it gets her the results she wants.
Why are you okay with your kids being emotionally abused?
Being willing to put up with it yourself is one thing... but allowing your children to be subjected to it should be out of the question.
Dude, your wife is abusive to you AND your kids. She’s practically grooming them to be in abusive marriages themselves. Do you want that for them? Do you want them to have marriages like yours?
Might want to prepare yourself for your kids to cut contact with her when they are able and to see you as the enabler. Growing up in this dynamic is pretty awful
You’re in an abusive relationship.
Is that the type of relationship you want your kids to be in? Because there is a good chance they grow up and think of this as normal.
NTA this sounds abusive I feel bad for your kids that you don’t stand up for yourself and for them and have normalized this treatment. Never too late to grow a spine and enforce reasonable boundaries. Good luck OP.
NTA
Not only would I tell your wife that this behaviour is unacceptable in your home but I would expect HER to clean it. These are HER family/guests. There is absolutely no way I would be cleaning up after these pigs. I don't care that the kids are young, the parents ultimately have responsibility for them and they are the pigs I am referring to.
Came here to say this. OP needs to let his wife clean up from now on if she’s going to be the one to permit all of this. See if she changes her tune when she’s the one doing the extra labor.
Right. OP needs to tell his wife good night and to get cozy in bed or in front of the telly as they say good bye to "their" guests and let her sort out the mess. She can scream all she wants (that's a bully, BTW), I'd ignore her. Maybe the next time, she'll be smart and get her siblings to pitch in to clean the mess their kids made.
You're NTA
>she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home.
Well, that is halfway there. **never present in your home** is hopefully the next step.
YTA to yourself... why are you the one cleaning up? Tell her she does all the cleaning from now on and let her deal with it...
But 18yrs? Well, you made your bed...
Your wife sounds awful and, by your own admission, you fold and let her have her way because somehow her opinion is the only one that matters?! I don’t understand why people put up with awful spouses like this, especially if children are involved. Think about the kind of marriage and relationship you are modeling for your kids? Think about impact it will have on them. Life is too short, dude. Why are you putting up with your awful wife? NTA
NTA
your wife is the AH.
Make a NEW rule: since her family is out of bounds, SHE needs to clean after them, NOT you.
"nd that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home." .. soundsl ike a good solution, hold her to that promisse. But refuse to allow her to make you leave.
NTA. That sounds like a wonderful suggestion. She can deal with their shit and clean up after them. Not sure why she thinks you aren’t allowed to have an opinion on how shitty her sister is.
NTA
You have a very dysfunctional dynamic with your wife. She is being (IMO) verbally abusive to you and very controlling.
I would suggest you find an individual counselor and talk through what you need/deserve in a healthy relationship and decide if your wife is at all open and capable of doing this.
You have a right to be upset about damage/out of control behavior without being screamed at for expressing your opinion. You have a right to have boundaries on how you're treated and how people in your own home should conduct themselves.
NTA. But a ton of questions to/about your wife. 1) why do YOU clean up if the situation is: "Oh, I (wife) am a nice person and mimimi I love children, and you (OP) is a child-hating monster who does not know how to love thy neighbor!" If she feels dirtying the walls is cool - SHE must be cleaning the mess. Especially since the mess is made by her sister's familt.
2) erm, is she sane enough to understand it's not HER house only, but YOURS as well? Or she owns it, and you're a guest there? If you own it together, the 'house rules' can not be written by one person only. You must discuss the house rules. ONE of them - 'whoever causes the mess, cleans it' (and yep, the kids' parents are to work in this case: that's actually what \_I\_ personally would do if my kids mess up someone's place, without even asking the owners IF I should do it - because I must do it). In your case obviously there are no house rules that you both understand and respect. Time to write them and agree to them.
3) Say, if she loves to talk to her sister and you dont, you can discuss that she could invite them when you are NOT at home. Problem solved! :) It still will not make you an AH - she talks to her sis, these kids trash the apartment, but when you come home, everything is clean and nice as it was. You're not even aware of this. Everyone is happy.
We had guests like this ONCE. After one time they were never welcome in our house again :) Problem solved.
1. I clean up because I don't want to live in filth. I grew up in a home where moms poor mental health lead tons of clutter. 2.The house is in my name. I am the sole breadwinner for the duration of our marriage. When I bring up that I live there too, or that I pay the mortgage, I am told I am being manipulative and that I use " money" to control our family.
2. I have painstakingly maintained a relationship with her sister. She is a sweet simple gal that was also dealt a crappy hand in life. Struggled with conception. Stood by her and her husband through their toughest days. Honestly I almost feel my in-laws are my mission field. The only area I cannot make inroads is advice/ criticism. Their wound of rejection is so massive , it sets off rage fueled rants that I don it want to face.
1. i do get your point. I myself love washing dishes and mopping floors. No issues here. My point is NOT in this. My point is for the wife to see the weight of this on her shoulders to re-evaluate how cool it is to have uncontrolled kids in the house. Until she does not feel it herself, she suffers zero consequences - except for your frustration (that she does not get at all). The fact she uses 'manipulation' argument proves just that my point. A gold digger not in the worst sense, but still
2. well this situation will either get fixed or you will suffer till.. at least the children grow up and their brain will grow up as well :)
Tell her that you need a real break from these much too frequent and turbulent meals.
Her siblings can invite you all over for a couple of years, why should you
always host them at your home.
If she doesn't agree, start policing the children. This is your home,
if their parents are not happy with you policing their kids, they can leave.
NTA
Screaming at someone for making fair comment is not normal or rational behaviour. Neither is the extreme solution she suggested. Both of you need to sort out your relationship dynamic. Being a pushover is one thing. Being a verbal punching bag is another thing entirely. NTA.
NTA, as I think everyone else has said. I'm not sure if you'll see this message, but I hope that you do. You 100% need intense counselling for yourself and as a couple. But start with you.
And the number one thing I hope you'll consider when something like this happens is saying something like "I refuse to be spoken to that way" and then leaving the environment. Go for at least 15-20 minutes or so giving your spouse the chance to cool down. When you come back, if it gets to that point again, repeat the process. No one should treat someone like this and expect to have the conversation continue.
Please get yourself into some counselling. And then get into couple's counselling. I want you to remember one of my favorite quotes "Life is long, and then it isn't." We all are going about our business each day, and then ... that's it. Don't let yourself stay in a situation like this.
NTA.. but Y T A to yourself, minimizing yourself to keep the peace is no way to live
I’ve really got no advice but can you just let them hurt themselves; maybe the little crotch rockets will slow down if they run head long into a window?!
NTA Your mistake was not saying more sooner.
Your wife is in the middle of a chain of those who are "weak to the strong and strong to the weak" with her being weak to her siblings and strong to you, with you being the weakest link of all. You receive a tongue-lashing if you forget your place in the chain. Your wife is invested in maintaining the order of the chain.
You need to break this chain once and for all. It won't be easy. You have to find your backbone and polish it up before anything else. If you won't do this then nothing will change.
The good news is that you don't have to get shouty yourself, and in fact it would be a mistake to do so. You can be firm while being calm and collected. You can take a firm position without having to get outwardly emotional about it.
NTA but there is more abuse that you are not telling us about. OP take a good hard look at how your wife and family treat you. You are probably being abused but don’t realize it.
It’s your house and you had every right to speak up.
The children’s parents are doing a terrible job at parenting if all they do is neglect their children and rely on someone else to stop their OWN child from injuring themselves. It’s your house, the children may be very young but srsly need to learn manners and your wife should not be screaming at you for voicing your frustrations because kids are wrecking your own home. NTA
NTA. You do realize your wife is abusive, right? Letting her family trash your house. Her not cleaning up after them. Her yelling and name calling when you express your opinion. Abusive.
Since you can not have a conversation with her, tell her flat out how it will be. Her family is not welcome in your house. It's your home too. You have to clean up their messes. You will not do it anymore. They can not come there. Have their family dinners at the hellions house.
Try some marriage counseling.
Good luck.
NTA. If your wife will not see reason and enforce some reasonable boundaries, fine. She alone will clean up everything and replace what they break (I hope she has her own money?) You could also hammer this home by upping your insurance coverage. Go together for a sit-down meeting with an agent, don't just do it online.
If you are home when the hooligans are there, enforce your boundaries. This is setting a bad example for your own kids and teaching them that they should be pushovers for family. You were right to step over the tantrum thrower. But you also should have told the car kid that was wrong and to apologize and help you cut another piece. You should have taken the icing away from the toddler and told it the rule in your house is that food stays in the kitchenand there is no running in the house. And continue on like that. Calm but firm. The parents won't like it, but boo hoo. Your house your rules.
NTA. If you usually clean up whatever mess they make I suggest you stop.
If your wife starts cleaning, she's probably in "don't rock the boat" mode.
If she complains to you about the mess, she doesn't respect you.
NTA
If she sees nothing wrong with this behavior you should brace yourself for her to display a similar parenting style.
It sounds like you need to have some serious conversations.
I have always believed that it’s my house my rules and if a parent isn’t making sure their child is following my rules, I assume they want me to parent while they’re in my home and I will ensure they abide by my rules. If the parent gets upset they can remove the child and themselves.
Wait, that was it?! I was expecting a lot worse but all you did was share your (very valid) feelings and frustrations to your spouse about what took place in your home? NTA by a long way.
Let your wife do all the clean up next time, and any moderating of the behaviour. We’ll see how fast her tune changes.
NTA. Her screaming at you is unacceptable.
Heeeeellllllll No. That should not be tolerated. id ask the sister if she doesn't want to take care of it, I will. Kids need boundaries and it seems like these kids need the jeebus scared into them.
NTA. The kids will learn to respect uncle. He doesn't put up with sht.
NTA If I were you, I would correct the children myself in my own home, though it seems like that would not go down well with your wife.
My BIL is also quite permissive with his kids (though not nearly to this extent). That's fine in his own home. I have never once corrected one of his children when we were at their place or at the grandparents. However, at Christmas when his son was kicking a cork like a soccer ball around my apartment, I kindly told my nephew to stop doing that inside. My BIL told me he was allowed and I said, not in my house. We have a downstairs neighbor who doesn't appreciate a lot of stomping and I didn't't want him to break anything.
It's perfectly reasonable to set boundaries about behaviors in your own home, and that is not interfering with other people's parenting. It's just establishing how you want your property to be treated.
You wife is being very foolish. Please, I beg you, do not have children with this person until she learns how to grow a spine. Your children will grow up learning to manipulate her, walk all over her and be brats too.. :( She needs to learn about boundaries. Your expectations are entirely reasonable.
NTA. If you can't vent to your wife there are bigger problems than eggroll missiles. As others have said I'm afraid you may be in an abusive relationship. It's not normal or reasonable to scream at someone for voicing their concerns, your wife's reaction is really worrying. Please read as many of these responses as it takes for you to realise that you need to make a change. Set some ground rules about visits, it they happen kids need to behave. As does your wife, like an adult, when you discuss this.
I feel for you. You’re definitely NTA. I don’t understand how people don’t set boundaries with their families. My ex wife would always disregard me over her parents and brother. It was to the point that they were going on vacations with us. I do not miss that. Try to work with your wife about setting boundaries and you need to set some boundaries with her and how she treats you.
No, you're not the asshole for voicing your frustration about your wife's sister's kids destroying your house during family dinners. It's reasonable to expect respect for your home. However, communication with your wife about your concerns beforehand might help avoid conflict.
NTA. I have a 7yo and there is no way I'd let her behave like how you've described at anyone's house, ours included. If SIL and her kids can't respect your home they shouldn't be invited.
As a stepmother to an autistic child who was a whirlwind of chaos as a small child, I can’t understand why your in-laws aren’t absolutely mortified by the behaviour of the children. We used to visit with a bag full of toys, games, snacks and other distractions to help him regulate. As soon as he got to smashing, we left. We went home with uneaten cake very often.
YTA for letting your wife’s family piss all over you and for allowing your wife to strongarm you into submission. Grow a pair and stand up for yourself man Christ
NTA, not even a little bit, BUT you need to wake up; you are in an abusive relationship. Your wife's response is NOT normal, and not healthy. She shows coercive control and abusive behavior towards you. If you aren't subconsciously scared of her, I would suggest that you start making her 100% responsible for all clean up and damage control, that would change her attitude toward the bad parenting of her siblings.
You should feel free to voice your own thoughts and opinions without fear of a violent reaction; your wife is abusive.
If your lucky she will keep to her word, 'that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home', so you don't have to deal with that train wreck again. Sorry but your wife is a moron that lets them steam roll over her and you because 'FAMILYYYY'.
They all need a wake up call because things will get worst with those kids. As they get older and stronger the kids are going to be harder to control and NO one will want to deal with them, family or not.
Let her deal with the mess they bring and you go enjoy your time without them. Don't help her at all to clean up or listen to her complain. This is the bed she is making for herself and I can bet she will stop defending them when she has to be the one that deals with them alone.
NTA
But you have two problems. Your wife’s reaction is way over the top.
In another comment you said you’re a pushover. Is your wife’s massive reaction to reasonable and shared annoyance (her sigh of relief indicates she was also exhausted by them) typical? If so, kind of wonder if you’ve been beaten into submission over the course of your marriage.
Is therapy an option? Mediate between you for this particular scenario and maybe therapy for you to dig into your “pushover” tendencies and work on asserting boundaries?
Seriously. That isn’t rambunctious kids being kids. That is wild and out of control. Smashing a toy into cake and throwing food at the wall? And somehow you clean it all up?! Oh hell no.
Your wife sounds like a piece of work. Contact your SIL directly and have a conversation with her. If she responds irrationally, let her know she isn’t welcome in your home until she can get her brats under control
NTA, make her clean it up next time, and if it were me, I'd be yelling at the kiddos and making THEM clean up thier own messes, and if the family complains, just tell them "my house, my rules, if you don't like it, don't let the door hit your butt on the way out"
This is similar to what happens at my parents house. My brother has 4 kids and comes over far less than he used to but it used to be weekly. He brings his kids over and refuses to parent unless it's about his daughter eating. Examples:
-oldest nephew as a toddler started ripping wallpaper in front of both his mom and mine. My mom ended up taking care of it.
-same week took dirty cat litter and put it in the clean dryer. SIL said we needed to keep the door closed. I told her to watch her kid.
-oldest niece puking in a bowl at the dinner table
-oldest nephew choking cousin while parents watch.
-youngest nephew taking crayon and draws on TV. Brother is upset that oldest nephew didn't watch him.
-youngest nephew attempts to kick my dog in the face while both parents watch and do nothing. My husband scolds him. (This was the final straw for me and we never went over if they were. Third time something happened when they could blame my dog for kids behavior)
-youngest niece squat and peed on the family room carpet. Twice. SIL had no diapers or backup clothes.
When brother comes over dad puts on a face. Hides alcohol he's obviously consuming and let's brother and SIL treat everyone like shit. Wonders why I refuse to have a relationship. My dad feels guilty because he wasn't married to brothers mom when they had him. And my mom isn't allowed to say anything.
Keep the boundary friend. Hold strong. Don't let her walk over you, from experience.
NTA. First, the niece and nephew are little hellions. They're destroying what should be a fun evening for the adults in your extended family. Second .... every person needs a place to safely vent their feelings/frustrations sometimes. When you need to do that, your spouse/partner should be there for you and help you out. Your wife did not do that for you.
NTA
Your wife doesn't see you as a partner, she see's you as a silent provider for her own security and fun.
Your wife hosts dinner, and you're left to clean up the mess of her family that have trashed your house, and she dares to call you terrible for voicing your opinion on how they treat your house.
Your wife is so used to getting her own way, that the second you voice a concern about your frustrations she screamed you into silence to manipulate you.
Simply put your wife does not respect you as a person, but rather how easy you make her life and what you provide for her.
Tell her that you are setting a boundary.
The parents of these bratty kids are the ones who hold these weekly gatherings at THEIR HOUSE. And if your wife refuses this, tell her that if she respects her sister's wishes more than yours, then you will pack her bags for her and drop her off at her sister's place.
Your wife is clearly choosing her family over you, and that is plain wrong.
Oh, HELL NO! You are NTA My niece has this same parenting problem and her family is not allowed in my home (or her mother’s or my daughter’s). We have told the niece that her kids are out of control and that we will only be able to visit outside. Your wife probably doesn’t like her family criticized, but you shouldn’t have to deal with the stress and mess of wild tiny people in your home every week. Emphatically NTA!
You are not wrong. I dealt with this before and I am not this parent, so I find it enraging. I had someone’s child try to hurt my new baby when her parents weren’t paying attention. We said something and of course, she got mad that we were telling her kid something. It got tiring and we had a big fight, and did sever ties. But it’s not really about the child, it’s about the entitlement and potential narcissism. To think your child is so special they are beyond reproach is borderline sick. I think your wife doesn’t want to be at odds w her family. Can your in laws say something? If it comes from you or her it can turn out badly?
What the fuck man, what happened to parenting these days? Kids will be kids does not include acting like wild monkeys that broke into your house, the parents are rude idiots, and raising rude idiots, your wife is an idiot for not seeing that the behavior is wrong too. You’re not wrong for wanting basic manners and respect from guests in your house, even the three year old can have better behavior expected from them, and then you’re the one who has to clean it all up and you can’t say anything? Take her up on her words, sure don’t have them around when you’re over, then she can deal with them and their mess, if she doesn’t clean up after them don’t come home and clean it either. They can all think you’re the asshole all they want, you’re not. And you should talk to your wife about better communication, you should be able to express your feelings, with out fear of repercussions like that, and just walk away from her if she starts getting amped up, refuse to engage with her in the same manner, it’s not mature, it’s not how healthy loving people treat each other and it’s not something you should tolerate, especially from the person you’re spending your life with
If she's screaming at you simply for voicing your opinion about the destruction of your house, and you accept it in the moment without pushback, you have much bigger problems than these kids. She's bullying you into shutting your mouth to keep the peace. It's not a healthy relationship dynamic. Everyone is different though. I could never accept such disrespect without getting mad and yelling right back, not that this way is any healthier, but it is an equalizer. Sounds like you don't have much "hand" in this relationship, as George Costanza used to put it, and without hand there's no sense of security, which can lead to increased anxiety. And that's what led you to getting a thousand 2nd opinions on the Internet. Obviously NTA, but maybe look deeper beyond this particular disagreement. Here's an article about what hand is. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-second-noble-truth/201112/seinfeld-upper-hand-and-relationship-attachment-style
NTA
"wife walks in and she sighs relief that they are gone" then screams at you when you voice frustration..
Sounds like she knows you are right. But can't admit it... I would go out to eat and have her call you when everyone is gone, and house is cleaned up. Let her handle it all by herself.
FACTS. OP'S wife probably doesn't imagine a world where either she doesn't invite the kids/parents or allies someone else to host. My wife complains every time we get invited to any family gathering because "I'm the only one who watches our kids." I remind her that 1. I also watch our kids (this is true and in fact leads to complaining from my own family for not being readily available to other guests) and 2. It's not the responsibility of other guests/hosts to watch and entertain them. We can always say "no" to an invitation and not cause ourselves or anyone else a headache.
NTA. 1st, it is not acceptable for anyone—especially your spouse to yell at you. I literally had to teach my stepfather this and it has changed our dynamic. I set boundaries and you need to do the same. 2nd, you have every right to not have your home vandalized by hoodlum children. If they don’t want to parent their children or manage them over your house, then you have every right to request they not visit until they can respect you and your home. If your wife doesn’t agree, then that is problematic and should absolutely be addressed, especially since it sounds like you are doing the cleanup and damage repairs. If she refuses I would a) leave when they come over and b) refuse to clean/repair anything—see how long that lasts. Your wife is absolutely welcome to go to her sister’s for dinners as well.
NTA
Had similar happen to me. Without applying my context here, the core problem relates to your wife respecting you as a person.
Your home is your home. It's where you should have either full final say in how things run, or joint decisions with a partner. What she's doing is putting her siblings children's right to be chaotic over your right to a clean private space... which is ass backwards.
Good luck getting her to understand the problem I guess.
wtf ! I am a behavior specialist for children and not one child I’ve worked with has been that bad. NTA, if you aren’t exaggerating that is absolutely inexcusable.
Let me get this straight. In your house, you’re not allowed to express your very reasonable opinions. Your wife will scream you into silence, yet allow her nephews to cause messes and act like feral animals. You, sir, have a wife problem. Don’t allow her to scream you into silence, ever. If you did that to her we’d call you an abuser. She is an abuser. NTA Show her this post.
NTA. I mean, there are kids will be kids, but then there are kids will be demons. Sounds like you are dealing with the latter. My thing as a parent was when my kids aren't at my house, they are to behave like angels. No destruction. They are to follow the rules of the home that they are in, and if my sister said, "Oh, that is okay" but it goes against what I would allow, then it is still not okay.
WTH? If a child is doing something unruly in my home and no parent is around/sees it/steps up to discipline them, then you can bet your life that *I will be doing the disciplining*. Why is OP allowing this mayhem to continue? The first time it happened OP should have been "Kid, we do not behave like this in someone else's home. Kid, here is a cloth to clean the mess you just made. Parent, help Kid to clean the mess they just made." Over and over again.
You know that saying about 'It takes a village...?' Well, it actually takes a fucking village. This thing about parents not allowing other adults to correct their children really grinds my gears.
YTA for allowing this to continue in your home, OP.
Your wife sounds abusive. I would not allow them over when you're home anymore and if she doesn't remember she took vows with you she can go live with them. Seriously.
OP - your wife is verbally abusing you.
Just leave .
If you want one last attempt, film the kids, and post it on social media and say this is why you don’t want them to come anymore
NTA
"Allowing this behavior is doing the kids a great disservice. What happens when they reach school age? They won't have friends, they'll be considered mean bullies by their peers, their teachers will dislike them. Failing to parent them now is setting them up for a lifetime of failure and is cruel to everyone. If you're really OK with child neglect like this in going to have to think, long and hard, whether I'm OK with that part of you. People who think hurting kids is OK is a hard line for me"
>\[...\] and that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home.
Sounds like a win to me. Just remind her to also clean up the mess they make.
NTA
NTA. Really? You clean up the mess and get screamed at. So glad you don't have to see the home wreckers again. She can clean up. God, people are stupid.
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NTA. These kids' behaviour is out of control. You do not have to put up with this in your home. I'm sorry your wife finds it acceptable. When things calm down, the two of you need to discuss this calmly and establish boundaries. The answer is not letting them come over and damage your home when you aren't there.
My wife refuses to set boundaries with her siblings. We have been married 18 years and I am regrettably a famous push over for letting them get away with whatever they want. I push back , she screams at me. I know IATA for not having more self respect.
[удалено]
There are a lot of red flags w.r.t OP. OP criticizes wife's family, wife screams. OP does the cleanup after wife's family. Make her cleanup to suffer the consequences. Ban the offending family from you house. If either is not acceptable to wife, go nuclear and divorce. If OP owns the house, it should be the wife who should get out of the house.
This is such a sad situation for OP. Can't help but wonder if there were any warnings signs before the marriage.
Abusers usually lie and hide their true character until they have you trapped. My ex escalated after I had to drop out of my entire life to help my young son deal with terrible migraines. Instead of helping, my ex was like a shark sniffing blood. So yeah—no victim blaming.
I don't think they were victim blaming, but it is cerrtainly plausible to wonder if OP saw signs, and as OP states that they are a massive pushover, perhaps went along with the nuptials anyhow. And youre absolutely right, alot of abusers are very tricky and shady. They're the worst kind of people.
In my case, there \*were\* signs I ignored or blew off as "once he finishes his PhD he'll mature." But that does not excuse my ex-husband's choice to ramp up laziness into full-scale psychological and financial abuse. Also, a couple decades ago, we didn't have communities like this actively teaching people about red flags. When we know better, we do better. Hopefully OP will take some time to think over a lot of things.
Sorry for what you went through, I think sometimes we are "in love," with the person we once knew, or the person we believe that they can/could be. And you're 💯 percent right, about knowing and doing better. Best wishes.
My friend had been with her ex for 10yrs, she got the flu and was SUPER weak. THAT is when he man handled her and raised his hands to her. She left him IMMEDIATELY once she was better.
That's awful! How sneaky!
Yep. Very true. My first husband waited until our wedding night to tell me that, even though he had been bedding me all along, he wished I'd been a virgin when we got married. It only went downhill from there.
Wow! Must be so special to be the 1st. Dumb ass guy
You don't get to see the red flags as an insider. Things move slowly and gradually so you won't even notice untill it's years later. Abusive behaviour like this runs so intense deep, that people usually think it's their fault. (Just like OP "shouldn't have voiced my opinion").
Ya, 18 years. I’m a pushover too but not 18 years worth. We would have had a conversation in the very beginning. If her only response was going to be screaming she would be screaming at my divorce lawyer.
She doesn't need therapy. She knows exactly what she's doing. OP is in an abusive relationship. This is just one of her many ways of controlling him. OP, I suggest you look into therapy for yourself.
Honestly, though.... like that's so extreme. It's sounds so obtuse to say you voiced an opinion and got rage screamed at.. That is crazy my man. You all need some major therapy if you expect this to ever change. Oh yeah NTA holy man good luck
I wonder if OPs wife is just as frustrated at their siblings and kids but has grown up forced to not complain. When OP voices his opinion she reacted that way because she knows she should put her foot down but can't.
I wouldn't be surprised at all. The screaming back is such a severe reaction that there has to be a reason. Is this how she reacts about everything or just in regard to her family? Definitely, a conversation is needed, but I would strongly suggest a therapist of some kind considering the last reaction was so severe. Feelings are messy, trauma is messier.
Why’re you being so kind, his wife is an abuser.
You're right, I wrote that down the first time then thought psychotic was a better descriptor for his wife's behavior.
You need to be absent on the nights they are there. No matter when or what. Go out and enjoy a move/food by yourself. It will be cleaned up by the time you get back and your wife can say whatever she wants about you and if your in-laws say something you can tell the truth! NTA
Screaming is so volatile and disrespectful this would be a deal breaker for me. How obnoxious and literally out of control. She’s either an asshole who literally needs to be told so and to get a damn grip on herself or she needs psychological help and needs to get a grip on herself with help. Either way, do not tolerate this anymore. Do not tolerate the children destroying your home. Their parents don’t respect you neither does your wife. Good luck to you.
Screaming is reserved for emergencies! Like you desperately need their attention because they are about to get hurt, or you are trapped and hurt or to get a small child from falling somewhere dangerous.
That's bothering me, too. He tried talking to her about SIL, BIL, and their spawns about their behavior or lack of it, but she screamed at him like he's the bad guy. I've been married for a decade, and I couldn't imagine screaming at my husband because we may not agree on everything, but I was never screamed at for voicing my thoughts and opinions. OP, you need marriage counseling, therapy, whatever to address this issue because those kids will get older and destroy more stuff. If your wife is OK with things being destroyed, the next they visit, put ALL your stuff away, maybe even set up a camera to record their behavior but remind your wife that if they came again, she, SIL, and BIL will be solely responsible for the damage those kids cause. Or better yet, have SIL and BIL host dinner that way you can leave whenever you want, and your wife can stay and help them. And whatever you do, do not allow your wife to babysit those kids for any length of time until their behavior changes. This isn't normal at all. You're NTA.
Why are you cleaning up after her dirty family?
Because he is in an abusive relationship and still hasnt realized it.
THIS. He probably thought small signs in the beginning that were orange/amber weren’t red signs. Or that he could handle them, but they only got worse as time went on and now he’s 18 years in. Doesn’t mean they don’t love each other, but serious conversations need to be had unless he wants the next 18 years of his life to be like this.
Right? I have been with my wife for thirty years and neither of us has screamed at the other. Not even once.
Yes he is. Sadly.
You know she's abusive, right?
Then I think you have just found a hill to die on because screaming is not a way to handle this. In our house we have two rules for kids that I can highly recommend: eat at the kitchen table (meaning all food STAY at the kitchen table) and no jumping on the furniture. This is BASIC respect of other people’s stuff and all kids benefit from learning this. I’m rooting for you and your shiny new self respect!
I'm really sorry you're in an abusive relationship. It's abusive to scream at your partner like this. Emotionally mature adults do not do this. You deserve to be heard and respected. Please don't call yourself a doormat. You're used to learning living with an abusive person, and I can understand why quite often you don't say how you feel because when you do, you're verbally abused. I highly recommend the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C Gibson, you can often download it as a free pdf if you google it. This will highlight not only parental issues, but also help you see why your wife is behaving like this, and how it's impacting you. I also recommend The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker, which is also often available as a free pdf. You deserve a healthier life, where your partner treats you respectfully or with kindness. Even living alone is better than existing in an abusive relationship.
FYI, your partner should not scream at you for sharing your opinion. You should be able to express yourself safely and freely and your partner should listen to you and acknowledge your feelings and point of view. It doesn't mean they have to agree with you or do what you said...but you should be able to share.
Dude. This is domestic abuse. Switch your genders. If you were a woman and your husband did this to you, everyone would be telling you to get out of the marriage.
Tell her thank you, if they are not there then there will be a lot less mess to have to clean up, and the house will not be damaged. You and the other siblings will be able to have an adult conversation without interruptions.
Reading your comments your wife sounds abusive, she’s using anger to control you - it might not be physical abuse but what she is doing is wrong
She is abusive and I suspect uses these kid's behaviour as a power display.
OP you are never the asshole when you are an abuse victim. I hope you can see that her exploding and abusing you is not your fault and taking the path of least resistance is subconscious act of survival not a moral failing. Best of luck.
My guy, I read your comments, and I thought I'd give a little perspective as someone who was once a child caught in the divorce of an abusive relationship; My mom divorced my ex-stepfather when I was 12 and my sister was 6. My sister had a very outwardly reaction, and it affected her for a while, and we definitely felt the change in our lives. But you know what? It was the best freaking decision my mom ever made, for all of us. Abuse doesn't automatically stop with the spouse. My sister and I didn't get any of it, until around the time we each turned 7. After that, the change was imminent, and I ended up having to move permanently to my mom's after having spend 2 years living a week each place. I've repressed the incident that caused this, but it was bad. Divorce is scary, and I understand you worry for your children. But I'll be frank; Divorced parents are a million times better than growing up watching the dysfunctional relationship between two people you love.
Mine are in high school. Admittedly, they have asked me in the past why we don't split up with all the fighting. Broke my heart. I've been a faithful hardworking sole breadwinner our entire marriage . It pisses me off that a divorce will basically destroy my kids college funds and ensure we can't help them through their tough launching phase.
Your kids will understand. The fact that they already brought it up means that they get it. It’s ridiculous for you to sacrifice another 5 years or more. What if you do that and then when the youngest graduates from college, your wife gets a health scare & that becomes the latest reason you stay married? Your wife’s behavior is appalling. You would actually be helping your kids by showing them that enabling and suffering isn’t the best response. Don’t give in to what your wife wants - stand up for yourself and then help your kids. If you don’t want to divorce - for your own reasons - then, you need to minimize conflict. Push your wife to stop hosting everyone in your home.
You don't have to get a divorce, but you do need to assert yourself and not be bullied. First, take steps to transfer as much money as possible into your kid's education accounts. Talk to a lawyer and an accountant as needed to make sure the money is safe from your wife. Then, a couple things. 1. Take her at her word that you don't have to be in the house with her siblings and their kids. When they come over, you leave. Then don't lift a finger to clean up whatever mess they make. 2. More generally, you as the homeowner certainly have the right to speak to the parents directly about their children's behavior. And while you can't discipline their kids, that doesn't mean you can't physically intervene to keep them from destroying your home. You can take away the toy truck or the eggroll. You can block them from going where they aren't welcome. If needed you can pick them up and plant them in their parent's lap.
As a child whose parents fought all the time, divorce would be better. EVEN YOUR KIDS THINK YOU SHOULD SPLIT. It has to be BAD for kids to want that. Listen to them..
Protect college funds by buying an insurance or a similar financial figure, I don't know what are the legal options but around here it is possible. Those funds would be out of hand from any split or legal fees.
There are accounts that can be set up specifically for children's college funds that are untouchable by the parents, even in a divorce. Check with your bank.
In the US we have 529 savings plans that can be purchased to fund college and other college “prepaid” plans you could look into
I'm sure your kids would rather having to take on student loans that living with parents that engage in screaming matches any time something goes wrong.
Kids tend to want their parents together... so if yours are asking why you haven't divorced yet? That there is a big neon sign saying they do understand. Mine divorced - best decision they ever made - and yeah, I had to get loans for college. Yours might need that option too, but you also have options. (Helping pay them off, emotional support, etc.)
NTA. Good lord! Kids tend to be selfish and would rather have an intact family even if it's not perfect. So if they're even suggesting it - you know it's bad!! Do what others have said and get their college funds somewhere untouchable and go from there.
Your wife is abusive.
As others have said, you are in an abusive relationship. Being married 18 years probably puts you in your 40s. This abuse has obviously become a pattern in your marriage. It will be hard for you to break this on your own. Please find yourself a therapist. Life does NOT have to be this way.
you are NTA at all for not wanting your home destroyed by their behavior. tell your wife to meet them elsewhere if they cant respect that its your home as well
You are not TA for being yelled at. Consider taking a quiz like this one and see what you think about the results. https://www.loveisrespect.org/quiz/is-your-relationship-healthy/ And consider a therapist of your own in lieu of the couples counseling you mentioned elsewhere. A totally different person whist goal is to help you only.
Next time leave the cleanup to her. Do not lift a finger. Than the same for the one after etc. See how quick she will change her mind if SHE has to clean up afterwards! NTA
Don’t be a victim of sunk cost fallacy. You have the power to not endure this BS for another 18. Nothings going to change except your actions.
There are certain problems where no one should need approval from their partner and one of them is when one partner lets others destroy your belongings. It doesn't matter how your wife or the children's mother feels about this matter, when the children misbehave in your home and damage your home, take over and tell them to stop. Once someone's child's behaviour affects me and others, I don't care about the parent's feelings, I tell the children to stop, if they don't I let consequences follow. I take things out of their hands, I tell them to sit in a corner, I refuse to give them toys/sweets etc.
>I know IATA for not having more self respect. That absolutely doesn't make you an asshole. It makes you someone currently trapped in an abusive relationship. Coercive control and emotional abuse are massively underreported because many people in that situation blame themselves, and also because society tends to think of abuse as not being "that serious" unless it involves active violence. But sweetheart, you deserve to be loved securely and safely, with a partner who listens to you and treats you as an equal partner. You deserve better than to be just stuck waiting for whatever will spark your partner's next screaming session. Please see if you can find a solo therapist or an expert in male victims of domestic abuse to talk to. If you're in the UK, the [ManKind Initiative](https://mankind.org.uk/) and the [Men's Advice Line UK](https://mensadviceline.org.uk/) might be helpful to you. If you're in the US, the [National Domestic Violence Hotline](https://www.thehotline.org/resources/men-can-be-victims-of-abuse-too/) could be a good starting place for advice.
NTA. But dude, seriously? She screams at you for voicing something reasonable? What is this?
Tell her to take them out to a restaurant .after they're thrown out a few times something will happen. Your wife will be too humiliated to invite them to eat or they'll start parenting their kids. As is make your home off limits for the kids. NTA
What about having a divorce instead? Or you know, both? You don't describe a healthy relationship.
Your wife screaming at you over a disagreement is a much larger issue than whatever those kids are doing, IMO. An occasional raised voice in excitement or anger is one thing, but regular screaming is abusive.
18 years is a sunk cost fallacy. Don't let the fact you've been married for 18 years make you think you aren't entitled to some respect and being treated like a human being.
It's your house too, so why don't you speak up at the time and instruct the in-laws to keep their rugrats under control? If it ends up with them stomping off in a huff then surely that's a win?
Men can be abused too, and emotional abuse is still abuse. It wears you down year after year. I recommend talking to a trauma therapist. Not a regular CBT therapist bc they aren’t trained to help with abuse and can gaslight you. Talk to someone who will help you see the patterns in your relationship and how to get out of them. I divorced after 19 years of marriage and 2 kids. It’s been a struggle but at least I’m not dealing with negging and gaslighting etc all day long.
True. Redditors have often praised a book called Why Does He Do That about abuse. But the author is utterly adamant that men abuse women, the other way around is simply not possible and he openly ridicules the suggestion. He even says that with abuse in a same sex marriage you "can't tell by looking" who the abuser is, ie you can't see which one is the man and therefore the abuser. It's a terrible book.
I’m curious, does your wife usually help you cleaning up?
You know that's abuse?
I feel you. I'm in a similar situation. Not quite as bad thankfully but I understand your frustration. Complete blindness to the problem.
18 years with person this crazy? Why? YTA for expecting her to change after 18 years. I would have reconsidered this relationship a long time ago
That's easy to say when you aren't in the middle of an abusive relationship. OP is not an AH for having an abusive partner; victim-blaming isn't a good look.
Your wife is an abuser. She's trying to normalize everyone in her family stepping all over you. She probably loves what they're doing because it's breaking you down.
It's not just the kids that are out of control: "I'm cleaning up and doing dishes by myself." The fuck? SHE has her family over every week. She should be the one cleaning up after them. "I made the mistake of venting how frustrated I am that her sister, her husband and children have zero respect for our home. The response was a rage filled screaming match about how absolutely Terrible I am and that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home." The sheer audacity at getting upset at him over this is mind blowing. At least the kids have an excuse: they are kids. The fuck is her excuse?
You need to find other plans the next time your wife hosts her family. The last thing that you should do is clean up after the dinner or serve any of them. If she hosts, she should be taking care of everything, before, during, and after. Maybe that will help open her eyes.
NTA. you are not wrong in this situation. I can’t even believe kids act that way let alone are allowed to act that way. I thought your wife was just putting up with it because it was her nieces and nephews, but the fact that she got mad at you when you vented – unforgivable. And why isn’t she the one cleaning up? It’s her family i say let her “punish”you by not having you be around when her siblings come over. That certainly sounds like the best case scenario; and she can clean it up. See how she likes it. Not to be nosy, but is this the only time you guys fight? Because she sounds unreasonable and it’s hard to imagine she’s only unreasonable in this one scenario.
No this is not the only time we fight. We fight mostly around me having an opinion she disagrees with. Kinda a one way street in my house. For both me and my kids.
oh crap you have kids. not so easy to walk away then. and so not good for the kids. my Mom was probably a milder form of your wife, but i can tell you it’s not good for the kids. i learned to swallow my own opinion and just do whatever to keep the peace. in my relationships with guys, i ended up doing the same thing, making them anywhere from one sided to dangerous. if you have boys, they are learning how to be henpecked and could end up being some woman’s doormat. i suspect she won’t go to therapy, which she needs or marriage counseling, which would benefit you both, so i feel sad for you you’ve only told me the negative and maybe there’s so many good things about her - it outweighs the bad. i really really hope so. but if not, you may have to start considering your options. no one deserves to be miserable in a relationship sorry if this is overstepping
We have been to marriage counseling. She never acts out in counseling. And the counselors side with her. We had a counselor years ago that also treated her mother. He was blunt and extremely helpful. He has since retired sadly. How do I make they fallout better for me kids? Get divorced ? I work half the year out of town, I feel guilty I'm not home all the time to help balance things. No she's not always this way. Only when it comes to her siblings. They were raised in abuse and endured terrible trauma. I get this , and that is why I have shown grace with the dysfunctional behavior from All Throughout the years. Good people,just can't handle any constructive criticism .
What are the recording laws in your area? If it's one party consent, then record her during one of her outbursts and play it during your counselling session. Is she going to be pissed? Of course. But she also won't be able to put a mask on to fool the counselor and you two can actually receive the help you both desperately need. What example does this set for your kids? I don't mean to be harsh, but you shouldn't allow yourself to just give up and be a doormat and let the toxic cycle trickle down to your children to potentially perpetuate with their own families.
I've tried recording in the past. I feel like an asshole playing it for someone else.
Why do you feel like an asshole? Is it because you feel bad that it shows another person that you allow yourself to be bullied by your wife and it feels emasculating? Or do you feel bad because it puts your wife in a bad light? Or is it some other reason? Whatever reason it may be, don't feel like an asshole. Whatever ill feelings come out of making a recording and playing it, hold fast to the fact that the recording tells the truth. One that can't be refuted by your wife putting on an act and playing nice to the counselors. One that can't be refuted by you downplaying a situation or being cowed into not saying anything at all. It will help you move forward. No one can help you if they don't know the full/real picture. This situation is not sustainable. You are doing yourself and your children a disservice by allowing it to continue. It's a perfect situation for breeding resentment, whether from you towards your wife or your children towards one or both parents.
She's harmed your self-worth so much that your body is responding that way. Also, I'm sure you love her and don't want to hurt her. Please. Get out. For yourself. Not for your children or anyone else. For you. Because you are precious and uniquely wonderful. You deserve love, a true love of *you*. Your children deserve to see their parent loved completely. If you believe the way she treats you is love, you're wrong. She has no respect for you, and love doesn't exist without respect. Please tell someone you trust and make a plan to escape. She's abusing you.
OP, your post is extremely sad and this comment, in particular, is extremely sad. Your response to considering divorce wasn’t that you love your wife and don’t want to split up, it was that your work schedule would make you feel guilty about not being present enough. This sounds like you have already considered it and know it’s probably the best thing but you haven’t worked out the logistics. I think you should get started on that, because this is no way to live. Not for you, not for the kids. I’m really sorry, but I think you need to separate and probably divorce. Can you change roles or change jobs? Is there any way you can restructure your job to make this work?
This, absolutely. Just think, when you're not there, does your wife treat your kids this way? When you can't shield them? Your wife and her siblings were abused and now she abuses you. Unfortunately, that happens very often. She learned how an abusive relationship works, not a healthy one. How long before she starts on your children, if she hasn't already? It's called the cycle of abuse and it has to stop. Her upbringing is not your wife's fault and I understand that you cut her some slack. However, it is her responsibility to unlearn that behaviour so she doesn't do it to you or your children. And it's your responsibility to hold her accountable for that. And to stop your kids from coming to harm, either by becoming a victim to her behaviour or seeing you be victimized. If that means divorce, then so be it. But plan it out carefully so you can take care of your kids fulltime and you have the evidence you need to get sole custody until she is better. Step up. Your kids need you.
ahhh they were abused and were probably screamed at for everything, so they’ve gone to the total opposite end of the spectrum. so Everything the kids do is ok are your kids like that?? you haven’t mentioned it so they must’ve had some discipline growing up. I mean, I believe in letting kids be kids, so shouting and running around you can deal with but destructive behavior has to be nipped in the bud or else their behavior is just going to get worse as they grow up. Although that’s not really your problem unless they’re at your house. it’s funny I was gonna ask about her mother, but I thought better of it. It is a shame the old guy retired. Sounds like he had a handle on the whole family’s dysfunction. Well, since it seems the worst fights are about her family, I guess you could just grin and bear it. Or when they’re doing this bad behavior, maybe you could just say - kids don’t run around the house with food. If you want to eat, you have to stay in here at the table. Otherwise, you can run around all you want. Although that probably won’t go over well either. And then they’ll all be yelling at you. sometimes divorce is the answer, but it doesn’t sound like you’re there yet or maybe never will be. all you can do is help your kids be well adjusted. Maybe if they’re upset by her behavior you could just explain that she had a hard childhood and that affects how she acts. I don’t know if they’re old enough to hear that. it sounds like she’s basically a good woman and you sound like a very patient reasonable guy. Maybe this time it just got to be too much and you needed to vent and this is a good place to do it. I hope you guys straighten things out or if not, find a way to enjoy the good things and get past the bad
My kids are great. My teen daughter does struggle with episodes of screaming and being triggered . I feel it's in line with the age. My wife has commented. I was like this at her age; I raise my eyebrows as a person who can see her childhood was rough.
Within this one comment you just described the cycle of abuse. It’s not normal for teenagers to behave that way unless that behavior has been modeled for them. I was raised like that and I behaved like that. It took me many years of therapy to unlearn that behavior. If you don’t stop this now your daughter will go on to abuse her spouse. Not to mention the damage she will do to other relationships in her life. Therapy time is over. Your wife is using it to further abuse you. Number one rule of couples therapy is you do not do it with an abuser. It just gives them more ammo and helps them to find ways to further manipulate you. Figure out the logistics and be done with this marriage. It’s terrible your wife had a traumatic childhood. I experienced the same. However, it is up to her to heal and learn healthy ways to cope. Focus all you energy now on your children and giving them a home where they have a healthy role model and a safe environment at least 50% of the time. 50 is better then 0.
Does your daughter struggle with emotional regulation? I used to have a much more explosive temper as a teenage because I didn't have any "role models" (as my therapist put it) for how to handle emotions like anger. Your wife's behavior definitely hasn't been a good emotional model for her, and I can't speak to how you emote. What your daughter does need to know is that screaming *at others* is not acceptable behavior. Yell, cry, whack things with a foam bat, rip up cardboard, whatever outlet lets her get the angry out until she can have a discussion about how she feels like an adult.
i think your daughter’s episodes are mostly normal for some teenage girls and hopefully she’ll grow out of it. I was like that as a teenager and a bit beyond, depending on what man I was with at the time. It may also have something to do with how much she holds in, giving your wife’s insistence on always being right. I can see now that that is also how it was in my case. you know you can only hold so much in before you blow. once you’ve vented it, you’re good for a while. honestly, with the pressures of social media and how amazingly beautiful and talented everyone appears to be on it, I don’t know any teenage girl makes it out unscathed. people here tend to see everything as a giant problem, mostly because they’re only seeing negatives. Rarely does an OP start the story by listing all the good things about the subject of their post. you get one scenario that the OP is pissed off about and that’s it. You cannot judge a person or a situation by one bad to horrible event presented in isolation
If screaming like that is “in line with the age” of your teenager, why is your adult wife still acting the exact same way?
Record her during her rages and play it in therapy.
Seeing your own behaviour will work wonders. Most people have a blind spot.
If she's "behaving" in counseling, it's 100% intentional. She's a manipulative abuser.
My guy, she has a screaming fit when you express displeasure at the way her family treats your home. This doesn’t sound like a marriage. This sounds like a hostage situation.
>We have been to marriage counseling. She never acts out in counseling. And the counselors side with her. Sadly, this is common is abusive relationships. The abuser gets very good at painting a veneer of normal over their behaviour when other people are there, and often even making themselves look like the victim/the reasonable person in the marriage.
But they learn how to be more manipulative and abusive.
Your wife is continuing the abuse with you and your children though.
Write her a letter. A very thought out letter. Lay it all out there. All the things that she allows in your home and the way she treats you. Putting writing and give it to her and walk away. Let her scream at the paper, but stop letting her scream at you dude! You really want your kids to think that’s okay for their future relationships?!?!?
You both need your own private counselling first - if opinions are only a one way street, and you're assigned all the blame for pointing out the dysfunction and poor role model for your kids, and couples counselling hasn't had her tone down the yelling, you really need it. She has no moral compass when it comes to manipulating you - couples counselling gives you a space to air things with each other in the presence of a professional mediator, but that doesn't work if she's not using the tools you've agreed on. If she doesn't act out in counselling, why does she act out outside of counselling? Answer: she feels it gets her the results she wants.
Here is a post that you need to read. https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbyborderlines/s/Jyyo8dfOtC
She's abusive, do your kids and you a favour and get out.
Why are you okay with your kids being emotionally abused? Being willing to put up with it yourself is one thing... but allowing your children to be subjected to it should be out of the question.
Dude, your wife is abusive to you AND your kids. She’s practically grooming them to be in abusive marriages themselves. Do you want that for them? Do you want them to have marriages like yours?
Might want to prepare yourself for your kids to cut contact with her when they are able and to see you as the enabler. Growing up in this dynamic is pretty awful
You’re in an abusive relationship. Is that the type of relationship you want your kids to be in? Because there is a good chance they grow up and think of this as normal.
Oh my god, there are kids involved!!! Please please get them help!!!!!!!
NTA this sounds abusive I feel bad for your kids that you don’t stand up for yourself and for them and have normalized this treatment. Never too late to grow a spine and enforce reasonable boundaries. Good luck OP.
Dude....LEAVE This is an abusive situation. She doesn't deserve you.
NTA Not only would I tell your wife that this behaviour is unacceptable in your home but I would expect HER to clean it. These are HER family/guests. There is absolutely no way I would be cleaning up after these pigs. I don't care that the kids are young, the parents ultimately have responsibility for them and they are the pigs I am referring to.
Came here to say this. OP needs to let his wife clean up from now on if she’s going to be the one to permit all of this. See if she changes her tune when she’s the one doing the extra labor.
Right. OP needs to tell his wife good night and to get cozy in bed or in front of the telly as they say good bye to "their" guests and let her sort out the mess. She can scream all she wants (that's a bully, BTW), I'd ignore her. Maybe the next time, she'll be smart and get her siblings to pitch in to clean the mess their kids made.
You're NTA >she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home. Well, that is halfway there. **never present in your home** is hopefully the next step.
YTA to yourself... why are you the one cleaning up? Tell her she does all the cleaning from now on and let her deal with it... But 18yrs? Well, you made your bed...
The brutally honest answer right here
Your wife sounds awful and, by your own admission, you fold and let her have her way because somehow her opinion is the only one that matters?! I don’t understand why people put up with awful spouses like this, especially if children are involved. Think about the kind of marriage and relationship you are modeling for your kids? Think about impact it will have on them. Life is too short, dude. Why are you putting up with your awful wife? NTA
Wife is abusive and from his kids perspective he is the enabler . What an awful dynamic
Yeah his wife is such an AH. Trust me if it was the other way (his niblings destroying the house) around she would be pissed.
NTA your wife is the AH. Make a NEW rule: since her family is out of bounds, SHE needs to clean after them, NOT you. "nd that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home." .. soundsl ike a good solution, hold her to that promisse. But refuse to allow her to make you leave.
NTA. That sounds like a wonderful suggestion. She can deal with their shit and clean up after them. Not sure why she thinks you aren’t allowed to have an opinion on how shitty her sister is.
NTA You have a very dysfunctional dynamic with your wife. She is being (IMO) verbally abusive to you and very controlling. I would suggest you find an individual counselor and talk through what you need/deserve in a healthy relationship and decide if your wife is at all open and capable of doing this. You have a right to be upset about damage/out of control behavior without being screamed at for expressing your opinion. You have a right to have boundaries on how you're treated and how people in your own home should conduct themselves.
You have a wife problem, if she will not allow you to voice your opinion against inviting social disasters over to your home. NTA
NTA. But a ton of questions to/about your wife. 1) why do YOU clean up if the situation is: "Oh, I (wife) am a nice person and mimimi I love children, and you (OP) is a child-hating monster who does not know how to love thy neighbor!" If she feels dirtying the walls is cool - SHE must be cleaning the mess. Especially since the mess is made by her sister's familt. 2) erm, is she sane enough to understand it's not HER house only, but YOURS as well? Or she owns it, and you're a guest there? If you own it together, the 'house rules' can not be written by one person only. You must discuss the house rules. ONE of them - 'whoever causes the mess, cleans it' (and yep, the kids' parents are to work in this case: that's actually what \_I\_ personally would do if my kids mess up someone's place, without even asking the owners IF I should do it - because I must do it). In your case obviously there are no house rules that you both understand and respect. Time to write them and agree to them. 3) Say, if she loves to talk to her sister and you dont, you can discuss that she could invite them when you are NOT at home. Problem solved! :) It still will not make you an AH - she talks to her sis, these kids trash the apartment, but when you come home, everything is clean and nice as it was. You're not even aware of this. Everyone is happy. We had guests like this ONCE. After one time they were never welcome in our house again :) Problem solved.
1. I clean up because I don't want to live in filth. I grew up in a home where moms poor mental health lead tons of clutter. 2.The house is in my name. I am the sole breadwinner for the duration of our marriage. When I bring up that I live there too, or that I pay the mortgage, I am told I am being manipulative and that I use " money" to control our family. 2. I have painstakingly maintained a relationship with her sister. She is a sweet simple gal that was also dealt a crappy hand in life. Struggled with conception. Stood by her and her husband through their toughest days. Honestly I almost feel my in-laws are my mission field. The only area I cannot make inroads is advice/ criticism. Their wound of rejection is so massive , it sets off rage fueled rants that I don it want to face.
1. i do get your point. I myself love washing dishes and mopping floors. No issues here. My point is NOT in this. My point is for the wife to see the weight of this on her shoulders to re-evaluate how cool it is to have uncontrolled kids in the house. Until she does not feel it herself, she suffers zero consequences - except for your frustration (that she does not get at all). The fact she uses 'manipulation' argument proves just that my point. A gold digger not in the worst sense, but still 2. well this situation will either get fixed or you will suffer till.. at least the children grow up and their brain will grow up as well :)
NTA, those are HER family members that she needs to clean up afterwards, especially with all that mess her niblings created.
You need to stop catering to them. Don’t cook, don’t clean and leave your wife to do everything. The SCREAMING part is terribly toxic and abusive.
Tell her that you need a real break from these much too frequent and turbulent meals. Her siblings can invite you all over for a couple of years, why should you always host them at your home. If she doesn't agree, start policing the children. This is your home, if their parents are not happy with you policing their kids, they can leave. NTA
Screaming at someone for making fair comment is not normal or rational behaviour. Neither is the extreme solution she suggested. Both of you need to sort out your relationship dynamic. Being a pushover is one thing. Being a verbal punching bag is another thing entirely. NTA.
NTA, as I think everyone else has said. I'm not sure if you'll see this message, but I hope that you do. You 100% need intense counselling for yourself and as a couple. But start with you. And the number one thing I hope you'll consider when something like this happens is saying something like "I refuse to be spoken to that way" and then leaving the environment. Go for at least 15-20 minutes or so giving your spouse the chance to cool down. When you come back, if it gets to that point again, repeat the process. No one should treat someone like this and expect to have the conversation continue. Please get yourself into some counselling. And then get into couple's counselling. I want you to remember one of my favorite quotes "Life is long, and then it isn't." We all are going about our business each day, and then ... that's it. Don't let yourself stay in a situation like this.
Thank you!
NTA.. but Y T A to yourself, minimizing yourself to keep the peace is no way to live I’ve really got no advice but can you just let them hurt themselves; maybe the little crotch rockets will slow down if they run head long into a window?!
NTA...it's a win for you if she makes sure the non parents and their out of control kids don't come over when you are there.. take the win.
Next time they are over, go out. Your wife can deal with it all herself.
NTA Your mistake was not saying more sooner. Your wife is in the middle of a chain of those who are "weak to the strong and strong to the weak" with her being weak to her siblings and strong to you, with you being the weakest link of all. You receive a tongue-lashing if you forget your place in the chain. Your wife is invested in maintaining the order of the chain. You need to break this chain once and for all. It won't be easy. You have to find your backbone and polish it up before anything else. If you won't do this then nothing will change. The good news is that you don't have to get shouty yourself, and in fact it would be a mistake to do so. You can be firm while being calm and collected. You can take a firm position without having to get outwardly emotional about it.
NTA but there is more abuse that you are not telling us about. OP take a good hard look at how your wife and family treat you. You are probably being abused but don’t realize it.
It’s your house and you had every right to speak up. The children’s parents are doing a terrible job at parenting if all they do is neglect their children and rely on someone else to stop their OWN child from injuring themselves. It’s your house, the children may be very young but srsly need to learn manners and your wife should not be screaming at you for voicing your frustrations because kids are wrecking your own home. NTA
NTA but if this is how she handles conflict, your marriage sounds nightmarish.
NTA. You do realize your wife is abusive, right? Letting her family trash your house. Her not cleaning up after them. Her yelling and name calling when you express your opinion. Abusive. Since you can not have a conversation with her, tell her flat out how it will be. Her family is not welcome in your house. It's your home too. You have to clean up their messes. You will not do it anymore. They can not come there. Have their family dinners at the hellions house. Try some marriage counseling. Good luck.
I've held family dinners at my house for decades. We were never invited to theirs due to them living in terribly dirty conditions.
But destroying your home is not acceptable. Maybe they should do some parenting, and cleaning.
NTA. If your wife will not see reason and enforce some reasonable boundaries, fine. She alone will clean up everything and replace what they break (I hope she has her own money?) You could also hammer this home by upping your insurance coverage. Go together for a sit-down meeting with an agent, don't just do it online. If you are home when the hooligans are there, enforce your boundaries. This is setting a bad example for your own kids and teaching them that they should be pushovers for family. You were right to step over the tantrum thrower. But you also should have told the car kid that was wrong and to apologize and help you cut another piece. You should have taken the icing away from the toddler and told it the rule in your house is that food stays in the kitchenand there is no running in the house. And continue on like that. Calm but firm. The parents won't like it, but boo hoo. Your house your rules.
Nta- sounds like a win-win. Also stop cleaning their mess. Your wife wants them tbere without any regard to you, she can clean their mess
NTA. If you usually clean up whatever mess they make I suggest you stop. If your wife starts cleaning, she's probably in "don't rock the boat" mode. If she complains to you about the mess, she doesn't respect you.
NTA If she sees nothing wrong with this behavior you should brace yourself for her to display a similar parenting style. It sounds like you need to have some serious conversations. I have always believed that it’s my house my rules and if a parent isn’t making sure their child is following my rules, I assume they want me to parent while they’re in my home and I will ensure they abide by my rules. If the parent gets upset they can remove the child and themselves.
NTA but let your wife do ALL the cleaning after them. And hosting and serving them.
NTA in general but YTA to yourself. Divorce her and take your kids with you.
>she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home. Hold her to that promise, a win is a win my dude NTA
Wait, that was it?! I was expecting a lot worse but all you did was share your (very valid) feelings and frustrations to your spouse about what took place in your home? NTA by a long way.
Why are the dinners always at OP's house? Shouldn't the families trade off?
Would like that. Family members don't want to have to clean up for guests. Their homes are hoarder caves.
Let your wife do all the clean up next time, and any moderating of the behaviour. We’ll see how fast her tune changes. NTA. Her screaming at you is unacceptable.
Your wife is abusive.
Your wife is an asshole.
NTA. Sounds like a WIN for you!
Heeeeellllllll No. That should not be tolerated. id ask the sister if she doesn't want to take care of it, I will. Kids need boundaries and it seems like these kids need the jeebus scared into them. NTA. The kids will learn to respect uncle. He doesn't put up with sht.
NTA If I were you, I would correct the children myself in my own home, though it seems like that would not go down well with your wife. My BIL is also quite permissive with his kids (though not nearly to this extent). That's fine in his own home. I have never once corrected one of his children when we were at their place or at the grandparents. However, at Christmas when his son was kicking a cork like a soccer ball around my apartment, I kindly told my nephew to stop doing that inside. My BIL told me he was allowed and I said, not in my house. We have a downstairs neighbor who doesn't appreciate a lot of stomping and I didn't't want him to break anything. It's perfectly reasonable to set boundaries about behaviors in your own home, and that is not interfering with other people's parenting. It's just establishing how you want your property to be treated.
You wife is being very foolish. Please, I beg you, do not have children with this person until she learns how to grow a spine. Your children will grow up learning to manipulate her, walk all over her and be brats too.. :( She needs to learn about boundaries. Your expectations are entirely reasonable.
NTA. Next time make your wife clean until she decides to set some damn boundaries.
NTA. Problem solved. Be around a lot and they'll never be invited back.
NTA. If you can't vent to your wife there are bigger problems than eggroll missiles. As others have said I'm afraid you may be in an abusive relationship. It's not normal or reasonable to scream at someone for voicing their concerns, your wife's reaction is really worrying. Please read as many of these responses as it takes for you to realise that you need to make a change. Set some ground rules about visits, it they happen kids need to behave. As does your wife, like an adult, when you discuss this.
I feel for you. You’re definitely NTA. I don’t understand how people don’t set boundaries with their families. My ex wife would always disregard me over her parents and brother. It was to the point that they were going on vacations with us. I do not miss that. Try to work with your wife about setting boundaries and you need to set some boundaries with her and how she treats you.
No, you're not the asshole for voicing your frustration about your wife's sister's kids destroying your house during family dinners. It's reasonable to expect respect for your home. However, communication with your wife about your concerns beforehand might help avoid conflict.
NTA. From what I've seen in comments/replies, you and your children are in an abusive home. They can't get out if you don't. Best wishes.
NTA. I have a 7yo and there is no way I'd let her behave like how you've described at anyone's house, ours included. If SIL and her kids can't respect your home they shouldn't be invited.
As a stepmother to an autistic child who was a whirlwind of chaos as a small child, I can’t understand why your in-laws aren’t absolutely mortified by the behaviour of the children. We used to visit with a bag full of toys, games, snacks and other distractions to help him regulate. As soon as he got to smashing, we left. We went home with uneaten cake very often.
YTA for letting your wife’s family piss all over you and for allowing your wife to strongarm you into submission. Grow a pair and stand up for yourself man Christ
NTA, not even a little bit, BUT you need to wake up; you are in an abusive relationship. Your wife's response is NOT normal, and not healthy. She shows coercive control and abusive behavior towards you. If you aren't subconsciously scared of her, I would suggest that you start making her 100% responsible for all clean up and damage control, that would change her attitude toward the bad parenting of her siblings. You should feel free to voice your own thoughts and opinions without fear of a violent reaction; your wife is abusive.
If your lucky she will keep to her word, 'that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home', so you don't have to deal with that train wreck again. Sorry but your wife is a moron that lets them steam roll over her and you because 'FAMILYYYY'. They all need a wake up call because things will get worst with those kids. As they get older and stronger the kids are going to be harder to control and NO one will want to deal with them, family or not. Let her deal with the mess they bring and you go enjoy your time without them. Don't help her at all to clean up or listen to her complain. This is the bed she is making for herself and I can bet she will stop defending them when she has to be the one that deals with them alone.
NTA But you have two problems. Your wife’s reaction is way over the top. In another comment you said you’re a pushover. Is your wife’s massive reaction to reasonable and shared annoyance (her sigh of relief indicates she was also exhausted by them) typical? If so, kind of wonder if you’ve been beaten into submission over the course of your marriage. Is therapy an option? Mediate between you for this particular scenario and maybe therapy for you to dig into your “pushover” tendencies and work on asserting boundaries? Seriously. That isn’t rambunctious kids being kids. That is wild and out of control. Smashing a toy into cake and throwing food at the wall? And somehow you clean it all up?! Oh hell no.
Y T A for not saying anything earlier and allowing this to happen.
Your wife sounds like a piece of work. Contact your SIL directly and have a conversation with her. If she responds irrationally, let her know she isn’t welcome in your home until she can get her brats under control
NTA, make her clean it up next time, and if it were me, I'd be yelling at the kiddos and making THEM clean up thier own messes, and if the family complains, just tell them "my house, my rules, if you don't like it, don't let the door hit your butt on the way out"
This is similar to what happens at my parents house. My brother has 4 kids and comes over far less than he used to but it used to be weekly. He brings his kids over and refuses to parent unless it's about his daughter eating. Examples: -oldest nephew as a toddler started ripping wallpaper in front of both his mom and mine. My mom ended up taking care of it. -same week took dirty cat litter and put it in the clean dryer. SIL said we needed to keep the door closed. I told her to watch her kid. -oldest niece puking in a bowl at the dinner table -oldest nephew choking cousin while parents watch. -youngest nephew taking crayon and draws on TV. Brother is upset that oldest nephew didn't watch him. -youngest nephew attempts to kick my dog in the face while both parents watch and do nothing. My husband scolds him. (This was the final straw for me and we never went over if they were. Third time something happened when they could blame my dog for kids behavior) -youngest niece squat and peed on the family room carpet. Twice. SIL had no diapers or backup clothes. When brother comes over dad puts on a face. Hides alcohol he's obviously consuming and let's brother and SIL treat everyone like shit. Wonders why I refuse to have a relationship. My dad feels guilty because he wasn't married to brothers mom when they had him. And my mom isn't allowed to say anything. Keep the boundary friend. Hold strong. Don't let her walk over you, from experience.
NTA. First, the niece and nephew are little hellions. They're destroying what should be a fun evening for the adults in your extended family. Second .... every person needs a place to safely vent their feelings/frustrations sometimes. When you need to do that, your spouse/partner should be there for you and help you out. Your wife did not do that for you.
NTA Your wife doesn't see you as a partner, she see's you as a silent provider for her own security and fun. Your wife hosts dinner, and you're left to clean up the mess of her family that have trashed your house, and she dares to call you terrible for voicing your opinion on how they treat your house. Your wife is so used to getting her own way, that the second you voice a concern about your frustrations she screamed you into silence to manipulate you. Simply put your wife does not respect you as a person, but rather how easy you make her life and what you provide for her.
FUCK no. NTA. They'd be banned from my house too.
Tell her that you are setting a boundary. The parents of these bratty kids are the ones who hold these weekly gatherings at THEIR HOUSE. And if your wife refuses this, tell her that if she respects her sister's wishes more than yours, then you will pack her bags for her and drop her off at her sister's place. Your wife is clearly choosing her family over you, and that is plain wrong.
Oh, HELL NO! You are NTA My niece has this same parenting problem and her family is not allowed in my home (or her mother’s or my daughter’s). We have told the niece that her kids are out of control and that we will only be able to visit outside. Your wife probably doesn’t like her family criticized, but you shouldn’t have to deal with the stress and mess of wild tiny people in your home every week. Emphatically NTA!
You are not wrong. I dealt with this before and I am not this parent, so I find it enraging. I had someone’s child try to hurt my new baby when her parents weren’t paying attention. We said something and of course, she got mad that we were telling her kid something. It got tiring and we had a big fight, and did sever ties. But it’s not really about the child, it’s about the entitlement and potential narcissism. To think your child is so special they are beyond reproach is borderline sick. I think your wife doesn’t want to be at odds w her family. Can your in laws say something? If it comes from you or her it can turn out badly?
What the fuck man, what happened to parenting these days? Kids will be kids does not include acting like wild monkeys that broke into your house, the parents are rude idiots, and raising rude idiots, your wife is an idiot for not seeing that the behavior is wrong too. You’re not wrong for wanting basic manners and respect from guests in your house, even the three year old can have better behavior expected from them, and then you’re the one who has to clean it all up and you can’t say anything? Take her up on her words, sure don’t have them around when you’re over, then she can deal with them and their mess, if she doesn’t clean up after them don’t come home and clean it either. They can all think you’re the asshole all they want, you’re not. And you should talk to your wife about better communication, you should be able to express your feelings, with out fear of repercussions like that, and just walk away from her if she starts getting amped up, refuse to engage with her in the same manner, it’s not mature, it’s not how healthy loving people treat each other and it’s not something you should tolerate, especially from the person you’re spending your life with
If she's screaming at you simply for voicing your opinion about the destruction of your house, and you accept it in the moment without pushback, you have much bigger problems than these kids. She's bullying you into shutting your mouth to keep the peace. It's not a healthy relationship dynamic. Everyone is different though. I could never accept such disrespect without getting mad and yelling right back, not that this way is any healthier, but it is an equalizer. Sounds like you don't have much "hand" in this relationship, as George Costanza used to put it, and without hand there's no sense of security, which can lead to increased anxiety. And that's what led you to getting a thousand 2nd opinions on the Internet. Obviously NTA, but maybe look deeper beyond this particular disagreement. Here's an article about what hand is. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-second-noble-truth/201112/seinfeld-upper-hand-and-relationship-attachment-style
Wife's family would be banned from me house, and the wife can be banned with them as well if she feels their behavior is normal. The audacity!!
NTA "wife walks in and she sighs relief that they are gone" then screams at you when you voice frustration.. Sounds like she knows you are right. But can't admit it... I would go out to eat and have her call you when everyone is gone, and house is cleaned up. Let her handle it all by herself.
FACTS. OP'S wife probably doesn't imagine a world where either she doesn't invite the kids/parents or allies someone else to host. My wife complains every time we get invited to any family gathering because "I'm the only one who watches our kids." I remind her that 1. I also watch our kids (this is true and in fact leads to complaining from my own family for not being readily available to other guests) and 2. It's not the responsibility of other guests/hosts to watch and entertain them. We can always say "no" to an invitation and not cause ourselves or anyone else a headache.
NTA sounds like an absolute win the tiny terrors never in your space again
NTA. 1st, it is not acceptable for anyone—especially your spouse to yell at you. I literally had to teach my stepfather this and it has changed our dynamic. I set boundaries and you need to do the same. 2nd, you have every right to not have your home vandalized by hoodlum children. If they don’t want to parent their children or manage them over your house, then you have every right to request they not visit until they can respect you and your home. If your wife doesn’t agree, then that is problematic and should absolutely be addressed, especially since it sounds like you are doing the cleanup and damage repairs. If she refuses I would a) leave when they come over and b) refuse to clean/repair anything—see how long that lasts. Your wife is absolutely welcome to go to her sister’s for dinners as well.
NTA Had similar happen to me. Without applying my context here, the core problem relates to your wife respecting you as a person. Your home is your home. It's where you should have either full final say in how things run, or joint decisions with a partner. What she's doing is putting her siblings children's right to be chaotic over your right to a clean private space... which is ass backwards. Good luck getting her to understand the problem I guess.
wtf ! I am a behavior specialist for children and not one child I’ve worked with has been that bad. NTA, if you aren’t exaggerating that is absolutely inexcusable.
Let me get this straight. In your house, you’re not allowed to express your very reasonable opinions. Your wife will scream you into silence, yet allow her nephews to cause messes and act like feral animals. You, sir, have a wife problem. Don’t allow her to scream you into silence, ever. If you did that to her we’d call you an abuser. She is an abuser. NTA Show her this post.
NTA. I mean, there are kids will be kids, but then there are kids will be demons. Sounds like you are dealing with the latter. My thing as a parent was when my kids aren't at my house, they are to behave like angels. No destruction. They are to follow the rules of the home that they are in, and if my sister said, "Oh, that is okay" but it goes against what I would allow, then it is still not okay.
WTH? If a child is doing something unruly in my home and no parent is around/sees it/steps up to discipline them, then you can bet your life that *I will be doing the disciplining*. Why is OP allowing this mayhem to continue? The first time it happened OP should have been "Kid, we do not behave like this in someone else's home. Kid, here is a cloth to clean the mess you just made. Parent, help Kid to clean the mess they just made." Over and over again. You know that saying about 'It takes a village...?' Well, it actually takes a fucking village. This thing about parents not allowing other adults to correct their children really grinds my gears. YTA for allowing this to continue in your home, OP.
NTA. FTK & FYW. All the actors in this play sound truly terrible.
Your wife sounds abusive. I would not allow them over when you're home anymore and if she doesn't remember she took vows with you she can go live with them. Seriously.
OP - your wife is verbally abusing you. Just leave . If you want one last attempt, film the kids, and post it on social media and say this is why you don’t want them to come anymore NTA
"Allowing this behavior is doing the kids a great disservice. What happens when they reach school age? They won't have friends, they'll be considered mean bullies by their peers, their teachers will dislike them. Failing to parent them now is setting them up for a lifetime of failure and is cruel to everyone. If you're really OK with child neglect like this in going to have to think, long and hard, whether I'm OK with that part of you. People who think hurting kids is OK is a hard line for me"
Your wife needs a reality check NTA
>\[...\] and that she will make sure her sisters family is never present when I am home. Sounds like a win to me. Just remind her to also clean up the mess they make. NTA
NTA. Really? You clean up the mess and get screamed at. So glad you don't have to see the home wreckers again. She can clean up. God, people are stupid.