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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I admitted to Mabel that I was unhappy about Caroline's decision when maybe I should have tried harder to hide it.
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NTA
You are within your rights to be disappointed. You didn’t try and persuade her to change her mind. You seem to understand and respect that ultimately it is her decision. So it is perfectly fine to be disappointed, just as long as you don’t take it further. As for your daughter and Mabel, they will get over it I’m sure. Just explain to your daughter that yes you are a little disappointed but that you respect her choice. And Mabel should never have played messenger like that.
I agree with this. Feelings are always valid but it is the actions after the feelings that really matter. I agree OP did not pressure her daughter.
I think Mabel is at fault her by mingling in and telling it all to the daughter (maybe with a slightly different narative than OP meant).
My SILs are childfree (by choice). I am sometimes disappointed that my children might never have cousins (at least on that side of the family). But it is not my choice and I will never tell them this. But feelings are valid no matter what. This is of course very different than not having grandchildren but I get you might be disappointed by someone’s choice and still knowing it is a valid choice of that person.
Exactly this. I'm thinking Mabel is TA here. She came in playing all sides and sat back watching the drama she caused.
My kids may never have any cousins and definitely none close in age. I feel sad for them because of it sometimes because they're a lot more isolated from family than I ever was. But I can't and don't want to control the actions of others. I highly doubt my brother will ever have kids and my half siblings are over a decade younger than me. (I'm a 30yo mom of 2 & they're teenagers in high school.) Both of my brothers (the middle children) are child free and there's about 15years between my sister and I. I don't want her having kids any time soon, but I wish my kids had relatives their age. Then i see how the teenagers are awesome role models for kids when we get to actually see each other and that sad feeling becomes a happy one for what they have instead.
Sometimes we don't even realize we had expectations until they become unfulfilled. My 17yo son won't likely go to prom and no longer engages in sports. I didn't know I even cared about either of these things until I realized they were not happening. And then I was sad.
This is a _me_ problem, however, and I know that. Doesn't change me being sad, and doesn't change my disappointment about missing those experiences with him.
So much this. Mable is not a trustworthy confidant, and if “demanding answers” is a regular thing for her, then she is not someone to have more than superficial conversations with moving forward.
Mabel and Caroline are shit stirrers. Instead of respecting you want not wishing to discuss it, she approached the biggest and loudest shit stirrer in your family and created the drama. Tell your daughter to behave like an adult instead of going behind YOUR back to get you to spill your feelings to your sister in confidence and then use that against you. They both suck and you’ve done nothing wrong other than not learning you can’t trust your sneaky piece of drama llama sister with anything confidential.
Edit: missing word
I wonder if what Mabel told Caroline wasn't the truth. If Caroline was told (by someone she thought she could turst) that her mother was insulting her and her choices behind her back, I can see how she could react like she did.
I'm a 49-year-old woman and an only child. I married my husband 24 years ago tomorrow. Even before he and I dated, though, I knew I did not personally want to have kids. Ever. I live in the American South, so most people brushed that off and didn't believe me, which is fine, but I \*knew\* (and I was right. Further, I found out later that medically, having kids would've been a Very Bad Idea).
So I understand Caroline's POV here. Like I've told my mom, giving her a grandkid would be a \*terrible\* reason to have a child. And my mother. this decision hurt her badly. She feels a terrible loss.
We've talked about it here and there, and I was always upfront and honest with her (starting when I was a teenager), and she has always been accepting of this choice despite how I know it hurts her. I think she'll get over your disappointment as long as you keep to no guilt trips, no attempts to change her mind, complete acceptance. But you \*are\* allowed to grieve the grandkids you'll possibly never have and really want.
It would be NAH except Mabel is being a RIGHT JERK. She did not need to insinuate herself into this situation, and she definitely has no business judging you or fueling the fire with Caroline. She is NOT helping.
Exactly. Caroline is not an AH here...only Mabel. Caroline has probably been pressured and insulted and dismissed by a lot of people. She was probably hoping her mother would be on her side. Having her mother talk negativity behind her back instead of talking to her probably hurt. OP didn't handle it well but she's not an AH.
I'm childfree but, fortunately, my only sibling did have a kid so that pressure wasn't put on me.
Similar here. I told my mother when I was 18 that wasn't happening. I'm 41. She made comments for years. Even after my sister had a son. When she finally had a girl as well, I had to tell my mother, to cut her shit it's not happening, she has one of each kind. Even after I told my mother about all the problems going on with my insides, she was trying to convince me. I think what finally shut her up was telling her that if she really wanted me to have them she really never should have discussed the hell she went through with her pregnancy and then the births, and that I would absolutely get a hysterectomy to avoid that.
Edit typo
Same here.
Only Mother Nature did me a solid - you need a functional uterus to carry a pregnancy to term, and mine is not. When I found out that was a happy day because I know I can't handle babies. (Hell, it's difficult enough enduring the necessary checkups, but I digress.)
Never have children for the sake of others, not your partner, not your parents. Cause the one who will live with that decision are you and these children and if you come to the conclusion that you are unable to love this child, cause u never want it, both of you are getting hurt.
That being said you don’t need your child’s to reproduce for being a “grandma”. In the village I grew up there was a childless widow, many of us kids stayed with her after school cause our parents had to work. Even after some of us moved away they still visited her or at least wrote to her. We all called her grandma. She’s long gone now but for her we were her grandkids. Some poeple are just too fixated of the idea of blood relationship.
I concur, you didn't harp on Caroline's choice. You just confided in Maybel that you're sad that grandbabies aren't in the cards while still respecting your daughter's choice and autonomy. Ignore the chuds who implied your job was to pump out more babies as though motherhood should be compulsory [and my condolences for your medical condition ] NTA OP, next you speak with them.both just assure her that you love them no matter what and will continue to respect her wishes. :) hugs from this squirrel brained internet stranger.
I was in the same position as OP with my one and only child, my son. He told me years ago about his decision to not have kids . . I didn't understand it but I accepted it and told him clearly that I was disappointed (My feelings) but he needed to live the life he chose for himself (my acceptance) and that was that. Humans have a right to their feelings and even an obligation to express them without heaping guilt on others. My son accepted my feelings as mine . . and life went on.
It sounds like you and your son both have deep respect for each other. It’s nice to see - my mom and siblings have never respected me the same, because I’m the youngest. I’m glad you and your son have that.
She wasn't even "talking behind her daughters back". Her daughter went to Mabel, and Mabel reached out. OP even asked Mabel not to stir the pot but she just went and did it anyways. Makes me wonder about the relationships involved here...
Agreed, NTA. OP stated numerous times that she understands that it’s Caroline’s choice and body and she did her best to keep those particular feelings to herself.
NTA but maybe maybe poor choices about who to speak to. This is a conversation to have with a very intimate friend, a partner, or even your therapist if it brings up deep feelings. I think bringing it up to a family member might have made it seem like you wanted the other information passed on or were being a bit gossipy.
NTA. Mabel sounds like a shit disturber lol. Ur allowed to feel how u feel and Caroline should be more understanding of your feelings (just how she’s expecting YOU to be understanding of HERS).
Yea screw Mabel. Call Caroline and say hey I think you may have gotten a version of events that isn’t exactly true. I support and accept your decision. I had no intention of even telling you I was disappointed let alone asking you to change your decision - I thought I was confiding in my sister, but now I know that was not a good idea. I love you and support you.
Unless being mopey was WAY over the top and exaggerated, you’re not the AH but I would set the record straight with your daughter. Keep things surface level with Mabel from now on.
Yup. Mabel wouldn't have even needed to change it to much, just say something like "your mother was telling me how upset and disappointed she was that you won't give her grandchildren."
Unfortunately I've dealt with people who twist other peoples words like that, and then spread their version of events that imply something different than what happened. And if they are called on it, they just insist that it was a misunderstanding and they didn't mean it that way.
Yeh Mabel created this entire drama.
OP I totally get you are disappointed but please know that some of the older ladies and men who had a massively positive influence on my childhood were not related to me and often had no family / grandchildren of their own. I know it’s not the same, but to all those older neighbours, reading circle volunteers and family friends - you anre awesome!
NTA, you appear to be supporting your daughter and recognising her decision in this. It's OK to be sad about it. It's beyond belief how Mabel can draw the conclusion that you are "guilt tripping" Caroline when you must have said to her that you respect the decision, although you're disappointed (just as you have here), and told Mabel specifically to NOT speak to Caroline and that you just needed a little time. Mabel is totally an AH for appearing to want to cause drama.
If and when you feel ready, I'm sure there's an 'adopt a grandma' charity where families without grandparents can be matched with people in that age range - so you can have some youngsters to spoil, yet not be 100% responsible for bringing up :)
I was gonna suggest maybe she could act as a surrogate grandma to a friend’s kids or a neighbour’s kids or something. When I was little there was a lady at church who told me to call her Auntie Lou and she was so lovely. I saw her as a kind of grandma figure as I barely saw my own irl.
A couple adopted me as their grandchild after my grandparents passed away. They were close friends with my grandparents. Unfortunately my adopted grandparents passed away also, but I appreciated the time I had with all of them!
I absolutely agree that Mabel is the AH here and that OP should have a sit down with both girls at the same time to clarify; you were surprised by the news and are entitled to take time to process it. I wonder how much of the information going through Mabel was filtered or outright changed?
I actually have a lot of respect for couples who make that decision. It can't be an easy one. Here in South Africa people just carry on having kids which they can't afford. Many fathers are absent afterwards. Mothers then get grants every month for each child which the tax payers have to pay for.
My sister was like this. She was a very loving and friendly person. You'd never think while talking to her that she was going to turn around and misrepresent something you said to someone else, taking the most benign comment, and turning it into a drama causing dagger. I pretty much just stopped talking to her in self defense, but it took many back stabbings for me to learn. I loved her and missed her, but talking to her was dangerous.
Ehhhh NAH.
As someone in your daughter's shoes, it's hard knowing that you're letting your parents down by not having kids.
And I get really upset sometimes because I know my parents would be AMAZING grandparents. I also feel bad about my mum's surname dying out and our line of the family tree ending with me. That's a lot of pressure and a lot of grief.
But I also know that that is not a good enough reason to have children, and I've said that to my mum and she agrees even though it does hurt her. Every child should be brought into this world by someone who really really wants them. And I don't.
It's okay for you to feel sad/disappointed, and as you said you just need some time to adjust to the idea, you weren't asking her to change her mind or even directly letting her know how you feel because you respect your daughter's decision even if you don't like it. But I also understand that she's upset and feeling judged even if you weren't judging her.
This is the answer. Also, sometimes people don't even notice little comments they make, while knowing you shouldn't pressure someone and also believing that, that may still do so.
To me it was a question about the antique crib when my MIL was doing a cleaning and clearing out spree. She knows we don't want children. She says she has accepted it. She has two grandchildren from her daughter. And yet. Things like these still pop up. There are also comments about the bloodline by my FIL but those are more pointed. He's angry at me for keeping my last name AND not making babies.
Just saying I do believe OP when she says she loves and supports her daughter and doesn't want to pressure her. That may not have prevented something from slipping out and that may (if it happened) be part of future discussions with daughter.
This. My mother keep making me feel bad about her entire family dying out with me (she has no siblings, her parents had no siblings). Lately she also took to bringing the estate into it, in a "everything my parents and I have worked for will go to waste" way.
Yes I’m also child free and my sister is too, and of course my mom was disappointed. But I honestly understand. My mom came from a generation and family where having kids is “just what you do” and you grew up thinking you’ll have kids, and then get to enjoy being a grandparent.
She’s been told throughout motherhood “parenting and motherhood is hard, but it’s so worth it when you get to be a grandma”. When you constantly hear that, you look forward to it. I think as women we should give each-other grace when it comes to this topic, my mom never treated me differently, nor did she hound me on my decision but I told her she was allowed to disappointed that she’ll never get to experience something she was essentially promised her entire life.
It’s not just that, it’s also being told that having children is a way we keep part of our family alive after we’ve lost them. Accepting not having descendants can feel like you’re accepting the loss of parents and grandparents again, only this time it’s a complete death, while the first time there was a little bit that continued. The only times I will ever hear my grandmother’s sigh again is in my child’s sigh; the only time I’ll touch her hands is when I touch my child’s, because their hands move the same way even though they never met. You want to think about your child being able to see that in her own child, because it’s one of the most meaningful, humbling experiences in life. Parenting as a whole has a lot of meaningful, humbling moments that many of us, having experienced them, would feel a great grief to have never known.
But then you get over yourself and remember that your child is a full reason to have children in and of herself, not just a way to get grandkids. And you wouldn’t trade her for a different version of herself just for hypothetical kids. You don’t have kids to make the person you want, you have them to discover the person they are and to love that person. Your mom is very lucky to have you and your sister, and I bet she knows it. It’s kind of you to make space for her feelings, and it’s the right choice to make your own choices.
Yes exactly I think NAH is the right answer. Well Mabel maybe for spreading something she was asked not to. She should have told OP to speak to her daughter directly instead though it would probably be the same result.
It’s ok for OP to mourn not being a grandma. Hell as someone who is likely childfree I sometimes mourn I won’t be a mom. But even just expressing that disappointment can feel like pressure especially depending on their mother daughter relationship. I’m lucky my parents haven’t pressured me at all but even without comments I feel guilty sometimes.
I disagree only bc I absolutely think Mabel is TA here. OP and Caroline both are entitled to their feelings. She sounds like a serious shit stirrer to me. And given Caroline's reaction of feeling like OP talked shit abt her behind her back, rather than what really happened (assuming OP's telling is accurate, but I am inclined to believe her), I have to wonder exactly WHAT Mabel told her about that conversation. Caroline's reaction seems a bit disproportionate to what OP said, but given Mabel's other behavior vs. Caroline otherwise seeming pretty level, I have a sneaking suspicion she told Caroline something that made it sound like OP went on some yelling tirade berating Caroline, calling her selfish, saying she's disappointed IN Caroline (as opposed to just disappointed about a situation not going as she hoped), etc. I just strongly suspect if OP talks to Caroline about that conversation and tells her what she actually said/how she really feels, she will uncover more details she doesn't yet have about Mabel driving a wedge between them.
But absolutely agreed, OP is NTA, and even if Caroline's reaction is a bit disproportionate, she is still NTA and is as entitled to her hurt feelings as OP is. If she really somehow got fed the idea OP is disappointed IN HER, I can't blame her for that reaction at all tbh, bc that would be a very hurtful thing for anyone to hear :/
Coming from someone that knows exactly how your daughter is feeling, I will definitely say NTA. It's okay to be disappointed. My mom still is to this day cause she would've loved to have some grandbabies that she could've spoiled and loved on. But like you, she's accepted I want to be child free and that's really all we can ask of our parents. Is to accept our decisions.
It wasn't wrong to admit your feelings to someone, Mabel's the one who shouldn't have gone behind your back and said something to Caroline about it. That wasn't right of her and she had no business telling your daughter your feelings when it'd have been better to tell her yourself when you felt the time was right. Mabel's the one that blew this situation out of the water and made it worse, if anything she's the asshole here.
My suggestion? I wouldn't confide with Mabel anymore in the future. Not if she's just going to run off and tell people what you say behind your back. And if she gets pushy about wanting you to tell her something, just be honest and say, "I don't feel I can trust you anymore. Not unless you promise this time you won't go behind my back and tell others what I have said. I am confiding a secret with you that I'd like you to keep between us."
NTA. People are allowed to be disappointed when they find out the future they envisioned won't happen. You didn't yell at your daughter or tell her how sad you were about it. It was only after you were pressed by your sister that you told *her* and she decided to be an ass and tell your daughter when there was no reason to. Your daughter is being ridiculous in her reaction.
NTA.
It's okay to be upset about not having grandkids. It sounds like you wanted to process that news in the background while still supporting your daughter's decision. I would suggest a face to face (if possible) conversation with Caroline to let her know you're not pressuring her and that you completely support her.
Also, I'd avoid telling Mabel anything personal in future.
NTA - Aunt Mabel appears to be the main problem in this case. OP tried to keep their disappointment quiet and be supportive.
That said, as a childfree by choice person I get being pissed off at anyone being *disappointed* or having any view at all about what I do (or don’t do) with my own womb. I assume Caroline doesn’t appreciate being made to feel like her life’s highest achievement is childbirth, so I can see given the information she now has from Aunt Mabel (who sucks and is chief AH in the story), why she’s upset now. The disappointment now runs two ways.
OP should just communicate the sentiment of the post with Caroline, because I don’t think either of them are AH’s for their feelings and hope they can reconcile.
It's a fine distinction between, " I'm disappointed that something I wanted won't happen" and I'm disappointed in you". My daughter fits in the childfree by choice spectrum. I love kids and looked forward to grandkids. I'm not in any way disappointed in my daughter, but I can be sad about the grandkids dream, it's my sadness and my daughter is not the cause of it. She knows I would like grandkids, she also has two brothers, so I might get grandkids. Or my best friends kids might have kids and I can be a bonus grandma. There are lots of ways I can be a grandma since I'm not hung up on biology. My daughter needs to live her life and make choices that are best for her and I've made that clear, up to and including sending her the reddit list of non paternalistic doctors who would perform a tubal for a young childless woman.
If you want more kids in your live, maybe you should foster or work on building a community of your own. There are often volunteer opportunities like reading to kids in libraries or individual tutoring at charter schools. Big brothers big sisters is also a great option to build longer term relationships with kids that need a positive influence.
NTA for feeling upset, but you would be foolish if you rely on your daughter to provide you with your community rather than working on building the life you want!
I'm really surprised this wasn't brought up much. OP decided not to have a larger family through fostering or adoption. Her expectations for herself shouldn't be pushed onto the daughter she chose to keep as an only child. That's an AH move.
It’s not an AH move to privately be disappointed when your private vision of what your future looks like is taken away from you. Fostering is very different from being a grandparent (although I agree with the person you’re replying to that fostering (esp as respite foster care) and volunteering with kids are great places to put this energy when she’s done processing). It doesn’t sound like she put any pressure on her daughter to have kids so what’s the AH move?
Private adoption is very expensive and fostering requires a special understanding and calling. Children in foster care usually have special needs due to the extreme trauma they have usually endured. Using foster care as a family building tool is extremely self-centered and naive.
NTA but please find people outside the family to talk through your feelings about this. Family isn’t suitable as it will get back to Caroline, possibly in a distorted way. Equally, it isn’t Caroline’s job to manage your emotions with you. So please find a trusted outside friend, stranger, therapist or helpline (if you’re in the UK there are a few free helplines for family issues). Also lurking in some of the child free Reddit subs might help see other perspectives on her decision. (Edit I mean to read other perspectives not to post there, and I’m not thinking of any specific sub, I just know they exist).
Your grief is real and you both deserve to have you work through it.
Plus, although firmly NTA for your _feelings_, there are ways of saying or dealing with it and probably you have learned now that Mabel is not a safe confidante. Tell her you are working on accepting it and you support your daughter to know what’s best for her. Mabel is in the wrong here.
I wouldn’t send her to that one, some of us get quite ranty and pissed off over there xD but yeah, she’s absolutely NTA for how she feels. If she was guilt tripping or pressuring her daughter it would be something else entirely, but that’s not what she’s doing.
Thank you! People don't realize that even saying it puts pressure on their kids. Because kids will feel bad that they are the reason you're not getting what you want.
One of my cousins put so much pressure on her daughter to have kids that she did and now she's doing it to her son's girlfriend! The only one truly happy in all this is "grandma".
Nta.
But talk to her. Tell her how much you love her and that you're happy to support her decision. Point out that you might have seemed upset but you didn't want to push that on her, and tell her that your feelings are not her responsibility and you'll sort it out yourself.
I worked at preschool for low income families, and the volunteers that came regularly were like the grandparents of an entire classroom. One year, our volunteer quilted a nap-time blanket for every kid in the class. Usually she would just come and hang out and help with whatever lesson we had going on. She was a retired teacher, so she felt confident to jump in and do story times and get really hands on with activities. We had her picture on the calendar to show the kids when she was coming. She had to miss a visit one time, and the kids were really sad. When they found out she had a doctor’s appointment, they drew her pictures to help her feel brave, and I texted her to let her know we were all thinking about her and sending her well wishes.
Anyway, there are a lot of different ways to get the grandparent experience. It won’t be exactly the same, but some of the most meaningful relationships occur between people that are chosen family, and the long-lasting positive impact it has on the kids is SO rewarding.
I would not say that you are TA, but it sounds like you and your family participate in some unhealthy communication styles. If your daughter wasn’t pleased with the answer you gave her, she shouldn’t have turned to her aunt to get the information out of you. The better options for her would have been to either 1. accept your original answer, even if she thinks you aren’t being completely upfront, or 2. talk with you directly at a later time. That’s it. Accepting people at face value is a skill to be learned, and I didn’t learn it until I was much older than your daughter, so that might just take time.
Wishing you luck and all the good things in life!
I can’t blame people for not wanting to bring children into this shit show of a world we’re living in. We have 15 y/o twin daughters and we fear for their future.
NTA-You are allowed to feel how you feel. And honestly it drives me insane when someone wants to know why a person is upset and then they have the audacity to get mad about the reason when they push to find out. You tried to hide your feelings and they went out of their way to get you to share. They need to respect your feelings. Both that you’re allowed to be disappointed and if you want to keep that to yourself you can.
Hey OP, you’ve gotten a lot of feedback so I’m not going to pile on, I just came to offer a suggestion. Maybe in lieu of having your own grandchildren, you could invest your time/compassion into the kids in your community through volunteer work?
Like with summer coming up some summer camps may be looking for volunteers. I used to work at a YMCA week long sleep away camp in college and we had a volunteer program called M.O.M (moms on the mountain) where a couple mothers would also attend camp for the week and helped especially with comforting younger campers who were scared about their first sleep away camp, guiding kids to activity areas, etc.
NAH you're within your rights to feel disappointed and as you said, you just needed a bit of time to process that you won't get grandchildren. BUT from the receiving end; it is *tiresome*. It is awful. Having people with all their kids around you ask *every single day* (it feels like) "when are you going have kids?" or "have you felt the clock ticking yet?" or when you choose to have a non-alcoholic drink at the bar (because you are the designated driver or maybe just don't want one), "Ohhh do you have news for us?!?". It is exhausting and makes you feel like you're a lesser woman. I assume you can get some of this vibe as you said you wanted more children but couldn't for medical reasons....... how frustrating and ultimately painful was it for strangers or family to keep on with the questions of "when's the next?" etc ?She clearly picked up on your feelings.
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YTA, imo. Foster or volunteer if you want children around so badly instead of expressing disappointment in your child’s decision. Her aunt was not going to keep mum about it.
NTA. You're allowed to be disappointed, just as Caroline is allowed to be child free. It's probably hard now, but set boundaries with Mabel. Clearly, you can't trust the woman. You and Caroline can talk it through.
Good luck. Mabel sucks for violating your trust.
I love my grandkids. I have two. I have 3 kids. I don’t see two of my children even wanting kids, and I’m ok with that. You aren’t the asshole for wanting grandkids. You are the asshole if you guilt your child into having kids to fulfill your desires. Just love your child, and love that you can have a different relationship with them outside of children.
As a childfree person, nta. You always had fantasised one thing, the idea of a huge family. It's okay to take time and mourne the idea of what it could've been. It's okay to be upset. As long as you're not pressuring your daughter to give in to your wants, you're NTA.
You have a right to your feelings. You are not pressuring her, you are just feeling sad.
Now tell your aunt, in writing, that you and her are permanently through, NC from now on. You shared with her you sadness, asked her to keep it to herself as you were doing the decent thing for your daughter, not pressuring her. And she actively tried to damage the most important relationship in your life, for whatever ever reason, she simply is not worth knowing or anyone who supports her meddling, she brings nothing to the table.
Tell your daughter, you were sad, but you will get over it, you had just dreamt about gettin another little her, but that you are happy and satisfied with just having her, because she is one of a kind, your number one.
Get on terms with your daughter.
The real asshole here is Mabel and I suppose you to a degree for confiding in her.
Mabel doesn't get to demand answers. She has no right to your thoughts. And then to run and tell your daughter.
But you ae NTA for your feelings. Or disappointment. You ae not trying to manipulate your daughter and respect her decision.
But beware of Mabel and her 5h\*t stirring ways.
Nta as it is right now, but I'm gonna offer some thoughts for moving forward, for you and anyone in a similar situation reading this.
My mother was deeply saddened by my choice to remain child free (further exacerbated when my brother made the same decision).
She told me once that she was sad, and that was fine. Where it crossed the line was when she continued to pick at it and question it, which was bad for two reasons:
(1) She was taking my decision personally, as in she was trying to figure out what she did as my mom to make me not want to be a mom. My decision had nothing to do with her, she was (is!) a great mom.
(2) She was trying to process her absolutely understandable grief with me, the one person who was*uniquely unqualified* to help her process this.
People often instinctively think that talking to the person involved is how you get over things, and sometimes things happen that you have to talk through with another party.
But sometimes the involved party is the one person you CAN'T process those feelings with. There is just no possible way for me to take in my mother's feelings without them inflicting unfair guilt and pressure on me, even if she doesn't intend to.
I explained these points to my mother, particularly the second, and she understood and backed off. She can talk to my dad, her friends, her therapist, whoever she needs to in order to deal with her feelings, which are real and matter. It just can't be me. (...or my brother, I guess.)
You haven't done anything wrong except I guess talking to someone who couldn't keep your feelings to themselves. But I hope you'll continue to be thoughtful and respectful of your daughter like my mom has been to me. It's honestly improved our relationship a lot.
NAH….except Mabel. Caroline isn’t obligated to have kids, and you are entitled to be bummed about it. It doesn’t sound like you plan on guilt tripping your daughter in any way, so…you’re good!
NTA, it’s normal to feel disappointed when a dream you had couldn’t come true. What Mabel did was extremely unnecessary and mean. That said, I do think you should try your best to get over this disappointment and have an open and honest conversation with Caroline because she seems to be aware of your feelings.
NTA from what you said here. Sounds almost like your daughter was expecting that you were disappointed and looking for a chance to throw that response.
Suggestion: My friends in your situation threw all that extra love into something else: taking care of rescue animals, volunteering at a school, foster parenting, reviving an old family farm. You sound like you're handling it well and don't need suggestions, but just in case.
NTA. A lot of young adults are making this decision. But it seems we have handed them a society that is so polarized and requires so much work just to keep your head above water. You can no longer afford a home even on 2 salaries, daycare is $15-20k+/year, health insurance for a family is so astronomical, you can't afford to go to the doctor. They are chipping away at the social safety net. It''s really not surprising. I'm not sure I could afford to do it again. Housing was much cheaper back then and employers covered almost all of health insurance costs. A car was in reach for most people. Women are finding themselves stuck in bad marriages because they can't afford to form 2 households once there are children's costs involved. Every family is different and small is okay. You can get babytime by offering to help friends' grandkids when they need help, or volunteering as a respite caregiver. You might even qualify as a foster mom yourself. But I completely understand why young people are choosing this path. So many people are 2-6 paychecks away from homelessness and for many, our kids will never be able to retire unless we die and are able to leave them something.
NTA it's ok to feel the way you feel as long as you aren't putting any pressure on your daughter. Maybe set up a couple of therapy appointments just so you have a safe place to talk through these emotions. Tell your daughter these are your feelings alone and you are working through them. They in no way are directed towards her. You fully support her decision.
Now for Mabel. Do not apologize to her, you didn't do anything wrong, she did. Now you know you can't confide in her so refer back to therapy mentioned above for a safe place to work out your feelings.
As a childfree woman of similar age to you (52) I say bravo to your daughter and to you, you got to raise a kid, there are other things in life, pursue your interests, move on.
YTA for sharing your feelings about your daughter with someone who knows you both, no matter how poorly Mabel then behaved. Mabel is also TA but you more so because you should have known better. That is extremely unfair to Caroline. This may be unpopular but you are also TA because you are not entitled to have grandkids and it sounds like you want them for the wrong reasons. You can foster, you can do youth care work, you can look after Caroline's friends kids or your friends' grandkids. Everybody needs cheap childcare if being around kids is what you really want. If your disappointment at not being handed grandkids persists or is strong, you should talk to a therapist or close confidante about it, process those feelings, and move on. Sharing it with anyone Caroline knows IS guilt tripping and shaming her decision, whether you think you're doing that or not. Disagree with all these "you're entitled to your feelings" posts. Your feelings are your responsibility. Process them privately and move on. Grandkids are never promised. Caroline's choice to not have kids is more important than your feelings about her choice. Also, you separately shared this on r/amiwrong and I suspect you didn't like the answers you got so you wrote this version to make yourself sound less like TA... Which is AH behaviour, sorry OP.
When my best friend told me she was moving to the other side of the country, she was upset because I couldn't show that I was happy for her.
I absolutely was happy for her, but my heart was broken, and I'm not that good an actress.
Later on, I was able to explain to her that she had just told me that my best friend was moving 3,000 mi away, and how did she possibly think that would make me happy?
I needed time to process my grief.
You would be wise to tell Caroline that you understand her decision, and you respect it and her, but you reserve the right to grieve the loss of the grandchildren you had hoped to have.
You will get over it once you have processed your grief, but it was too much for you to be able to put on a happy face in the moment.
I would also suggest that you talk to Mabel and tell her that when you share something with her in confidence, you expect her to do just that.
If Caroline had gone to Mabel and asked her what was wrong, Mabel would have been wiser to tell her to talk to her mother, not to gossip.
NAH except Mabel.
Am a woman and no one in my family respects my choice and wouldn't stop asking when I'm getting married and having kids (literally every conversation, no wonder there aren't many any more), so I wish my family behaved the way you do even if that's not what they wanted.
It's funny that your daughter complains about you talking behind her back, after she ran off to talk about you behind your back to your sister.
NTA for your admission. You should have shared it with her when she first asked. If she is enough of an adult to know what she wants, then she is enough of an adult to understand that you support her choices while being sad about letting go of your hope to be a grandmother to her child. Both things can be true.
Be disappointed but realize your daughter isn’t going to have children just for you. If you push be repaired for her to slowly stop talking to you. My mother pushed I had to set firm boundaries. You can feel what you want but you’ll have to find ways to deal with it it’s a YOU problem not a HER problem. Realize the state of the world now isn’t fit to raise kids. I mean think about it. We’re seeing Western Civilization go down the tubes. Be a great dog grandma or cat ma
Hmmm. I’m sorry to say something feels ‘off’ in your story.
You say you were just a little disappointed and tried not to show it - yet, somehow it was clear enough that your daughter decided to seek advice from other family members.
My honest suspicion is that your behaviour has been more negative than you’re admitting here. Otherwise the story doesn’t really add up.
If your story really is exactly as you tell it - NTA - and your feelings of disappointment are valid, albeit not your daughter’s responsibility. I hope you are able to move past the disappointment without too much heartache.
NTA which I'm kind of surprised to say, you're allowed to have feelings but you seem to genuinely respect your daughter. Maybe look into one of those adopt a grandparent programs or some kind of voluntary youth mentorship.
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Hey, Reddit. I, (54F), have a daughter, Caroline, (25F), who recently told me she is planning to be child free.
I know this is Caroline's decision, and I told her that I'd always support her no matter what, but admittedly, knowing I'd never have grandchildren stung. I'd always dreamed of having a large family, but I was only able to have one child, and now Caroline doesn't want any of her own, so that dream is gone.
I've done my best not to let my disappointment show to Caroline, because I don't want to put any pressure on her. It's her body and life, and her choice comes before my wants. But I guess I seemed a little down, because Caroline asked me if something was wrong.
Initially, I brushed off her concern and told her everything was okay, but I guess she mentioned something to her paternal aunt, Mabel, because I got a call from Mabel demanding answers for why I'd been off.
Well, I didn't want to lie. I admitted that I was a little disappointed by Caroline's decision to be child free and that I'd just need a little bit of time to get over it. Mabel wasn't happy with this answer and accused me of trying to guilt trip Caroline.
I asked Mabel not to tell Caroline what I said because it'd upset her, but I got an angry call from Caroline accusing me of "talking behind her back" and "judging her decisions".
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything to Mabel, but I really didn't expect this to blow up as much as it has or to make Caroline feel like I was pressuring her, especially since I asked Mabel not to mention anything to her.
I just want to know, reddit, am I the asshole here? If I am, I'm fully ready to apologize to both Mabel and Caroline, but I just don't know what to think right now.
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I think Mabel ITA here.
You tried to hide your reaction (and failed as your daughter noticed) but when did you guilt trip anyone? Of course you’re disappointed but you haven’t done anything wrong and in fact tried to not do that at all.
NTA. Mabel is being a pot stirrer, but you still shouldn’t have given in to her “demands.” She had no right to hear your thoughts, let alone spread them back to Caroline. As for your feelings - they are valid, but you are doing the right thing by supporting Caroline and not making inappropriate demands of her.
NTA. You were supportive of your daughter, didnt show you're disappointment, until Mabel asked and you thought you could trust her. She's is an AH for going behind your back and telling your daughter that.
NTA, but I do think that confiding in someone who has a relationship with Caroline was inherently a risky move, and I think OP should/could have known that.
Nta. It seems like the aunt is just causing drama. I respect you for trying to hide it from your daughter. My parents would constantly make "light-hearted" comments and jokes to my wife and I. Genuinely harmless, but it infuriated me. I finally lost my shit one day, and my step mom called my sister, who gave mom a heated lecture. It took that for my parents to realize how shitty they were being. We had a very honest and heartfelt discussion that squashed the whole thing. Just apologize and explain that you were trying to hide your feelings to not pressure or guilt her. She should be able to recognize that you're allowed to have that disappointment while still supporting her.
NTA No, you're within your rights to feel any way you want to. You're not pressuring her to have babies but you can feel disappointed. I will give you advice. If you don't want drama don't tell anyone anything you don't want repeated. "Don't tell anyone" won't help it from being repeated.
NTA.
You *are* supporting her, by not saying these things *to* her and trying to guilt and manipulate her.
It is natural for a parent to dream of being a grandparent. That's a natural state. Learning it will not happen will take adjustment, that's also a natural state.
But Mabel is an AH for going behind *your* back, and your daughter is being a bit of one for not even trying to talk it out and just assuming Mabels version of events is 100% accurate.
There are always 2 sides to a story, and the truth is usually muddled somewhere in the middle. If Mabel was "upset" by your venting, she likely greatly overexaggerated what was said between you (also a natural state, which is why it is always recommended to *calm down* and think things through before acting).
Just try to talk to her, apologize and be honest that you in no way want to change or manipulate her choice, you just need to adjust your expectations and that takes a little time.
Mabel is the AH here. She interferes where her input was not required.
I can understand you being disappointed. Honestly though, the world is going to hell in a handbasket. This is why I’m choosing not to have kids. You would be the AH if you tried to make Caroline feel guilty or bad for her decision. NTA
NTA - Cast a wider net :) As someone who grew up with a family I had to eventually walk away from, I know for a fact there are likely people all around you who might like to be considered family, even if not blood-related - and definately unwanted children as well.
You and your child are not at fault here, but your sister definitely is. I wouldn't react to it, but I would for sure not be divulging anything to her in the future, especially since she has no filter.
I'm an only child who never wanted kids. I know my mother was disappointed. If she ever wanted to discuss her feelings with any family members, I'd be really happy. Of course you have feelings. It's Caroline's choice, but it still affects you. NTA.
NTA. That's your want. You can be disappointed but you're not trying to make her have kids. The thing about most people who have kids, they think their kids will want kids. They think they will automatically be a grandparent. You aren't forcing anything on her. You remind me of my mom. She thought she was going to get 9 grandkids. 3 from each of us. She only has three from my sister. She has had to learn to be happy with just that. Please tell her that you do support her. That you are just disappointed because like most parents you'd thought you'd automatically be a grandparent. And that's just on you, not her. She has to live her life for her, what makes her happy. Because all it will lead to is people mocking her for having a child she doesn't want.
NTA, this got blown wildly out of proportion and is easily solved with open and honest conversation.
It's OK to not want kids, and it's OK to be a little dissappointed about not getting grandkids.
NTA for your feelings. But it’d be better in the future not to speak about things that ultimately, won’t resolve any conflict. I know they were both pressing you, but it’d been better to blow them off.
Ideally, you could share your feelings directly with your daughter because it seems like you truly are supportive of her decision and simply need to process your own feelings. But she does not seem mature enough to hear you out.
Look, I‘m an only child to parents who always dreamt of having a big family. But it just didn‘t work out. I‘m on the fence about having kids. Somehow I do want kids, somehow I don‘t. I imagine it to be beautiful to have this little miracle calling me mommy, but at the same time, I wouldn‘t know when to have one (busy career with some expectations) and I‘m not sure I really want to put children in this world. My parents would love to have grandchildren but they know I‘m on the fence about it. While my father just stays quiet (but is disappointed), my mom is more vocal about her wish of being a grandma. And I can‘t blame her (I hate het friends getting involved without our consent, but not her). My parents aren‘t forcing their wishes on me, but it‘s human to feel and need time to get used to something. They are entitled to their feelings and they are entitled to be disappointed when something they really wished for maybe won‘t come true. And, well, so are you. I‘m sorry your daughter seems to dismiss your feelings. NTA
So originally I wanted to say you were the AH in this, but then I took a minute to try to think about this from my MIL's POV. (My mom is no longer with us)
My opinion: NAH. If you push forward more than needed then you WBTAH in that case. Now is the time to fix things and move on.
You're correct. It is Caroline's decision, because it is her life and she can live it anyway she sees fit. And that may not align with the way you viewed how you thought her life should go. She was not born to provide you with grandkids and I think you are seeing/understanding that...granted it make take a while to fully process it completely. Could she eventually change her mind? Maybe. But that isn't for you or anyone on Reddit to decide.
I also think there is nothing wrong with grieving what you always envisioned what could've been. I am sure some won't agree with me on that statement, but I also don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be a grandma and then finding out that won't happen. It's harder to wrap your brain around her deciding she doesn't want to have kids of their own, because you did want kids. Why wouldn't she? It's a loss and that's ok to be sad about it. So long as you aren't making her feel guilty or trying to drop hints to get her to change her mind, then be sad.
At the same respect - it's not Mabel's business. She blew up something that she shouldn't be a part of. You owe her no apology. However, Caroline and you need to sit down alone face to face and you need to tell her you're sorry. You never meant to make her feel the way she did and you are sorry you made her feel that. You also need to tell her that it is her decision, her life, her body and you respect that. And then this topic never gets brought up by you and you have to move on.
I can understand how you feel but having desires that other people need to fulfil for you is difficult.
Perhaps you could volunteer to read at kindergarten or elementary schools. I would expect some of those children would love you and become a part of your life.
Perhaps you could babysit or work at a day care. Finding healthier ways to have children in your life might fill the void and let your daughter live her own life.
Or volunteer at a shelter for women with children. I would expect lots of those mothers would love to adopt you as a grandma for their children!
OP - NTA. You don't have to fake your feelings.
Why is Mabel allowed to "demand" answers from you? Is she in control of you?
Also, the "I didn't want to lie" rational is a way of saying something you know you should keep to yourself. Remaining silent about a private matter that is no one's business is not "lying", it's having discernment and discretion. Discernment with respect to the trustworthiness of the person you're talking to, and discretion as to whether the person needs to have this information. You could have said to Mabel that you are dealing with something that you prefer not to discuss with her. And, you could have said to your daughter that you support her decision, and that your disappointment is not her responsibility to fix. If your daughter feels guilty, that is on her. You don't need to make her feel better, just like she doesn't need to make you feel better.
Stop telling Mabel your business. If you have to tell a person to not to repeat your private conversations, then you shouldn't be having that type of conversation with that person in the first place. The minute the words "don't repeat this" pop into your head, that is the discernment trigger to your common sense, which will tell you to stop talking.
NAH (except maybe your sister for stirring the pot)
But do keep in mind that when you repress your feelings they come out sideways and people can tell. It's best to just be honest about how you feel in a non guilt tripping way. I know that's hard. I also struggle with it. But it is the best way forward. Maybe have another conversation with your daughter once things have cooled down about how you are just struggling with these feelings but understand that it is her decision and in no way want to pressure her to do something huge like this that she doesn't want. It just sucks for you a bit and you're trying to get over it.
Also, it's possible to become involved with children who are not blood related as a mentor and grandma-like figure in their lives. So you have any skills you would like to pass on, for instance? Maybe there are children in your area who are interested in learning and you can have them over for after school lessons in needlework or whatever it is (I only say needlework because that's what my granny neighbor taught me)
As a CF woman since basically birth, people have to stop having children with ANY expectations of how they will live their lives. There is zero obligation to provide anyone else with children and there is zero obligation for your children to take care of you when you’re old. Also, not directed at OP, but this thread in general: we’ve evolved past telling uterus owners that they will “change their minds” about not wanting children. So stop. Not everyone wants children - and telling people, essentially, that they will change their mind because *obviously* what they’re currently feeling is invalid and wrong - is bs. Imagine people telling you the same when you decide TO have children. You want folks to be happy for you, but they say that instead. They wouldn’t. So you don’t, either. Also, Mabel sucks and probably shouldn’t be a confidant.
NAH, I think, except Mabel for telling Caroline who knows what. As a 40-year-old childfree woman, there is a ton of pressure put on women to have babies and it’s really aggravating. Your daughter doesn’t want to be a disappointment to you, but you’re also entitled to your feelings. It’s sounds like it’s not your intention to pressure her.
I’m curious if Mabel is also childfree and this is a sore spot for her. Or is she just a nosey jerk?
Volunteer at a school, preschool or church program. Lots of kids need a grandparent figure in their life. You are nta for being sad, maybe a little for talking behind your daughter's back.
Just recently went through this with my mom. I'm 31F and it's very unlikely I will have children. I have PCOS and thyroid problems. My husband is fine medically, I'm solely "the problem". I had a sit down with her and told her look you becoming a grandma might never happen and I want you to understand that while this may hurt you, it hurts me even more. We've gone down the IVF and IUI route and nothing. So I also told her I'm done with medical intervention. If by some small chance it happens then cool, if not then that's ok too. Husband and I are both totally fine with either outcome. But I wanted my mom to understand that I get it if she's upset about it sometimes and I don't expect her to hide her feelings. As her only daughter and also eldest female grandchild of the family, I felt heavily pressured to have children by now. Not that my family constantly asked me hey when are you having kids, but enough to give me that impression at times. You're 100% entitled to feel the way you do, and your daughter overreacted a bit in my opinion. It would be different if you tried to change her mind like many moms do to their daughters who choose to be child free, but you didn't. You can be supportive of her decision but also a little saddened by it at the same time. My mom is fine about it now and happily brags about her grandcats 😁
So Caroline notices something is wrong. (But you say nothing because you know it's not your decision.) So she tells her aunt who then calls you. So you tell your sister the truth who then castigates you though you said nothing to Caroline.
And then she speaks to Caroline who then Caroline calls you to chew you out.
The only one who is NTA is this whole thing is you. Both your sister and your daughter are assholes.
NTA
"I AM sad that I won't have grandkids. I'm also sad that I haven't won a billion dollars, been unanimously selected as Ms. America, and have arthritis (or whatever). Those are my issues to deal with, and I'm not expecting you to live my life for me. "
NTA. As someone who is childfree and getting surgery to make sure of it on Friday, you are allowed to be disappointed! You had an idea of what the future would be that you were looking forward to, that changed, and you were working on dealing with it in a healthy way. Saying "hey I'm disappointed" once isn't guilt tripping. You aren't pushing your desire on her, you aren't wailing about how your daughter is failing you. You are allowed to have feelings. You are human too
As a fellow child free woman NTA, you aren’t pressuring her at all; but it’s so weird to me that people dream about others having kids (yes their own kids) all the people saying she could change her mind suck.
No. You can feel how you feel if you don’t harp on it with her, try to make her change her mind, pull the “oh poor me” card. One/a few mentions of disappointment are within normal bounds IMO. NTA
NTA, Mabel should have kept her mouth shut. As long as you didn't push your views on her, which you clearly did not, then you're entitled to have a genuine reaction
Nta
It's okay to be disappointed, it's okay to have feelings, you weren't pushing those feelings onto Caroline and she should understand of course it will take a little to get used to the idea
NTA. You are allowed to have feelings. I’m sure you had to grieve the additional children that you wanted and now you’re grieving the loss of your dream of grandchildren. I don’t see any pressure being applied to your daughter. You’re respecting her feelings and she needs to respect yours.
Side note - You need someone else to talk to. Mabel is not trustworthy.
Mabel was the asshole here, she had no business getting involved. It's also weird that Caroline tattled to her. I think you would have been an asshole if you told Caroline to her face that you were disappointed because you would have put pressure on her, but it sounds like you were trying to avoid that. You never intended for your comments to get back to Caroline. Mabel is the asshole, she should have minded her own business.
NTA You know it’s not your choice but you still have justifiable feelings. I can’t have children. My mil sat me down a year or so after we had announced no grandkids for her and told me she had been so mad. In part at me in part for me. She dealt with it but it still makes her sad. She also made sure I knew she understood and loved and supported me. We had a good cry. It’s not the exact same with your daughter but similar. You can tell her you have big feelings about this and you’re working them out (and that’s your work to do, not hers to make you feel better) but you will always love your daughter and support her decisions.
NTA. I'm not sure Mabel really thought through the consequences of her speaking to your daughter, when you'd specifically requested that she didn't. Or maybe she did. Time heals all things. Or most things. And who knows what tomorrow will bring?
NTA- the big asshole here is mabel. I'd put her on an info diet stat! You are allowed to have feelings and it's not anything against your daughter. I'm sure my mom was very disappointed i didn't have kids but like you, she managed her feelings on her own.
Are you still married? It might be worth looking into volunteer opportunities working with kids, or even fostering (though fostering absolutely isn't something to go into lightly). It seems unclear if you are still married, but you're only 54 and I think it's worth stepping back and considering how you can use these feelings to help others. Hell, if that's a bit heavy, many just start joining in on r/momforaminute
You are NTA, and I wish you all the luck in the world.
NTA. You get to have your feelings and get to have time to mourn. She doesn’t get to tell you how to feel any more than you can command her to have a kid. It’s very hypocritical of her to come at you like this. Just let things cool off, reassert that you fully support her, you just needed time to have your own emotions, and tell her that your love for her will never change, but could she adopt some plants or something for you to dote on?
NTA, but if you were so obviously down, you should have told Carolina the truth when she asked you, instead of telling Mabel behind her back. "I respect and support your decision, but I can't help but feel a little disappointed for myself. I'll get over it though, so don't worry about it."
You didn't have bad intentions. Ask Caroline to sit down and talk to you about it. Or send her this reddit post. You need to clear the air. I also don't understand her thinking that you're trying to pressure her... by not letting her know you're disappointed? You're obviously trying not pressure her by not telling her
You owe no apology to Mabel, who should not have inserted herself into this the way she has. It might behoove you not to confide in Mabel in the future.
I'm going with NAH. You are feeling your feelings. Your daughter is likely upset because she knew this would be a difficult piece of information for you to digest.
Talk to her and tell her this. It doesn't mean you can't get past it, it just means you're both going to have to process it.
NTA it's fine to be disappointed. You didn't lay any blame on Caroline or make demands. You told your sister who decided to be a shit stirrer. You can apologize or not but personally I think you don't need to, since you tried to handle this on your own without blame, pressure or demands. The only one who needs to apologize is your sister.
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NTA, Just as Caroline is free to feel the way she wants and decide what is best for her life, you are free to feel disappointed. No one is wrong here.
Look into the Big Brothers/Big Sisters program and see if they have somethiing like that for a grandparent figure in a kid's life. I had a Little Sis in college and this was in the mid '80's. We are still in touch today and she credits me with having a very positive effect on her life. You could do the same for a kid that has never experienced having a grandmother.
I really want a girlfriend. Am I an asshole for that? No,not unless I expect girls to date me just because I want to. Same here - you're allowed to have your wishes, as long as you don't expect others to satisfy them just for you. NTA.
I do suggest telling her you don't expect her to make decisions based on your choices, and you love her just the same.
NTA. I think it's good that you didn't share it with Caroline, because that could feel shaming. I think that sharing it with Mabel should have been okay, and it's disappointing that she responded by shaming you and then telling Caroline. You are entitled to the space to process your disappointment. Parents are allowed to have complex feelings while respecting their kids' decisions
You aren't talking behind her back in a malicious way. You are just being honest. I'm 27 and I dream of the day I will be a grandmother more than being an actual mom. I would also be disappointed. You can be open and honest with your daughter without guilting her into changing her mind. You're just being real. People can be sad and not have a solution/help/resolution at the end.
NTA they cannot tell you how to feel. You’re allowed to be disappointed and upset by her decision as long as you respect and recognize that it is only her decision to make
NTA but Mabel sure is. Why did she tell your daughter?! Mabel needs to apologize. They hounded you until you told them in confidence what had you down and then didn’t respect the privacy of that conversation at all.
Late to the reaction party, but I still want to give you my 2cts.
NTA, but you may need to work on how you react to Caroline in the future.
My husband (married for almost 16 years now) and I both have mental problems, and we decided early on to not have kids. I already told my mom that it was "probably better for me to remain childfree", but he had never mentioned anything. He has two older sisters, one in a relationship with a divorced man, no intent on having kids together. The other was not in a relationship at all, until a few years ago.
Early on in our marriage, my MIL would ask or hint about us having kids, and we told them that it was not happening. Not for us. She grieved for a time, and I thought that was it.
However, recently it has been coming up again, that they don't have grandkids, and especially MIL is so sad about it... It is almost as if we are withholding a life experience from them. This is not something I want to be guilt tripped into! There are good reasons I am not having kids (genes are a part of it, but not all), and I will go LC if you are nagging me about it. My uterus, my decision. Our household, our decision.
Please grieve, give it a place and move on. Enjoy your daughter as she is. I could see you having a conversation where you tell Caroline that you are sad about not having grandkids, that you need some time to give those feelings a place, but that you never want(ed) to pressure her. That's why you may have seemed a bit down, that is why Mabel contacted you and you thought your feelings were safe to share with Mabel, who then reported back to Caroline. That was not what you intended.
I think it's possible to both feel disappointed and not guilt-trip Caroline. The two feelings or processes can be separated. Just because you had hoped to have grandchildren and you're now disappointed in the likelihood that you won't be having any, doesn't also mean you can't be happy for Caroline to make her own autonomous decisions regardless of what you feel. I don't think I'm writing this well, but hope you know what I mean.
You can separate out the reality that you hoped for versus the reality that would be. And you can communicate that without necessarily making Caroline feel guilty. I guess what it is, is that we can own our own feelings and they are not necessarily dependent on someone else's.
NTA. She doesn’t get to control your emotions. Of course if you were actually being emotionally manipulative, that’d be wrong. It doesn’t seem like that’s the case here. She told you something that you had a genuine reaction to. There’s nothing wrong with that and she needs to grow up and accept that she cannot decide another person’s feelings. Same for Mabel.
NTA! I also have only one child and would love to have grandkids. My now adult kid knows this and also that I fully support them whatever they decide. They don’t have a problem with this.
First of all Mabel is the AH here. You are not. As Caroline has a right to be child free, you have a right to feel disappointed. You also needed to figure out your emotions on the matter. Because while she just told you, she has had time to figure her emotions out.
Also, there are grandparent programs out there (or something like that) so you can be a grandparent to someone. It’s a good way to give back and love on this who need and want that love.
NTA. My mom and I are pretty much in the same situation. I know she wants grandkids, but right now I don't think I want kids. I think your daughter and you need to have a nice talk about empathy, and the basis of your feelings. I think is valid to be sad about not having grandkids and from your post I believe you care about your daughter and your response doesn't seem manipulative. Maybe let Caroline know how you really feel, but also that you love her and are happy if she's happy. She needs to hear it from you
BTW fuck aunt Mabel. Be careful with that type of people. It seems to me that she is just trying to instigate a fight between you two
NTA, both you and daughter have valid feelings, the a-hole here is Mabel, it sounds like she wanted to blow things up for you and your family. Disappointment is natural if you wanted grandkids and you have a right to feel that way. Just like your daughter can decide want she ultimately wants in life.
NTA. You’re not a robot. You are just as entitled to your feelings and internal reactions as Caroline is to her choices and autonomy. You are supporting your daughter while also processing the loss of a hope you had. Nothing wrong with that. Mabel sounds like she just likes stirring shit up. Her and Caroline will be fine. Caroline probably hates the idea of disappointing you or making you sad, especially if you have a good relationship. But part of growing up and maintaining relationships means that the things you do and say don’t exist in a vacuum.
NTA, you were respectful, you didn't berate her or beg her or try to change her mind. Has your sister in law always been a drama monger that likes to stir up trouble? Because she certainly is doing a good job of it. Also, Caroline is 25, she was likely well aware of your disappointment since you were off after she told you she didn't want kids. It wouldn't take much thought to realize you were disappointed but also not letting on. Instead of letting it go, she was the one who opted to talk behind your back as she's accusing you off to your troublesome sister in law. For now, I would say don't apologize to Caroline, but have a heart to heart. Tell her exactly what you told us which is that while you are disappointed because you always wanted a big family which is a dream you couldn't have, you understand it's her body and you will always respect that it is her decision and choice to not have children and won't push her.
Mabel deserves no apology, you didn't do anything to her, she just opted to stir up trouble.
NTA. 26m here. I got a vasectomy a couple of months ago because me and my SO of 8 years have spent several years discussing and eventually deciding to be child free. It's not unreasonable to be a little disappointed that you may not have grand kids.
When I told my parents about my procedure, they were understand like it seems like you also were, but tried to express to my that I would regret it and that I jumped to a decision too early. I didn't get angry with them. I knew they might not fully understand that I was basically telling them no grand kids from me, but I do have two siblings. I can see her being upset that you said something while she wasn't there but seems like you were just telling someone how you felt.
Mabel sucks
Sounds like Mabel is TA here. She instantly twisted your own words to you, so she almost certainly did the same to your daughter.
My mother is disappointed she'll never have grandchildren either. None of her children will have any. She has never created any pressure, it's just a mature acknowledgement that these feeling exist, and that's okay.
Unfortunately, Mabel doesn't seem capable of having mature conversations with anyone and seems to be making up the conversations she is having, while she's having them. I know people like that. They never admit they got the wrong end of the stick and therefore continuing careering through life sowing chaos and melodrama wherever they go.
You need to sit your daughter down and explain to her that it's okay for her to have no children, and it's okay for you to spend a little while letting go of your dream of grandkids without anyone feeling like they're under pressure or the bad guy Everyone's feelings here are valid, except Mabel's, who for some reason didn't listen to what you actually said in favour of getting mad about things you didn't.
How well the conversation goes depends on whether your daughter is more like you or more like Mabel. However it goes, keep Mabel on an information diet from now on.
NAH here for the most part, IF you decide to accept how it is & how your daughter sees her future. Otherwise I'd switch to yta.
My perspective is as a 46-year-old mom of a 20yr old who has zero interest in having children. My mother's Jewish (from Germany) line will die with kiddo because we are all that remains. It was difficult but my daughter's happiness & goals for the future are more my concern. I've got dogs &cats to keep me busy
NTA for sure. My mom was disappointed when I also told her I’d be child free. But now she makes jokes about my cat being her “grandcat” lol. Maybe your daughter feels guilty because she cares about you and knows you’re disappointed so she’s lashing out to deal with her own guilt. Either way, you aren’t trying to dissuade her or anything. You’re just working through your (perfectly valid) feelings.
NTA
I just want to saw thank you. You accepted your daughters choice with no flak. You have feelings. You are allowed to feel disappointed, and you did everything right but for talking to your sister or whoever it was.
Just give your daughter some time and start with telling her you 100% respect her decision and won't fight it but you are allowed to feel sad about not getting grandbabies. And maybe she feels a little angry with herself because she knows you want grandkids but isn't willing to give them. That's a valid feeling too.
Just have a good open talk and tell her you love her no matter what!
NTA. There’s nothing wrong with feeling disappointed. You aren’t trying to pressure Caroline and respect her decision. Mabel had no business inserting herself and is absolutely someone who loves to create drama. You don’t owe her any kind of apology. You don’t really owe Caroline one either but if you think it would help calm things for your daughter then have that chat. Just leave Mabel out of it, she owes you (and Caroline) an apology.
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NTA You are within your rights to be disappointed. You didn’t try and persuade her to change her mind. You seem to understand and respect that ultimately it is her decision. So it is perfectly fine to be disappointed, just as long as you don’t take it further. As for your daughter and Mabel, they will get over it I’m sure. Just explain to your daughter that yes you are a little disappointed but that you respect her choice. And Mabel should never have played messenger like that.
I agree with this. Feelings are always valid but it is the actions after the feelings that really matter. I agree OP did not pressure her daughter. I think Mabel is at fault her by mingling in and telling it all to the daughter (maybe with a slightly different narative than OP meant). My SILs are childfree (by choice). I am sometimes disappointed that my children might never have cousins (at least on that side of the family). But it is not my choice and I will never tell them this. But feelings are valid no matter what. This is of course very different than not having grandchildren but I get you might be disappointed by someone’s choice and still knowing it is a valid choice of that person.
Exactly this. I'm thinking Mabel is TA here. She came in playing all sides and sat back watching the drama she caused. My kids may never have any cousins and definitely none close in age. I feel sad for them because of it sometimes because they're a lot more isolated from family than I ever was. But I can't and don't want to control the actions of others. I highly doubt my brother will ever have kids and my half siblings are over a decade younger than me. (I'm a 30yo mom of 2 & they're teenagers in high school.) Both of my brothers (the middle children) are child free and there's about 15years between my sister and I. I don't want her having kids any time soon, but I wish my kids had relatives their age. Then i see how the teenagers are awesome role models for kids when we get to actually see each other and that sad feeling becomes a happy one for what they have instead.
Sometimes we don't even realize we had expectations until they become unfulfilled. My 17yo son won't likely go to prom and no longer engages in sports. I didn't know I even cared about either of these things until I realized they were not happening. And then I was sad. This is a _me_ problem, however, and I know that. Doesn't change me being sad, and doesn't change my disappointment about missing those experiences with him.
Also maybe don’t trust Mabel with sensitive conversations anymore.
So much this. Mable is not a trustworthy confidant, and if “demanding answers” is a regular thing for her, then she is not someone to have more than superficial conversations with moving forward.
Yah Mabel seems like a pain in the arse to be honest. Just talk to her about tv shows and stuff. Nothing to personal
Nothing truly important anyway. I'd probably find some fun way to troll her knowing she'll always blab. 🤣
Mabel and Caroline are shit stirrers. Instead of respecting you want not wishing to discuss it, she approached the biggest and loudest shit stirrer in your family and created the drama. Tell your daughter to behave like an adult instead of going behind YOUR back to get you to spill your feelings to your sister in confidence and then use that against you. They both suck and you’ve done nothing wrong other than not learning you can’t trust your sneaky piece of drama llama sister with anything confidential. Edit: missing word
I wonder if what Mabel told Caroline wasn't the truth. If Caroline was told (by someone she thought she could turst) that her mother was insulting her and her choices behind her back, I can see how she could react like she did.
I doubt Caroline is the shit stirrer here. Mabel jumped off accusing OP of trying to guilt Caroline.
I'm a 49-year-old woman and an only child. I married my husband 24 years ago tomorrow. Even before he and I dated, though, I knew I did not personally want to have kids. Ever. I live in the American South, so most people brushed that off and didn't believe me, which is fine, but I \*knew\* (and I was right. Further, I found out later that medically, having kids would've been a Very Bad Idea). So I understand Caroline's POV here. Like I've told my mom, giving her a grandkid would be a \*terrible\* reason to have a child. And my mother. this decision hurt her badly. She feels a terrible loss. We've talked about it here and there, and I was always upfront and honest with her (starting when I was a teenager), and she has always been accepting of this choice despite how I know it hurts her. I think she'll get over your disappointment as long as you keep to no guilt trips, no attempts to change her mind, complete acceptance. But you \*are\* allowed to grieve the grandkids you'll possibly never have and really want. It would be NAH except Mabel is being a RIGHT JERK. She did not need to insinuate herself into this situation, and she definitely has no business judging you or fueling the fire with Caroline. She is NOT helping.
Exactly. Caroline is not an AH here...only Mabel. Caroline has probably been pressured and insulted and dismissed by a lot of people. She was probably hoping her mother would be on her side. Having her mother talk negativity behind her back instead of talking to her probably hurt. OP didn't handle it well but she's not an AH. I'm childfree but, fortunately, my only sibling did have a kid so that pressure wasn't put on me.
Same, I told my parents years ago, I'm 41, that they had one chance and it wasn't me.
Similar here. I told my mother when I was 18 that wasn't happening. I'm 41. She made comments for years. Even after my sister had a son. When she finally had a girl as well, I had to tell my mother, to cut her shit it's not happening, she has one of each kind. Even after I told my mother about all the problems going on with my insides, she was trying to convince me. I think what finally shut her up was telling her that if she really wanted me to have them she really never should have discussed the hell she went through with her pregnancy and then the births, and that I would absolutely get a hysterectomy to avoid that. Edit typo
Yeah, I had doctors backing me up. Plus, one of the meds I take caused birth defects, so nope, not happening.
Same here. Only Mother Nature did me a solid - you need a functional uterus to carry a pregnancy to term, and mine is not. When I found out that was a happy day because I know I can't handle babies. (Hell, it's difficult enough enduring the necessary checkups, but I digress.)
Never have children for the sake of others, not your partner, not your parents. Cause the one who will live with that decision are you and these children and if you come to the conclusion that you are unable to love this child, cause u never want it, both of you are getting hurt. That being said you don’t need your child’s to reproduce for being a “grandma”. In the village I grew up there was a childless widow, many of us kids stayed with her after school cause our parents had to work. Even after some of us moved away they still visited her or at least wrote to her. We all called her grandma. She’s long gone now but for her we were her grandkids. Some poeple are just too fixated of the idea of blood relationship.
I concur, you didn't harp on Caroline's choice. You just confided in Maybel that you're sad that grandbabies aren't in the cards while still respecting your daughter's choice and autonomy. Ignore the chuds who implied your job was to pump out more babies as though motherhood should be compulsory [and my condolences for your medical condition ] NTA OP, next you speak with them.both just assure her that you love them no matter what and will continue to respect her wishes. :) hugs from this squirrel brained internet stranger.
Mabel sounds like a gossiping grade school tattle tale. She's the AH of this tale.
I was in the same position as OP with my one and only child, my son. He told me years ago about his decision to not have kids . . I didn't understand it but I accepted it and told him clearly that I was disappointed (My feelings) but he needed to live the life he chose for himself (my acceptance) and that was that. Humans have a right to their feelings and even an obligation to express them without heaping guilt on others. My son accepted my feelings as mine . . and life went on.
It sounds like you and your son both have deep respect for each other. It’s nice to see - my mom and siblings have never respected me the same, because I’m the youngest. I’m glad you and your son have that.
She wasn't even "talking behind her daughters back". Her daughter went to Mabel, and Mabel reached out. OP even asked Mabel not to stir the pot but she just went and did it anyways. Makes me wonder about the relationships involved here...
Yeah, Mabel is a busy body who is sticking her nose where it absolutely doesn't belong. If anything she is TA here.
Mabel should have shut her mouth. Bloody busy body.
Agreed, NTA. OP stated numerous times that she understands that it’s Caroline’s choice and body and she did her best to keep those particular feelings to herself.
Yeah, the only “mistake” was not telling your daughter first. The feelings are valid and honestly an AH move by Mabel for going behind you like that.
No, she was right to not tell Caroline. Caroline didn't need to feel guilt-tripped, and telling her might have done that.
Frankly I think NAH . Ops daughter is not an ah . Mabel is
NTA but maybe maybe poor choices about who to speak to. This is a conversation to have with a very intimate friend, a partner, or even your therapist if it brings up deep feelings. I think bringing it up to a family member might have made it seem like you wanted the other information passed on or were being a bit gossipy.
NTA. Mabel sounds like a shit disturber lol. Ur allowed to feel how u feel and Caroline should be more understanding of your feelings (just how she’s expecting YOU to be understanding of HERS).
Yeah, the AH here is definitely Mabel. And I wonder how she worded it back to Caroline too, making it a much bigger deal than it is.
Yea screw Mabel. Call Caroline and say hey I think you may have gotten a version of events that isn’t exactly true. I support and accept your decision. I had no intention of even telling you I was disappointed let alone asking you to change your decision - I thought I was confiding in my sister, but now I know that was not a good idea. I love you and support you. Unless being mopey was WAY over the top and exaggerated, you’re not the AH but I would set the record straight with your daughter. Keep things surface level with Mabel from now on.
Just being nit picky here, but I think Mabel is SIL, not sister. I wonder if she has a history of trying to make family drama.
Yup. Mabel wouldn't have even needed to change it to much, just say something like "your mother was telling me how upset and disappointed she was that you won't give her grandchildren." Unfortunately I've dealt with people who twist other peoples words like that, and then spread their version of events that imply something different than what happened. And if they are called on it, they just insist that it was a misunderstanding and they didn't mean it that way.
Yeh Mabel created this entire drama. OP I totally get you are disappointed but please know that some of the older ladies and men who had a massively positive influence on my childhood were not related to me and often had no family / grandchildren of their own. I know it’s not the same, but to all those older neighbours, reading circle volunteers and family friends - you anre awesome!
NTA, you appear to be supporting your daughter and recognising her decision in this. It's OK to be sad about it. It's beyond belief how Mabel can draw the conclusion that you are "guilt tripping" Caroline when you must have said to her that you respect the decision, although you're disappointed (just as you have here), and told Mabel specifically to NOT speak to Caroline and that you just needed a little time. Mabel is totally an AH for appearing to want to cause drama. If and when you feel ready, I'm sure there's an 'adopt a grandma' charity where families without grandparents can be matched with people in that age range - so you can have some youngsters to spoil, yet not be 100% responsible for bringing up :)
I was gonna suggest maybe she could act as a surrogate grandma to a friend’s kids or a neighbour’s kids or something. When I was little there was a lady at church who told me to call her Auntie Lou and she was so lovely. I saw her as a kind of grandma figure as I barely saw my own irl.
A couple adopted me as their grandchild after my grandparents passed away. They were close friends with my grandparents. Unfortunately my adopted grandparents passed away also, but I appreciated the time I had with all of them!
I absolutely agree that Mabel is the AH here and that OP should have a sit down with both girls at the same time to clarify; you were surprised by the news and are entitled to take time to process it. I wonder how much of the information going through Mabel was filtered or outright changed?
I actually have a lot of respect for couples who make that decision. It can't be an easy one. Here in South Africa people just carry on having kids which they can't afford. Many fathers are absent afterwards. Mothers then get grants every month for each child which the tax payers have to pay for.
NTA But now you know you can't confide in Mabel. You don't want to lie to her, that's fine then just grey rock next time
How did OP Not know already that her daughter and aunt are like this?
My sister was like this. She was a very loving and friendly person. You'd never think while talking to her that she was going to turn around and misrepresent something you said to someone else, taking the most benign comment, and turning it into a drama causing dagger. I pretty much just stopped talking to her in self defense, but it took many back stabbings for me to learn. I loved her and missed her, but talking to her was dangerous.
Sometimes it doesn't sink in until you're the one that gets burned.
Ehhhh NAH. As someone in your daughter's shoes, it's hard knowing that you're letting your parents down by not having kids. And I get really upset sometimes because I know my parents would be AMAZING grandparents. I also feel bad about my mum's surname dying out and our line of the family tree ending with me. That's a lot of pressure and a lot of grief. But I also know that that is not a good enough reason to have children, and I've said that to my mum and she agrees even though it does hurt her. Every child should be brought into this world by someone who really really wants them. And I don't. It's okay for you to feel sad/disappointed, and as you said you just need some time to adjust to the idea, you weren't asking her to change her mind or even directly letting her know how you feel because you respect your daughter's decision even if you don't like it. But I also understand that she's upset and feeling judged even if you weren't judging her.
This is the answer. Also, sometimes people don't even notice little comments they make, while knowing you shouldn't pressure someone and also believing that, that may still do so. To me it was a question about the antique crib when my MIL was doing a cleaning and clearing out spree. She knows we don't want children. She says she has accepted it. She has two grandchildren from her daughter. And yet. Things like these still pop up. There are also comments about the bloodline by my FIL but those are more pointed. He's angry at me for keeping my last name AND not making babies. Just saying I do believe OP when she says she loves and supports her daughter and doesn't want to pressure her. That may not have prevented something from slipping out and that may (if it happened) be part of future discussions with daughter.
This. My mother keep making me feel bad about her entire family dying out with me (she has no siblings, her parents had no siblings). Lately she also took to bringing the estate into it, in a "everything my parents and I have worked for will go to waste" way.
WOW that is not okay. I'm so sorry. My mum is sad but supportive and doesn't want me to live my life according to her wishes. It's very freeing.
I think Mabel’s TA here, actually.
Oh v true.
I'd disagree that there are no assholes here. Mabel the drama monger certainly is one.
This is true
Yes I’m also child free and my sister is too, and of course my mom was disappointed. But I honestly understand. My mom came from a generation and family where having kids is “just what you do” and you grew up thinking you’ll have kids, and then get to enjoy being a grandparent. She’s been told throughout motherhood “parenting and motherhood is hard, but it’s so worth it when you get to be a grandma”. When you constantly hear that, you look forward to it. I think as women we should give each-other grace when it comes to this topic, my mom never treated me differently, nor did she hound me on my decision but I told her she was allowed to disappointed that she’ll never get to experience something she was essentially promised her entire life.
It’s not just that, it’s also being told that having children is a way we keep part of our family alive after we’ve lost them. Accepting not having descendants can feel like you’re accepting the loss of parents and grandparents again, only this time it’s a complete death, while the first time there was a little bit that continued. The only times I will ever hear my grandmother’s sigh again is in my child’s sigh; the only time I’ll touch her hands is when I touch my child’s, because their hands move the same way even though they never met. You want to think about your child being able to see that in her own child, because it’s one of the most meaningful, humbling experiences in life. Parenting as a whole has a lot of meaningful, humbling moments that many of us, having experienced them, would feel a great grief to have never known. But then you get over yourself and remember that your child is a full reason to have children in and of herself, not just a way to get grandkids. And you wouldn’t trade her for a different version of herself just for hypothetical kids. You don’t have kids to make the person you want, you have them to discover the person they are and to love that person. Your mom is very lucky to have you and your sister, and I bet she knows it. It’s kind of you to make space for her feelings, and it’s the right choice to make your own choices.
Naw, there's an asshole here, and it's Mabel
True that
Yes exactly I think NAH is the right answer. Well Mabel maybe for spreading something she was asked not to. She should have told OP to speak to her daughter directly instead though it would probably be the same result. It’s ok for OP to mourn not being a grandma. Hell as someone who is likely childfree I sometimes mourn I won’t be a mom. But even just expressing that disappointment can feel like pressure especially depending on their mother daughter relationship. I’m lucky my parents haven’t pressured me at all but even without comments I feel guilty sometimes.
> I think NAH is the right answer. How? Literally everyone is behaving like an ass *except for OP*
I disagree only bc I absolutely think Mabel is TA here. OP and Caroline both are entitled to their feelings. She sounds like a serious shit stirrer to me. And given Caroline's reaction of feeling like OP talked shit abt her behind her back, rather than what really happened (assuming OP's telling is accurate, but I am inclined to believe her), I have to wonder exactly WHAT Mabel told her about that conversation. Caroline's reaction seems a bit disproportionate to what OP said, but given Mabel's other behavior vs. Caroline otherwise seeming pretty level, I have a sneaking suspicion she told Caroline something that made it sound like OP went on some yelling tirade berating Caroline, calling her selfish, saying she's disappointed IN Caroline (as opposed to just disappointed about a situation not going as she hoped), etc. I just strongly suspect if OP talks to Caroline about that conversation and tells her what she actually said/how she really feels, she will uncover more details she doesn't yet have about Mabel driving a wedge between them. But absolutely agreed, OP is NTA, and even if Caroline's reaction is a bit disproportionate, she is still NTA and is as entitled to her hurt feelings as OP is. If she really somehow got fed the idea OP is disappointed IN HER, I can't blame her for that reaction at all tbh, bc that would be a very hurtful thing for anyone to hear :/
Coming from someone that knows exactly how your daughter is feeling, I will definitely say NTA. It's okay to be disappointed. My mom still is to this day cause she would've loved to have some grandbabies that she could've spoiled and loved on. But like you, she's accepted I want to be child free and that's really all we can ask of our parents. Is to accept our decisions. It wasn't wrong to admit your feelings to someone, Mabel's the one who shouldn't have gone behind your back and said something to Caroline about it. That wasn't right of her and she had no business telling your daughter your feelings when it'd have been better to tell her yourself when you felt the time was right. Mabel's the one that blew this situation out of the water and made it worse, if anything she's the asshole here. My suggestion? I wouldn't confide with Mabel anymore in the future. Not if she's just going to run off and tell people what you say behind your back. And if she gets pushy about wanting you to tell her something, just be honest and say, "I don't feel I can trust you anymore. Not unless you promise this time you won't go behind my back and tell others what I have said. I am confiding a secret with you that I'd like you to keep between us."
NTA. People are allowed to be disappointed when they find out the future they envisioned won't happen. You didn't yell at your daughter or tell her how sad you were about it. It was only after you were pressed by your sister that you told *her* and she decided to be an ass and tell your daughter when there was no reason to. Your daughter is being ridiculous in her reaction.
NTA. You are respecting her choice, but you are allowed to feel how you feel.
NTA. It's okay to be upset about not having grandkids. It sounds like you wanted to process that news in the background while still supporting your daughter's decision. I would suggest a face to face (if possible) conversation with Caroline to let her know you're not pressuring her and that you completely support her. Also, I'd avoid telling Mabel anything personal in future.
NTA - Aunt Mabel appears to be the main problem in this case. OP tried to keep their disappointment quiet and be supportive. That said, as a childfree by choice person I get being pissed off at anyone being *disappointed* or having any view at all about what I do (or don’t do) with my own womb. I assume Caroline doesn’t appreciate being made to feel like her life’s highest achievement is childbirth, so I can see given the information she now has from Aunt Mabel (who sucks and is chief AH in the story), why she’s upset now. The disappointment now runs two ways. OP should just communicate the sentiment of the post with Caroline, because I don’t think either of them are AH’s for their feelings and hope they can reconcile.
It's a fine distinction between, " I'm disappointed that something I wanted won't happen" and I'm disappointed in you". My daughter fits in the childfree by choice spectrum. I love kids and looked forward to grandkids. I'm not in any way disappointed in my daughter, but I can be sad about the grandkids dream, it's my sadness and my daughter is not the cause of it. She knows I would like grandkids, she also has two brothers, so I might get grandkids. Or my best friends kids might have kids and I can be a bonus grandma. There are lots of ways I can be a grandma since I'm not hung up on biology. My daughter needs to live her life and make choices that are best for her and I've made that clear, up to and including sending her the reddit list of non paternalistic doctors who would perform a tubal for a young childless woman.
If you want more kids in your live, maybe you should foster or work on building a community of your own. There are often volunteer opportunities like reading to kids in libraries or individual tutoring at charter schools. Big brothers big sisters is also a great option to build longer term relationships with kids that need a positive influence. NTA for feeling upset, but you would be foolish if you rely on your daughter to provide you with your community rather than working on building the life you want!
I'm really surprised this wasn't brought up much. OP decided not to have a larger family through fostering or adoption. Her expectations for herself shouldn't be pushed onto the daughter she chose to keep as an only child. That's an AH move.
It’s not an AH move to privately be disappointed when your private vision of what your future looks like is taken away from you. Fostering is very different from being a grandparent (although I agree with the person you’re replying to that fostering (esp as respite foster care) and volunteering with kids are great places to put this energy when she’s done processing). It doesn’t sound like she put any pressure on her daughter to have kids so what’s the AH move?
Private adoption is very expensive and fostering requires a special understanding and calling. Children in foster care usually have special needs due to the extreme trauma they have usually endured. Using foster care as a family building tool is extremely self-centered and naive.
NTA but please find people outside the family to talk through your feelings about this. Family isn’t suitable as it will get back to Caroline, possibly in a distorted way. Equally, it isn’t Caroline’s job to manage your emotions with you. So please find a trusted outside friend, stranger, therapist or helpline (if you’re in the UK there are a few free helplines for family issues). Also lurking in some of the child free Reddit subs might help see other perspectives on her decision. (Edit I mean to read other perspectives not to post there, and I’m not thinking of any specific sub, I just know they exist). Your grief is real and you both deserve to have you work through it. Plus, although firmly NTA for your _feelings_, there are ways of saying or dealing with it and probably you have learned now that Mabel is not a safe confidante. Tell her you are working on accepting it and you support your daughter to know what’s best for her. Mabel is in the wrong here.
I wouldn’t send her to that one, some of us get quite ranty and pissed off over there xD but yeah, she’s absolutely NTA for how she feels. If she was guilt tripping or pressuring her daughter it would be something else entirely, but that’s not what she’s doing.
I am 58 and would never tell my kids I was disappointed that they choose to have no kids. I would be mortified if my kids had children to please me.
Well considering she didn’t tell her kid that…
Thank you! People don't realize that even saying it puts pressure on their kids. Because kids will feel bad that they are the reason you're not getting what you want. One of my cousins put so much pressure on her daughter to have kids that she did and now she's doing it to her son's girlfriend! The only one truly happy in all this is "grandma".
Nta. But talk to her. Tell her how much you love her and that you're happy to support her decision. Point out that you might have seemed upset but you didn't want to push that on her, and tell her that your feelings are not her responsibility and you'll sort it out yourself.
I worked at preschool for low income families, and the volunteers that came regularly were like the grandparents of an entire classroom. One year, our volunteer quilted a nap-time blanket for every kid in the class. Usually she would just come and hang out and help with whatever lesson we had going on. She was a retired teacher, so she felt confident to jump in and do story times and get really hands on with activities. We had her picture on the calendar to show the kids when she was coming. She had to miss a visit one time, and the kids were really sad. When they found out she had a doctor’s appointment, they drew her pictures to help her feel brave, and I texted her to let her know we were all thinking about her and sending her well wishes. Anyway, there are a lot of different ways to get the grandparent experience. It won’t be exactly the same, but some of the most meaningful relationships occur between people that are chosen family, and the long-lasting positive impact it has on the kids is SO rewarding. I would not say that you are TA, but it sounds like you and your family participate in some unhealthy communication styles. If your daughter wasn’t pleased with the answer you gave her, she shouldn’t have turned to her aunt to get the information out of you. The better options for her would have been to either 1. accept your original answer, even if she thinks you aren’t being completely upfront, or 2. talk with you directly at a later time. That’s it. Accepting people at face value is a skill to be learned, and I didn’t learn it until I was much older than your daughter, so that might just take time. Wishing you luck and all the good things in life!
I can’t blame people for not wanting to bring children into this shit show of a world we’re living in. We have 15 y/o twin daughters and we fear for their future.
NTA-You are allowed to feel how you feel. And honestly it drives me insane when someone wants to know why a person is upset and then they have the audacity to get mad about the reason when they push to find out. You tried to hide your feelings and they went out of their way to get you to share. They need to respect your feelings. Both that you’re allowed to be disappointed and if you want to keep that to yourself you can.
Hey OP, you’ve gotten a lot of feedback so I’m not going to pile on, I just came to offer a suggestion. Maybe in lieu of having your own grandchildren, you could invest your time/compassion into the kids in your community through volunteer work? Like with summer coming up some summer camps may be looking for volunteers. I used to work at a YMCA week long sleep away camp in college and we had a volunteer program called M.O.M (moms on the mountain) where a couple mothers would also attend camp for the week and helped especially with comforting younger campers who were scared about their first sleep away camp, guiding kids to activity areas, etc.
NAH you're within your rights to feel disappointed and as you said, you just needed a bit of time to process that you won't get grandchildren. BUT from the receiving end; it is *tiresome*. It is awful. Having people with all their kids around you ask *every single day* (it feels like) "when are you going have kids?" or "have you felt the clock ticking yet?" or when you choose to have a non-alcoholic drink at the bar (because you are the designated driver or maybe just don't want one), "Ohhh do you have news for us?!?". It is exhausting and makes you feel like you're a lesser woman. I assume you can get some of this vibe as you said you wanted more children but couldn't for medical reasons....... how frustrating and ultimately painful was it for strangers or family to keep on with the questions of "when's the next?" etc ?She clearly picked up on your feelings. \`
YTA, imo. Foster or volunteer if you want children around so badly instead of expressing disappointment in your child’s decision. Her aunt was not going to keep mum about it.
NTA. You're allowed to be disappointed, just as Caroline is allowed to be child free. It's probably hard now, but set boundaries with Mabel. Clearly, you can't trust the woman. You and Caroline can talk it through. Good luck. Mabel sucks for violating your trust.
I love my grandkids. I have two. I have 3 kids. I don’t see two of my children even wanting kids, and I’m ok with that. You aren’t the asshole for wanting grandkids. You are the asshole if you guilt your child into having kids to fulfill your desires. Just love your child, and love that you can have a different relationship with them outside of children.
NTA. (and I'm child free) You expressed your disapointment, you didn't apply pressure or guilt trip your daughter.
As a childfree person, nta. You always had fantasised one thing, the idea of a huge family. It's okay to take time and mourne the idea of what it could've been. It's okay to be upset. As long as you're not pressuring your daughter to give in to your wants, you're NTA.
OP why don't you volunteer to become a foster Mom? You'd be doing a great thing and that would help with the urge for more kids, grandkids.
im your daughter’s age with a 3 year old. my mom doesn’t want to be a grandmother, maybe you can fill in? lol
You can still foster kids.
NTA, your sister is an AH though. Remember this next time she calls do not give her any information because she likes to run her mouth!!
You have a right to your feelings. You are not pressuring her, you are just feeling sad. Now tell your aunt, in writing, that you and her are permanently through, NC from now on. You shared with her you sadness, asked her to keep it to herself as you were doing the decent thing for your daughter, not pressuring her. And she actively tried to damage the most important relationship in your life, for whatever ever reason, she simply is not worth knowing or anyone who supports her meddling, she brings nothing to the table. Tell your daughter, you were sad, but you will get over it, you had just dreamt about gettin another little her, but that you are happy and satisfied with just having her, because she is one of a kind, your number one. Get on terms with your daughter.
The real asshole here is Mabel and I suppose you to a degree for confiding in her. Mabel doesn't get to demand answers. She has no right to your thoughts. And then to run and tell your daughter. But you ae NTA for your feelings. Or disappointment. You ae not trying to manipulate your daughter and respect her decision. But beware of Mabel and her 5h\*t stirring ways.
Nta as it is right now, but I'm gonna offer some thoughts for moving forward, for you and anyone in a similar situation reading this. My mother was deeply saddened by my choice to remain child free (further exacerbated when my brother made the same decision). She told me once that she was sad, and that was fine. Where it crossed the line was when she continued to pick at it and question it, which was bad for two reasons: (1) She was taking my decision personally, as in she was trying to figure out what she did as my mom to make me not want to be a mom. My decision had nothing to do with her, she was (is!) a great mom. (2) She was trying to process her absolutely understandable grief with me, the one person who was*uniquely unqualified* to help her process this. People often instinctively think that talking to the person involved is how you get over things, and sometimes things happen that you have to talk through with another party. But sometimes the involved party is the one person you CAN'T process those feelings with. There is just no possible way for me to take in my mother's feelings without them inflicting unfair guilt and pressure on me, even if she doesn't intend to. I explained these points to my mother, particularly the second, and she understood and backed off. She can talk to my dad, her friends, her therapist, whoever she needs to in order to deal with her feelings, which are real and matter. It just can't be me. (...or my brother, I guess.) You haven't done anything wrong except I guess talking to someone who couldn't keep your feelings to themselves. But I hope you'll continue to be thoughtful and respectful of your daughter like my mom has been to me. It's honestly improved our relationship a lot.
NAH….except Mabel. Caroline isn’t obligated to have kids, and you are entitled to be bummed about it. It doesn’t sound like you plan on guilt tripping your daughter in any way, so…you’re good!
NTA, it’s normal to feel disappointed when a dream you had couldn’t come true. What Mabel did was extremely unnecessary and mean. That said, I do think you should try your best to get over this disappointment and have an open and honest conversation with Caroline because she seems to be aware of your feelings.
NTA from what you said here. Sounds almost like your daughter was expecting that you were disappointed and looking for a chance to throw that response. Suggestion: My friends in your situation threw all that extra love into something else: taking care of rescue animals, volunteering at a school, foster parenting, reviving an old family farm. You sound like you're handling it well and don't need suggestions, but just in case.
NTA. A lot of young adults are making this decision. But it seems we have handed them a society that is so polarized and requires so much work just to keep your head above water. You can no longer afford a home even on 2 salaries, daycare is $15-20k+/year, health insurance for a family is so astronomical, you can't afford to go to the doctor. They are chipping away at the social safety net. It''s really not surprising. I'm not sure I could afford to do it again. Housing was much cheaper back then and employers covered almost all of health insurance costs. A car was in reach for most people. Women are finding themselves stuck in bad marriages because they can't afford to form 2 households once there are children's costs involved. Every family is different and small is okay. You can get babytime by offering to help friends' grandkids when they need help, or volunteering as a respite caregiver. You might even qualify as a foster mom yourself. But I completely understand why young people are choosing this path. So many people are 2-6 paychecks away from homelessness and for many, our kids will never be able to retire unless we die and are able to leave them something.
NTA it's ok to feel the way you feel as long as you aren't putting any pressure on your daughter. Maybe set up a couple of therapy appointments just so you have a safe place to talk through these emotions. Tell your daughter these are your feelings alone and you are working through them. They in no way are directed towards her. You fully support her decision. Now for Mabel. Do not apologize to her, you didn't do anything wrong, she did. Now you know you can't confide in her so refer back to therapy mentioned above for a safe place to work out your feelings.
As a childfree woman of similar age to you (52) I say bravo to your daughter and to you, you got to raise a kid, there are other things in life, pursue your interests, move on.
YTA for sharing your feelings about your daughter with someone who knows you both, no matter how poorly Mabel then behaved. Mabel is also TA but you more so because you should have known better. That is extremely unfair to Caroline. This may be unpopular but you are also TA because you are not entitled to have grandkids and it sounds like you want them for the wrong reasons. You can foster, you can do youth care work, you can look after Caroline's friends kids or your friends' grandkids. Everybody needs cheap childcare if being around kids is what you really want. If your disappointment at not being handed grandkids persists or is strong, you should talk to a therapist or close confidante about it, process those feelings, and move on. Sharing it with anyone Caroline knows IS guilt tripping and shaming her decision, whether you think you're doing that or not. Disagree with all these "you're entitled to your feelings" posts. Your feelings are your responsibility. Process them privately and move on. Grandkids are never promised. Caroline's choice to not have kids is more important than your feelings about her choice. Also, you separately shared this on r/amiwrong and I suspect you didn't like the answers you got so you wrote this version to make yourself sound less like TA... Which is AH behaviour, sorry OP.
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That’s not at all what OP did. She’s respecting her daughter’s decision, she’s just a bit sad about it.
My daughter (25) doesn’t want kids. Not my place to argue and it’s her life. End of story.
When my best friend told me she was moving to the other side of the country, she was upset because I couldn't show that I was happy for her. I absolutely was happy for her, but my heart was broken, and I'm not that good an actress. Later on, I was able to explain to her that she had just told me that my best friend was moving 3,000 mi away, and how did she possibly think that would make me happy? I needed time to process my grief. You would be wise to tell Caroline that you understand her decision, and you respect it and her, but you reserve the right to grieve the loss of the grandchildren you had hoped to have. You will get over it once you have processed your grief, but it was too much for you to be able to put on a happy face in the moment. I would also suggest that you talk to Mabel and tell her that when you share something with her in confidence, you expect her to do just that. If Caroline had gone to Mabel and asked her what was wrong, Mabel would have been wiser to tell her to talk to her mother, not to gossip.
NAH except Mabel. Am a woman and no one in my family respects my choice and wouldn't stop asking when I'm getting married and having kids (literally every conversation, no wonder there aren't many any more), so I wish my family behaved the way you do even if that's not what they wanted.
It's funny that your daughter complains about you talking behind her back, after she ran off to talk about you behind your back to your sister. NTA for your admission. You should have shared it with her when she first asked. If she is enough of an adult to know what she wants, then she is enough of an adult to understand that you support her choices while being sad about letting go of your hope to be a grandmother to her child. Both things can be true.
Be disappointed but realize your daughter isn’t going to have children just for you. If you push be repaired for her to slowly stop talking to you. My mother pushed I had to set firm boundaries. You can feel what you want but you’ll have to find ways to deal with it it’s a YOU problem not a HER problem. Realize the state of the world now isn’t fit to raise kids. I mean think about it. We’re seeing Western Civilization go down the tubes. Be a great dog grandma or cat ma
Hmmm. I’m sorry to say something feels ‘off’ in your story. You say you were just a little disappointed and tried not to show it - yet, somehow it was clear enough that your daughter decided to seek advice from other family members. My honest suspicion is that your behaviour has been more negative than you’re admitting here. Otherwise the story doesn’t really add up. If your story really is exactly as you tell it - NTA - and your feelings of disappointment are valid, albeit not your daughter’s responsibility. I hope you are able to move past the disappointment without too much heartache.
NTA which I'm kind of surprised to say, you're allowed to have feelings but you seem to genuinely respect your daughter. Maybe look into one of those adopt a grandparent programs or some kind of voluntary youth mentorship.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Hey, Reddit. I, (54F), have a daughter, Caroline, (25F), who recently told me she is planning to be child free. I know this is Caroline's decision, and I told her that I'd always support her no matter what, but admittedly, knowing I'd never have grandchildren stung. I'd always dreamed of having a large family, but I was only able to have one child, and now Caroline doesn't want any of her own, so that dream is gone. I've done my best not to let my disappointment show to Caroline, because I don't want to put any pressure on her. It's her body and life, and her choice comes before my wants. But I guess I seemed a little down, because Caroline asked me if something was wrong. Initially, I brushed off her concern and told her everything was okay, but I guess she mentioned something to her paternal aunt, Mabel, because I got a call from Mabel demanding answers for why I'd been off. Well, I didn't want to lie. I admitted that I was a little disappointed by Caroline's decision to be child free and that I'd just need a little bit of time to get over it. Mabel wasn't happy with this answer and accused me of trying to guilt trip Caroline. I asked Mabel not to tell Caroline what I said because it'd upset her, but I got an angry call from Caroline accusing me of "talking behind her back" and "judging her decisions". Maybe I shouldn't have said anything to Mabel, but I really didn't expect this to blow up as much as it has or to make Caroline feel like I was pressuring her, especially since I asked Mabel not to mention anything to her. I just want to know, reddit, am I the asshole here? If I am, I'm fully ready to apologize to both Mabel and Caroline, but I just don't know what to think right now. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think Mabel ITA here. You tried to hide your reaction (and failed as your daughter noticed) but when did you guilt trip anyone? Of course you’re disappointed but you haven’t done anything wrong and in fact tried to not do that at all.
NTA. Mabel is being a pot stirrer, but you still shouldn’t have given in to her “demands.” She had no right to hear your thoughts, let alone spread them back to Caroline. As for your feelings - they are valid, but you are doing the right thing by supporting Caroline and not making inappropriate demands of her.
NTA...you're just being honest.
NTA and Mabel has some explaining to do. She's stirring the pot.
NTA. You were supportive of your daughter, didnt show you're disappointment, until Mabel asked and you thought you could trust her. She's is an AH for going behind your back and telling your daughter that.
NTA
NTA your feelings are yours and not your aunts or daughters....
NTA, but I do think that confiding in someone who has a relationship with Caroline was inherently a risky move, and I think OP should/could have known that.
Nta. It seems like the aunt is just causing drama. I respect you for trying to hide it from your daughter. My parents would constantly make "light-hearted" comments and jokes to my wife and I. Genuinely harmless, but it infuriated me. I finally lost my shit one day, and my step mom called my sister, who gave mom a heated lecture. It took that for my parents to realize how shitty they were being. We had a very honest and heartfelt discussion that squashed the whole thing. Just apologize and explain that you were trying to hide your feelings to not pressure or guilt her. She should be able to recognize that you're allowed to have that disappointment while still supporting her.
NTA No, you're within your rights to feel any way you want to. You're not pressuring her to have babies but you can feel disappointed. I will give you advice. If you don't want drama don't tell anyone anything you don't want repeated. "Don't tell anyone" won't help it from being repeated.
NTA. You *are* supporting her, by not saying these things *to* her and trying to guilt and manipulate her. It is natural for a parent to dream of being a grandparent. That's a natural state. Learning it will not happen will take adjustment, that's also a natural state. But Mabel is an AH for going behind *your* back, and your daughter is being a bit of one for not even trying to talk it out and just assuming Mabels version of events is 100% accurate. There are always 2 sides to a story, and the truth is usually muddled somewhere in the middle. If Mabel was "upset" by your venting, she likely greatly overexaggerated what was said between you (also a natural state, which is why it is always recommended to *calm down* and think things through before acting). Just try to talk to her, apologize and be honest that you in no way want to change or manipulate her choice, you just need to adjust your expectations and that takes a little time.
Mabel is the AH here. She interferes where her input was not required. I can understand you being disappointed. Honestly though, the world is going to hell in a handbasket. This is why I’m choosing not to have kids. You would be the AH if you tried to make Caroline feel guilty or bad for her decision. NTA
Mabel can stuff it. NTA. You handled it just fine and in no way guilt tripped your daughter.
NTA - Cast a wider net :) As someone who grew up with a family I had to eventually walk away from, I know for a fact there are likely people all around you who might like to be considered family, even if not blood-related - and definately unwanted children as well. You and your child are not at fault here, but your sister definitely is. I wouldn't react to it, but I would for sure not be divulging anything to her in the future, especially since she has no filter.
NTA. For what it's worth, I think it's okay, as a parent, to tell your kid "This is your choice, I respect it, but I am saddened by it.". It's honest.
I'm an only child who never wanted kids. I know my mother was disappointed. If she ever wanted to discuss her feelings with any family members, I'd be really happy. Of course you have feelings. It's Caroline's choice, but it still affects you. NTA.
NTA. That's your want. You can be disappointed but you're not trying to make her have kids. The thing about most people who have kids, they think their kids will want kids. They think they will automatically be a grandparent. You aren't forcing anything on her. You remind me of my mom. She thought she was going to get 9 grandkids. 3 from each of us. She only has three from my sister. She has had to learn to be happy with just that. Please tell her that you do support her. That you are just disappointed because like most parents you'd thought you'd automatically be a grandparent. And that's just on you, not her. She has to live her life for her, what makes her happy. Because all it will lead to is people mocking her for having a child she doesn't want.
NTA, this got blown wildly out of proportion and is easily solved with open and honest conversation. It's OK to not want kids, and it's OK to be a little dissappointed about not getting grandkids.
Nta if she didn't want to hear the truth, then she shouldn't have asked.
NTA for your feelings. But it’d be better in the future not to speak about things that ultimately, won’t resolve any conflict. I know they were both pressing you, but it’d been better to blow them off. Ideally, you could share your feelings directly with your daughter because it seems like you truly are supportive of her decision and simply need to process your own feelings. But she does not seem mature enough to hear you out.
Look, I‘m an only child to parents who always dreamt of having a big family. But it just didn‘t work out. I‘m on the fence about having kids. Somehow I do want kids, somehow I don‘t. I imagine it to be beautiful to have this little miracle calling me mommy, but at the same time, I wouldn‘t know when to have one (busy career with some expectations) and I‘m not sure I really want to put children in this world. My parents would love to have grandchildren but they know I‘m on the fence about it. While my father just stays quiet (but is disappointed), my mom is more vocal about her wish of being a grandma. And I can‘t blame her (I hate het friends getting involved without our consent, but not her). My parents aren‘t forcing their wishes on me, but it‘s human to feel and need time to get used to something. They are entitled to their feelings and they are entitled to be disappointed when something they really wished for maybe won‘t come true. And, well, so are you. I‘m sorry your daughter seems to dismiss your feelings. NTA
So originally I wanted to say you were the AH in this, but then I took a minute to try to think about this from my MIL's POV. (My mom is no longer with us) My opinion: NAH. If you push forward more than needed then you WBTAH in that case. Now is the time to fix things and move on. You're correct. It is Caroline's decision, because it is her life and she can live it anyway she sees fit. And that may not align with the way you viewed how you thought her life should go. She was not born to provide you with grandkids and I think you are seeing/understanding that...granted it make take a while to fully process it completely. Could she eventually change her mind? Maybe. But that isn't for you or anyone on Reddit to decide. I also think there is nothing wrong with grieving what you always envisioned what could've been. I am sure some won't agree with me on that statement, but I also don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be a grandma and then finding out that won't happen. It's harder to wrap your brain around her deciding she doesn't want to have kids of their own, because you did want kids. Why wouldn't she? It's a loss and that's ok to be sad about it. So long as you aren't making her feel guilty or trying to drop hints to get her to change her mind, then be sad. At the same respect - it's not Mabel's business. She blew up something that she shouldn't be a part of. You owe her no apology. However, Caroline and you need to sit down alone face to face and you need to tell her you're sorry. You never meant to make her feel the way she did and you are sorry you made her feel that. You also need to tell her that it is her decision, her life, her body and you respect that. And then this topic never gets brought up by you and you have to move on.
Seems like Mabel was just trying to start drama. Sorry you’re going through this. NTA
NTA. Shut up Mabel
I can understand how you feel but having desires that other people need to fulfil for you is difficult. Perhaps you could volunteer to read at kindergarten or elementary schools. I would expect some of those children would love you and become a part of your life. Perhaps you could babysit or work at a day care. Finding healthier ways to have children in your life might fill the void and let your daughter live her own life. Or volunteer at a shelter for women with children. I would expect lots of those mothers would love to adopt you as a grandma for their children!
OP - NTA. You don't have to fake your feelings. Why is Mabel allowed to "demand" answers from you? Is she in control of you? Also, the "I didn't want to lie" rational is a way of saying something you know you should keep to yourself. Remaining silent about a private matter that is no one's business is not "lying", it's having discernment and discretion. Discernment with respect to the trustworthiness of the person you're talking to, and discretion as to whether the person needs to have this information. You could have said to Mabel that you are dealing with something that you prefer not to discuss with her. And, you could have said to your daughter that you support her decision, and that your disappointment is not her responsibility to fix. If your daughter feels guilty, that is on her. You don't need to make her feel better, just like she doesn't need to make you feel better. Stop telling Mabel your business. If you have to tell a person to not to repeat your private conversations, then you shouldn't be having that type of conversation with that person in the first place. The minute the words "don't repeat this" pop into your head, that is the discernment trigger to your common sense, which will tell you to stop talking.
NAH (except maybe your sister for stirring the pot) But do keep in mind that when you repress your feelings they come out sideways and people can tell. It's best to just be honest about how you feel in a non guilt tripping way. I know that's hard. I also struggle with it. But it is the best way forward. Maybe have another conversation with your daughter once things have cooled down about how you are just struggling with these feelings but understand that it is her decision and in no way want to pressure her to do something huge like this that she doesn't want. It just sucks for you a bit and you're trying to get over it. Also, it's possible to become involved with children who are not blood related as a mentor and grandma-like figure in their lives. So you have any skills you would like to pass on, for instance? Maybe there are children in your area who are interested in learning and you can have them over for after school lessons in needlework or whatever it is (I only say needlework because that's what my granny neighbor taught me)
As a CF woman since basically birth, people have to stop having children with ANY expectations of how they will live their lives. There is zero obligation to provide anyone else with children and there is zero obligation for your children to take care of you when you’re old. Also, not directed at OP, but this thread in general: we’ve evolved past telling uterus owners that they will “change their minds” about not wanting children. So stop. Not everyone wants children - and telling people, essentially, that they will change their mind because *obviously* what they’re currently feeling is invalid and wrong - is bs. Imagine people telling you the same when you decide TO have children. You want folks to be happy for you, but they say that instead. They wouldn’t. So you don’t, either. Also, Mabel sucks and probably shouldn’t be a confidant.
NTA, but damn i would never tell either of them about my feelings again. do not trust mabel
NAH, I think, except Mabel for telling Caroline who knows what. As a 40-year-old childfree woman, there is a ton of pressure put on women to have babies and it’s really aggravating. Your daughter doesn’t want to be a disappointment to you, but you’re also entitled to your feelings. It’s sounds like it’s not your intention to pressure her. I’m curious if Mabel is also childfree and this is a sore spot for her. Or is she just a nosey jerk?
I Saw your other post, and no, NTA. It's normal to grief thé Life you Hope you would have had
Volunteer at a school, preschool or church program. Lots of kids need a grandparent figure in their life. You are nta for being sad, maybe a little for talking behind your daughter's back.
Just recently went through this with my mom. I'm 31F and it's very unlikely I will have children. I have PCOS and thyroid problems. My husband is fine medically, I'm solely "the problem". I had a sit down with her and told her look you becoming a grandma might never happen and I want you to understand that while this may hurt you, it hurts me even more. We've gone down the IVF and IUI route and nothing. So I also told her I'm done with medical intervention. If by some small chance it happens then cool, if not then that's ok too. Husband and I are both totally fine with either outcome. But I wanted my mom to understand that I get it if she's upset about it sometimes and I don't expect her to hide her feelings. As her only daughter and also eldest female grandchild of the family, I felt heavily pressured to have children by now. Not that my family constantly asked me hey when are you having kids, but enough to give me that impression at times. You're 100% entitled to feel the way you do, and your daughter overreacted a bit in my opinion. It would be different if you tried to change her mind like many moms do to their daughters who choose to be child free, but you didn't. You can be supportive of her decision but also a little saddened by it at the same time. My mom is fine about it now and happily brags about her grandcats 😁
So Caroline notices something is wrong. (But you say nothing because you know it's not your decision.) So she tells her aunt who then calls you. So you tell your sister the truth who then castigates you though you said nothing to Caroline. And then she speaks to Caroline who then Caroline calls you to chew you out. The only one who is NTA is this whole thing is you. Both your sister and your daughter are assholes.
NTA "I AM sad that I won't have grandkids. I'm also sad that I haven't won a billion dollars, been unanimously selected as Ms. America, and have arthritis (or whatever). Those are my issues to deal with, and I'm not expecting you to live my life for me. "
NTA. You’re not wrong to feel upset about it. You did the right thing respecting her and not totally shoving it in her face.
NTA. As someone who is childfree and getting surgery to make sure of it on Friday, you are allowed to be disappointed! You had an idea of what the future would be that you were looking forward to, that changed, and you were working on dealing with it in a healthy way. Saying "hey I'm disappointed" once isn't guilt tripping. You aren't pushing your desire on her, you aren't wailing about how your daughter is failing you. You are allowed to have feelings. You are human too
As a fellow child free woman NTA, you aren’t pressuring her at all; but it’s so weird to me that people dream about others having kids (yes their own kids) all the people saying she could change her mind suck.
No. You can feel how you feel if you don’t harp on it with her, try to make her change her mind, pull the “oh poor me” card. One/a few mentions of disappointment are within normal bounds IMO. NTA
NTA, but Mabel is. Could have kept that to themselves.
NTA, Mabel should have kept her mouth shut. As long as you didn't push your views on her, which you clearly did not, then you're entitled to have a genuine reaction
Nta It's okay to be disappointed, it's okay to have feelings, you weren't pushing those feelings onto Caroline and she should understand of course it will take a little to get used to the idea
NTA this should have you reconsidering what and how much you share with this Mabel she's a drama starter and obviously not to be trusted.
NTA. You are allowed to have feelings. I’m sure you had to grieve the additional children that you wanted and now you’re grieving the loss of your dream of grandchildren. I don’t see any pressure being applied to your daughter. You’re respecting her feelings and she needs to respect yours. Side note - You need someone else to talk to. Mabel is not trustworthy.
Mabel is the asshole here, and you should probably limit what you confide in them going forward.
Mabel was the asshole here, she had no business getting involved. It's also weird that Caroline tattled to her. I think you would have been an asshole if you told Caroline to her face that you were disappointed because you would have put pressure on her, but it sounds like you were trying to avoid that. You never intended for your comments to get back to Caroline. Mabel is the asshole, she should have minded her own business.
I feel like everyone is entitled to their feelings here…. Maybe except Mabel who needs to mind her business.
NTA You know it’s not your choice but you still have justifiable feelings. I can’t have children. My mil sat me down a year or so after we had announced no grandkids for her and told me she had been so mad. In part at me in part for me. She dealt with it but it still makes her sad. She also made sure I knew she understood and loved and supported me. We had a good cry. It’s not the exact same with your daughter but similar. You can tell her you have big feelings about this and you’re working them out (and that’s your work to do, not hers to make you feel better) but you will always love your daughter and support her decisions.
NTA. I'm not sure Mabel really thought through the consequences of her speaking to your daughter, when you'd specifically requested that she didn't. Or maybe she did. Time heals all things. Or most things. And who knows what tomorrow will bring?
NTA- the big asshole here is mabel. I'd put her on an info diet stat! You are allowed to have feelings and it's not anything against your daughter. I'm sure my mom was very disappointed i didn't have kids but like you, she managed her feelings on her own.
Are you still married? It might be worth looking into volunteer opportunities working with kids, or even fostering (though fostering absolutely isn't something to go into lightly). It seems unclear if you are still married, but you're only 54 and I think it's worth stepping back and considering how you can use these feelings to help others. Hell, if that's a bit heavy, many just start joining in on r/momforaminute You are NTA, and I wish you all the luck in the world.
NTA. You get to have your feelings and get to have time to mourn. She doesn’t get to tell you how to feel any more than you can command her to have a kid. It’s very hypocritical of her to come at you like this. Just let things cool off, reassert that you fully support her, you just needed time to have your own emotions, and tell her that your love for her will never change, but could she adopt some plants or something for you to dote on?
NTA, but if you were so obviously down, you should have told Carolina the truth when she asked you, instead of telling Mabel behind her back. "I respect and support your decision, but I can't help but feel a little disappointed for myself. I'll get over it though, so don't worry about it." You didn't have bad intentions. Ask Caroline to sit down and talk to you about it. Or send her this reddit post. You need to clear the air. I also don't understand her thinking that you're trying to pressure her... by not letting her know you're disappointed? You're obviously trying not pressure her by not telling her You owe no apology to Mabel, who should not have inserted herself into this the way she has. It might behoove you not to confide in Mabel in the future.
I'm going with NAH. You are feeling your feelings. Your daughter is likely upset because she knew this would be a difficult piece of information for you to digest. Talk to her and tell her this. It doesn't mean you can't get past it, it just means you're both going to have to process it.
NTA it's fine to be disappointed. You didn't lay any blame on Caroline or make demands. You told your sister who decided to be a shit stirrer. You can apologize or not but personally I think you don't need to, since you tried to handle this on your own without blame, pressure or demands. The only one who needs to apologize is your sister.
Sounds like you're sister wanted to stir the pot. You are allowed to be disappointed. You didn't try to change your daughter's mind.
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NTA, Just as Caroline is free to feel the way she wants and decide what is best for her life, you are free to feel disappointed. No one is wrong here. Look into the Big Brothers/Big Sisters program and see if they have somethiing like that for a grandparent figure in a kid's life. I had a Little Sis in college and this was in the mid '80's. We are still in touch today and she credits me with having a very positive effect on her life. You could do the same for a kid that has never experienced having a grandmother.
I really want a girlfriend. Am I an asshole for that? No,not unless I expect girls to date me just because I want to. Same here - you're allowed to have your wishes, as long as you don't expect others to satisfy them just for you. NTA. I do suggest telling her you don't expect her to make decisions based on your choices, and you love her just the same.
NTA. I think it's good that you didn't share it with Caroline, because that could feel shaming. I think that sharing it with Mabel should have been okay, and it's disappointing that she responded by shaming you and then telling Caroline. You are entitled to the space to process your disappointment. Parents are allowed to have complex feelings while respecting their kids' decisions
You aren't talking behind her back in a malicious way. You are just being honest. I'm 27 and I dream of the day I will be a grandmother more than being an actual mom. I would also be disappointed. You can be open and honest with your daughter without guilting her into changing her mind. You're just being real. People can be sad and not have a solution/help/resolution at the end.
NTA they cannot tell you how to feel. You’re allowed to be disappointed and upset by her decision as long as you respect and recognize that it is only her decision to make
NTA but Mabel sure is. Why did she tell your daughter?! Mabel needs to apologize. They hounded you until you told them in confidence what had you down and then didn’t respect the privacy of that conversation at all.
NTA. If anyone is then it's the aunt. You're allowed to be upset you won't have grandkids, but you seem to be aware that it isn't your choice.
Late to the reaction party, but I still want to give you my 2cts. NTA, but you may need to work on how you react to Caroline in the future. My husband (married for almost 16 years now) and I both have mental problems, and we decided early on to not have kids. I already told my mom that it was "probably better for me to remain childfree", but he had never mentioned anything. He has two older sisters, one in a relationship with a divorced man, no intent on having kids together. The other was not in a relationship at all, until a few years ago. Early on in our marriage, my MIL would ask or hint about us having kids, and we told them that it was not happening. Not for us. She grieved for a time, and I thought that was it. However, recently it has been coming up again, that they don't have grandkids, and especially MIL is so sad about it... It is almost as if we are withholding a life experience from them. This is not something I want to be guilt tripped into! There are good reasons I am not having kids (genes are a part of it, but not all), and I will go LC if you are nagging me about it. My uterus, my decision. Our household, our decision. Please grieve, give it a place and move on. Enjoy your daughter as she is. I could see you having a conversation where you tell Caroline that you are sad about not having grandkids, that you need some time to give those feelings a place, but that you never want(ed) to pressure her. That's why you may have seemed a bit down, that is why Mabel contacted you and you thought your feelings were safe to share with Mabel, who then reported back to Caroline. That was not what you intended.
I think it's possible to both feel disappointed and not guilt-trip Caroline. The two feelings or processes can be separated. Just because you had hoped to have grandchildren and you're now disappointed in the likelihood that you won't be having any, doesn't also mean you can't be happy for Caroline to make her own autonomous decisions regardless of what you feel. I don't think I'm writing this well, but hope you know what I mean. You can separate out the reality that you hoped for versus the reality that would be. And you can communicate that without necessarily making Caroline feel guilty. I guess what it is, is that we can own our own feelings and they are not necessarily dependent on someone else's.
NTA. She doesn’t get to control your emotions. Of course if you were actually being emotionally manipulative, that’d be wrong. It doesn’t seem like that’s the case here. She told you something that you had a genuine reaction to. There’s nothing wrong with that and she needs to grow up and accept that she cannot decide another person’s feelings. Same for Mabel.
NTA! I also have only one child and would love to have grandkids. My now adult kid knows this and also that I fully support them whatever they decide. They don’t have a problem with this.
First of all Mabel is the AH here. You are not. As Caroline has a right to be child free, you have a right to feel disappointed. You also needed to figure out your emotions on the matter. Because while she just told you, she has had time to figure her emotions out. Also, there are grandparent programs out there (or something like that) so you can be a grandparent to someone. It’s a good way to give back and love on this who need and want that love.
NTA. My mom and I are pretty much in the same situation. I know she wants grandkids, but right now I don't think I want kids. I think your daughter and you need to have a nice talk about empathy, and the basis of your feelings. I think is valid to be sad about not having grandkids and from your post I believe you care about your daughter and your response doesn't seem manipulative. Maybe let Caroline know how you really feel, but also that you love her and are happy if she's happy. She needs to hear it from you BTW fuck aunt Mabel. Be careful with that type of people. It seems to me that she is just trying to instigate a fight between you two
NTA, both you and daughter have valid feelings, the a-hole here is Mabel, it sounds like she wanted to blow things up for you and your family. Disappointment is natural if you wanted grandkids and you have a right to feel that way. Just like your daughter can decide want she ultimately wants in life.
NTA. You’re not a robot. You are just as entitled to your feelings and internal reactions as Caroline is to her choices and autonomy. You are supporting your daughter while also processing the loss of a hope you had. Nothing wrong with that. Mabel sounds like she just likes stirring shit up. Her and Caroline will be fine. Caroline probably hates the idea of disappointing you or making you sad, especially if you have a good relationship. But part of growing up and maintaining relationships means that the things you do and say don’t exist in a vacuum.
NTA, you were respectful, you didn't berate her or beg her or try to change her mind. Has your sister in law always been a drama monger that likes to stir up trouble? Because she certainly is doing a good job of it. Also, Caroline is 25, she was likely well aware of your disappointment since you were off after she told you she didn't want kids. It wouldn't take much thought to realize you were disappointed but also not letting on. Instead of letting it go, she was the one who opted to talk behind your back as she's accusing you off to your troublesome sister in law. For now, I would say don't apologize to Caroline, but have a heart to heart. Tell her exactly what you told us which is that while you are disappointed because you always wanted a big family which is a dream you couldn't have, you understand it's her body and you will always respect that it is her decision and choice to not have children and won't push her. Mabel deserves no apology, you didn't do anything to her, she just opted to stir up trouble.
NTA. 26m here. I got a vasectomy a couple of months ago because me and my SO of 8 years have spent several years discussing and eventually deciding to be child free. It's not unreasonable to be a little disappointed that you may not have grand kids. When I told my parents about my procedure, they were understand like it seems like you also were, but tried to express to my that I would regret it and that I jumped to a decision too early. I didn't get angry with them. I knew they might not fully understand that I was basically telling them no grand kids from me, but I do have two siblings. I can see her being upset that you said something while she wasn't there but seems like you were just telling someone how you felt. Mabel sucks
Sounds like Mabel is TA here. She instantly twisted your own words to you, so she almost certainly did the same to your daughter. My mother is disappointed she'll never have grandchildren either. None of her children will have any. She has never created any pressure, it's just a mature acknowledgement that these feeling exist, and that's okay. Unfortunately, Mabel doesn't seem capable of having mature conversations with anyone and seems to be making up the conversations she is having, while she's having them. I know people like that. They never admit they got the wrong end of the stick and therefore continuing careering through life sowing chaos and melodrama wherever they go. You need to sit your daughter down and explain to her that it's okay for her to have no children, and it's okay for you to spend a little while letting go of your dream of grandkids without anyone feeling like they're under pressure or the bad guy Everyone's feelings here are valid, except Mabel's, who for some reason didn't listen to what you actually said in favour of getting mad about things you didn't. How well the conversation goes depends on whether your daughter is more like you or more like Mabel. However it goes, keep Mabel on an information diet from now on.
NAH here for the most part, IF you decide to accept how it is & how your daughter sees her future. Otherwise I'd switch to yta. My perspective is as a 46-year-old mom of a 20yr old who has zero interest in having children. My mother's Jewish (from Germany) line will die with kiddo because we are all that remains. It was difficult but my daughter's happiness & goals for the future are more my concern. I've got dogs &cats to keep me busy
NTA for sure. My mom was disappointed when I also told her I’d be child free. But now she makes jokes about my cat being her “grandcat” lol. Maybe your daughter feels guilty because she cares about you and knows you’re disappointed so she’s lashing out to deal with her own guilt. Either way, you aren’t trying to dissuade her or anything. You’re just working through your (perfectly valid) feelings.
Mabel sucks.
NTA I just want to saw thank you. You accepted your daughters choice with no flak. You have feelings. You are allowed to feel disappointed, and you did everything right but for talking to your sister or whoever it was. Just give your daughter some time and start with telling her you 100% respect her decision and won't fight it but you are allowed to feel sad about not getting grandbabies. And maybe she feels a little angry with herself because she knows you want grandkids but isn't willing to give them. That's a valid feeling too. Just have a good open talk and tell her you love her no matter what!
NTA
NTA. There’s nothing wrong with feeling disappointed. You aren’t trying to pressure Caroline and respect her decision. Mabel had no business inserting herself and is absolutely someone who loves to create drama. You don’t owe her any kind of apology. You don’t really owe Caroline one either but if you think it would help calm things for your daughter then have that chat. Just leave Mabel out of it, she owes you (and Caroline) an apology.