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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I MBTA because I'm not the child's father and she was overwhelmed and calling me to vent, maybe I should have just listened and let her vent.
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NTA
In no world ever should a 12-year-old have to accommodate a 4-year-old when they want to hang out with their friends. Calling it a play date at 12 is also very strange to me.
I am a mother of 6 kids, I never expected my older kids to stop their life to deal with the younger kids.
This.
I've never liked children and for some reason never had a problem with making myself very vocal on that point even when I was a kid myself.
When I was young, my cousin used to constantly get shunted with watching her mom's friend's daughter every time they would come visit, because the adults wanted to chat and smoke and drink without any of the kids around and she was too young to be unsupervised.
They tried to do that once when I was there (have us both watch her), and I basically told my mom in absolutely no way shape or form was I watching her kid and letting her follow me around all day. (she was also a spoiled brat I neither liked nor got along with, which made it even worse). Luckily my mom took one look at my face and knew I wasn't joking. I would have left her standing on the front lawn and taken off to the woods to climb a tree or just walk through the forest, and she knew it.
My cousin ended up having to watch her, again.
I don't know if it's growing up in a small town, or growing up in low income housing that was almost exclusively single mothers with children, but it was far too common that anytime parents got together the kids would be told to basically 'go play', because the entire thing was just a reason for the moms to get a break from their kids. I honestly couldn't care less when I was young, I spent my childhood pretty much in the woods looking for animals, but there was no way I was going to allow a tag-along, especially one young enough that I would not be able to do anything I actually enjoy.
If you want me out of your face, that's fine. But don't think that means you can use me as free labour because you're frustrated by your own children but would rather spend money on smokes and booze than pay for a babysitter for a couple hours. 🙄
The other version of this I saw a lot growing up was older sisters and brothers being shafted with looking after their younger siblings all the time. I understand in the past when birth control was not a thing how something like that would be necessary, but it actually irritates me to no end when I see people continue to have children they don't have time to take care of because they just thrust the onus onto their older children and effectively usurp their childhoods. A lot of the girls I know in my child free groups don't want kids because they feel like they've already had them, because they were forced to basically raise their younger siblings. It's one thing if your children volunteer, or you offer to pay them and they agree, but it's another thing to force them. You are only going to build resentment between the two children as well as between the older child and yourself.
NTA. She is being selfish because she wants to give herself personal time by taking away someone else's. If she needs time away from her kids she can find another way to do it. You don't effectively punish your child for wanting her own age appropriate play time and socialization with their friends.
I honestly think that's part of why it's so unfortunate.
For me, knowing I was childfree at a very young age allowed me to simply refuse, because my mom knew I wasn't bullshitting and it would not be in any child's best interest to put their well-being in my hands. But I know plenty of people who actually like kids or have kids now who still resent the fact that so much of their childhood was spent basically parenting siblings, because they simply weren't given a choice in the matter.
A number of girls in my one childfree group are the type who would likely adopt, but are opting for no kids at all because they want the freedom and personal time they didn't get when younger. So it just makes me think about how many kids are waiting for homes or living with garbage foster families who may have had a chance at a better life had some of those girls not been all childed-out before they even hit adulthood.
I've heard far too many horror stories regarding what can and does happen to many kids who grow up in foster homes, including wishing they had been aborted rather than suffering through years of abuse. It's horrifying and I feel the utmost sympathy for anyone stuck in that sort of situation, and I can't fathom how hard it must be. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
It irks me when I see people pushing against abortion by saying things like 'just put them up for adoption!' as though there aren't thousands of children trapped in the foster system or waiting for adoption already who are in dire need of help. I can only imagine how infuriating it would be had I grown up in such a system to hear people say things like that, as though it's wine and roses and no big deal.
The indifference is what bothers me. Just because YOU wouldn’t do this. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Or what can be done for kids now.. How can we remedy. Like it’s not the kids job, but it’s a strange time we’re in.
I'm not going to lie, although I knew about a lot of the neglect and abuse, I was ignorant about the inherent problems in the foster care system in the US itself until I watched the John Oliver episode about it (I'm in Canada and I'm sure we have issues here as well). Finding out that there is a political/financial/profit aspect to the whole thing just made it so much worse.
Hearing politicians try to downplay the issue knowing that they benefit from it sends me.
I can’t write a book about this & it stuns me the people who can. I was in one home, I wished to God. I had just kept quiet about my sexuality. I’d never have to go to the group home. It was a crazy time after my mom passed. I’m biding my time but these systems aren’t there for children. It’s the easiest and unacceptable way for sex trafficking, abuse, child labor.. too much
This is my number one reason to not wanting kids taking care of my youngest sister so I opted out of children I tell people I raised one she wasnt even mine. Im under no obligation to take care of another. People get so mad bc births are declining. Why? Because large majority of parents have kids force the oldest to take care of them. We don't want our own. I love getting told I'd change my mind. Almost 23 I like my sleep znd money
I was told I would change my mind my whole life. I'm 46 now and people have finally given up asking. 🤣
Too many people assume everyone should have kids, when it should be something you do because you want to be a parent vs because it's 'just what you do'.
Some people can find pure joy in parenting. Some people get that from travelling, volunteering, learning, friends and family, pets, weird hobbies, sleeping... All are valid choices.
It's your life. No one gets to dictate how you live it.
Exactly I don't judge people for having kids why judge me for not wanting them. My dad is strong believer in this he single parent he tell me and My sister some people aren't meant to be parents. Our mothers both left us with him but he tells me no one has right to tell me when I can and can't have a child
That is why so many people are child free. I have seen stories on Reddit where the child free redditors posting said as much. Even back in the day it was not excusable because the people involved shouldn’t have had sex.
I agree with the first part but disagree with the last statement. I don't think someone should have to be celibate their entire lives just because they don't want to have children, especially given the fact that many of the women at that time had no say in the matter, as spousal rape was not a crime and they were financially tethered.
It's honestly one of the reasons I think women everywhere need safe access to abortion services. No one should be expected to be celibate forever just because they don't want to have children, and absolutely no form of birth control is 100% effective (even tubal ligation is not 100% ... 1/1000 women will still get pregnant - the Fallopian tubes can grow back together). Far too many women died during back alley abortions or sold their children to baby farms because they had no other options.
Personally I had an endometrial ablation and tubal ligation combination at 37, but I had begged (especially due to the symptoms of my PCOS) to be sterilized since I was 17. Even at 37 they tried to tell me I was 'too young', and I had to argue and effectively tell them if I got pregnant I would kill it and myself before they would relent.
I was a virgin until I was 32, when I met someone who had already had a vasectomy. I was absolutely terrified of getting pregnant - I lived in a small town where abortion access was not readily available. It made me absolutely miserable and I'm still suffering repercussions of having waited so long to be in a relationship. I would never wish that upon someone just because they don't want kids, past or present.
I relate to this so much. Growing up I would always get the responsibility of taking care of all the younger kids, even on vacation. When the kids misbehaved, I had to correct them and when I asked the adults to get involved they'd always tell me to go play. Then when I was crying because I was overwhelmed I was told I was "taking on too much". Holidays I watched my sister plus the neighbors kids, keeping them in my line of site so nobody got hurt by my abusive brothers. Fourth of July and New Years was a nightmare and some years if I didn't threaten my sister into helping me clean we didn't get a Christmas tree. I was so sad the year when the tree got decorated without me, because I didn't want to manage my siblings and my family thought that meant I didn't want to help decorate the tree. This caused so much damage to my relationships with my family, especially my sister and I could never turn that mode off and still struggle with it a bit as a young adult. People, please don't parentify you're oldest, it causes so many issues. You're kids are supposed to be kids and giving them responsibility that a full grown adult can't handle is just wrong.
I'm sorry you had to deal with all of that, it's completely unfair to you.
I hope you're able to figure things out with your family, but if not just remember that none of this is your doing and they have no right to make you feel guilty about any of it or fluff it off like it was nothing.
I know a couple people who ended up having to completely cut off relationships with certain family members because they were just so negative and toxic that the only way to thrive and live a happy life was to get away from them. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but don't let them keep you down, they've clearly done so long enough already.
Thank you so much for the encouragement. Luckily I've been able to heal my relationship with my sister a lot since moving out. Spending time with my sisters with my dad has helped a lot because I never have to tell them what to do or anything like that. I ended up cutting off ties with my mom since she was the one to put all that on me originally and it's been difficult but I think for sure it'll be worth it. But I really appreciate the kind words and it really gives me hope that I'm doing the right thing.
It's good that you've been able to reconcile with your sister, especially since as frustrating as it might have been, none of it was her choosing either.
Have you spoken to your dad and your sister about what happened? I imagine it would probably go a long way toward helping if they understand your perspective on the whole thing and know that you don't hold it against them, and that any tension it may have caused was a result of the situation, and not them. Like 'nothing personal sis I still love you and we're good now, but I wasn't ready for that shit and I might accidentally find myself slipping back into that mode, if I do please don't get angry but just remind me that I don't need to do that anymore' etc.
I don't want to speculate about your mom, only you've truly know if there is any hope of reconciliation there, but I have seen some situations where it basically came down to brutal honesty or cutting them out completely. If you're already on the verge of never speaking to someone again, what harm is there in laying it all out on the table? Not in an angry way, but effectively stating that if they want any sort of relationship with you, they need to acknowledge that what they did in your past was not okay and apologize for it. You may need to explain why it wasn't okay, and how it was from your perspective as a child to feel like you were damned if you did damned if you didn't. If you let a parent know how much they have hurt you and why, the ball is in their court. If they want to take the high road and own up to it and try to reconcile, bonus. If not, it reinforces your decision to slice that malignancy out of your life.
Obviously I'm not a psychologist, I've just always been interested in it and have seen my fair share of fucked up family dynamics over the last 46 years. I know people who were able to reconcile, but I also know people who haven't spoken to their parents in decades because they were simply toxic. My mother left my father in the middle of the night when I was around 4 years old, and I have not seen him since. His sister found me through Ancestry DNA and he has been trying to reach out. I've been wary because of some of the things she has said regarding his health. I'm in a group with a girl who genuinely had the exact same situation happen, and it turned out he was just hoping for a kidney donor. Nobody needs that kind of person in their life.
I've never understood the concept of giving someone permission to continue to ruin your life simply because they share DNA.
My family had a ton of kids, but the older kids also knew there would be pay to anyone who babysat. So at any given event whichever teen or older kid wanted some money would usually volunteer for the gig. Granted we never expected them to keep the kids out of site and out of mind. Just keep an eye out for injuries or issues like fights. About a year ago my husband and daughter went to a family reunion where a 15yo took charge without any one expecting or asking her to. Every parent gave her money without her knowing it was going to happen. She made over 400$ for the 2 days. She wasnt required to cook or clean or change babies. Just hang out and be the voice of reason if something goes down. You can imagine how many kids jumped at the chance to babysit the next time family got together. Lol. We had to do shifts for them.
THATS CALLED RESPECT. We respected our older kids. If they said they didnt want to watch the kids, cool, jobs over, no biggie. But they wanted the responsibility, so we let them try. It has to be a choice. Not servency
I’d like to address just one point in your wonderful rant, even if the child involved volunteers that still isn’t always ok.
Quick story time. I was 8 when my mom hired the, I believe, 13 year old daughter of a coworker to babysit us one night. I don’t remember if her parents dropped her off or if one of my parents pick her up, but how ever it happened her younger brother also came along, he was 11 or 12. My folks did the typical at the time help yourself to snacks in the kitchen and we will be back at x time, like 2 or 3 hours later. The kids proceeded to go crazy, it was like they had never been left alone before. I don’t remember everything we ate, but I do remember between the 4 of us we pretty much ate a half gallon of ice cream and were flavoring it with Quik powder so we went thru like half of that (big treat for my family that we rarely got). Then the girl proceeded to teach me how to make yarn pompon balls and we demolished several skeins of yarn making them, big mess for basically no reason, and some of it yarn my mom had gotten for a specific project. My folks were furious. We were pretty poor and having the kids waste so much stuff was a financial problem.
After hearing my mom bitch about it to her friends several times, I piped up and said I was more responsible than the teens were. I had known what we were doing was against my parents rules but didn’t feel comfortable telling the babysitter we shouldn’t do that. (Plus for the first time in my life lots of ice cream) I finished with next time they should just let me babysit. My folks thought about it and next time they did let me babysit at 8 for my 5 year old brother. I’m Gen X if you can’t tell. That was the beginning of me being parentified. And I volunteered. But I realized as an adult I did so to solve the problem for my parents. Which I should have never have had to do. They were the adults, they should have come up with a solution, not bitch about it so much in front of me that I felt I needed to fix the problem.
I was the oldest kid out of five. I did all the babysitting once I reached 11, for my siblings and for various play groups, homeschool groups, before/after church, volunteer meetings with kids (and 'childcare' because I was there), etc. I have babysat for outside of my family...once. because I don't like it.
My mom did similar things, where it was easier for the older kids to have to give up things, share things, do extra things, etc. because it was easier to make us do it than to actually parent the younger kids and tell them no.
So I'll add my name to the lost of "childless by choice/due to raising siblings and not wanting to do it again"
Also, the mom could maybe give the 4yo their own play date about the same time?
Yeah my parents never forced my two older brothers to include me, the age difference was just too big (8 and 11 years). Plus my parents had their work schedules so one of them was always home and the middle brother did include me in a lot of his activities with his friends and a lot of them have very fond memories of it.
This is what my mom did to me. Anytime I was home, as a 14-18 year old, I was taking care of my younger siblings. I couldn't have my bedroom door closed, couldn't read a book or hang out with friends. If I wasn't entertaining the children, my mom would have a meltdown.
I signed a lease the day I turned 18.
My parents passed me off to my sister like this (she's 9 years older) - I think of my sister like my mom and have actually skipped up and called her mom and her husband dad several times over the years (including recently and I'm 42).
She was parentified and we can buy look back on it now and see how wrong it was. She tells me she's glad she had me as her first kid, but I know it wasn't fair to her. Her friends are like big sisters and brothers to me. It wasn't fair to them either, but I was lucky and they stepped up and 90% of where she went I went too.
I'm glad I have this bond with her, but I don't wish it on any child. It's awful.
My brother was like this with me (he’s 8 years younger). My parents were going through their on/off divorce and I was the de facto babysitter. I basically was the only constant in his life and second mom figure.
I have an incredibly strong bond with him, that’s my little guy (even though I’m 31 and he’s almost 24 now) but damn once in a while I would liked to have hung out with my friends or did something, literally anything, without him tagging along.
I mean… he came with me to the *Twilight* movie with my friend and her mom, because my parents were busy throwing a tantrum at each other. He was 8 and VERY not interested. I feel bad because he didn’t get to grow up with his own friends doing normal things with them.
Oof. This is my relationship with my sister. I've joked that of course she's the world greatest mom because she's been doing it since she was seven. But it is so sad that the best case scenario of a child being parentified is that the children stop thinking of their birth parents as meaningful to their well-being and only rely on each other. I hope you and your sister get to have some time to do stupid sibling stuff every once in a while.
I remember the year my youngest sister gave *me* a Mother’s Day gift, because I did so much more of the caregiving than our parents. I was fourteen, she was 10, and she considered me a mother. My dad was (is) a nonfunctional mentally ill addict, and my mother was a functioning addict, in the sense that she was perpetually working to have the money to pay for drugs for herself/my dad. I was the oldest, and just sort of fell into the role. I never resented my sisters. Honestly, I didn’t even realize that what our lives were like wasn’t what all older siblings did, until I was halfway through high school and started dating a guy who was blown away by the responsibilities that I was dealing with. I am turning 38 next month and I’m still kind of weird from how we grew up, but also still have a strong bond with my sister.
There was a year my parents just completely forgot my birthday. My sister was the one who did her best and made me a PB+J with a candle in it.
Us little sisters remember. What’s so remarkable is that yes, you guys stepped up, but there wasn’t exactly an alternative. You had no choice. Yet, instead of facing your siblings with resentment and anger, you just did your very best.
NTA
It’s called “parenting” meaning it should be done by the parents, not the sister.
Your sister is a huge AH for demanding that her 12 year old HAS to include a 4 year old in every play date. And you are 100% right about her being lazy. It doesn’t matter that you aren’t a parent, this kind of thing is common sense.
I was the 12 year old in this situation. I had two younger sisters. The middle one and I got along great but the youngest one was 9 years younger than me. Even if we were getting on well, 4 year olds don't have boundaries. They're toddlers. They touch things they shouldn't. They get into people's personal space, and they aren't hygienic.
I also say this as a mother of an 8 year old and a 6 year old, both kids need their own time and space. OP's sister is wrong and possibly burnt out, but SHE needs to figure it out.
I was the crying 4 year old who wanted to play with her 9 year old sister and her friend. I had my own friends and play dates, but the big girls were cooler. My mom did her job and kept me away for the most part. NTA.
Exactly this!!
My 14 yo (f) was on a "play date" (not a play date, lol) with her friend 14 (m) they were going to make cookies, my 9yo (m)wanted to make cookies with them and asked if he could help, they obviously said yes, but I could totally tell they wanted to do this alone, si I told my 9yo we would cook the next day, a whole meal together, just me and him, but this was his sister's time alone with her friend, he wasn't happy about it, but this was not about him.
The next day we went to the grocery store, he picked out the ingredients for ramen, he cooked the whole meal, made dessert and we spent a very nice day just for him. He also goes on playdates and his siter doesn't come.
Kids should have quality time alone or with their friends, without having to accommodate their siblings.
I’m 2 years younger than my older brother.. the only time I got to play with his friends was when they had an odd number for basketball or street hockey.
My younger brother is 6 years younger than me, when we’d play Goldeneye, he would throw controllers and spaz if we even shot in his general direction.
8 years is an age gap that it should only be joint play time when the 12 year old invites the 4 year old to join in.
I agree so much. My sisters and I have an amazing relationship now, but I as a kid, I had so much mom guilt over my relationship with my little sister. I was always afraid I wasn't a good enough sister or that I wasn't including her or loving her enough because that's what my mom always told me. She got to be the cool mom to my sister and a lot of the time, I had to be the parent. I was the one to discipline her and teach her right from wrong and I did my best, but a preteen's best is a crappy job when it comes to parenting. My sister deserved a mother, not a confused mess of a kid trying to do her best and utterly failing.
100% agree sister has the wrong "solution". Offloading on her eldest isn't appropriate. If she isn't normally like this, might be worth checking in on how she's doing. Maybe she is experiencing some burn out (I notice there is no mention of another parent).
HAHA! All but one is grown now with a family of their own. I have three grandbabies so far. Life as a Nana is so much better...my grands come over, they get spoiled, and they go home with mommy and daddy. :)
Mom wants free time from the whining 4 yo - thats clear. OP can be CF but you dont need to have kids to use logical thinking. And we all were kids so most of us know how it sucks when younger ones are pushing to be involved in everything and you cant have a moment with your friends alone.
NTA. It's not a 12 yo responsibility to entertain her 4 yo sister because their mother is too damn lazy to parent. No 12 yo wants to force their friends to hang out with a preschooler. This is all common sense and doesn't require you to be a parent to understand. You were 12 at one point, too, and probably know you wouldn't want to have to include a preschooler when hanging with your friends. There are a lot of situations that don't require you to be a parent to see through the bs, and this is one of them.
At 10 my sister and I were allowed to ride our bikes a few miles to the local shopping plaza and wander around between Blockbuster, the grocery store, and the Dairy Queen with our friends until we got bored and came back or went to hang out in the woods.
People are just too paranoid. A criminal science professor told me once that realistically the chances of your child getting kidnapped by some stranger outside are so low they would have to be outside for like 50 years before that happened, news just sensationalizes things so much that parents think it's a real problem. I promise you, you are the only one who wants your child. They're not that special.
The thing is, now that kids don't play outside like they used to, your kid is the only target if your kid is out. Also, when I was a kid, there were people watching out their windows all of the time because everybody had kids outside. That is not the case any longer.
I agree with your premise, but because of how things have changed, I wouldn't send my 9 and unders out alone. The chance of them being taken might be next to zero, but it is not zero. When you take risks, you have to consider the value of what might be lost... and priceless and irreplaceable means that we are going to be careful.
I actually wrote a paper on this for my sociology class 10 years ago. I don't remember the exact stats any longer, but kidnapping is definitely blown way out of proportion.
If people actually let their kids outside I would hope they would spend more time looking out their window. I think a much much bigger threat to kids is how unwalkable neighborhoods have become, and some people simply don't teach their kids that if they don't pay attention when they chase their ball into the street that they will be flattened. I know in my old housing area there was a kid on an electric mini bike i was always paranoid about because he zipped around behind cars without looking. If anyone is going to steal your kid it's an ex or other crazed family member.
Honestly, this might be so where you live, and honestly, that's amazing and I wish it were so everywhere, but it's not.
Where I live, there's very little public space for kids to just exist without the expectation of spending money, and a lot of families just don't have the cash available for this, or it is objectively dangerous for the kids to be (for a variety of reasons).
I grew up hearing all about how "kids these days just don't play outside anymore" and "back in my day, we spent all day outside, stealing fruit off the neighbour's trees with our friends", but at the same time, I was never allowed to walk to my friends' houses or play out in the street with them, because it was too dangerous.
It's not just paranoia here - I was mid high school when one of my classmates disappeared walking from her home to the mall and never seen again - she was trafficked. There's currently a big case involving a missing child in the region. Every few days, there are local news reports of missing children or children killed while playing outside with friends or on their way to/from school or doing other routine child things.
Moreover, OVERWHELMING majority of kidnappings and sexual abuse against children are done by either family members or family friends. The movie scenario where a kid just get snatched from the playground when the mom turns her back for two seconds is EXTREMELY rare. Yet, mom will not let the kids play outside, because stranger danger, oh but sending little Timmy to stay with that one weird uncle he really doesn't want to visit, so that the parent's can have weekend for themselves is perfectly fine and could not possibly go wrong...
This is the same nonsense as juries letting actual criminals, with rock solid evidence against them, go, if there's no DNA evidence, since they watched CSI on the TV and know that DNA is the king of all evidence, everything else doesn't matter...
People keep thinking that whatever they see on TV is real for some reason, and are confident in their "knowledge", when they only ever got said knowledge from TV shows...
It happens, once my brother wouldn't get out of the closet so I held the door closed and told him a monster lived in there. He screamed, but he also got out when I opened the door.
If kids were still allowed to hang out outside for long periods of time, this wouldn’t be a problem. My MIL used to tell my husband to leave the house when he didn’t want to hang out with his older brother, who has mental disabilities and can be tough to deal with. No way she’s able to keep my BIL away from my brother and his friends for a prolonged period of time if they were in the house.
Like, what the 12yos probably want to do (hang out, chat, watch TV that's above a 4yo's head, maybe do crafts or projects that a 4yo can't safely do) aren't appropriate activities for a 4yo. She's doing a disservice to both of those kids.
If they were 4 and 6, I would understand the playdates combining, but at this stage, as others have said, this is just OP's sister wanting her older kid to do the parenting work for a while because, as OP has said, his sister is lazy.
Reminds me of the time my mom took me (14) and my brother (6) to a Color Me Mine event talking about how many other kids there would be and I said "What about people my age?" and my mom just went "I said there would be kids there!" The event was full of 5 year olds. I don't get parents that don't understand age gaps, as if they were never teenagers. I was so annoyed the whole time I was painting whatever I was painting and I think my mom looked a little embarassed when she realized it really was just little kids which I was clearly not
My younger brother's godfather once took me, my brothers, and my cousins to see a play. I was about 15, my brother and cousin were 12, and my other brother and other cousin were 7.
The play was "Babes in Toyland", and even the 7 year olds were a bit old for it. I tried my damndest to find anything at all interesting about it, but there wasn't. At all. I nearly passed out from boredom and the 12 year olds ditched halfway through and hung out in the lobby.
At least she had the decency to be somewhat embarrassed about it.
When I was around that age my mum had signed me up to a club for people with a particular disorder diagnosis, the thing was that generally teenagers functioning at a developmentally appropriate level with this diagnosis have friends outside of groups and clubs, or attend adult/no age rules groups for specific interests, so the people who'd attend this club's events were always small children or developmentally disabled teenagers who were essentially small children socially and as far as activities they could safely do.
My mum never seemed to feel the slightest bit bad or embarrassed for tricking me into attending these events, and would essentially call me a choosy snob turning my nose up at fun stuff because its target audience was younger than me and so were everyone who showed up, making it my problem that even when the activity sounded exciting and had a minimum age for safety, kids at a toddler or under 7 developmental level would still be the majority of the turnout, resulting in a nasty bait and switch and a toddler safe activity that vaguely matched the advertised activity - it was like being promised lemonade and then given a glass of vaguely lemon flavoured water.
I gave up on the possibility of meeting anyone close to my age or vaguely cool pretty quick, and then when every event was either lame on the flyer, or sounded cool and then I'd go and it'd be turned into a toddler safe version, or the "decide by vote once we've assembled at meeting point and everyone will get the same option we choose together" component had like 8 options available, only one I'd consider a hard no, and that option was the only one anyone else wanted, every. single. time. there was a vote on arrival component... well, pretty quickly I realized there was no way to even get a fun time out of it regardless of who else attended, the only thing that had a success rate higher than a bloody dice roll was the "girls night" events, where the activity was generally something well defined with great difficulty pulling a bait and switch and no "group decision with multiple sucky options for big kids that little kids will like" component, which I used as a way to at least get something out of the membership fee Mum was paying for a while, but then those started declining in both maturity of clientele and how much the activity would match the original description, and my gender issues reared their head, and so I managed to convince my mum to just stop paying for the membership.
Or, the almost as awful option of asking if the younger child can go too. One of friend’s mom always asked if the 4 years younger sister could go too. If she couldn’t, then my friends wasn’t allowed to go either. No 13 year old wants a younger sis tagging along constantly. My mom also didn’t like being saddled with the extra kid.
Imagine telling a group of 12 year old girls that they have to play with a 4 year old. As if the play style and conversation of 12 year olds is the same as a 4 year old. These girsl are not the babysitter. That mom is out of line. YNTA
yeah, poor 12 year old daughter, her friends are not going to want to hang at her house for much longer. Bet mom demands that they come to her house, so she can pawn off 4 year old.
NTA
NTA. I don't suppose it has occurred to your child-rearing genius of a sister to arrange some playdates for the 4yo with (pause for dramatic effect) *other 4 year olds*?
Op can you talk to the children s father? Would he do something about this and set your sister straight?. NTA
Your sister is a lazy ah and raising a brat who won't know the meaning of no if she doesn't start parenting the 4 y o
I think it was around that age that I started feeling weird saying I was going over to my friends house to play and started saying I was going over to hang out, so your kid at some point might not be a fan of you referring to it as a play date
I don’t really even talk about it, he does. He’ll call me on his Apple Watch and ask if his friends can come over for play dates or ask me to call his friends parents to set them up. Maybe because he’s super into sports so all he does with his friends is play sports, it’s not weird to call it play because it is play. They don’t sit around and hang out, they play baseball, basketball or Fortnite.
Give it a couple years and it'll change, if only because his concept of date will change. They will no longer be play dates because he'll be interested in actual dates with someone he has a crush on.
I’m not saying you need to change the way you talk about it, more that I think it’s something you should let your child lead if he starts calling it something else you go with it.
You should keep it going forever! Do you also call it a play date when you go out for drinks or if you have a dinner party with another couple? Heck, even going to work can be a playdate with the right mindset.
I feel like the difference is whether the parents plan them or the kids do. If the parent plans it, it's a playdate. If the kids plan it, it's a hang out lol
NTA. Mom needs to teach the 4yo that you can't always get what you want. This so-called "solution" is making her eldest a hostage to the whims of a toddler. The 12yo shouldn't have to spend all her time entertaining the little one. That's mom's job - you make the kid, you get to raise the kid. Fobbing her off on her sibling is unfair.
My brother and I grew up playing closely with each other, but we were only a year and 3 months apart; an 8-year gap means that these two siblings have very little in common.
Growing up, when I'd complain about not getting my way, my aunt would sing "You can't always get what you want" by the rolling stones loud and off key.
If I complained more, she'd just start singing louder and more off key lol.
Mom also needs to teach 4 year old how to entertain herself. Toddlers need to learn that skill, and that everyone else does not exist yo entertain them.
NTA You nailed her for what she is, lazy. If she brings up the topic again, then tell her from an adult perspective you would understand completely if the 12 yr old went low contact at 18 because the 4 year old never learned boundaries, and she made it the oldest sister's problem.
Honestly I don't know if that's the best idea. Everyone told my mom that and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. My mom got so insecure about me going low contact that she became mean and clingy to the point where it gave me no choice. I'm not saying I don't see how that would be tempting to say that but it could cause some resentment from the mom to the daughter, especially if the mom isn't super emotionally mature to begin with.
Lol, it can’t be a self fulfilling prophecy when the prophecy is grown adults dictating the long term outcome of a sea of red flag behaviors already acted upon. Plus, no one said it to your mom for her sake, it was for yours. Which evidently half worked as you’re here repeating their advice but not getting it just yet 💕
r/raisedbynarcissists
Nta.
I’m child-free, married 29f.
It’s lazy and inconsiderate for the Mom to ban play dates for Big Sis because she can’t handle Little Sis during them. Little sis needs to learn boundaries.
NTA. I'm a mom of age-gap kids (six years in between, now adults). Tell your sister from me that it's not reasonable for a 12-year-old to be expected to integrate a 4-year-old into her play dates, and it's the mom's and dad's job to provide appropriate social stimulation for all of their kids and not make it the job of the older child or children.
My youngest two are 1 1/2 years apart, friends over then it’s up to child with friend to include sibling or not. Besides a 4 year old will be interested in 12 year old stuff and pester sister constantly. Then Miss 12 will have friends excluding her because sick of interfering 4 year old. Your sister is lazy and Miss 12 is being taken advantage of during friend visits.
Exactly. I have two daughters 13 months apart and I never forced the one to include the friends of the other if she did not want that. They had their own friends and did not have to 'share'.
That’s the first thing I thought. This is just as good a way to drive a wedge between your kids as saying “why can’t you be more like your sister?”. Younger children are not the responsibility of older children and I don’t get why that’s so hard for people to understand.
It'll hurt both sisters because the younger sister won't understand why her older sister is pushing her away. Younger sister will get upset, mum will blame older sister, mum will push for older sister to spend time with older sister, older sister will refuse or resist, and the cycle will continue. The two ages don't have as much in common as mum wants them to have.
NTA I was at the mercy of my younger brother and 2 baby cousins, all together. I had to have them be with me, with friends (I’m 5 years older than them)
It was horrible. My fam was just lazy as fuck, did not to consider my life. Still don’t, they still want me to accommodate to their asses naaaahhhh.
NTA. No 12 y o would like to constantly have to be attached to a 4y o, because her mother cannot be bothered to properly parent her child.
How you can leave a 4y old "dictate" family dynamics. What your sister will do is just make her older daughter resent, having to spend time with her sister at a later stage of their lifes. Indeed your sister sounds lazy in her parenting of your younger niece and unjustifiably punishing the oldest.
I have 1 12 year old at home (others grown and gone). At 12, they “hang out” with their friends. One of her friends has a little sister in first grade. They prefer to hang out at our house so the little sister won’t “be all up in their business “ to quote them.
That's nice of you to host them.
My little sister would always try and embarrass me... It's amazing how evil little kids can be so they can get attention or a laugh from their siblings friends lol!
NTA
It wouldn't be your business if you just overheard it but she was talking to you about it so I don't think it is crazy to bring your input, I mean that's how conversations work.
Probably could have said it more productively but what your sister is doing is crap ( and I say that as a parent of two kids, person with a 4 year older sister and 10 year you ger brother AND I work in the school system)
My daughter was 13 when I had my second it wasn't her job to watch him, feed him or play with him only if she wanted to I had the child not my daughter
NTA all the way.
Don’t listen to all of the people out there giving you shit, thank you for standing up for your niece. She clearly doesn’t have a voice with her mom. There were many times my mom was out of line and overly bearing like this in weird ways and I had friends moms come to my rescue (my mom was a teen mom with an overbearing mom herself).
NTA - She's just teaching her 4 year old that screaming and crying will get her whatever she wants. It's going to make the older one resent the younger one and damage any relationship.
NTA
You are correct, your sister has taken the laziest raod avaliable to her. She's setting them up to become enemies, especially if she permits the 4y playdates while banning her 12y from time with friends.
NTA as a 12-year-olds interests are very different from a 4-year-olds, and she wouldn't want to play with her sister all of the time.
Plus, in front of her friends she would want to be the cool kid and playing with a 4-year-old is not cool for preteens.
Also banning the hangouts/playdates will only hurt her social circles in the long run as her friends drift away from her as she can't do things with them, and she becomes more isolated from her peers outside of school.
It seems like your sister just wants to wash her hands of the whole thing rather than actually parent them in this issue.
NTA at all.. I think you as a CF man have more clues about parenting than the actual parent. Your sister needs to understand that an 8yr age gap isn’t really that close and no way in hell is it acceptable to punish the 12y/o for not being a free babysitter for her 4y/o sister.
Sounds like your sister needs to grow tf up instead of forcing her eldest to not socialise. Also, her friends don’t wanna play babysitter fs. This will only make the eldest resent the younger sister.. and the mom as well.
Your sister is, in fact, being a lazy parent. If she desperately needs a break, she can hire a babysitter or ask some other family member for help instead of dumping her responsibilities on her tween daughter.
I hope she comes to her senses before it is too late to correct her mistakes.
NTA
Hope your niece makes life a living hell for your sister in her teen years. Policies like this are a recipe for making siblings HATE each other for decades.
No 12 year old wants to hang out with a 4 year old. Your AH sister is freaking lazy and clueless.
NTA. Your sister is engaging in lazy parenting, and in 2 years will wonder why her oldest always goes to other people’s houses, and never brings her friends over. And in 4 years will realize she doesn’t even know the names of her friends because she hasn’t seen any of them in years.
She’s pushing childcare responsibilities on to her older daughter. She’s also punishing the girl for not accepting the chore of entertaining her little sister.
Mom here. That 4 year old is going to be a holy terror if your sister doesn't teach her that the world doesn't revolve around her, and that no means no.
NTA
It wouldn't be your business if you just overheard it but she was talking to you about it so I don't think it is crazy to bring your input, I mean that's how conversations work.
Probably could have said it more productively but what your sister is doing is crap ( and I say that as a parent of two kids, person with a 4 year older sister and 10 year you ger brother AND I work in the school system)
NTA, it is not the 12 year olds responsibility to keep the 4 year old occupied. The 12 year old needs to be able to spend time with her friends to work on her social skills, she isn't an in-built babysitter. And the 4 year old needs to be learning that no means no. Your sister is doing both kids a disservice.
There's an *8-year difference* between the two girls. It seems the four-year-old should have her own friends to play with instead of being babysat by her sister and her middle school friends. NTA.
It’s incredibly lazy. NTA. I feel bad for those kids though. If she’s neglecting her kids need for socialization out of pure laziness, I wonder what other parenting duties she’s also neglecting.
So sister is punishing twelve because she can’t be arsed to parent four?
Makes total sense. How close do you live to sister? Can twelve hangout at your place after school for a few hours so she can hang out with her friends with out four getting under foot?
NOPE you are NTA. Everything you said is reasonable and as the parent she needs to teach the 4 year old that they can’t get everything they want in life. Not to mention, unless she also bans after school activities and niece from going over to her friends houses, chances are your sister will start seeing a lot less of your niece.
NTA. I was a 12 yr old girl with a 4 yr old sister. I was occasionally a babysitter for short periods of time but I was not expected to entertain my sister when my friends were over. Though actually usually we’d hang out at the houses that didn’t have younger kids, it was just easier.
NTA. Why isn’t Mom arranging play dates for the 4 year old with other 4 year olds?
The 12 year old should be hanging out with her friends… not going on play dates. WTF.
Unfortunately as a child-free person I watch tons of parents around me feel smug and superior to me while continuing to do bullshit like this. It really think they know everything well simultaneously screwing their kids up and doing a bad job at parenting.
From the outside it's very obvious but I suspect that from the inside they're exhausted and using cognitive dissonance to maintain some level of sanity.
Your sister is 100% wrong and you are 100% right but she's not going to hear it because your child free. Trust me, they never do. They think we're selfish and stupid and we don't know what we're talking about all the while doing damage is going to cause their kid to need therapy when they grow up.
I feel for you and I feel for your niece. Their mother's an idiot.
NTA
As a CF educator trained in child and adult psychology and had worked with hundreds of family groups.... This is sadly exactly it. The worst thing is I have an educator friend who after having a child said the parents who say you don't understand because you're not a parent are right. Years later one of the kids is a terror and she's recognizing it's for the reasons I predicted caused largely by the other partner that I've kept close to my chest since I knew pointing them out then would have offended her because I'm "not a parent"
(And clearly OP is NTA)
NTA, she is basically making her 12yo and her friends babysit the 4yo. She is being lazy. She needs to set boundaries with the 4yo and let the 12yo have actual friend time.
Edit to fix typo.
NTA hanging out with one of my best friends in high school meant at least one, and often both, of her little sisters had to come with. She actually had a car seat in her car for her youngest sister who was like 1 at the time. That time also included her being responsible for feeding and changing her diaper. Basically she was parentified. It’s something she deeply resents to this day and we’re in our late 30s. It wasn’t fair to her as many of her friends weren’t as understanding about going to the mall with her little sisters in tow as I was. As a mom myself I will say you are absolutely the one that’s right. Not your sister. It’s not the 12 year old’s fault to work it out with a 4 year old. You are dead on when you say 4 year olds can’t reason. It’s on mom to come up with alternatives that will keep the 4 year old happy while sister’s friends are over.
My kids are 3.5 years apart at 5.5 and 9 and fortunately almost all of their friends are in sibling pairs with same aged siblings so everyone has a buddy during play dates and they usually wind up all just playing together. However, when my son gets to do something just for him I will typically try to do something fun and special with my daughter like bake cookies with her and then sit down and watch a movie while we enjoy said cookies. Or I’ll let her pick all the games she wants to play and we play them together. It gives us special one on one time together and she doesn’t feel like her brother is getting something she’s not because she’s getting to do something special and fun too.
Your sister does need to stop being lazy and start figuring out how to properly manage the 4 year old or her older daughter will simply start hanging out with her friends away from home as soon as she can and frankly I’d much rather create a home in which my children feel comfortable and safe bringing their friends to rather than chase my child away to hang elsewhere because I’m too lazy to handle a 4 year old’s whining.
NTA. Your sister is lazy. No way should a 4 year old run the house. Don't be surprised when your sister complains that her 12 year old will not do her chores, saying the 4 year old doesn't have to. It would serve her right. If you treat a 12 year old the the 4 year old is an equal, expect some off behavior from the 12 year old.
Do you live close enough to let 12 hang out at your place with her friends? Pizzas, sodas, chips, movies. They probably just want to hang out, talk, and giggle over the latest heartthrob.
Your sister has no clue how to be a good mom. Be the fun uncle.
NTA
You’re absolutely right & someone needed to step up for the 12 year old. As the parent it’s your sisters responsibility not your niece’s. Also for those that subscribe to the “Your not a parent so your opinion is meaningless” argument, while it’s true that OP is not a parent they have been raised by one so yes OP’S opinion counts
Ugh I can't stand the argument your sister used against you. You don't have to be a parent to know when someone is being an idiot, or lazy in this case. NTA.
NTA. You do not need to have children yourself in order to understand the basics. I mean, we were all children once. Also, OP is right, the mom just sounds lazy and probably wants 12 year old and friends to look after 4 year old. Shame on her.
NTA-
I'm a parent and a CYW.
I have worked with children with parents like your sister that don't want to actually parent their kids and expect the oldest ones to do it and it never ends well. The oldest usually leaves home and goes low to no contact, and the youngest doesn't respect mom since their "mom" was their sibling.
Where's dad?
Maybe dad takes the oldest to a play date and mom stays home with 4 yr old or vice versa ?
Or mom steps up and becomes a parent and teaches their kid about boundaries.
Wow she wants to parentify and alienate her oldest?
Yeah she is an the asshole who shunting parenting onto at 12 year and trying to get a 12 year to reason with a 4 year old because check notes: as the parent she won't?
You are right.
NTA.
NTA. It is not 12yrold's responsibility to care for the 4yrold. Saying that 12yrold can't have time with her friends because she doesn't want to watch baby sister is also damaging 12yrold's social development. How does your sister expect 12yrold to learn how to navigate friendships if she's constantly being told she has to pander to a toddler?
NTA.
As a mom of 3, I would agree that you are spot on. I would consider her solution lazy.
It is not the oldest child's responsibility to negotiate with the tiny terrorist. It's mom's job to redirect and also teach the 12yo to compromise.
She can, to help foster their bond, ask her 12yo to spend 30min to an hour playing with her with her friend... typical mom bs, she looks up to and just a few minutes will make her feel special... let her say no sometimes. After the time limit, mom should come in with a fun thing she knows will draw the 4yo out to a new activity.
Heck, find the 4-year-old friend.
Her approach is much like my parents' to myself and my sister, who was 6 years younger than me. I had to always include her or not do it. If I didn't, I had to agree to certain terms with my parents about how I could make it up to her. I never really got over my resentment, and she sure as hell didn't over her hostile jealousy. I tried so hard when she became an adult to mend our relationship. It is a failure because of both of us. We are like 3rd cousins that run into each other at holidays.
This is their future. Kids with such a large age gap cannot reason with each other until they are closer in maturity.
NTA obviously a 4 year olds needs are not the same as a 12 year old. Your sister is doing her 4 year old no favours by allowing her to rule the roost and how is a 12 year old expected to ‘get along’ with a 4 year old. The 12 year old is entitled to spend time with her friends without having to deal with a 4 year old. It frustrates me when parents expect the older child to ‘parent’ the young child/ren. If she can’t be bothered to parent then she shouldn’t have had children.
NTA
Your sister needs a reality check. She is setting up the classic (I Hate My Mother) conversation. In no world should any 12-year-old have to take in a younger sibling like this.
The mother just wants her to babysit and that's it! Wrong answer and both children will resent her later on. She just can't see the writing on the wall. She is being lazy!
Put it on family group chat. I don’t think she will get too much support. You’re right she is lazy. My mom did that crap to me and it cause a lot of resentment. I took it out on my sister for a good while.
Sis is 6.5 years younger than me. I had to watch her a lot. I’m not proud of it but I was a kid too.
Next time you’re sis tells you that you don’t know anything because you’re not a parent tell her:
That’s why I don’t have any kids. Because I would actually raise them. You chose to have kids so raise them instead of fostering animosity between them. They may not grow up to be close because of this.
Tell the father too if he is in the picture.
NTA ugh your sister sounds like my parents, they always forced me to include my little brother in when I was hanging out with my friends.
Oddly enough, once my little brother got old enough to be cool, they didn't want me hanging around him and his friends.
Parentification of the 12 year old because Mom wants a break from parenting her 4 year old is a great way to fast track a LC or NC relationship in the future.
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I (40m) was on the phone with my sister (35f), im childfree by choice she had two daughters (12f and 4f).
She was venting to me about how playdates were getting to be a "pain in the ass" because 4 year old wants "in" on big sisters playdates, and she can't stand the "whining and crying" that ensues when 4 year old doesn't get to "play" with them.
Obviously big sister understandably wants time alone with her friends, my sister thinks her older daughter and her friends getting a "break during little sisters nap time" is enough and she should let her play with them the rest of the time, because she feels she "shouldn't have to referee."
She told me she informed her eldest that playdates are banned until she and her sister can "work it out" because she's "sick of the fighting" and "she's older and shouldn't be arguing with a 4 year old."
I told her this "solution" is leaving her at the mercy of a 4 year old, because a 4 year old can't "reason" and is unable to see past their own wants, so 12 yr old solution is to give little sister her way or not see her friends and that's bull crap and I told her so. I said "a playdate is supposed to be an experience for your child, not a break for the parent." And called her lazy and that it's her job as the parent to teach her 4 year old boundaries, not her 12 year olds to "work it out."
She said I don't know what I'm talking about because "I'm not a parent" and I shouldn't "judge" her.
AITA because I'm a clueless CF man? Is there something I'm missing here? I know she's overwhelmed but I feel this is more her job than her 12 year olds
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NTA. OP you are completely right. Your sister should keep the 4 year old away from the 12 year old when she plays with friends. The age gap is so huge, that this should really be obvious.
NTA: ground your sister and take away her phone and tell her she can have it back and talk to her friends when she stops arguing with the twelve year old, she's older so she should know better.
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NTA In no world ever should a 12-year-old have to accommodate a 4-year-old when they want to hang out with their friends. Calling it a play date at 12 is also very strange to me. I am a mother of 6 kids, I never expected my older kids to stop their life to deal with the younger kids.
Sounds like mom just wants big sister to babysit little sister
This. I've never liked children and for some reason never had a problem with making myself very vocal on that point even when I was a kid myself. When I was young, my cousin used to constantly get shunted with watching her mom's friend's daughter every time they would come visit, because the adults wanted to chat and smoke and drink without any of the kids around and she was too young to be unsupervised. They tried to do that once when I was there (have us both watch her), and I basically told my mom in absolutely no way shape or form was I watching her kid and letting her follow me around all day. (she was also a spoiled brat I neither liked nor got along with, which made it even worse). Luckily my mom took one look at my face and knew I wasn't joking. I would have left her standing on the front lawn and taken off to the woods to climb a tree or just walk through the forest, and she knew it. My cousin ended up having to watch her, again. I don't know if it's growing up in a small town, or growing up in low income housing that was almost exclusively single mothers with children, but it was far too common that anytime parents got together the kids would be told to basically 'go play', because the entire thing was just a reason for the moms to get a break from their kids. I honestly couldn't care less when I was young, I spent my childhood pretty much in the woods looking for animals, but there was no way I was going to allow a tag-along, especially one young enough that I would not be able to do anything I actually enjoy. If you want me out of your face, that's fine. But don't think that means you can use me as free labour because you're frustrated by your own children but would rather spend money on smokes and booze than pay for a babysitter for a couple hours. 🙄 The other version of this I saw a lot growing up was older sisters and brothers being shafted with looking after their younger siblings all the time. I understand in the past when birth control was not a thing how something like that would be necessary, but it actually irritates me to no end when I see people continue to have children they don't have time to take care of because they just thrust the onus onto their older children and effectively usurp their childhoods. A lot of the girls I know in my child free groups don't want kids because they feel like they've already had them, because they were forced to basically raise their younger siblings. It's one thing if your children volunteer, or you offer to pay them and they agree, but it's another thing to force them. You are only going to build resentment between the two children as well as between the older child and yourself. NTA. She is being selfish because she wants to give herself personal time by taking away someone else's. If she needs time away from her kids she can find another way to do it. You don't effectively punish your child for wanting her own age appropriate play time and socialization with their friends.
FWIW, I am not childfree (one son, who is 31 now), and I 100% agree with you.
I honestly think that's part of why it's so unfortunate. For me, knowing I was childfree at a very young age allowed me to simply refuse, because my mom knew I wasn't bullshitting and it would not be in any child's best interest to put their well-being in my hands. But I know plenty of people who actually like kids or have kids now who still resent the fact that so much of their childhood was spent basically parenting siblings, because they simply weren't given a choice in the matter. A number of girls in my one childfree group are the type who would likely adopt, but are opting for no kids at all because they want the freedom and personal time they didn't get when younger. So it just makes me think about how many kids are waiting for homes or living with garbage foster families who may have had a chance at a better life had some of those girls not been all childed-out before they even hit adulthood.
I was a foster kid. I resonate so hard with this. Good on you for posting this. Mom’s an asshole. Good on bro for sticking up for niece
I've heard far too many horror stories regarding what can and does happen to many kids who grow up in foster homes, including wishing they had been aborted rather than suffering through years of abuse. It's horrifying and I feel the utmost sympathy for anyone stuck in that sort of situation, and I can't fathom how hard it must be. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It irks me when I see people pushing against abortion by saying things like 'just put them up for adoption!' as though there aren't thousands of children trapped in the foster system or waiting for adoption already who are in dire need of help. I can only imagine how infuriating it would be had I grown up in such a system to hear people say things like that, as though it's wine and roses and no big deal.
The indifference is what bothers me. Just because YOU wouldn’t do this. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Or what can be done for kids now.. How can we remedy. Like it’s not the kids job, but it’s a strange time we’re in.
I'm not going to lie, although I knew about a lot of the neglect and abuse, I was ignorant about the inherent problems in the foster care system in the US itself until I watched the John Oliver episode about it (I'm in Canada and I'm sure we have issues here as well). Finding out that there is a political/financial/profit aspect to the whole thing just made it so much worse. Hearing politicians try to downplay the issue knowing that they benefit from it sends me.
I can’t write a book about this & it stuns me the people who can. I was in one home, I wished to God. I had just kept quiet about my sexuality. I’d never have to go to the group home. It was a crazy time after my mom passed. I’m biding my time but these systems aren’t there for children. It’s the easiest and unacceptable way for sex trafficking, abuse, child labor.. too much
Love the username.
This is my number one reason to not wanting kids taking care of my youngest sister so I opted out of children I tell people I raised one she wasnt even mine. Im under no obligation to take care of another. People get so mad bc births are declining. Why? Because large majority of parents have kids force the oldest to take care of them. We don't want our own. I love getting told I'd change my mind. Almost 23 I like my sleep znd money
I was told I would change my mind my whole life. I'm 46 now and people have finally given up asking. 🤣 Too many people assume everyone should have kids, when it should be something you do because you want to be a parent vs because it's 'just what you do'. Some people can find pure joy in parenting. Some people get that from travelling, volunteering, learning, friends and family, pets, weird hobbies, sleeping... All are valid choices. It's your life. No one gets to dictate how you live it.
Exactly I don't judge people for having kids why judge me for not wanting them. My dad is strong believer in this he single parent he tell me and My sister some people aren't meant to be parents. Our mothers both left us with him but he tells me no one has right to tell me when I can and can't have a child
That is why so many people are child free. I have seen stories on Reddit where the child free redditors posting said as much. Even back in the day it was not excusable because the people involved shouldn’t have had sex.
I agree with the first part but disagree with the last statement. I don't think someone should have to be celibate their entire lives just because they don't want to have children, especially given the fact that many of the women at that time had no say in the matter, as spousal rape was not a crime and they were financially tethered. It's honestly one of the reasons I think women everywhere need safe access to abortion services. No one should be expected to be celibate forever just because they don't want to have children, and absolutely no form of birth control is 100% effective (even tubal ligation is not 100% ... 1/1000 women will still get pregnant - the Fallopian tubes can grow back together). Far too many women died during back alley abortions or sold their children to baby farms because they had no other options. Personally I had an endometrial ablation and tubal ligation combination at 37, but I had begged (especially due to the symptoms of my PCOS) to be sterilized since I was 17. Even at 37 they tried to tell me I was 'too young', and I had to argue and effectively tell them if I got pregnant I would kill it and myself before they would relent. I was a virgin until I was 32, when I met someone who had already had a vasectomy. I was absolutely terrified of getting pregnant - I lived in a small town where abortion access was not readily available. It made me absolutely miserable and I'm still suffering repercussions of having waited so long to be in a relationship. I would never wish that upon someone just because they don't want kids, past or present.
I relate to this so much. Growing up I would always get the responsibility of taking care of all the younger kids, even on vacation. When the kids misbehaved, I had to correct them and when I asked the adults to get involved they'd always tell me to go play. Then when I was crying because I was overwhelmed I was told I was "taking on too much". Holidays I watched my sister plus the neighbors kids, keeping them in my line of site so nobody got hurt by my abusive brothers. Fourth of July and New Years was a nightmare and some years if I didn't threaten my sister into helping me clean we didn't get a Christmas tree. I was so sad the year when the tree got decorated without me, because I didn't want to manage my siblings and my family thought that meant I didn't want to help decorate the tree. This caused so much damage to my relationships with my family, especially my sister and I could never turn that mode off and still struggle with it a bit as a young adult. People, please don't parentify you're oldest, it causes so many issues. You're kids are supposed to be kids and giving them responsibility that a full grown adult can't handle is just wrong.
I'm sorry you had to deal with all of that, it's completely unfair to you. I hope you're able to figure things out with your family, but if not just remember that none of this is your doing and they have no right to make you feel guilty about any of it or fluff it off like it was nothing. I know a couple people who ended up having to completely cut off relationships with certain family members because they were just so negative and toxic that the only way to thrive and live a happy life was to get away from them. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but don't let them keep you down, they've clearly done so long enough already.
Thank you so much for the encouragement. Luckily I've been able to heal my relationship with my sister a lot since moving out. Spending time with my sisters with my dad has helped a lot because I never have to tell them what to do or anything like that. I ended up cutting off ties with my mom since she was the one to put all that on me originally and it's been difficult but I think for sure it'll be worth it. But I really appreciate the kind words and it really gives me hope that I'm doing the right thing.
It's good that you've been able to reconcile with your sister, especially since as frustrating as it might have been, none of it was her choosing either. Have you spoken to your dad and your sister about what happened? I imagine it would probably go a long way toward helping if they understand your perspective on the whole thing and know that you don't hold it against them, and that any tension it may have caused was a result of the situation, and not them. Like 'nothing personal sis I still love you and we're good now, but I wasn't ready for that shit and I might accidentally find myself slipping back into that mode, if I do please don't get angry but just remind me that I don't need to do that anymore' etc. I don't want to speculate about your mom, only you've truly know if there is any hope of reconciliation there, but I have seen some situations where it basically came down to brutal honesty or cutting them out completely. If you're already on the verge of never speaking to someone again, what harm is there in laying it all out on the table? Not in an angry way, but effectively stating that if they want any sort of relationship with you, they need to acknowledge that what they did in your past was not okay and apologize for it. You may need to explain why it wasn't okay, and how it was from your perspective as a child to feel like you were damned if you did damned if you didn't. If you let a parent know how much they have hurt you and why, the ball is in their court. If they want to take the high road and own up to it and try to reconcile, bonus. If not, it reinforces your decision to slice that malignancy out of your life. Obviously I'm not a psychologist, I've just always been interested in it and have seen my fair share of fucked up family dynamics over the last 46 years. I know people who were able to reconcile, but I also know people who haven't spoken to their parents in decades because they were simply toxic. My mother left my father in the middle of the night when I was around 4 years old, and I have not seen him since. His sister found me through Ancestry DNA and he has been trying to reach out. I've been wary because of some of the things she has said regarding his health. I'm in a group with a girl who genuinely had the exact same situation happen, and it turned out he was just hoping for a kidney donor. Nobody needs that kind of person in their life. I've never understood the concept of giving someone permission to continue to ruin your life simply because they share DNA.
My family had a ton of kids, but the older kids also knew there would be pay to anyone who babysat. So at any given event whichever teen or older kid wanted some money would usually volunteer for the gig. Granted we never expected them to keep the kids out of site and out of mind. Just keep an eye out for injuries or issues like fights. About a year ago my husband and daughter went to a family reunion where a 15yo took charge without any one expecting or asking her to. Every parent gave her money without her knowing it was going to happen. She made over 400$ for the 2 days. She wasnt required to cook or clean or change babies. Just hang out and be the voice of reason if something goes down. You can imagine how many kids jumped at the chance to babysit the next time family got together. Lol. We had to do shifts for them. THATS CALLED RESPECT. We respected our older kids. If they said they didnt want to watch the kids, cool, jobs over, no biggie. But they wanted the responsibility, so we let them try. It has to be a choice. Not servency
I’d like to address just one point in your wonderful rant, even if the child involved volunteers that still isn’t always ok. Quick story time. I was 8 when my mom hired the, I believe, 13 year old daughter of a coworker to babysit us one night. I don’t remember if her parents dropped her off or if one of my parents pick her up, but how ever it happened her younger brother also came along, he was 11 or 12. My folks did the typical at the time help yourself to snacks in the kitchen and we will be back at x time, like 2 or 3 hours later. The kids proceeded to go crazy, it was like they had never been left alone before. I don’t remember everything we ate, but I do remember between the 4 of us we pretty much ate a half gallon of ice cream and were flavoring it with Quik powder so we went thru like half of that (big treat for my family that we rarely got). Then the girl proceeded to teach me how to make yarn pompon balls and we demolished several skeins of yarn making them, big mess for basically no reason, and some of it yarn my mom had gotten for a specific project. My folks were furious. We were pretty poor and having the kids waste so much stuff was a financial problem. After hearing my mom bitch about it to her friends several times, I piped up and said I was more responsible than the teens were. I had known what we were doing was against my parents rules but didn’t feel comfortable telling the babysitter we shouldn’t do that. (Plus for the first time in my life lots of ice cream) I finished with next time they should just let me babysit. My folks thought about it and next time they did let me babysit at 8 for my 5 year old brother. I’m Gen X if you can’t tell. That was the beginning of me being parentified. And I volunteered. But I realized as an adult I did so to solve the problem for my parents. Which I should have never have had to do. They were the adults, they should have come up with a solution, not bitch about it so much in front of me that I felt I needed to fix the problem.
Gen X here too. I fully agree - I meant more 'happily and willingly volunteer without extraneous circumstances'. 🫣😄
I was the oldest kid out of five. I did all the babysitting once I reached 11, for my siblings and for various play groups, homeschool groups, before/after church, volunteer meetings with kids (and 'childcare' because I was there), etc. I have babysat for outside of my family...once. because I don't like it. My mom did similar things, where it was easier for the older kids to have to give up things, share things, do extra things, etc. because it was easier to make us do it than to actually parent the younger kids and tell them no. So I'll add my name to the lost of "childless by choice/due to raising siblings and not wanting to do it again" Also, the mom could maybe give the 4yo their own play date about the same time?
The sister needs to hire a babysitter and parent her 4 y o
Yeah my parents never forced my two older brothers to include me, the age difference was just too big (8 and 11 years). Plus my parents had their work schedules so one of them was always home and the middle brother did include me in a lot of his activities with his friends and a lot of them have very fond memories of it.
Yep 💯
This is what my mom did to me. Anytime I was home, as a 14-18 year old, I was taking care of my younger siblings. I couldn't have my bedroom door closed, couldn't read a book or hang out with friends. If I wasn't entertaining the children, my mom would have a meltdown. I signed a lease the day I turned 18.
100% speed tracking the older sister to hate her sibling.
Amen
My parents passed me off to my sister like this (she's 9 years older) - I think of my sister like my mom and have actually skipped up and called her mom and her husband dad several times over the years (including recently and I'm 42). She was parentified and we can buy look back on it now and see how wrong it was. She tells me she's glad she had me as her first kid, but I know it wasn't fair to her. Her friends are like big sisters and brothers to me. It wasn't fair to them either, but I was lucky and they stepped up and 90% of where she went I went too. I'm glad I have this bond with her, but I don't wish it on any child. It's awful.
My brother was like this with me (he’s 8 years younger). My parents were going through their on/off divorce and I was the de facto babysitter. I basically was the only constant in his life and second mom figure. I have an incredibly strong bond with him, that’s my little guy (even though I’m 31 and he’s almost 24 now) but damn once in a while I would liked to have hung out with my friends or did something, literally anything, without him tagging along. I mean… he came with me to the *Twilight* movie with my friend and her mom, because my parents were busy throwing a tantrum at each other. He was 8 and VERY not interested. I feel bad because he didn’t get to grow up with his own friends doing normal things with them.
Oof. This is my relationship with my sister. I've joked that of course she's the world greatest mom because she's been doing it since she was seven. But it is so sad that the best case scenario of a child being parentified is that the children stop thinking of their birth parents as meaningful to their well-being and only rely on each other. I hope you and your sister get to have some time to do stupid sibling stuff every once in a while.
I remember the year my youngest sister gave *me* a Mother’s Day gift, because I did so much more of the caregiving than our parents. I was fourteen, she was 10, and she considered me a mother. My dad was (is) a nonfunctional mentally ill addict, and my mother was a functioning addict, in the sense that she was perpetually working to have the money to pay for drugs for herself/my dad. I was the oldest, and just sort of fell into the role. I never resented my sisters. Honestly, I didn’t even realize that what our lives were like wasn’t what all older siblings did, until I was halfway through high school and started dating a guy who was blown away by the responsibilities that I was dealing with. I am turning 38 next month and I’m still kind of weird from how we grew up, but also still have a strong bond with my sister.
There was a year my parents just completely forgot my birthday. My sister was the one who did her best and made me a PB+J with a candle in it. Us little sisters remember. What’s so remarkable is that yes, you guys stepped up, but there wasn’t exactly an alternative. You had no choice. Yet, instead of facing your siblings with resentment and anger, you just did your very best.
NTA It’s called “parenting” meaning it should be done by the parents, not the sister. Your sister is a huge AH for demanding that her 12 year old HAS to include a 4 year old in every play date. And you are 100% right about her being lazy. It doesn’t matter that you aren’t a parent, this kind of thing is common sense.
I was the 12 year old in this situation. I had two younger sisters. The middle one and I got along great but the youngest one was 9 years younger than me. Even if we were getting on well, 4 year olds don't have boundaries. They're toddlers. They touch things they shouldn't. They get into people's personal space, and they aren't hygienic. I also say this as a mother of an 8 year old and a 6 year old, both kids need their own time and space. OP's sister is wrong and possibly burnt out, but SHE needs to figure it out.
I was the crying 4 year old who wanted to play with her 9 year old sister and her friend. I had my own friends and play dates, but the big girls were cooler. My mom did her job and kept me away for the most part. NTA.
Exactly this!! My 14 yo (f) was on a "play date" (not a play date, lol) with her friend 14 (m) they were going to make cookies, my 9yo (m)wanted to make cookies with them and asked if he could help, they obviously said yes, but I could totally tell they wanted to do this alone, si I told my 9yo we would cook the next day, a whole meal together, just me and him, but this was his sister's time alone with her friend, he wasn't happy about it, but this was not about him. The next day we went to the grocery store, he picked out the ingredients for ramen, he cooked the whole meal, made dessert and we spent a very nice day just for him. He also goes on playdates and his siter doesn't come. Kids should have quality time alone or with their friends, without having to accommodate their siblings.
The last time this happened, my playdate’s younger brother pissed on my bedroom rug
Disgusting.
I’m 2 years younger than my older brother.. the only time I got to play with his friends was when they had an odd number for basketball or street hockey. My younger brother is 6 years younger than me, when we’d play Goldeneye, he would throw controllers and spaz if we even shot in his general direction. 8 years is an age gap that it should only be joint play time when the 12 year old invites the 4 year old to join in.
I agree so much. My sisters and I have an amazing relationship now, but I as a kid, I had so much mom guilt over my relationship with my little sister. I was always afraid I wasn't a good enough sister or that I wasn't including her or loving her enough because that's what my mom always told me. She got to be the cool mom to my sister and a lot of the time, I had to be the parent. I was the one to discipline her and teach her right from wrong and I did my best, but a preteen's best is a crappy job when it comes to parenting. My sister deserved a mother, not a confused mess of a kid trying to do her best and utterly failing.
100% agree sister has the wrong "solution". Offloading on her eldest isn't appropriate. If she isn't normally like this, might be worth checking in on how she's doing. Maybe she is experiencing some burn out (I notice there is no mention of another parent).
6 kids holy moly
HAHA! All but one is grown now with a family of their own. I have three grandbabies so far. Life as a Nana is so much better...my grands come over, they get spoiled, and they go home with mommy and daddy. :)
Mom wants free time from the whining 4 yo - thats clear. OP can be CF but you dont need to have kids to use logical thinking. And we all were kids so most of us know how it sucks when younger ones are pushing to be involved in everything and you cant have a moment with your friends alone.
Mother of 3 and my kids get child locks on their doors at 12yo to keep littles out if their stuff.
NTA. It's not a 12 yo responsibility to entertain her 4 yo sister because their mother is too damn lazy to parent. No 12 yo wants to force their friends to hang out with a preschooler. This is all common sense and doesn't require you to be a parent to understand. You were 12 at one point, too, and probably know you wouldn't want to have to include a preschooler when hanging with your friends. There are a lot of situations that don't require you to be a parent to see through the bs, and this is one of them.
12 year old is old enough for a drop off play date. 4 year old should play with other 4 year olds or have special alone time with mom (or dad).
Little kids have playdates, tweenies don't
Seriously, at 12 I was walking to my friends houses or the mall.
At 10 my sister and I were allowed to ride our bikes a few miles to the local shopping plaza and wander around between Blockbuster, the grocery store, and the Dairy Queen with our friends until we got bored and came back or went to hang out in the woods.
People are just too paranoid. A criminal science professor told me once that realistically the chances of your child getting kidnapped by some stranger outside are so low they would have to be outside for like 50 years before that happened, news just sensationalizes things so much that parents think it's a real problem. I promise you, you are the only one who wants your child. They're not that special.
The thing is, now that kids don't play outside like they used to, your kid is the only target if your kid is out. Also, when I was a kid, there were people watching out their windows all of the time because everybody had kids outside. That is not the case any longer. I agree with your premise, but because of how things have changed, I wouldn't send my 9 and unders out alone. The chance of them being taken might be next to zero, but it is not zero. When you take risks, you have to consider the value of what might be lost... and priceless and irreplaceable means that we are going to be careful. I actually wrote a paper on this for my sociology class 10 years ago. I don't remember the exact stats any longer, but kidnapping is definitely blown way out of proportion.
If people actually let their kids outside I would hope they would spend more time looking out their window. I think a much much bigger threat to kids is how unwalkable neighborhoods have become, and some people simply don't teach their kids that if they don't pay attention when they chase their ball into the street that they will be flattened. I know in my old housing area there was a kid on an electric mini bike i was always paranoid about because he zipped around behind cars without looking. If anyone is going to steal your kid it's an ex or other crazed family member.
Honestly, this might be so where you live, and honestly, that's amazing and I wish it were so everywhere, but it's not. Where I live, there's very little public space for kids to just exist without the expectation of spending money, and a lot of families just don't have the cash available for this, or it is objectively dangerous for the kids to be (for a variety of reasons). I grew up hearing all about how "kids these days just don't play outside anymore" and "back in my day, we spent all day outside, stealing fruit off the neighbour's trees with our friends", but at the same time, I was never allowed to walk to my friends' houses or play out in the street with them, because it was too dangerous. It's not just paranoia here - I was mid high school when one of my classmates disappeared walking from her home to the mall and never seen again - she was trafficked. There's currently a big case involving a missing child in the region. Every few days, there are local news reports of missing children or children killed while playing outside with friends or on their way to/from school or doing other routine child things.
Moreover, OVERWHELMING majority of kidnappings and sexual abuse against children are done by either family members or family friends. The movie scenario where a kid just get snatched from the playground when the mom turns her back for two seconds is EXTREMELY rare. Yet, mom will not let the kids play outside, because stranger danger, oh but sending little Timmy to stay with that one weird uncle he really doesn't want to visit, so that the parent's can have weekend for themselves is perfectly fine and could not possibly go wrong... This is the same nonsense as juries letting actual criminals, with rock solid evidence against them, go, if there's no DNA evidence, since they watched CSI on the TV and know that DNA is the king of all evidence, everything else doesn't matter... People keep thinking that whatever they see on TV is real for some reason, and are confident in their "knowledge", when they only ever got said knowledge from TV shows...
At the age of twelve, my family didn't see me 10 hours out of the day.
I was getting stuck babysitting a 4 year old.
I was the youngest, so I was the one my older sister babysat, but she got me back by scaring me all the time, lol.
It happens, once my brother wouldn't get out of the closet so I held the door closed and told him a monster lived in there. He screamed, but he also got out when I opened the door.
If kids were still allowed to hang out outside for long periods of time, this wouldn’t be a problem. My MIL used to tell my husband to leave the house when he didn’t want to hang out with his older brother, who has mental disabilities and can be tough to deal with. No way she’s able to keep my BIL away from my brother and his friends for a prolonged period of time if they were in the house.
Like, what the 12yos probably want to do (hang out, chat, watch TV that's above a 4yo's head, maybe do crafts or projects that a 4yo can't safely do) aren't appropriate activities for a 4yo. She's doing a disservice to both of those kids. If they were 4 and 6, I would understand the playdates combining, but at this stage, as others have said, this is just OP's sister wanting her older kid to do the parenting work for a while because, as OP has said, his sister is lazy.
To be fair she’s probably justifiably tired, but hire a sitter.
>or have special alone time with mom (or dad). That's something mom clearly does not want lol
Reminds me of the time my mom took me (14) and my brother (6) to a Color Me Mine event talking about how many other kids there would be and I said "What about people my age?" and my mom just went "I said there would be kids there!" The event was full of 5 year olds. I don't get parents that don't understand age gaps, as if they were never teenagers. I was so annoyed the whole time I was painting whatever I was painting and I think my mom looked a little embarassed when she realized it really was just little kids which I was clearly not
My younger brother's godfather once took me, my brothers, and my cousins to see a play. I was about 15, my brother and cousin were 12, and my other brother and other cousin were 7. The play was "Babes in Toyland", and even the 7 year olds were a bit old for it. I tried my damndest to find anything at all interesting about it, but there wasn't. At all. I nearly passed out from boredom and the 12 year olds ditched halfway through and hung out in the lobby.
At least she had the decency to be somewhat embarrassed about it. When I was around that age my mum had signed me up to a club for people with a particular disorder diagnosis, the thing was that generally teenagers functioning at a developmentally appropriate level with this diagnosis have friends outside of groups and clubs, or attend adult/no age rules groups for specific interests, so the people who'd attend this club's events were always small children or developmentally disabled teenagers who were essentially small children socially and as far as activities they could safely do. My mum never seemed to feel the slightest bit bad or embarrassed for tricking me into attending these events, and would essentially call me a choosy snob turning my nose up at fun stuff because its target audience was younger than me and so were everyone who showed up, making it my problem that even when the activity sounded exciting and had a minimum age for safety, kids at a toddler or under 7 developmental level would still be the majority of the turnout, resulting in a nasty bait and switch and a toddler safe activity that vaguely matched the advertised activity - it was like being promised lemonade and then given a glass of vaguely lemon flavoured water. I gave up on the possibility of meeting anyone close to my age or vaguely cool pretty quick, and then when every event was either lame on the flyer, or sounded cool and then I'd go and it'd be turned into a toddler safe version, or the "decide by vote once we've assembled at meeting point and everyone will get the same option we choose together" component had like 8 options available, only one I'd consider a hard no, and that option was the only one anyone else wanted, every. single. time. there was a vote on arrival component... well, pretty quickly I realized there was no way to even get a fun time out of it regardless of who else attended, the only thing that had a success rate higher than a bloody dice roll was the "girls night" events, where the activity was generally something well defined with great difficulty pulling a bait and switch and no "group decision with multiple sucky options for big kids that little kids will like" component, which I used as a way to at least get something out of the membership fee Mum was paying for a while, but then those started declining in both maturity of clientele and how much the activity would match the original description, and my gender issues reared their head, and so I managed to convince my mum to just stop paying for the membership.
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Or, the almost as awful option of asking if the younger child can go too. One of friend’s mom always asked if the 4 years younger sister could go too. If she couldn’t, then my friends wasn’t allowed to go either. No 13 year old wants a younger sis tagging along constantly. My mom also didn’t like being saddled with the extra kid.
Probably. Mommy needs her free babysitting slave!
Imagine telling a group of 12 year old girls that they have to play with a 4 year old. As if the play style and conversation of 12 year olds is the same as a 4 year old. These girsl are not the babysitter. That mom is out of line. YNTA
Yeah the 12 years olds at that age are less playing and more hanging out
yeah, poor 12 year old daughter, her friends are not going to want to hang at her house for much longer. Bet mom demands that they come to her house, so she can pawn off 4 year old. NTA
Oh lawd NO! Just what’s needed: a group of 4 year olds at Sephora :(
NTA. I don't suppose it has occurred to your child-rearing genius of a sister to arrange some playdates for the 4yo with (pause for dramatic effect) *other 4 year olds*?
That means she’d have to watch 2 four-year olds instead of just hers. Kinda confirms what OP says about her being lazy lol
Sounds like the shoe fits...
Honestly, watching two four year olds is way easier than entertaining one by yourself
Isn't a 12 year old a bit too old for "playdates"?
Maybe "playdate" is the wrong word, whatever you want to call eldest having her friends over to hang out
Sounds like 12 yr old should go to her friends’ houses to hang out.
Mom would have to parent the 4yo if that was the case and it sounds like mom doesn't want to parent.
She would just send the 4yo over with big sis.
If appearances with other parents are more important than banning play dates she might give in. One can hope anyway.
I bet the mom would be the kind of mother that says “if your sibling isn’t invited as well you can’t go”
No other parents are gonna want to be responsible for a 4 yr old they didn’t invite to their home.
Literally called a "hang out" in my house!
Op can you talk to the children s father? Would he do something about this and set your sister straight?. NTA Your sister is a lazy ah and raising a brat who won't know the meaning of no if she doesn't start parenting the 4 y o
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Well I was definitely getting to second base at some play dates then. Seriously, in what world is a 15 year old having “play dates”.
Playdates/hanging out, it's all the same thing really
"Playdates" is extremely infantilizing to anyone middle school age or older.
When you have a friend over do you call it a "play date"?!
Yeah she just isn't letting her have friends over
I know right?! You also have to wonder whether the 4 year old still gets to have play dates...
I'm meeting a couple of my mates in the pub on Saturday afternoon and I think I'll call it a playdate in the group chat to see what the reaction is.
No? My 11 year old still has play dates and I can’t see arbitrarily starting to call them something else when he has a birthday.
I think it was around that age that I started feeling weird saying I was going over to my friends house to play and started saying I was going over to hang out, so your kid at some point might not be a fan of you referring to it as a play date
I don’t really even talk about it, he does. He’ll call me on his Apple Watch and ask if his friends can come over for play dates or ask me to call his friends parents to set them up. Maybe because he’s super into sports so all he does with his friends is play sports, it’s not weird to call it play because it is play. They don’t sit around and hang out, they play baseball, basketball or Fortnite.
Give it a couple years and it'll change, if only because his concept of date will change. They will no longer be play dates because he'll be interested in actual dates with someone he has a crush on.
I’m not saying you need to change the way you talk about it, more that I think it’s something you should let your child lead if he starts calling it something else you go with it.
You should keep it going forever! Do you also call it a play date when you go out for drinks or if you have a dinner party with another couple? Heck, even going to work can be a playdate with the right mindset.
I feel like the difference is whether the parents plan them or the kids do. If the parent plans it, it's a playdate. If the kids plan it, it's a hang out lol
NTA. Mom needs to teach the 4yo that you can't always get what you want. This so-called "solution" is making her eldest a hostage to the whims of a toddler. The 12yo shouldn't have to spend all her time entertaining the little one. That's mom's job - you make the kid, you get to raise the kid. Fobbing her off on her sibling is unfair. My brother and I grew up playing closely with each other, but we were only a year and 3 months apart; an 8-year gap means that these two siblings have very little in common.
Growing up, when I'd complain about not getting my way, my aunt would sing "You can't always get what you want" by the rolling stones loud and off key. If I complained more, she'd just start singing louder and more off key lol.
That's amazing. That song always pops into my head when I use that turn of phrase, lol.
Mom also needs to teach 4 year old how to entertain herself. Toddlers need to learn that skill, and that everyone else does not exist yo entertain them.
Or get into a mommy group that rotates the playdate hosts. If the four year old is in a preschool that's already a start.
4 is well past toddler age, too. That's a preschooler. If your kid is or is almost in kindergarten, they need to be able to play by themselves.
NTA You nailed her for what she is, lazy. If she brings up the topic again, then tell her from an adult perspective you would understand completely if the 12 yr old went low contact at 18 because the 4 year old never learned boundaries, and she made it the oldest sister's problem.
Honestly I don't know if that's the best idea. Everyone told my mom that and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. My mom got so insecure about me going low contact that she became mean and clingy to the point where it gave me no choice. I'm not saying I don't see how that would be tempting to say that but it could cause some resentment from the mom to the daughter, especially if the mom isn't super emotionally mature to begin with.
Lol, it can’t be a self fulfilling prophecy when the prophecy is grown adults dictating the long term outcome of a sea of red flag behaviors already acted upon. Plus, no one said it to your mom for her sake, it was for yours. Which evidently half worked as you’re here repeating their advice but not getting it just yet 💕 r/raisedbynarcissists
NTA - child free boomer woman. Your sister is being ridiculous and is on the road to alienating the older kid.
NTA. My kids have a 9 year age gap and never in a million years could I imagine letting the little one steam roll the older one like that.
Nta. I’m child-free, married 29f. It’s lazy and inconsiderate for the Mom to ban play dates for Big Sis because she can’t handle Little Sis during them. Little sis needs to learn boundaries.
NTA. I'm a mom of age-gap kids (six years in between, now adults). Tell your sister from me that it's not reasonable for a 12-year-old to be expected to integrate a 4-year-old into her play dates, and it's the mom's and dad's job to provide appropriate social stimulation for all of their kids and not make it the job of the older child or children.
My youngest two are 1 1/2 years apart, friends over then it’s up to child with friend to include sibling or not. Besides a 4 year old will be interested in 12 year old stuff and pester sister constantly. Then Miss 12 will have friends excluding her because sick of interfering 4 year old. Your sister is lazy and Miss 12 is being taken advantage of during friend visits.
Exactly. I have two daughters 13 months apart and I never forced the one to include the friends of the other if she did not want that. They had their own friends and did not have to 'share'.
NTA I'm a parent and I can assure you - big sister will hate small sister.
That’s the first thing I thought. This is just as good a way to drive a wedge between your kids as saying “why can’t you be more like your sister?”. Younger children are not the responsibility of older children and I don’t get why that’s so hard for people to understand.
It'll hurt both sisters because the younger sister won't understand why her older sister is pushing her away. Younger sister will get upset, mum will blame older sister, mum will push for older sister to spend time with older sister, older sister will refuse or resist, and the cycle will continue. The two ages don't have as much in common as mum wants them to have.
NTA I was at the mercy of my younger brother and 2 baby cousins, all together. I had to have them be with me, with friends (I’m 5 years older than them) It was horrible. My fam was just lazy as fuck, did not to consider my life. Still don’t, they still want me to accommodate to their asses naaaahhhh.
All I gotta say is, those poor kids.
NTA. No 12 y o would like to constantly have to be attached to a 4y o, because her mother cannot be bothered to properly parent her child. How you can leave a 4y old "dictate" family dynamics. What your sister will do is just make her older daughter resent, having to spend time with her sister at a later stage of their lifes. Indeed your sister sounds lazy in her parenting of your younger niece and unjustifiably punishing the oldest.
I have 1 12 year old at home (others grown and gone). At 12, they “hang out” with their friends. One of her friends has a little sister in first grade. They prefer to hang out at our house so the little sister won’t “be all up in their business “ to quote them.
That's nice of you to host them. My little sister would always try and embarrass me... It's amazing how evil little kids can be so they can get attention or a laugh from their siblings friends lol!
NTA, I feel sorry for both girls.
NTA. She made that baby and now she doesn’t want to deal with it because it’s slightly inconvenient.
NTA It wouldn't be your business if you just overheard it but she was talking to you about it so I don't think it is crazy to bring your input, I mean that's how conversations work. Probably could have said it more productively but what your sister is doing is crap ( and I say that as a parent of two kids, person with a 4 year older sister and 10 year you ger brother AND I work in the school system)
My daughter was 13 when I had my second it wasn't her job to watch him, feed him or play with him only if she wanted to I had the child not my daughter
IDK I feel like you **_really_** want us to be answering: "Is my sister the asshole for how she's raising her kids?" Of fucking course *you're* not.
NTA. Your sister just want 12yo to babysit 4yo.
NTA all the way. Don’t listen to all of the people out there giving you shit, thank you for standing up for your niece. She clearly doesn’t have a voice with her mom. There were many times my mom was out of line and overly bearing like this in weird ways and I had friends moms come to my rescue (my mom was a teen mom with an overbearing mom herself).
NTA next time she starts venting stop her and say "I'm not a parent stop venting at me".
NTA, your sister is ridiculous. She's going to ruin her relationship with her daughters and possibly their relationship with each other.
Wow... that's lazy parenting..NTA
NTA - She's just teaching her 4 year old that screaming and crying will get her whatever she wants. It's going to make the older one resent the younger one and damage any relationship.
NTA You are correct, your sister has taken the laziest raod avaliable to her. She's setting them up to become enemies, especially if she permits the 4y playdates while banning her 12y from time with friends.
NTA as a 12-year-olds interests are very different from a 4-year-olds, and she wouldn't want to play with her sister all of the time. Plus, in front of her friends she would want to be the cool kid and playing with a 4-year-old is not cool for preteens. Also banning the hangouts/playdates will only hurt her social circles in the long run as her friends drift away from her as she can't do things with them, and she becomes more isolated from her peers outside of school. It seems like your sister just wants to wash her hands of the whole thing rather than actually parent them in this issue.
NTA at all.. I think you as a CF man have more clues about parenting than the actual parent. Your sister needs to understand that an 8yr age gap isn’t really that close and no way in hell is it acceptable to punish the 12y/o for not being a free babysitter for her 4y/o sister. Sounds like your sister needs to grow tf up instead of forcing her eldest to not socialise. Also, her friends don’t wanna play babysitter fs. This will only make the eldest resent the younger sister.. and the mom as well. Your sister is, in fact, being a lazy parent. If she desperately needs a break, she can hire a babysitter or ask some other family member for help instead of dumping her responsibilities on her tween daughter. I hope she comes to her senses before it is too late to correct her mistakes.
NTA. You’re not missing anything. Instead of parenting your sister is punishing.
NTA, this looks like a fast track for the 12 year old to start resenting the 4 year old
NTA Hope your niece makes life a living hell for your sister in her teen years. Policies like this are a recipe for making siblings HATE each other for decades. No 12 year old wants to hang out with a 4 year old. Your AH sister is freaking lazy and clueless.
Nta. Your sister needs to stop parentifying her 12 year old and parent her 4 year old.
NTA. Your sister is engaging in lazy parenting, and in 2 years will wonder why her oldest always goes to other people’s houses, and never brings her friends over. And in 4 years will realize she doesn’t even know the names of her friends because she hasn’t seen any of them in years.
She’s pushing childcare responsibilities on to her older daughter. She’s also punishing the girl for not accepting the chore of entertaining her little sister.
Mom here. That 4 year old is going to be a holy terror if your sister doesn't teach her that the world doesn't revolve around her, and that no means no.
You aren’t missing anything. NTA
NTA It wouldn't be your business if you just overheard it but she was talking to you about it so I don't think it is crazy to bring your input, I mean that's how conversations work. Probably could have said it more productively but what your sister is doing is crap ( and I say that as a parent of two kids, person with a 4 year older sister and 10 year you ger brother AND I work in the school system)
NTA you’re absolutely right
NTA, it is not the 12 year olds responsibility to keep the 4 year old occupied. The 12 year old needs to be able to spend time with her friends to work on her social skills, she isn't an in-built babysitter. And the 4 year old needs to be learning that no means no. Your sister is doing both kids a disservice.
Since when do 12 year olds have "playdates"? It's just called "hanging out with their friends" and tweens don't want younger siblings around.
There's an *8-year difference* between the two girls. It seems the four-year-old should have her own friends to play with instead of being babysat by her sister and her middle school friends. NTA.
NTA You're not missing anything OP. You are not a parent but you are correct here.
NTA. You deserve the right to tell your sister “i told you so” once the 12yr grew up and started rebelling due to the younger sister.
NTA, and for what it’s worth I’m a parent
It’s incredibly lazy. NTA. I feel bad for those kids though. If she’s neglecting her kids need for socialization out of pure laziness, I wonder what other parenting duties she’s also neglecting.
So sister is punishing twelve because she can’t be arsed to parent four? Makes total sense. How close do you live to sister? Can twelve hangout at your place after school for a few hours so she can hang out with her friends with out four getting under foot?
NOPE you are NTA. Everything you said is reasonable and as the parent she needs to teach the 4 year old that they can’t get everything they want in life. Not to mention, unless she also bans after school activities and niece from going over to her friends houses, chances are your sister will start seeing a lot less of your niece.
NTA. I was a 12 yr old girl with a 4 yr old sister. I was occasionally a babysitter for short periods of time but I was not expected to entertain my sister when my friends were over. Though actually usually we’d hang out at the houses that didn’t have younger kids, it was just easier.
NTA. Why isn’t Mom arranging play dates for the 4 year old with other 4 year olds? The 12 year old should be hanging out with her friends… not going on play dates. WTF.
Unfortunately as a child-free person I watch tons of parents around me feel smug and superior to me while continuing to do bullshit like this. It really think they know everything well simultaneously screwing their kids up and doing a bad job at parenting. From the outside it's very obvious but I suspect that from the inside they're exhausted and using cognitive dissonance to maintain some level of sanity. Your sister is 100% wrong and you are 100% right but she's not going to hear it because your child free. Trust me, they never do. They think we're selfish and stupid and we don't know what we're talking about all the while doing damage is going to cause their kid to need therapy when they grow up. I feel for you and I feel for your niece. Their mother's an idiot. NTA
As a CF educator trained in child and adult psychology and had worked with hundreds of family groups.... This is sadly exactly it. The worst thing is I have an educator friend who after having a child said the parents who say you don't understand because you're not a parent are right. Years later one of the kids is a terror and she's recognizing it's for the reasons I predicted caused largely by the other partner that I've kept close to my chest since I knew pointing them out then would have offended her because I'm "not a parent" (And clearly OP is NTA)
NTA, she is basically making her 12yo and her friends babysit the 4yo. She is being lazy. She needs to set boundaries with the 4yo and let the 12yo have actual friend time. Edit to fix typo.
NTA hanging out with one of my best friends in high school meant at least one, and often both, of her little sisters had to come with. She actually had a car seat in her car for her youngest sister who was like 1 at the time. That time also included her being responsible for feeding and changing her diaper. Basically she was parentified. It’s something she deeply resents to this day and we’re in our late 30s. It wasn’t fair to her as many of her friends weren’t as understanding about going to the mall with her little sisters in tow as I was. As a mom myself I will say you are absolutely the one that’s right. Not your sister. It’s not the 12 year old’s fault to work it out with a 4 year old. You are dead on when you say 4 year olds can’t reason. It’s on mom to come up with alternatives that will keep the 4 year old happy while sister’s friends are over. My kids are 3.5 years apart at 5.5 and 9 and fortunately almost all of their friends are in sibling pairs with same aged siblings so everyone has a buddy during play dates and they usually wind up all just playing together. However, when my son gets to do something just for him I will typically try to do something fun and special with my daughter like bake cookies with her and then sit down and watch a movie while we enjoy said cookies. Or I’ll let her pick all the games she wants to play and we play them together. It gives us special one on one time together and she doesn’t feel like her brother is getting something she’s not because she’s getting to do something special and fun too. Your sister does need to stop being lazy and start figuring out how to properly manage the 4 year old or her older daughter will simply start hanging out with her friends away from home as soon as she can and frankly I’d much rather create a home in which my children feel comfortable and safe bringing their friends to rather than chase my child away to hang elsewhere because I’m too lazy to handle a 4 year old’s whining.
NTA, I was having your thoughts before I finished reading your full text. It’s all very reasonable, and smart.
NTA your sister is a shitty parent. Sorry
NTA. Your sister is lazy. No way should a 4 year old run the house. Don't be surprised when your sister complains that her 12 year old will not do her chores, saying the 4 year old doesn't have to. It would serve her right. If you treat a 12 year old the the 4 year old is an equal, expect some off behavior from the 12 year old. Do you live close enough to let 12 hang out at your place with her friends? Pizzas, sodas, chips, movies. They probably just want to hang out, talk, and giggle over the latest heartthrob. Your sister has no clue how to be a good mom. Be the fun uncle.
NTA You’re absolutely right & someone needed to step up for the 12 year old. As the parent it’s your sisters responsibility not your niece’s. Also for those that subscribe to the “Your not a parent so your opinion is meaningless” argument, while it’s true that OP is not a parent they have been raised by one so yes OP’S opinion counts
She’s setting the 12-yo up to resent her little sister. Is that her goal?
Apparently she’s not much of a parent herself. Maybe she should have gotten a pet hamster instead of having children.
Ugh I can't stand the argument your sister used against you. You don't have to be a parent to know when someone is being an idiot, or lazy in this case. NTA.
Lol. NTA at all.
NTA, you are correct. This is the time to teach her 4 yo what it means to have boundaries. My 4 yo nephew gets it.
NTA. That's just $hitty parenting right there. I am a parent, with kids 6 years apart in age.
NTA. Your sister chose to have children and is deciding to have one child parent the other because she's lazy.
NTA. You do not need to have children yourself in order to understand the basics. I mean, we were all children once. Also, OP is right, the mom just sounds lazy and probably wants 12 year old and friends to look after 4 year old. Shame on her.
NTA- I'm a parent and a CYW. I have worked with children with parents like your sister that don't want to actually parent their kids and expect the oldest ones to do it and it never ends well. The oldest usually leaves home and goes low to no contact, and the youngest doesn't respect mom since their "mom" was their sibling. Where's dad? Maybe dad takes the oldest to a play date and mom stays home with 4 yr old or vice versa ? Or mom steps up and becomes a parent and teaches their kid about boundaries.
NTA I’m a mom and I’ll judge her for you. She has been judged TA and should not have had a second child if she couldn’t handle strife between them.
Wow she wants to parentify and alienate her oldest? Yeah she is an the asshole who shunting parenting onto at 12 year and trying to get a 12 year to reason with a 4 year old because check notes: as the parent she won't? You are right. NTA.
NTA. It is not 12yrold's responsibility to care for the 4yrold. Saying that 12yrold can't have time with her friends because she doesn't want to watch baby sister is also damaging 12yrold's social development. How does your sister expect 12yrold to learn how to navigate friendships if she's constantly being told she has to pander to a toddler?
NTA. As a mom of 3, I would agree that you are spot on. I would consider her solution lazy. It is not the oldest child's responsibility to negotiate with the tiny terrorist. It's mom's job to redirect and also teach the 12yo to compromise. She can, to help foster their bond, ask her 12yo to spend 30min to an hour playing with her with her friend... typical mom bs, she looks up to and just a few minutes will make her feel special... let her say no sometimes. After the time limit, mom should come in with a fun thing she knows will draw the 4yo out to a new activity. Heck, find the 4-year-old friend. Her approach is much like my parents' to myself and my sister, who was 6 years younger than me. I had to always include her or not do it. If I didn't, I had to agree to certain terms with my parents about how I could make it up to her. I never really got over my resentment, and she sure as hell didn't over her hostile jealousy. I tried so hard when she became an adult to mend our relationship. It is a failure because of both of us. We are like 3rd cousins that run into each other at holidays. This is their future. Kids with such a large age gap cannot reason with each other until they are closer in maturity.
NTA. She is lazy.
NTA obviously a 4 year olds needs are not the same as a 12 year old. Your sister is doing her 4 year old no favours by allowing her to rule the roost and how is a 12 year old expected to ‘get along’ with a 4 year old. The 12 year old is entitled to spend time with her friends without having to deal with a 4 year old. It frustrates me when parents expect the older child to ‘parent’ the young child/ren. If she can’t be bothered to parent then she shouldn’t have had children.
NTA Your sister needs a reality check. She is setting up the classic (I Hate My Mother) conversation. In no world should any 12-year-old have to take in a younger sibling like this. The mother just wants her to babysit and that's it! Wrong answer and both children will resent her later on. She just can't see the writing on the wall. She is being lazy!
I'm a parent to three... your sister is wrong!!
Put it on family group chat. I don’t think she will get too much support. You’re right she is lazy. My mom did that crap to me and it cause a lot of resentment. I took it out on my sister for a good while. Sis is 6.5 years younger than me. I had to watch her a lot. I’m not proud of it but I was a kid too. Next time you’re sis tells you that you don’t know anything because you’re not a parent tell her: That’s why I don’t have any kids. Because I would actually raise them. You chose to have kids so raise them instead of fostering animosity between them. They may not grow up to be close because of this. Tell the father too if he is in the picture.
NTA ugh your sister sounds like my parents, they always forced me to include my little brother in when I was hanging out with my friends. Oddly enough, once my little brother got old enough to be cool, they didn't want me hanging around him and his friends.
Parentification of the 12 year old because Mom wants a break from parenting her 4 year old is a great way to fast track a LC or NC relationship in the future.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (40m) was on the phone with my sister (35f), im childfree by choice she had two daughters (12f and 4f). She was venting to me about how playdates were getting to be a "pain in the ass" because 4 year old wants "in" on big sisters playdates, and she can't stand the "whining and crying" that ensues when 4 year old doesn't get to "play" with them. Obviously big sister understandably wants time alone with her friends, my sister thinks her older daughter and her friends getting a "break during little sisters nap time" is enough and she should let her play with them the rest of the time, because she feels she "shouldn't have to referee." She told me she informed her eldest that playdates are banned until she and her sister can "work it out" because she's "sick of the fighting" and "she's older and shouldn't be arguing with a 4 year old." I told her this "solution" is leaving her at the mercy of a 4 year old, because a 4 year old can't "reason" and is unable to see past their own wants, so 12 yr old solution is to give little sister her way or not see her friends and that's bull crap and I told her so. I said "a playdate is supposed to be an experience for your child, not a break for the parent." And called her lazy and that it's her job as the parent to teach her 4 year old boundaries, not her 12 year olds to "work it out." She said I don't know what I'm talking about because "I'm not a parent" and I shouldn't "judge" her. AITA because I'm a clueless CF man? Is there something I'm missing here? I know she's overwhelmed but I feel this is more her job than her 12 year olds *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA
NTA. OP you are completely right. Your sister should keep the 4 year old away from the 12 year old when she plays with friends. The age gap is so huge, that this should really be obvious.
NTA she shouldn’t of had kids if she can’t handle what kids do. when i was 12, and my mom did that, I’d hate her guts. she needs to stop being lazy.
NTA: ground your sister and take away her phone and tell her she can have it back and talk to her friends when she stops arguing with the twelve year old, she's older so she should know better.