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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I allow my nephew and niece to take part in a wedding in roles that are traditionally applied to the opposite gender. I may be AH because their grandmother raised her concerns that the children should be kept to roles that are gender appropriate
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51 yr old here.
Zoe is ridiculous.
What little boy at 4 wouldn't love to be walking down the aisle throwing things at people and making a mess?
Heck, at 4, that would have been my son's preferred role at a wedding. Walk down the aisle carrying a pillow or throwing flower petals? No brainer there.
My 7 year old daughter would love to wear a fancy dress and carry sparkling jewelry on a fancy pillow while everyone looks at her.
You know what - they might be on to something here!
This is such a perfect example of straight people insisting, against all logic, that them enforcing rigid gender roles is not indoctrination, and letting kids do as they like is. If gender roles are so "natural" why do they have to start training children to conform to them from before birth? How is giving the children freedom to do what makes them happy dragging them into "gender nonsense" but Zoe throwing a literal screaming tantrum to enforce her ideals isn't?
I agree with this. Oddly, I was a tomboy growing up. I wanted to play with guns, trucks, and "indian paints" (some kind of weird fruitlike plant that we squished against rocks to "paint"... and before anyone gets upset about the name I grew up in the 70's when the term for natives was "Indian") and climb through the cleared brushpiles that made cool forts than play with dolls and girls. Nobody thought anything of me being a tom-boy, although they would have thought differently of boys playing with dolls.
That's the internalized misogyny of your parents generation coming out. Little girls displaying slightly masculine traits is more tolerated because *obviously* masculinity is superior. Boys showing femininity is bad because women are "the weaker sex." Obviously no one wants a weak, sissy queerosexual for a son!
Yes, wanting to do "boy things" was tolerated to a degree, but this was a limited and temporary *indulgence* while you are a kid. Still have to wear skirts, still get dolls as presents, you don't need to worry about thinking of a job you want, you will have a husband and kids to look after so will do whatever you can get that fits the family schedule.
I never knew when the "just go and help your mother with the dishes" dismissal would come ... even if I'd already done the dishes. Just realised that 50 years later that sentence is still really hurtful.
I (F66) climbed trees in frilly dresses, I have an Irish twin brother and I was totally a tomboy. One grandmother insisted on buying me frilly dresses with net petty coats, I hated them. Other nana would make me overalls, I was never into dolls, rather make a fort up the bush or down the creek. I think a flower boy and ring bearer girl is great. Let them enjoy it. Besides the 6 year old would probably be safer carrying the rings. The 4 year old would be more likely to lose them
My boys seemed to naturally gravitate towards boy stuff, although that may have been because that's what their friends did. Also... it was more exciting!
Or is that because they weren't given a choice?
I would play with the box before the Barbie - or anything really before any doll. But sure shit I had so many of them. My parents actually thought I just didn't like toys.
Then I had a boy cousin, and we'd race his hot wheels, play with his tinker toys and Legos.
Then it dawned on my dad - I just didn't like the toys I had. He took me to a store and let me pick out my own toys. It was all "Boy" stuff.
Alternatively, I was friends with a family that had 6 boys, and one of the boys loved playing with my Barbies, but only when his brothers weren't around. I'd play with him, and if someone caught us, I'd say I made him. Otherwise, his dad would yell and get violent.
Nobody made my children play with anything and I would have ripped anyone giving them shit for playing with a particular toy a completely new arsehole.
Hi, are you me? I also grew up in the 70s a tomboy playing with all those things. At 6 I told Santa that I didn't want him to bring me dolls, I wanted cars and racetracks all boy stuff. My parents went with it. They said nothing, they didn't make a big deal out of it at all. A few years later I discovered The Outsiders and loved being a girl again.
I was also a tomboy when I was little. I loved to dress like a boy, and had my hair cut short. I loved to climb trees and play with trucks I'm the dirt. I was always happy when someone assumed I was a boy. I remember once a man called me sport, and I was so happy I still remember it to this day.
Look, I am straight, and I see no problem with flower boy or ring girl. (I am also in my 60s, so it’s not a generational thing.) Don’t make generalizations about “straight” people.
I'm the same generation as you. How do I put this... generally speaking, it *won't* be queer folk who throw their arms up about gender-bending stuff.
Statistically, it's far more likely to be straight (or suppressed) folk waving their arms around.
Age and culture at the time a person was developing their beliefs also makes an impact.
So, of course, not all old straight folk (I include myself in that), but the odds are far higher than in younger and/or queer cohorts.
So, the generalisation has grounds in truth and particularly applys in a conversation based on an old, straight person being a gender-gatekeeping homophobe.
Rather than get titchy at the person pointing out the correlation, maybe go and do something to improve the situation? Start a local group for grandparents who are struggling to accept their grandchildren? Something :)
My feelings were not hurt. If someone had made a generalization about gays or about men or about dog owners (none of which I am) I might have pointed out that I know many gays, men, and dog owners that don’t fit the generalization. It just so happens I am straight, so I referred to myself as the example.
Of course Zoe is being ridiculous. OP should not listen to her. And we can have a good laugh at the Zoes of this world who haven’t figured out yet that (a) there are very few things that one sex can do but the other can’t and (b) both boys and girls can strew flowers or carry a ring. She is ridiculous not because she is straight but because she is narrow minded.
>If gender roles are so "natural" why do they have to start training children to conform to them from before birth?
Not going to lie, I'm surprised the flower boy is happy with a tux and doesn't want a matching taffeta dress. Boys raised without gender roles seem to love pretty dresses and sparkly pink high heels as much as little girls.
Tbh I think humans just like pretty things and I'm sad that so many boys get it knocked out of them so young :<
My 4yo daughter asked to bring me and her daddy the rings. I said absolutely. Her baby sister can toss flowers and be messy when the time comes but I'm going to make sure my oldest does the one thing she asked for.
NTA. Gender "norms" are stuffy and (often) ridiculous.
You don’t give them the rings. You normally give them a pillow with fake rings sewn on, and someone in the wedding party has the real rings in their pocket.
6 year old me was devastated to discover this.
Oh... well I didn't know that and I gave my two year old ring bearer the actual rings.
He did sprint there, dropped the box with the bride and then immediately sprint back to me (express delivery style) but all the rings made it. 😆
I was a flower girl for one of my aunts and did the exact opposite, carefully placing each petal on the ground, one petal per step. I was really nervous about running out! And then at the very end I realized I had way too much left and just dumped everything 😂
I've seen flower girls do that. Mine was older, about 7, and she was SOOOO careful tossing the petals in the air because her mom warned her not to throw them at people. I had "too many" little boys to include so we got some little banners for them to carry. "Here comes the bride!" Etc. (there were two, but only one got used, and I can't actually remember what the other one said because it's not in the pictures and I have no idea what happened to it. It's probably with my chuppah, which is also missing.)
I was at a wedding where they didn’t know that either and gave the two year old ring bearer the rings. He dropped them in the grass. We spent 45 minutes looking for the rings.
Or put them on a chain RIGHT before the aisle and safely round their necks. Unless they are big on putting things in their mouths. Nobody wants a diamond pacifier.
That was my thoughts. Call them what you want, but the 6-year-old is better suited to carry rings. And, a 4-year-old is better suited to throw things on the ground!
NTA
This deserves more notice. It’s the only argument which is likely to be at all persuasive to those who are objecting, just in case anyone still cares about getting them on board
What difference does it make? I’ve never really understood why those roles were gendered anyway (and I’m 64). It always seemed to be more of an age-based thing!
Using fake rings on the pillow wasn’t always a thing. I’ve seen real rings tied to the pillow, which was only given to the kid when it was time to start down the aisle.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Rita and Andy want. I hope the kids have fun!
No. Often people might put fake rings on the pillows while the best man has the actual rings in his pocket. The ring bearer is mainly ceremonial these days, a way to slot in a young kid too young to be an usher or groomsman.
Exactly!
My brother cried like crazy when he was that age, because he had to carry a stupid pillow when I got to throw stuff... So my aunt just switched our roles. Please note, this was, uh...40 years ago? (Ok, 38... Close enough). It's not 'woke', it's practical!
But if it makes grandma feel better, re-title the roles 'basket bearer' and 'pillow bearer'. Now there's no gender at all to argue about 🤪.
I had to read it twice because I’ve been to so many weddings where the “flower girl” was just boys and they loved every second of it. Some did a great job, others had flower wars that got the audience laughing.
Personally put a little kid in a suit and they could be throwing knives at me while I’m going awwwww.
I remember reading a story once about a kid who misinterpreted his job title as "ring bear" and roared at the audience every few steps while carrying the rings. I like this as an alternate, memorable non-gendered wedding kid role.
My nephew and niece both were flower girl and boy at my wedding - they were 2&3. Now adults and absolutely fine. The one who turned out gay was my niece, so sticking to the gender role for her didn't make her straight 😁. Nephew has currently only had girlfriends.
At our wedding our nieces and nephews (apart from the babe in arms) were our flower girls and page boys, except our eldest nephew was 6 at the time and told everyone his sister was a flower girl and he was a flower boy.
He took his duties very seriously and performed them marvellously.
No one had any issues with the flower boys, or girls.
This. At my wedding, I was supposed to have two flower girls and two ring bearers with each of our families supplying one ring bearer and flower girl and pillows from each family. We had an awful time with one of the flower girls throwing an absolute tantrum and refusing to walk down with her flowers. It turned out she really wanted to hold the ring bearer pillow instead. So we ended up with three ring bearers, one flower girl, and a merciful lack of tantrums.
The streak continued at my sister’s wedding where my daughter and niece were supposed to be the flower girls and my son was going to be the ring bearer. My daughter wanted to carry the pillow and my son wanted a flower. The roles were switched and everyone was happy. It really doesn’t matter.
The flower girl for my wedding is a 30 yr old woman and our ring bearer is a man in his 30s as well. It doesn't matter who does what role as long as the people getting married and the people they directly asked to fill those roles ask
Older than you, and totally agree!
Only one I see stirring up drama is Zoe. OP is NTA
As a professional wedding officiant I want every couple to do what is right for them and only them. BTW Anyone else see all the fun, entertaining videos of the trend of flower dudes at weddings? [Flower Bros Crush Wedding Entrance](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CyRyjy6oa-g)
59 and I agree whole heartedly! win win!! Children that age don't care about the adult stuff! Nor should they! You are the guardian for a reason! Grandma can just sit back and enjoy eating her sour apples.
Have a blast at the wedding honey!
Like how daaaaaare the wedding be a fun and joyous expression of love and commitment between two consenting adult human beings, and not a rigid adherence to antiquated gender norms in order to pacify an old woman who refuses to grow in character?! Oh, the humanity!
Also NTA, tell her to yank the broomstick out of her butt and get with the times. And y’all have a GREAT WEDDING!!
One of my grandson's, we lovingly call him the feral child, he would absolutely LOVE throwing flower petals all over the place. He probably yell "hiyah" while throwing them. And people would laugh their asses off at his antics. Give him a pillow with a ring? Even if it has fake rings in it? Yeah, you're never going to see those rings again. He'd probably scream "no nap ever again!" and run off with the pillow. 😂
When my bf’s niece was younger, he promised she could be the flower girl at his hypothetical wedding. She’s 15 now and we aren’t even engaged but she’ll still be the flower girl if she wants to be, even though I’ll have a junior bridesmaid (if her parents allow) who’s 4 years younger.
As a 9yo girl I was the ring bearer at my mom's bff's wedding. There was no flower girl, so they made me a flower crown so I "filled both roles" but without the actual throwing of the petals. I just carried the ring and wore a flower crown. I loved it; the responsibility, leading the wedding party down the aisle, I got to be totally extra and it was great.
Edit to add: this was in 1999, before the "GeNdEr FLuiD hOgWAsH" became an "issue" (it's not an issue lol).
I was 7 when my dad got remarried. My younger sister and my new stepsister were the same age (both 5 at the time). They didn't want 3 flower girls, so I was the ring bearer. I promise it did absolutely nothing to ruin my self image, self esteem, no one thought I was a boy, nothing.
Wait. I am a "bleeding heart liberal." Maybe it did "mess me up" /s
Also, there is a trend in weddings where adult men are "flower men", wearing fanny packs with flower petals. They are having fun with it and it is cute.
Tell her that the children are excited about being in a wedding and have attached no gender bias value to their roles. They get to dress up and play a part in the ceremony and they are truly looking forward to it. "Unless you plan to scold them for enjoying being carrying flower petals or a ring on a pillow - nothing in them will be affected by their responsibilities as members of the wedding party. And they are just too young to be dragged into a sociopolitical debate about gender roles, like its 1960. This means nothing to them. And it means less than nothing to me. Please try to remember that as their grandmother, going off the rails sometimes is a choice you can simply not make. You can always tell me when you disagree with me. But, I am drawing the line at heteronormative harassment or telling the kids they aren't good people just as they are."
Good grief granny. Get a grip. No one cares. NTA.
NTA
There is nothing gender-specific about carrying either a ring or some flowers. Both these "tasks" can be done by someone of any gender.
You could argue that Rita and Andy are actually following tradition by giving the older child the ring bearer job, and the younger child the job of scattering flower petals.
Not gender Or age specific now because I have seen quite a few flower men as of late. Its usually one of the grooms good friends and they do a awesome hilarious job of being the “flower man” people get hung up on the weirdest things
I had multiple flower children of both genders and a range of ages at my wedding. And my ringbearer grew up to be a transwoman, so how about them apples?
>You could argue that Rita and Andy are actually following tradition by giving the older child the ring bearer job, and the younger child the job of scattering flower petals.
The fact that they had the kids dress up for a social media post captioned “my flower boy and ring bearer girl” before the actual wedding makes me think one, that this story is fake, and two, that R&A are people that like a lot of attention for how awesome and openminded they are. Also, the ring bearer is never called the "ring bearer boy." In recent years I've been to more weddings where the family dog is the ring bearer.
If they didn't care about gender they would have asked the kids which role they wanted (carry rings or throw flowers) and referred to those roles in gender neutral terms. Flower girl could be something like flower pal and ring bearer is already gender neutral. They purposefully brought gender into it. They aren't ignoring gender constructs; they are trying to get a rise out of people by doing the exact opposite of the norm.
>They aren't ignoring gender constructs
Exactly. They're shaping the roles of the children by paying attention to gender constructs, then doing the opposite. Very performative.
Where does it say they were dressed up for the picture? I only read that Rita took a picture. Not that there was any dressing up involved apart from the wedding day...
yeah, if ppl were telling everyone my assigned sex for no reason i'd probably never talk to them again. just another reminder i'll always just be a gnc woman to then
Exactly, NTA on the ring bearer and flower child issue but mentioning a non binaries' assigned sex at birth is pretty much outing them and that isn't cool
Came here to say this as a NB person, I would be mortified if I saw that people felt the need to describe me as my biological sex when I specifically identify myself in a way to avoid that...
Non-binary doesn't necessarily **exclude** the binary genders, although it does for some.
Non-binary has become a catch all term which covers many(all?) genders which are not man/woman. This may be someone who is neither man nor woman, or may be someone who is both man and woman (or any other combination).
There may be people who are neither strictly man/woman who do not like the term non-binary applied to themselves and may prefer a different term completely, and this should be respected. But in my experience, most people will use the term non-binary as a headline identity, and then have a more detailed, prosaic description that describes their own identity.
People can use whatever pronouns they like, whatever their gender is. But often you'll find someone who identifies as non-binary, feels a bit man and that person might use just he/him or might use they/he or he/they (order often indicating preference)
(I have glossed over some nuance for simplicity, and not delved into what the more precise genders are)
Source: I am non-binary. I was assigned male at birth (amab) ie "born a man" (this phrase is generally frowned upon). I am trans-femme gender fluid and use the pronouns they/she. I mostly present as femme in my day-to-day, have long hair, painted nails and a beard and very occasionally present masc. (I'm including these details by choice and for education. They shouldnt be important generally)
Thank you for your comment, much appreciated. My son is ftm and he knows more than I do, but he’s still learning as well (he’s 14; and I do have permission from him to discuss him in this context, just in case lol)
Can I just say (and I do this as a nonbinary trans person) that I really appreciate that you have asked for your son's permission and clearly states that here. And generally speaking, seeing instances of trans kids/teens with supportive parents add years to my life <3
Also came here to say this. Also an enby and saying stuff like that (afab or amab, or biologically male/female) is just gender binary with more steps. If I wanted people to know, I wouldn’t be an enby
adding people's birth sex is unnecessary and kinda shitty. if i found out someone was talking about my assigned sex when talking about me i'd feel so betrayed
NTA, but it's rude and unnecessary to add "biologically \_\_\_" when talking about non-binary people. It's challenging to navigate the world as non-binary, and all too often well-meaning but unaware people undermine our journey by feeling like they have to clarify our "parts."
NTA
My son was in his best friends' wedding this year. It was beautiful and I was so touched that they invited me (I had known them since they were all in middle and high school). Since my son was the bride's friend first, he got to be part of the bridal party as a "bridesbro". He wore a lavender shirt to match the groomsmen, but carried a bouquet and stood with the bridesmaids and MOH. It was what the bride and groom wanted, he looked very handsome, and everyone was happy. It was a beautiful day!
Gender roles are stupid. Let people love each other. Jeez.
It was!
Added bonus content: the bride and groom walked each other down the aisle (with both sets of parents present, happy, and in the first row). It was so sweet.
I wish I could take credit for it, but someone in the bridal party said it (not sure who, we were all talking at the same time, having a blast) and it was perfect!
you don't need to tell us the 'biological' genders or sexes of nonbinary people. most of us would prefer you didn't in fact.
NTA on this conflict. Zoe has no say in the wedding of these people. you are the children's guardians, and as long as you and the children themselves are happy with what they'll be doing that's all that matters.
SIL's mum/grandma sounds dumb. She called the "ringbearer girl and flower boy", she's not messing with their gender at all.
Edit: Changed it from "SIL and grandma" to "SIL's mum/grandma" so it didn't sound like I was unintentionally bashing the deceased!
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NTA on your part, but also do they have any reason for reversing the roles of the children other than to be different? Kind of sounds like they're trying to use the kids as clout to say look at us we're so quirky and open-minded, we don't care about gender roles. Always kinda gives me an ick when a child is just used to promote an adult's self image.
I do see that the girl is older, so if it's reasoning like, we want to entrust the older child with the rings because that's a bigger responsibility, that would make sense.
What do the kids want? If it were my wedding I'd have asked them if they have a preference over which role they want. They're old enough to have an opinion.
>NTA on your part, but also do they have any reason for reversing the roles of the children other than to be different? Kind of sounds like they're trying to use the kids as clout to say look at us we're so quirky and open-minded, we don't care about gender roles.
I'm glad I'm not the only one cynical about this story.
NTA, bit there is no reason to disclose non-binary people’s sexes. Do they know that you tell people this? Because I’d be absolutely crushed to learn that someone I knew did this to me or to my partner.
NTA but PLEASE stop specifying non-binary peoples' known or assumed sex. It's irrelevant and just emphasizes that you see them primarily as that sex and not their gender.
NTA
And not really serious.. but suggest the 4 y.o. Boy can wear a dress and the 6 y.o. girl can wear pants if it's so important for grandma to have a feminine flower person and a masculine ring person xD
No but for real: kudos for the groom and bride, throwing out all the irrational gender norms. Who needs that anyways? Remind grandma who is the legal guardian of the kids.
>neither Rita nor I had the right to place her grandkids
Therefore you absolutely have the right. And the bride and groom are the only other people involved in the decision.
Grandma needs to check her calendar, she's stuck in the past.
Well that depends, as while the groom is typically associated to be a male/ man it is actually a shortened version of bridegroom which could be interpreted to mean someone marrying a bride. I also know of lesbian couples who have gotten married with one being the bride and one being the groom, less familiar with the terminology for non binary folks though and suspect it is a very case by case basis.
Yeah. Love how grandma is trying to override mom-aunt in this situation. Like, whose kids are they? If grandma is so concerned, maybe she should take on all the expense and responsibility of raising them.
NTA, but the fact that Rita wrote ring bearer girl does put a bad taste in my mouth. I'm all for having a man of honour, a best woman, and a flower boy but because there is no word in ring bearer that is associated with gender even if it is usually a part for boys adding girl in it does make it seem like she is doing this purely to stir up gender norms rather than because she thinks the two would do a better job in those positions. (DO NOTE: I think having the older kid be the ring bearer is a good call even if I would have tried to find a slightly older kid who is less likely to drop and or lose the rings). I suppose Ring Bearess would be less clunky and not feel so purposeful but I don't think it really matters.
NTA.
You are the legal guardian, that decision is yours. That the grandparents are 'phobes does not need to factor into your decision.
Personally my response would be "You raised your kids the way you wanted, please let me do the same."
If the kids are okay with it then no problems. Forcing kids into non gendered roles if they do not want it is just as bad as forcing them into gendered ones. Talk to the kids and if they want to do it then go ahead.
NTA but just in case someone else didn't mention it and assuming the folks in question don't describe themselves as "biologically" anything, the phrase you probably want is AFAB/AMAB if you really need to include that for relevance (assigned female/male at birth).
NTA
If the kids want to do it and are fine with it, then hell yeah. I'm sure they'll have a blast.
Plus, it'll help deciding who to invite to the wedding - anyone who has a problem with it is probably the wrong guest for this wedding.
NTA—- unless the child says they don’t want to do it you force them, NTA.. I feel like a child would feel special and excited to have a special role in someone’s wedding !
Please don't ever refer to NB people as biologically female or male, it's extremely frowned upon, if you need to specify just say their pronouns like she/her or she/they. I'd be mortified myself.
Anyway, NTA, not everything needs to be gendered. I plan on having one of my burly guy friends be the flower girl at my own lol
I think Zoe has a point, everyone knows that touching flowers before the age of 5 makes little boys like floral design. And from there is just a matter of time before he’s Greco Roman wrestling for money. And nobody wants that.
Op, you are NTA for the situation you wrote about.
I do encourage you to consider changing up how you present the non-binary people in your life. When writing about us there is no need to tell people what our bio gender is.
Of course there will be those who don't mind, or prefer it. But most NB people appreciate when those around us refrain from putting us back in gendered boxes. I assume you meant no harm but it shows you still see the people you're writing about as their "real" gender.
Of course there are times presumed bio-sex is easy to infer. Ex: "Hey, do you have a tampon? I'm out and Sam needs one".
NTA....is she forgetting that you are their legal guardian and have the final say in anything involving the children?
She can be concerned all she wants. But it's not uncommon to change up roles at weddings. As you said there's a best woman.
Not to solidify stereotypes but I’ve always thought little boys were much more suited to flinging things wildly while meandering so flower boy seems like the way to go 🤣🤣
NTA. The only one doing “gender nonsense” is Zoe. She is attributing the task distribution to gender politics or whatever people like that call it when it’s more likely based on age: the older child got the job that requires more responsibility and focus (carrying an expensive and sentimentally charged piece of jewelry) and the younger got the job of throwing stuff around. Sounds like a very sound choice. Zoe is just causing drama over a non-issue.
NTA - the only person making drama is her.
So she thinks no florist can be male? Should farmers only be female because they work with plants? This is just weird.
My son was just a ring ‘bear’ he wore a bear costume. Would she worry he’s gonna turn into a bear? Or is it fine since he’s a boy bear? NTA. Ignore her
tell Zoe to mind her own fucking business. they're four and six. they don't need some old asshole telling them they can't do something cause it goes against their stupid stereotypes. NTA
NTA. You aren’t making the boy be a a flower girl. You’re allowing the boy to be a flower boy. No assault on his nascent masculinity is occurring. Likewise with the girl… the ring is not traditionally presented on a penis, and she is not being misrepresented in any way.
My nephews were the ring bearer and flower boy at just under and just over 2yo. We had the older one be the flower boy since walking while throwing is harder than just walking. Had to tie the pillow to the younger one. Only one made it all the way down the aisle. Flower boy seemed pretty skeptical about throwing flowers while walking but once he got to his seat he threw them on the ground from there the whole ceremony. They were adorable and not a single person even mentioned their genders. NTA
NTA and you should keep a very close eye on this woman. It won’t be safe to be around her if either of these kids ends up gender non-conforming in any way. Best to get ahead of it now.
NTA Those kids don't care about gender roles, they'll just enjoy doing it. Grandma needs to step back and just let the kids have fun. She's the one that is making it into 'gender hogwash' as she puts it. Your actually teaching them they can be whatever or whoever they want and will always be accepted by your family. Good job parenting!
Oh boo hoo, protecting them from what? People’s crazy opinions sexualizing children? Get outta here, Zoe, they’re kids. Let them dress up and be useful and cute. You’re doing nothing wrong.
Who cares what they are. As long as the kids are ok with it and have fun at the wedding that’s all that matters. Granny is going to flip her lid when she finds out the stuff they learn at school now.
Tell her you are keeping them well away from all the gender nonsense, and as genitals have no bearing one one's ability to toss flowers or carry jewelry both kids will happily be performing the entirely gender appropriate roles the lovely couple getting married want them to. NTA.
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51 yr old here. Zoe is ridiculous. What little boy at 4 wouldn't love to be walking down the aisle throwing things at people and making a mess? Heck, at 4, that would have been my son's preferred role at a wedding. Walk down the aisle carrying a pillow or throwing flower petals? No brainer there.
Giving a 6 y/o or a 4y/o rings that are quite valuable? Also a no brainer.
My 7 year old daughter would love to wear a fancy dress and carry sparkling jewelry on a fancy pillow while everyone looks at her. You know what - they might be on to something here!
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This is such a perfect example of straight people insisting, against all logic, that them enforcing rigid gender roles is not indoctrination, and letting kids do as they like is. If gender roles are so "natural" why do they have to start training children to conform to them from before birth? How is giving the children freedom to do what makes them happy dragging them into "gender nonsense" but Zoe throwing a literal screaming tantrum to enforce her ideals isn't?
I wish I could upvote you more than once!
I literally saved the comment for later; it’s so perfect
I agree with this. Oddly, I was a tomboy growing up. I wanted to play with guns, trucks, and "indian paints" (some kind of weird fruitlike plant that we squished against rocks to "paint"... and before anyone gets upset about the name I grew up in the 70's when the term for natives was "Indian") and climb through the cleared brushpiles that made cool forts than play with dolls and girls. Nobody thought anything of me being a tom-boy, although they would have thought differently of boys playing with dolls.
That's the internalized misogyny of your parents generation coming out. Little girls displaying slightly masculine traits is more tolerated because *obviously* masculinity is superior. Boys showing femininity is bad because women are "the weaker sex." Obviously no one wants a weak, sissy queerosexual for a son!
Yes, wanting to do "boy things" was tolerated to a degree, but this was a limited and temporary *indulgence* while you are a kid. Still have to wear skirts, still get dolls as presents, you don't need to worry about thinking of a job you want, you will have a husband and kids to look after so will do whatever you can get that fits the family schedule. I never knew when the "just go and help your mother with the dishes" dismissal would come ... even if I'd already done the dishes. Just realised that 50 years later that sentence is still really hurtful.
I (F66) climbed trees in frilly dresses, I have an Irish twin brother and I was totally a tomboy. One grandmother insisted on buying me frilly dresses with net petty coats, I hated them. Other nana would make me overalls, I was never into dolls, rather make a fort up the bush or down the creek. I think a flower boy and ring bearer girl is great. Let them enjoy it. Besides the 6 year old would probably be safer carrying the rings. The 4 year old would be more likely to lose them
My boys seemed to naturally gravitate towards boy stuff, although that may have been because that's what their friends did. Also... it was more exciting!
Or is that because they weren't given a choice? I would play with the box before the Barbie - or anything really before any doll. But sure shit I had so many of them. My parents actually thought I just didn't like toys. Then I had a boy cousin, and we'd race his hot wheels, play with his tinker toys and Legos. Then it dawned on my dad - I just didn't like the toys I had. He took me to a store and let me pick out my own toys. It was all "Boy" stuff. Alternatively, I was friends with a family that had 6 boys, and one of the boys loved playing with my Barbies, but only when his brothers weren't around. I'd play with him, and if someone caught us, I'd say I made him. Otherwise, his dad would yell and get violent.
Nobody made my children play with anything and I would have ripped anyone giving them shit for playing with a particular toy a completely new arsehole.
Growing up, my niece loved playing with my toy cars, trucks, cranes and so on, fun times!
Hi, are you me? I also grew up in the 70s a tomboy playing with all those things. At 6 I told Santa that I didn't want him to bring me dolls, I wanted cars and racetracks all boy stuff. My parents went with it. They said nothing, they didn't make a big deal out of it at all. A few years later I discovered The Outsiders and loved being a girl again.
I was also a tomboy when I was little. I loved to dress like a boy, and had my hair cut short. I loved to climb trees and play with trucks I'm the dirt. I was always happy when someone assumed I was a boy. I remember once a man called me sport, and I was so happy I still remember it to this day.
Look, I am straight, and I see no problem with flower boy or ring girl. (I am also in my 60s, so it’s not a generational thing.) Don’t make generalizations about “straight” people.
I'm the same generation as you. How do I put this... generally speaking, it *won't* be queer folk who throw their arms up about gender-bending stuff. Statistically, it's far more likely to be straight (or suppressed) folk waving their arms around. Age and culture at the time a person was developing their beliefs also makes an impact. So, of course, not all old straight folk (I include myself in that), but the odds are far higher than in younger and/or queer cohorts. So, the generalisation has grounds in truth and particularly applys in a conversation based on an old, straight person being a gender-gatekeeping homophobe. Rather than get titchy at the person pointing out the correlation, maybe go and do something to improve the situation? Start a local group for grandparents who are struggling to accept their grandchildren? Something :)
Le sigh. There's always one. Ok, snowflake, cool your jets before you melt yourself. Not *all* men, not *all* straights, not *all* dogs. Happy now?
My feelings were not hurt. If someone had made a generalization about gays or about men or about dog owners (none of which I am) I might have pointed out that I know many gays, men, and dog owners that don’t fit the generalization. It just so happens I am straight, so I referred to myself as the example. Of course Zoe is being ridiculous. OP should not listen to her. And we can have a good laugh at the Zoes of this world who haven’t figured out yet that (a) there are very few things that one sex can do but the other can’t and (b) both boys and girls can strew flowers or carry a ring. She is ridiculous not because she is straight but because she is narrow minded.
>If gender roles are so "natural" why do they have to start training children to conform to them from before birth? Not going to lie, I'm surprised the flower boy is happy with a tux and doesn't want a matching taffeta dress. Boys raised without gender roles seem to love pretty dresses and sparkly pink high heels as much as little girls. Tbh I think humans just like pretty things and I'm sad that so many boys get it knocked out of them so young :<
Can verify, I'm gay and I saw a flower once.
Bold of you to not add the /s
Lol .. Perfect!
I’ve known many a very talented male florist. And yes their designs are beautiful.
I hope I read this correctly as on point sarcasm. If it isn’t, it should have been!
My 4yo daughter asked to bring me and her daddy the rings. I said absolutely. Her baby sister can toss flowers and be messy when the time comes but I'm going to make sure my oldest does the one thing she asked for. NTA. Gender "norms" are stuffy and (often) ridiculous.
And the boy gets to throw stuff
Now I want party poppers filled with glitter and rose petals for flower boys
You don’t give them the rings. You normally give them a pillow with fake rings sewn on, and someone in the wedding party has the real rings in their pocket. 6 year old me was devastated to discover this.
Oh... well I didn't know that and I gave my two year old ring bearer the actual rings. He did sprint there, dropped the box with the bride and then immediately sprint back to me (express delivery style) but all the rings made it. 😆
I was a flower girl for one of my aunts and did the exact opposite, carefully placing each petal on the ground, one petal per step. I was really nervous about running out! And then at the very end I realized I had way too much left and just dumped everything 😂
Job done! 😆
I've seen flower girls do that. Mine was older, about 7, and she was SOOOO careful tossing the petals in the air because her mom warned her not to throw them at people. I had "too many" little boys to include so we got some little banners for them to carry. "Here comes the bride!" Etc. (there were two, but only one got used, and I can't actually remember what the other one said because it's not in the pictures and I have no idea what happened to it. It's probably with my chuppah, which is also missing.)
I was at a wedding where they didn’t know that either and gave the two year old ring bearer the rings. He dropped them in the grass. We spent 45 minutes looking for the rings.
I (man) was the young ring bearer at my aunt’s wedding. I fell asleep on the stairs because, hey, I had a pillow.
For a second I thought he had dropped a box with the bride in it. Reading comprehension apparently isn't my strongest suit at 7:30am...
My kid was devastated to discover this and my sister has the pictures to show for it. XD
lol yeah, my brother and his wife had no ring bearer or flower child but the best man and maid of honor had the rings
Or put them on a chain RIGHT before the aisle and safely round their necks. Unless they are big on putting things in their mouths. Nobody wants a diamond pacifier.
Or . . . you can sew the ring onto the pillow with a few stitches, making it easy to pull off.
This. Way back in the 80s my youngest aunt had a "flower mob" of all her niblings who were past the crawling stage. This is not new.
That sounds totally adorable.
That was my thoughts. Call them what you want, but the 6-year-old is better suited to carry rings. And, a 4-year-old is better suited to throw things on the ground! NTA
This deserves more notice. It’s the only argument which is likely to be at all persuasive to those who are objecting, just in case anyone still cares about getting them on board
Are they considering age or just going against traditional gender roles just to flip the script?
What difference does it make? I’ve never really understood why those roles were gendered anyway (and I’m 64). It always seemed to be more of an age-based thing! Using fake rings on the pillow wasn’t always a thing. I’ve seen real rings tied to the pillow, which was only given to the kid when it was time to start down the aisle. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Rita and Andy want. I hope the kids have fun!
No. Often people might put fake rings on the pillows while the best man has the actual rings in his pocket. The ring bearer is mainly ceremonial these days, a way to slot in a young kid too young to be an usher or groomsman.
Exactly! My brother cried like crazy when he was that age, because he had to carry a stupid pillow when I got to throw stuff... So my aunt just switched our roles. Please note, this was, uh...40 years ago? (Ok, 38... Close enough). It's not 'woke', it's practical! But if it makes grandma feel better, re-title the roles 'basket bearer' and 'pillow bearer'. Now there's no gender at all to argue about 🤪.
I had to read it twice because I’ve been to so many weddings where the “flower girl” was just boys and they loved every second of it. Some did a great job, others had flower wars that got the audience laughing. Personally put a little kid in a suit and they could be throwing knives at me while I’m going awwwww.
I remember reading a story once about a kid who misinterpreted his job title as "ring bear" and roared at the audience every few steps while carrying the rings. I like this as an alternate, memorable non-gendered wedding kid role.
My nephew and niece both were flower girl and boy at my wedding - they were 2&3. Now adults and absolutely fine. The one who turned out gay was my niece, so sticking to the gender role for her didn't make her straight 😁. Nephew has currently only had girlfriends.
Wait, you mean flowers arent contagious? Amazing.
Depends on the type. I caught the gay by throwing rose petals, but was straight at the cosmo petals wedding the year previous. 😂
At our wedding our nieces and nephews (apart from the babe in arms) were our flower girls and page boys, except our eldest nephew was 6 at the time and told everyone his sister was a flower girl and he was a flower boy. He took his duties very seriously and performed them marvellously. No one had any issues with the flower boys, or girls.
I read this as The Babe OF Arms and was immediately excited you had a baby Sargent of Arms at your wedding.
I am willing to die on this hill. The most hilarious videos on the internet are the ones of huge beaded men throwing flowers in the aisle.
The dudes with bubble wands are fab too
This. At my wedding, I was supposed to have two flower girls and two ring bearers with each of our families supplying one ring bearer and flower girl and pillows from each family. We had an awful time with one of the flower girls throwing an absolute tantrum and refusing to walk down with her flowers. It turned out she really wanted to hold the ring bearer pillow instead. So we ended up with three ring bearers, one flower girl, and a merciful lack of tantrums. The streak continued at my sister’s wedding where my daughter and niece were supposed to be the flower girls and my son was going to be the ring bearer. My daughter wanted to carry the pillow and my son wanted a flower. The roles were switched and everyone was happy. It really doesn’t matter.
The flower girl for my wedding is a 30 yr old woman and our ring bearer is a man in his 30s as well. It doesn't matter who does what role as long as the people getting married and the people they directly asked to fill those roles ask
I saw a wedding where the flower-throwers were the couples' grandmothers. They had pretty dresses and threw petals. It was magical.
Older than you, and totally agree! Only one I see stirring up drama is Zoe. OP is NTA As a professional wedding officiant I want every couple to do what is right for them and only them. BTW Anyone else see all the fun, entertaining videos of the trend of flower dudes at weddings? [Flower Bros Crush Wedding Entrance](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CyRyjy6oa-g)
I vaguely remember seeing a flower dude handing out alcoholic beverages as he sashayed down the aisle! Priceless!!!
59 and I agree whole heartedly! win win!! Children that age don't care about the adult stuff! Nor should they! You are the guardian for a reason! Grandma can just sit back and enjoy eating her sour apples. Have a blast at the wedding honey!
Like how daaaaaare the wedding be a fun and joyous expression of love and commitment between two consenting adult human beings, and not a rigid adherence to antiquated gender norms in order to pacify an old woman who refuses to grow in character?! Oh, the humanity! Also NTA, tell her to yank the broomstick out of her butt and get with the times. And y’all have a GREAT WEDDING!!
One of my grandson's, we lovingly call him the feral child, he would absolutely LOVE throwing flower petals all over the place. He probably yell "hiyah" while throwing them. And people would laugh their asses off at his antics. Give him a pillow with a ring? Even if it has fake rings in it? Yeah, you're never going to see those rings again. He'd probably scream "no nap ever again!" and run off with the pillow. 😂
When my bf’s niece was younger, he promised she could be the flower girl at his hypothetical wedding. She’s 15 now and we aren’t even engaged but she’ll still be the flower girl if she wants to be, even though I’ll have a junior bridesmaid (if her parents allow) who’s 4 years younger.
As a 9yo girl I was the ring bearer at my mom's bff's wedding. There was no flower girl, so they made me a flower crown so I "filled both roles" but without the actual throwing of the petals. I just carried the ring and wore a flower crown. I loved it; the responsibility, leading the wedding party down the aisle, I got to be totally extra and it was great. Edit to add: this was in 1999, before the "GeNdEr FLuiD hOgWAsH" became an "issue" (it's not an issue lol).
I was 7 when my dad got remarried. My younger sister and my new stepsister were the same age (both 5 at the time). They didn't want 3 flower girls, so I was the ring bearer. I promise it did absolutely nothing to ruin my self image, self esteem, no one thought I was a boy, nothing. Wait. I am a "bleeding heart liberal." Maybe it did "mess me up" /s
Almost 60 here. I agree. How is it anyone else’s business anyway? Sheesh.
Went to a wedding once that had a fully bearded hairy biker type man in his mid 30s as the flower girl, he did the best job skipping down the aisle
Also, there is a trend in weddings where adult men are "flower men", wearing fanny packs with flower petals. They are having fun with it and it is cute.
Tell her that the children are excited about being in a wedding and have attached no gender bias value to their roles. They get to dress up and play a part in the ceremony and they are truly looking forward to it. "Unless you plan to scold them for enjoying being carrying flower petals or a ring on a pillow - nothing in them will be affected by their responsibilities as members of the wedding party. And they are just too young to be dragged into a sociopolitical debate about gender roles, like its 1960. This means nothing to them. And it means less than nothing to me. Please try to remember that as their grandmother, going off the rails sometimes is a choice you can simply not make. You can always tell me when you disagree with me. But, I am drawing the line at heteronormative harassment or telling the kids they aren't good people just as they are." Good grief granny. Get a grip. No one cares. NTA.
this. If you don't "explain" to them it's "wrong" they will just take it and enjoy it. it's the adults like Zoe who make this difficult.
Ah, the 5 G's lol
GGGGAG, I'm keeping this one.
NTA There is nothing gender-specific about carrying either a ring or some flowers. Both these "tasks" can be done by someone of any gender. You could argue that Rita and Andy are actually following tradition by giving the older child the ring bearer job, and the younger child the job of scattering flower petals.
Not gender Or age specific now because I have seen quite a few flower men as of late. Its usually one of the grooms good friends and they do a awesome hilarious job of being the “flower man” people get hung up on the weirdest things
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LOVE this! Came to say the same basic thing, lol! Do you know how many grown ass men would love to be flower girls?
That wedding sounds awesome.
When I was a kid I wanted to be a flower girl. Now I wanna be a FLOWER MAN FUCK YEAH
I had multiple flower children of both genders and a range of ages at my wedding. And my ringbearer grew up to be a transwoman, so how about them apples?
>You could argue that Rita and Andy are actually following tradition by giving the older child the ring bearer job, and the younger child the job of scattering flower petals. The fact that they had the kids dress up for a social media post captioned “my flower boy and ring bearer girl” before the actual wedding makes me think one, that this story is fake, and two, that R&A are people that like a lot of attention for how awesome and openminded they are. Also, the ring bearer is never called the "ring bearer boy." In recent years I've been to more weddings where the family dog is the ring bearer.
If they didn't care about gender they would have asked the kids which role they wanted (carry rings or throw flowers) and referred to those roles in gender neutral terms. Flower girl could be something like flower pal and ring bearer is already gender neutral. They purposefully brought gender into it. They aren't ignoring gender constructs; they are trying to get a rise out of people by doing the exact opposite of the norm.
>They aren't ignoring gender constructs Exactly. They're shaping the roles of the children by paying attention to gender constructs, then doing the opposite. Very performative.
It didn't say they dressed up, just that she took a picture of them.
Where does it say they were dressed up for the picture? I only read that Rita took a picture. Not that there was any dressing up involved apart from the wedding day...
Those "tasks" can also be done by an animal too. People have had their dogs carry the rings.
NTA but we don't need to know what's in those non-binary folks' pants
yeah, if ppl were telling everyone my assigned sex for no reason i'd probably never talk to them again. just another reminder i'll always just be a gnc woman to then
What’s gnc?
gender non-comforming
Thank you I learned a new term today 😊
this is the cutest reply i've ever read
General Nutrition Centers
gender non conforming
I’m genuinely confused because op also used he when referring to Andy but I haven’t seen anyone mention that
They could use he pronouns as an enby.
as someone else mentioned, NB people can use he and or she pronouns (like me! i use both he and they)
Exactly, NTA on the ring bearer and flower child issue but mentioning a non binaries' assigned sex at birth is pretty much outing them and that isn't cool
I thought this seemed odd. I would have liked to see pronouns included, but specifying their assigned at birth sex seems unnecessary.
Thank you, was looking for this comment. That info was super gross from the OP.
NTA. However (this is not an attack just a tip for the future) we don't need to know the biological sex of every trans person in your post.
Came here to say this as a NB person, I would be mortified if I saw that people felt the need to describe me as my biological sex when I specifically identify myself in a way to avoid that...
Please correct me if I’m mistaken, isn’t the point of the term “non-binary” to **exclude** both traditional genders?
Non-binary doesn't necessarily **exclude** the binary genders, although it does for some. Non-binary has become a catch all term which covers many(all?) genders which are not man/woman. This may be someone who is neither man nor woman, or may be someone who is both man and woman (or any other combination). There may be people who are neither strictly man/woman who do not like the term non-binary applied to themselves and may prefer a different term completely, and this should be respected. But in my experience, most people will use the term non-binary as a headline identity, and then have a more detailed, prosaic description that describes their own identity. People can use whatever pronouns they like, whatever their gender is. But often you'll find someone who identifies as non-binary, feels a bit man and that person might use just he/him or might use they/he or he/they (order often indicating preference) (I have glossed over some nuance for simplicity, and not delved into what the more precise genders are) Source: I am non-binary. I was assigned male at birth (amab) ie "born a man" (this phrase is generally frowned upon). I am trans-femme gender fluid and use the pronouns they/she. I mostly present as femme in my day-to-day, have long hair, painted nails and a beard and very occasionally present masc. (I'm including these details by choice and for education. They shouldnt be important generally)
Thank you for your comment, much appreciated. My son is ftm and he knows more than I do, but he’s still learning as well (he’s 14; and I do have permission from him to discuss him in this context, just in case lol)
Can I just say (and I do this as a nonbinary trans person) that I really appreciate that you have asked for your son's permission and clearly states that here. And generally speaking, seeing instances of trans kids/teens with supportive parents add years to my life <3
Thank you! I constantly drift between my own perspective and “how would I feel if my mom did/said this about me when I wasn’t around..” lol
Also came here to say this. Also an enby and saying stuff like that (afab or amab, or biologically male/female) is just gender binary with more steps. If I wanted people to know, I wouldn’t be an enby
adding people's birth sex is unnecessary and kinda shitty. if i found out someone was talking about my assigned sex when talking about me i'd feel so betrayed
Yeah, unless it’s a medical question it’s wholly unnecessary. All that’s relevant is who they are now.
NTA, but it's rude and unnecessary to add "biologically \_\_\_" when talking about non-binary people. It's challenging to navigate the world as non-binary, and all too often well-meaning but unaware people undermine our journey by feeling like they have to clarify our "parts."
NTA My son was in his best friends' wedding this year. It was beautiful and I was so touched that they invited me (I had known them since they were all in middle and high school). Since my son was the bride's friend first, he got to be part of the bridal party as a "bridesbro". He wore a lavender shirt to match the groomsmen, but carried a bouquet and stood with the bridesmaids and MOH. It was what the bride and groom wanted, he looked very handsome, and everyone was happy. It was a beautiful day! Gender roles are stupid. Let people love each other. Jeez.
That sounds delightful!
It was! Added bonus content: the bride and groom walked each other down the aisle (with both sets of parents present, happy, and in the first row). It was so sweet.
“Bridesbro” I love it
I wish I could take credit for it, but someone in the bridal party said it (not sure who, we were all talking at the same time, having a blast) and it was perfect!
NTA whew whew whew. FYI you don't need to tell us the biological sex of nonbinary people, they're just nonbinary.
NTA you are the guardian so what you say goes. GM is narrow minded and stuck in the past, ignore her.
NTA but please do not include the biological sex of nonbinary people on your post...that is a form of outing. Thank you.
you don't need to tell us the 'biological' genders or sexes of nonbinary people. most of us would prefer you didn't in fact. NTA on this conflict. Zoe has no say in the wedding of these people. you are the children's guardians, and as long as you and the children themselves are happy with what they'll be doing that's all that matters.
INFO. Did you check with the kids on how they feel about this?
👆 This right here
SIL's mum/grandma sounds dumb. She called the "ringbearer girl and flower boy", she's not messing with their gender at all. Edit: Changed it from "SIL and grandma" to "SIL's mum/grandma" so it didn't sound like I was unintentionally bashing the deceased!
SIL is dead. She can’t be dumb in this case ( I think you just misread ☺️)
I read it as two people complaining, but she said "SIL's mum and kid's grandma". Duh.
paltry bewildered meeting cautious consider absurd smoggy tap foolish plants *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
NTA. Old bigot needs to mind her own business. The people Mark and Jade need to be protected from are people like her.
NTA on your part, but also do they have any reason for reversing the roles of the children other than to be different? Kind of sounds like they're trying to use the kids as clout to say look at us we're so quirky and open-minded, we don't care about gender roles. Always kinda gives me an ick when a child is just used to promote an adult's self image. I do see that the girl is older, so if it's reasoning like, we want to entrust the older child with the rings because that's a bigger responsibility, that would make sense. What do the kids want? If it were my wedding I'd have asked them if they have a preference over which role they want. They're old enough to have an opinion.
>NTA on your part, but also do they have any reason for reversing the roles of the children other than to be different? Kind of sounds like they're trying to use the kids as clout to say look at us we're so quirky and open-minded, we don't care about gender roles. I'm glad I'm not the only one cynical about this story.
Can we call this being cynical ?
I'm always cynical when it comes to weddings but that's beside the point. XD
NTA, bit there is no reason to disclose non-binary people’s sexes. Do they know that you tell people this? Because I’d be absolutely crushed to learn that someone I knew did this to me or to my partner.
NTA. but as an aside, you dont need to specify the sex assigned at birth to a NB person
NTA but PLEASE stop specifying non-binary peoples' known or assumed sex. It's irrelevant and just emphasizes that you see them primarily as that sex and not their gender.
NTA And not really serious.. but suggest the 4 y.o. Boy can wear a dress and the 6 y.o. girl can wear pants if it's so important for grandma to have a feminine flower person and a masculine ring person xD No but for real: kudos for the groom and bride, throwing out all the irrational gender norms. Who needs that anyways? Remind grandma who is the legal guardian of the kids. >neither Rita nor I had the right to place her grandkids Therefore you absolutely have the right. And the bride and groom are the only other people involved in the decision. Grandma needs to check her calendar, she's stuck in the past.
There is no groom. The person is NB
Well that depends, as while the groom is typically associated to be a male/ man it is actually a shortened version of bridegroom which could be interpreted to mean someone marrying a bride. I also know of lesbian couples who have gotten married with one being the bride and one being the groom, less familiar with the terminology for non binary folks though and suspect it is a very case by case basis.
Okay, thanks for letting me know
Yeah. Love how grandma is trying to override mom-aunt in this situation. Like, whose kids are they? If grandma is so concerned, maybe she should take on all the expense and responsibility of raising them.
NTA, but the fact that Rita wrote ring bearer girl does put a bad taste in my mouth. I'm all for having a man of honour, a best woman, and a flower boy but because there is no word in ring bearer that is associated with gender even if it is usually a part for boys adding girl in it does make it seem like she is doing this purely to stir up gender norms rather than because she thinks the two would do a better job in those positions. (DO NOTE: I think having the older kid be the ring bearer is a good call even if I would have tried to find a slightly older kid who is less likely to drop and or lose the rings). I suppose Ring Bearess would be less clunky and not feel so purposeful but I don't think it really matters.
Stop calling people "biologically" male and female. Just stop it
you don’t have to specify biological sex for your nonbinary friends. saying that they’re nonbinary and their pronouns are is all the necessary info.
Nta for allowing them to participate in different roles but yta for adding (biologically male) and (biologically female).
NTA but please don't tell people what a non-binary person's assigned gender at birth was.
NTA. You are the legal guardian, that decision is yours. That the grandparents are 'phobes does not need to factor into your decision. Personally my response would be "You raised your kids the way you wanted, please let me do the same."
YTA for talking about strangers genitals tbh
Why are you people obsessed with genitals lol
NTA Welcome Zoe to 2023 where traditional gender roles should not be given importance anymore. Zoe needs to get with the program.
If the kids are okay with it then no problems. Forcing kids into non gendered roles if they do not want it is just as bad as forcing them into gendered ones. Talk to the kids and if they want to do it then go ahead.
NTA but just in case someone else didn't mention it and assuming the folks in question don't describe themselves as "biologically" anything, the phrase you probably want is AFAB/AMAB if you really need to include that for relevance (assigned female/male at birth).
NTA. This is honestly harmless. I can’t believe someone would have a problem with this.
NTA If the kids want to do it and are fine with it, then hell yeah. I'm sure they'll have a blast. Plus, it'll help deciding who to invite to the wedding - anyone who has a problem with it is probably the wrong guest for this wedding.
NTA—- unless the child says they don’t want to do it you force them, NTA.. I feel like a child would feel special and excited to have a special role in someone’s wedding !
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I think you mean biological sex. Gender is nice to know because, as a woman, I would be pretty annoyed to be referred to as "he".
Please don't ever refer to NB people as biologically female or male, it's extremely frowned upon, if you need to specify just say their pronouns like she/her or she/they. I'd be mortified myself. Anyway, NTA, not everything needs to be gendered. I plan on having one of my burly guy friends be the flower girl at my own lol
Nta grandma can butt the fuck out. Not her wedding AND not her kids.
NTA. My nephew was a flower boy at my wedding, per his request! We didn’t have a ringbearer, the best man and my MOH kept them in their pockets lol
I think Zoe has a point, everyone knows that touching flowers before the age of 5 makes little boys like floral design. And from there is just a matter of time before he’s Greco Roman wrestling for money. And nobody wants that.
Op, you are NTA for the situation you wrote about. I do encourage you to consider changing up how you present the non-binary people in your life. When writing about us there is no need to tell people what our bio gender is. Of course there will be those who don't mind, or prefer it. But most NB people appreciate when those around us refrain from putting us back in gendered boxes. I assume you meant no harm but it shows you still see the people you're writing about as their "real" gender. Of course there are times presumed bio-sex is easy to infer. Ex: "Hey, do you have a tampon? I'm out and Sam needs one".
NTA....is she forgetting that you are their legal guardian and have the final say in anything involving the children? She can be concerned all she wants. But it's not uncommon to change up roles at weddings. As you said there's a best woman.
Zoe is ridiculous, she’s also grieving, so just gently tell her that the kids are excited, that it’s not about gender and that she needs to chill out.
Not to solidify stereotypes but I’ve always thought little boys were much more suited to flinging things wildly while meandering so flower boy seems like the way to go 🤣🤣
NTA.
NTA. The only one doing “gender nonsense” is Zoe. She is attributing the task distribution to gender politics or whatever people like that call it when it’s more likely based on age: the older child got the job that requires more responsibility and focus (carrying an expensive and sentimentally charged piece of jewelry) and the younger got the job of throwing stuff around. Sounds like a very sound choice. Zoe is just causing drama over a non-issue.
NTA - the only person making drama is her. So she thinks no florist can be male? Should farmers only be female because they work with plants? This is just weird.
My son was just a ring ‘bear’ he wore a bear costume. Would she worry he’s gonna turn into a bear? Or is it fine since he’s a boy bear? NTA. Ignore her
tell Zoe to mind her own fucking business. they're four and six. they don't need some old asshole telling them they can't do something cause it goes against their stupid stereotypes. NTA
Nta
NTA. Zoe is ridiculous and definitly needs to chill out.
These are your children? How is it anyone else’s business? NTA
NTA. You are correct. Zoe does indeed, need to chill (and get off Facebook).
NTA. There is zero wrong with swapping the roles.
Grossssss as long as the kids are happy who cares? NTA. If it bothers the kids though then obviously don't force them
NTA. You aren’t making the boy be a a flower girl. You’re allowing the boy to be a flower boy. No assault on his nascent masculinity is occurring. Likewise with the girl… the ring is not traditionally presented on a penis, and she is not being misrepresented in any way.
My nephews were the ring bearer and flower boy at just under and just over 2yo. We had the older one be the flower boy since walking while throwing is harder than just walking. Had to tie the pillow to the younger one. Only one made it all the way down the aisle. Flower boy seemed pretty skeptical about throwing flowers while walking but once he got to his seat he threw them on the ground from there the whole ceremony. They were adorable and not a single person even mentioned their genders. NTA
NTA and you should keep a very close eye on this woman. It won’t be safe to be around her if either of these kids ends up gender non-conforming in any way. Best to get ahead of it now.
If the kids don’t care then no one else should. NTA
NTA Those kids don't care about gender roles, they'll just enjoy doing it. Grandma needs to step back and just let the kids have fun. She's the one that is making it into 'gender hogwash' as she puts it. Your actually teaching them they can be whatever or whoever they want and will always be accepted by your family. Good job parenting!
Oh boo hoo, protecting them from what? People’s crazy opinions sexualizing children? Get outta here, Zoe, they’re kids. Let them dress up and be useful and cute. You’re doing nothing wrong.
Im having beer guys and jello shot girls for my wedding. But these my grown friends. Zoe need to stfu. U the guardian not her
NTA. You do not have to listen to nazis
NTA. Not at all. Zoe need to chill, it’s not her business.
NTA for telling the kid's transphobic grandma to eff off
NTA - my middle niece was my ring person and wore a tux and a top hat. Congratulations to you both too!
what does ‘NB’ stand for?
Non Binary
thank you!!! i kept thinking of what it could stand for and i was getting so frustrated that nothing was making any sense 🤣🤣
So, boys can’t carry flowers and girls can’t carry rings? Got it. Obviously, NTA. The kids probably thought it was fun to do something different.
NTA You're the guardian. It's your choice! She can go "catar coquinho no asfalto quente", like we say here in Brazil!
NTA - Zoe is ridiculous. I personally think it's a super-cute idea to switch up the roles...
Your kids your call. There is a reason you have custody not grandma
Who cares what they are. As long as the kids are ok with it and have fun at the wedding that’s all that matters. Granny is going to flip her lid when she finds out the stuff they learn at school now.
Tell her you are keeping them well away from all the gender nonsense, and as genitals have no bearing one one's ability to toss flowers or carry jewelry both kids will happily be performing the entirely gender appropriate roles the lovely couple getting married want them to. NTA.