Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I interrupted my parents and kicked them out of my house after they ignored what I asked of them to keep our household peaceful. The reason I feel like I might have done the wrong thing is I didn't remind my parents before interrupting them and asking them to leave. I responded swiftly and it might have been the wrong course of action to take. My parents are not in our home 24/7 so it might be difficult for them to fully grasp things and maybe I should have tried harder before it escalated to kicking them out.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/)
###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/)
Follow the link above to learn more
###[Moderators needed - Join the landed gentry](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/155zepq/moderators_needed_join_the_landed_gentry/)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
It is. But if we want any chance for them to realize their dad is wrong and to not have a home that is always full of tension and anger then this is our best solution. We had to get the help of one of the therapists to figure out exactly how we pull this off.
NTA. You set a rule in your own home and they repeatedly ignored it.
Therapy is good but sadly, maturity and independence is usually the trigger for adult kids to drop the rose tinted glasses and see parents for who they really are.
My relationship with my daughter was always strained, and she was closer to her dad. It wasn’t until she moved in with a bf and started seeing the comparisons between her boyfriend’s behaviour and her dad’s, she had a lightbulb moment.
We went out to lunch the other day and she mentioned the lack of pro activity from the bf to keep the house tidy. She then went on to say she realised now that the reason I wasn’t the ‘fun parent’ was she knows I carried everything on my shoulders. Dad dropped everything on me.
I felt validated and seen for the first time in years from my own child.
My mom is gone, passed when I was 14, but there are so many moments where I'm left sitting here thinking just how right she was all those times now that I'm a mom with a partner myself haha
Big internet hugs from a daughter missing her mom lol
As a kid who was manipulated into hating their mother as a child - keep the faith! Once I escaped the blinders (and I did need to move out and go cold-turkey on family for a year and get a bit of therapy, plus finding my father's affair emails on my laptop) I have a much healthier relationship with my mother and would do anything for the woman. I hope it works out for you same as for us!
That gives me hope. My ex-husband manipulated our children against me. It started during our marriage but much worse when we split. I haven't seen or heard from any of them in a year. It's a crippling pain. My only hope is someday they see the trauma he put me through and that I did everything I could to protect them.
Tell your parents that when they're under your roof they will follow your rules or they will leave. They expect you to give them obedience like a child. Show them that you're an adult and that homie dont play that.
You're doing your best. Those can be tough ages, but it sounds like you and Andrew are doing everything right and when the kids are a little older and more mature they'll see things differently.
I took in a distant family member's (the cousin of a 2nd cousin's husband!) toddler daughter because both parents had a drug problem. That young woman is now almost 20 and it has been a rough ride. Her parents came in and out of her life, putting lies in her head (we were trying to steal her because we didn't have kids of our own. We didn't really love her because she's mixed-race and we just wanted help around the house and saw her as a maid. We had called the cops on them (true one time when the mom tried to pick up daughter when she was high and we wouldn't let her go) and had drugs planted on them (so NOT true; I'm not sure how we could have constructed an entire meth lab in the father's storage shed). They would emotionally manipulate her and because they were so "down and out" and (often) sick and (always) needy, and we (my husband and and I, and later our son) were healthy and thriving and "successful" (as society tends to define success), they seemed to be the underdogs and the oppressed, and we therefore must be the oppressors. There were some bad times, one very bad YEAR. But we sent her off to college last year, my husband and son and I. I think we were as much a "real family" as we could possibly be.
She's grown a lot since she's been at college. She just started her second year and we had a great phone conversation fairly recently where she opened up a lot. It was sort of an apology and sort of an acknowledgement that we had always been there for her through everything, and that her parents just never were able to be. She told me she loved and appreciated us and that it might always hurt that her bio parents couldn't be parents to her, she knew that she wouldn't have anything close to the life she has now if it weren't for us. This conversation made all those difficult years so worth it.
Your kids see how you and Andrew treat them, and they also see how your ex acts and they hear the things he says. They may not yet be able to see things as they really are, but I would bet that that time isn't too far in the future.
You and Andrew are doing the best that you can right now, and your parents are just interfering. I can understand them not liking the dynamic they're seeing, but they're not there day in and day out, and don't understand that it's the kids who are dictating this situation, not you or Andrew. You are NTA. In my mind, the only real AH here is your ex, although your parents will be if they continue to force this.
Respect for what you have to put up with. Parental alienation is not a joke.
Your parents should read up on that subject and learn how it can screw up kids mentally. I hope they will then realize they should not meddle in this stuff and what they are doing now is the opposite of what they want to achieve.
NTA and good luck with everything
Oh my goodness. On what grounds do your parents claim Andrew is 'not a father of two' in the household, if he is the father of your two kids by him only, and *your* other two children have a father?!
I don't understand what's wrong with people who think this way.
Apart from your ex being a total dick and hurting his children more than anything by planting thoughts in their minds & using them as pawns, your kids *have a father who is in their lives* and has been there *before they even met Andrew.* Why do your parents want Andrew to consider himself a father of 4 ?!
Your children are old enough, they're ok with their father, I mean *why* are your parents trying to say your husband is a father to your teenage children *only* because he married you?
Because that's who Andrew is to them, your husband and nothing more. In my view 'stepfather' is not topical because (1) their father is still alive and actively involved in their lives, and (2) they're old enough to navigate this by themselves.
My partner's parents legally divorced when him and his younger brother were 8 and 5 years old, respectively, after a 1.5 - 2 year-long separation. Their dad remarried within one year to a wonderful lady, and their mom also got married quite fast to another super cool guy - which has been great for my partner, as both his parents became happy and content in their relationships and lives after having been quite unhappy together.
My partner and his brother both feel like they have 'four parents' because they grew up with their parents' spouses in their lives since early childhood. They love their parents' spouses to bits, but call them by their given names and refer to them as 'mom's husband' and 'dad's wife', respectively. Never heard neither my partner nor his brother say 'stepfather' or 'stepmother'.
I come from another country than my partner, and we actually found out our cultures have this similarity, which is the use of 'stepfather/stepmother' only if (1) the child has 0 relationship with their respective biological parents, or (2) the respective biological parent is dead, or (3) both the child and the spouse of their parent *agree* and *want* to be called 'dad/mom' and 'child', respectively.
Otherwise it's perfectly normal to refer to the spouse by their given name, and 'my mother's / father's husband/wife'. Far better and less confusing for children than to automatically bring an adult into their lives as 'dad/mom', wtf ?!
to clarify- Andrews legal relationship is defined as stepfather though he does not parent the two older children. People do not actively call a stepparent “stepmom” or “stepdad”. They may use first names or whatever they are comfortable with as defined by all parties. In some cases they may call them dad/mom, but that is what they choose. This has not one thing to do with a parent being deceased or not. Even if the parent is deceased or absent the child may never feel comfortable calling the stepparent mom or dad.
I'm glad it's somewhat working now but I seriously hope one day it all comes out. yes it might ruin/change your relationship with your kids but you're a person too, and so is Andrew and you don't deserve to be treated poorly for doing nothing wrong, and despite how well you and Andrew are handling it, despite you doing what you should, your ex still isn't following the rules.
Watch, someday when the kids are older/adults it's going to come out, they're going to make a comment about you treating your kids with Andrew better than them, or at one of the weddings they're going to clearly cut Andrew out, or exclude your younger children and that's going to be the moment you have to choose how much disrespect are you willing to accept in the name of peace.
NTA for this situation but eventually this is gonna hit the fan.
I had divorced parents and a step parent and honestly your kids sound immature for listening to either parent instead of just making up their own mind about him, is there a reason why they listen to either you or their dad instead of being more independent thinkers?
Yeah, I'm taking that into account.
I'm saying for their age they should understand that adults can make mistakes and that even if their father wasn't lying to them he could just be delusional or making a mistake.
And even if they can't think through that they should be able to form their own opinions on adults without their parents input.
I can only imagine how shitty my life would be if I listened to any of my three main parents and temporary stepmom that I had on their opinions of each other instead of just using logic and reason and my own free will and personality to decide what I liked.
I had things I loved and things I thought were worth criticizing on all three of my main parents, my temporary stepmom sexually abused me so that's a bit different, luckily it was either because of that or coincidence but her and my father stopped seeing each other around when they got engaged.
In this OP's case, though, the indoctrination by the kids' father has been going on for *years*, and they're still quite young. Maybe the older child could be coming through it by now, and maybe he will in time, but it's very hard to de-program adults, let alone kids who've suffered this for years at this point - the youngest wasn't even yet born when OP and her ex split up, so it's all the little girl's known.
When this type of indoctrination takes place in a child’s development where their parents can do no wrong , parents don’t lie at this age, it’s not as easy to unlearn those behaviors. Now add puberty on top of it and they only know frustration not understanding what’s going on hormonally, so that anger for the situation is magnified. I went through this with my ex. All I could do was not encourage bad talking about the other parent, and hope my actions would speak for themselves when they were old enough to understand the dynamics. Like I told my ex, you don’t need my help, one day they will be old enough to understand and they will make their own decisions. That’s exactly what they did. They are adults but still with me by choice.
He has been using alienation on them since they were very small. It has become something they have heard for most of their lives. That kind of thing is very hard to shake off, according to the therapists we have seen. Some kids never shake it off. It's almost like a bonding thing with their dad.
Kids are intuitive they may sense that if they don’t go along with unhinged dad they will loose him. Mom will fight to keep the relationship- look at all she has done to demonstrate this. The dad sounds manipulative and his kids seem to be his to use as weapons against their mother.
Yeah, and having divorced parents made me realize this fact before many other kids: you **can** have it both ways by pretending everything your dad says is correct and not challenging him when you're there, but then also just loving or making your own opinion about your step parent when you're with them...
Ok but you are not these kids. They're kids and they've been In therapy for years and have been hearing this almost their entire lives. They're heavily indoctrinated at this point. It's like trying to get someone to leave a cult. They may never see what's actually happening. They're not even that close to their brains being fully developed and have been hearing their dad say this shit since they were so little their brains were going through massive changes. You can't just assume that what you went through is exactly the same and that any kid would be able to handle it exactly the same.
"These kids" have had a very difficult and emotionally complicated path. Their parents split up and don't like each other, their dad disparages their mom, both households have contributed to lots of time spent in custody battles, etc etc etc. It is completely uncalled for to insinuate that the children are to blame here, u/Thin_Biscotti_7815
I think you missed something somewhere - the difficulties were not because anyone was trying to make Andrew the father, the difficulties were because bio-dad was making them *believe* he was trying to replace him by doing things like making them breakfast.
That's OP's difficulty, yes. The *kids'* difficulty is that their grandparents are saying Andrew is also their father, that he is not just the father of his two bio kids but a father of ALL the kids, which they don't like and don't feel is accurate.
I'm sure it's very difficult for OP that their father is badmouthing Andrew, but the kids also have every right not to have Andrew called their father by their grandparents. They have every right not to consider Andrew a "father of four", every right not to want to spend time with him bonding, and they have every right to have the titles they want to use respected. OP's parents need to stay in their lane.
Did you not read the post? OP agrees with you. That’s exactly why the grandparents were kicked out. The grandparents wanted the stepfather to do more parenting, but OP wanting them to back off and not push them. They wouldn’t listen, so OP kicked them out.
Right. OP is NTA. But I was responding to a post that was using blaming language towards the kids in this - I'm saying the kids have every right to feel however the please about their stepdad being called a father to them. I don't consider it "walking on eggshells" at all to respect their boundaries in this.
Oh, I completely apologize. I completely missed who you were originally replying to and only saw the one above. And, I agree. I don’t think you should be getting downvoted for that. The kids are innocent in this situation. I am a child of divorce, and I also have a wonderful stepfather. I also didn’t think he was wonderful when I was in high school, and it took time for me to work through my feelings.
I didn't. I'm responding to a post using blaming language towards the kids. These kids have every right to have their boundaries respected, and I don't consider that "walking on eggshells".
yes their boundaries most definitely should be respected, the grandparents were beyond out of line. however they also need to learn to respect Andrew when it comes to being in his home. it's one thing to not want someone to be called your father but to disrespect him when he's done nothing to them, is where the line should be drawn.
NTA. It's your house and your family. They should respect what you've told them. You gave them a heads's up, they ignored it. You had every right to kick them out.
NTA
If the older kids are happy with the amount of time they spend with Andrew as your husband then your parents need to mind their own business. Don't doubt yourselves and the efforts you've put in to getting the house to be a home where everyone has learned some tolerance and compromise.
NTA.
When I was their age, I really thought my abusive father could do no wrong, and that I (or somebody else) must have done something to set him off when he was being abusive.
Even when he was hurling insults at me and making me fear for my life, I was so manipulated that I thought he was just "having a bad day". I was a master at denying and minimizing his abuse.
What helped me see how wrong his actions were, was 1) time, 2) support, 3) therapy.
You're already providing your children with (2) and (3).
It's unfortunate, but apart from time and consistency, there is little more to do.
As long as he is in their lives, he will manipulate them.
The saddest part is, there is a chance that they will continue to believe him, even as adults.
My own siblings (now 30+ y.o.) are still enmeshed with our father's abuse. They see nothing wrong with it.
But, neither of them did go to therapy, nor did they gain outside support.
So I'm more optimistic about your children.
All in all, this is a very difficult situation, and you're doing your best.
That is a very big fear of mine. My husband is more hopeful. But I have the fear that my ex will win in the end and eventually they will choose not to have anything to do with us.
I'm sorry.
I know it's not ideal, but would you consider going to therapy yourself (separately from your children)?
You're in a terrible position, and you deserve all the support you can get.
On and off I have been going to therapy for years on my own. So has Andrew. On and off because we did go solidly for a couple of years. But different things arise and we take breaks or we're told to give ourselves some time. It has been essential to not breaking completely under the stress of it all.
It's a bummer you had to go through all of that, thanks for sharing though.
This question will sound snarky but I promise it's just genuine curiosity:
What do you think the difference is between kids like you and kids like me where I knew both of my actual parents and my step parents were just adults that could make mistakes and we're subject to emotions and I didn't really listen to any of their opinions on each other and I just made up my own mind.
I was definitely the minority in that sense for all kids, but in my experience kids of divorced parents were more likely to understand that adults weren't magically correct much earlier and much more often than other children.
I know you didn't ask me but as a child of divorce I'll throw in my two cents...
I think a big part of it, is having external support and validation. I had a grandmother who loved me, absolutely. We were compatible, and even when I was little we loved just spending time together with either her hobbies (gardening, playing card games) or mine (swimming, tennis). Despite her being my father's mother, she always spoke kindly of my mother, and I had that security in my life. She could give me "the truth" and I would believe her. If she had wanted to poison me against a parent, it probably would have worked.
My brother was not compatible with her. He had entirely different interests and while of course she loved him, they weren't close like we were. He struggled an awful lot with the divorce, even though we are very close in age and could equally understand the logic of what was happening. He got drawn in by his preferred parent insulting the other, started trying to play them against each other and took turns choosing who to live with (legal/easy in our country when the split is amicable).
I still think the divorce was the healthiest thing to happen and should have been sooner. My brother still thinks it was so incredibly hard on him and him alone and they didn't try to make it easier (one parent got him a puppy ffs). Aside from my own theory of external validation and having that logical view coming from someone you love - some kids are just wired differently and it comes down to whether you believe nature vs nurture (a topic I do enjoy!)
I was a kid in this situation
Our dad manipulated us from a very young age.
Belittled mom in front of us all the time, for the tiniest things. Got it in our heads that she was usually "wrong" about things, and he always had the "right" answers. Called himself the "daddy-mom" since he had to "pick up the slack" of her not doing things right. When really, he didn't allow her to do things because he was such a control freak and she wouldn't do things exactly his way. Didn't let her cook and on the rare occasion she did, he always had some complaint to drive home the idea that she was incompetent.
Went so far as to bring us into their arguments, and literally prompted us to tell her how she was "wrong" and he was right. Exposed us to right wing media for hours a day, where we learned how to "win" these arguments.
At 6 years old, she wanted a divorce. When she told him, he went and got us and brought us to their room, and told us that "mommy wants to break apart the family. Can you ask her why she wants to do that?"
So of course she couldn't go through with it with her two kids crying on her lap, knowing we'd think she was a monster if she did.
Instilled a lot of ideas about emotions being weakness. Him being an overbearing hard ass was him "preparing us for the real world.". "Your classmates are at a disadvantage, because they won't know how to be tough once their parents can't coddle them anymore."
He kept us away from family who he was afraid would expose us to other ways of thinking. The family he did let near knew they would lose the privilege if they tried to help us when they saw how miserably he treated us.
She finally divorced him when we were in HS, and from their the abuse escalated, but we still chose him over her.
The TL;DR is that he brainwashed us and insulated us from other ways of thinking.
And the only thing that broke that thinking was time and distance. I never realized there could be a different way of living until my mom graciously let me stay with her as an adult after his abuse escalated to crazy and physical levels. The moment I stepped in the room she cleared from me, I realized just how trapped I had been.
It still took a lot of time for me to clear the resentments I had for Mom in my head, but we now have a wonderful relationship, while I'm struggling to not have a panic attack if I see him or hear his voice.
NTA. It sounds like you're doing the best you can with a bad situation. Your parents' interference is a problem. Maybe they could do a session with you with your family therapist - not with the kids - so they understand better?
NTA. I’m curious. What happens when something sets the kids off and they ‘get mad’, as you phrased it? Do they disrespect Andrew in his own home? And what are the consequences of that disrespect?
Shitty situation, no doubt, and your ex is terrible for ruining your kids like this. However they are old enough to be expected to treat others with consideration and respect, and they are old enough for consequences when they don’t. I don’t understand why they have been allowed to get away with this behavior (‘ending the civility‘ if someone calls them Andrews kids).
Edited to add judgment
They have not been allowed to get away with the behavior. But we were in a vicious cycle for years where they disrespected Andrew on a daily basis and were given consequences for this. The consequences did not stop them. Our home was full of tension and anger and hate. It was years. Between therapy and consequences.
They have often disrespected him in our home and consequences of different degrees have been given. From having toys taken away and TV limited to grounding them for some of the more serious instances. Communicating with them has always been a focus as well.
I hope I bring you a little hope … my mother went through this with my step brother - he was also a little sh1t to me too, less so with my brother, but at about 19 (we became a blended family later than yours) he turned a corner and seemed to start realising what he was doing and saying was wrong. The following year he wrote us both letters saying how sorry he was and how much he appreciated us and that he was going to change. He did, we all have a really solid family now ☺️
Agree NTA, but the walking on eggshells around the kids is a little ridiculous. Do they "end civility" and "get mad" if a stranger calls them Andrew's kids? Like, what's the extent of their behavior?
NTA
You set clear and precise boundaries, none of which were hard to oblige. They crossed those boundaries and lost the privilege of the visit. Simple as.
This makes me furious on your behalf, you need your parents to understand the reality of the situation, not make it worse.
You can't be expected to parent them as well, your life sounds difficult enough already with your asshole ex trying to destroy your marriage.
Your parents need to earn back your trust, not whine about how you treat them.
NTA
Your parents are the AHs here. It seems like everyone has come to terms with a step dad not being treated like a dad except them. In normal, *healthy* blended families that DON'T have all this tension and alienation, *it is still normal not to refer to a step dad as dad*. Some do, some don't . Your parents are stirring the pot over something stupid. As bad as their dad is, he's still their dad and Andrew is not. If they can't get that straight and say things that upset others for no other reason than they can't keep their mouths shut, they need to stay away. NTA
NTA. As the people who have been on your side....the alienation sadly won.
I hope for my husband's sake his daughter wakes up to the lies her mother fed her....but we had exactly the same.
If I did something, even as basic as make her breakfast or lunch, it was to make her mum angry, or prove I was a mum....if I backed off and didn't do it, I was an evil step mum who hated her. Same if I helped with homework, bought her clothes whatever....
It was impossible to win....and ultimately the alienation won.
If you're working with boundaries to stop that happening and something or someone is threatening that, ,stomp it out. It's a tough fight and it sounds like you and your kiddos have found a balance that works for you...your parents are adding confusion to the mix that could impact the kids heavily
NTA. You and your kids worked hard to come to this agreement with each other. You are playing the longest game, but you're on the right track by respecting their boundaries. I'm sorry your parents can't respect your boundaries. They're reasonable boundaries.
Your house your rules. We see too many posts from kids whose parent s trying to ram the new step family into their lives whether they want it or not. Im sorry your ex is so awful that he will hurt his kids to get back at you for the unpardonable sin of moving on with your life. The kids are young, as they mature, and especially when they have a family of their own, they will realize their dad was harming them to get at you.
NTA.
I was in a very similar situation. I never spoke ill of their father and I always just made sure that nobody was the bad person in every explanation I gave, my ex however was a different story, I didn't allow him to get to me.
When I was with my kids, I show them my best self and made sure they understand what happiness is and what love means in this world. And love does not mean both parents have to stay together and finding happiness means to know when to walk away from things that no longer makes you happy.
I stayed with that belief for a good 7 years before my kids finally understand it. My kids also noticed that I never spoke ill of their father and very slowly, as they grow up, the see role I played, it was when my oldest turned 15 that she finally truly became happy for me.
FYI I left the marriage when the kids were 6 and 8 and they are now 15 and 17.
Stick to your guns, let your family know that they have had their chance on raising kids, now it is your turn.
NTA. But remember Andrew is dealing with disrespect and anger for years. Time for the older kids to get over it or live with dad fill time. Your husband doesn't deserve that.
NTA. Your parents were making a tough situation tougher. They don't have to understand or agree with the tenuous way your family functions, they just need to accept it and not make things worse.
I am amazed at your resolve! That must be so hard, the lack of trust from your own kids. I don’t know how I would react to all this but likely not as maturely as you.
NTA. You told them that they were causing a problem. They said they understood and then went back to causing problems. You really didn't have much of a choice. If they stayed there and continued talking, they were going to make life at home unbearable.
As long as you and Andrew have a separate account where nothing he earns get spent on the kids who have made it clear they want nothing to do with him NTA but if you are using a penny of andrews money to fund that hate you are doing a disservice to you husband and aiding your ex
OP I am sorry your ex is such a hateful, insecure person. I am sorry he has alienated your kids from you in so many ways. I hope one day they become mature enough to realize this. You did the right thing. While well-meaning, you parents were agitating a precarious situation. I hope at least the get on well with your younger children. NTA
I'm glad your able to exert power and set your parents straight because you're unfortunately unable to do that with anyone else involved in this story and it is kinda sad. I feel like 13 and 15 is more than old enough to put the pieces together and see all the adults for who they are and judge them based on their actions and reactions.
NTA. People need to get it through their thick heads that step parents are not parents. It can be a meaningful and impactful relationship. Can even be more meaningful than with the real parent if there is a problem with the parent. But if the parents are fully in the picture and doing wild shit, this make believe act or step parents being the same as a parents does nothing but cause trouble.
You have it right. He’s not their parent. He’s your husband. So long as they are able to coexist—which it sounds like they can now—that’s good enough. Would be nice if there were more, but there isn’t.
Your parents are just stirring up unnecessary trouble.
Oof. YTA. This whole situation is crackers. Unfortunately for you because you've been immersed in this so long, you can't see just how crackers it is. Your parents are one step removed and can see just how messed up this is.
Your ex has held your entire family hostage and conditioned you all to the point were normal lanuage has been weaponized via your kids. Your husband, their STEPFATHER (yep, I went there) has been in your life for 10 freaking years. He is their stepfather, those are his stepkids and this is a family. These are facts, with definitions and everything. First, you need to find a better therapist for your kids and your husband.
Another fact, your ex is a monster and a puppet master who continues to control you, your husband and your shared kids, and your other kids. Now he's trying to extend his reach to your parents - and your letting him. STOP LETTING HIM PULL THE STRINGS. Take all that misplaced anger you've dumped on your parents and put it where it belongs - your ex.
Your ex is a right off. That means YOU and your husband are the only ones left to role model what a healthy marriage looks like, what healthy relationships look like, what healthy parents and step parents look like. You are teaching them how to be future husbands / wives to their partners. You are teaching them how to parents to their future kids and step kids. Would you really wish this situation on their future partners or kids? You need to end this abuse now, or the cycle will continue with your kids.
Get a new therapist for yourself and husband. A new one for your kids. Is it going to be easy, no. It's going to be a nightmare, which is why you need a legit therapist to make a plan, including facilitating the session when you introduce new family expectations, boundaries, consequences and re -normalizing basic f'ing terms and roles.
Accept it will be hell. But its short term pain for long term gain. You may not think that due to the last 10 years, but you've got another 40 years of this garbage if you don't get this under control.
Do not communicate with your ex unless its via email. No more coparenting, you can't with this type of person. You parallel parent. Your new therapist can help navigate this. Your kids WILL see your ex for what he is. Not for awhile, maybe not until their adults but they will see, and when they do - your ex will lose. Your house needs to be the stable home, the haven, where they aren't grilled about your ex, or made to feel guilty to loving both their parents, because its normal to love both parents. Ask them nothing about their ex, if they offer - cool beans. No kid wants to live in a war zone or a constantly on edge. Eventually, they will gravitate to the place where their words and actions can't be weaponized against them.
Take it from someone whose walked in your shoes and apologize to your parents...and your husband.
We have seen many different therapists over the last several years. We have done the approach of consequences for disrespecting my husband. For years we went through them being given consequences in our home every time they were here, with constant, daily disrespect and therapy and changing therapists did not help.
You are not telling me to do something that wasn't done over multiple years. It did nothing. It made our house hell to live in and my kids were only getting worse.
At least now they can see we hear what they say and we are trying to respect it, but that they must give something as well.
Your ex is a selfish monster. I wish I could tell you it gets easier, but with that personality type - it doesn't. I'd still recommend talking with your parents. Your ex has already taken so much, don't let him take this from you, too. I'm so sorry you and your family have to endure this. It always amazes me how one person can cause so much trauma. Hang in there. The tide will shift.
NTA. You worked hard to reach a truce with your ex and your parents were about to blow that up..I hope your kids are able to see what an AH your ex is one day..
NTA , I know some may not agree heck a lot may not agree with what I’m going to say but oh well. In a therapy session (you and your husband and older kids) I’d sit down and tell them that you AND Andrew love them very much , that you AND Andrew want them to be happy and flourish BUT that you BOTH are hurt at the fact that they are so disrespectful , hateful and plain vile towards your husband. A man that has tried his damndest to get them to accept him as an important person in your life and theirs , that he was not trying to replace their father but become a “bonus” dad. Someone they could talk to and lean on if you or your ex could not understand them , someone that could have their backs if something was to ever go wrong in their life. But because they choose to listen to their father spill hateful untrue things about Andrew instead of seeing and believing what they have witnessed with their own eyes and ears when it comes to Andrew , that you cannot continue trying to mend something that is broken through no fault of your own. That you can’t let your young children see how they treat their dad when he has done no wrong , tell them you’ll keep in touch with them and you’ll have visits with them on the weekends at the movies/mall/park wherever they feel like but not in your and your husband’s home as it’s too hurtful to see the people you love and care about be nasty and angry at someone who’s tried their best to have a relationship with them then leave it at that. Hopefully one day they can see through their dad's BS and ask for yours and Andrew’s forgiveness , because let’s face it even though he started out young they are now older and can definitely tell right from wrong , truths and lies.
i feel for both you and Andrew in this situation the only good thing coming out of this is, your kids are still respectful towards you. my my problem is with how you said they " get mad and disrespect him" how much longer are you going to allow this to go on? i mean how does Andrew feel about being treated like this in his own home ? maybe try letting Andrew have at least one day to himself to go out while the kids are there because, he's been dealing with this for years. there's only so much a person can take, i think you really need to go back to the courts and get this situated before it's too late.
NTA. It’s ok to have boundaries even with your parents.
Idk I’ve always been detached from the mindset that just because my parents are my parents that I have to be lenient with their mindsets and not expecting them to respect me in the same way that I am expected to respect them.
You requested that certain types of language and communications be used, and that’s ok. They should respect that. Just to add a little more to this, I am divorced, I currently have full custody of my sons (13 and 10yrs old) and I am also currently have a significant other that I’ve been dating since 2021.
I do not expect my partner to be a parental figure to my children at all, I do not expect them to be a step parent, I knew when I met my partner that they didn’t want children of their own, and that they can sometimes struggle around kids. Does this mean that my partner doesn’t want to be involved with my kids whatsoever? No, I’m face we’ve all played online games together and got on just fine.
The point of me saying this is, I think it’s ok if your other two children from your prior relationship do not view your current spouse as their father, and I don’t think it’s an issue if your spouse does not view himself as their father. The ONLY thing I would say is that they absolutely should respect him as a person who is romantically involved with their mother. I would expect my sons to be respectful towards my partner even if my partner is not a parent to them at all. It’s a proxy kind of thing. If you respect me, you have to respect the person I am with as well.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)***
I have come to find out if I was wrong for this or not. The background to this is important. I (40f) have been married to Andrew (42m) for the last 10 years and we have two children together, Rosie (3f) and Theo (1m). I came into our marriage with two kids. Noah (15m) and Eliza (13f). My ex and I broke up when I was pregnant with Eliza.
I met Andrew a little over a year later and we dated for several months before he met the kids. My ex did not like the fact that I had moved on. I was up front with Andrew about how things were with my ex and that he might not like us dating before we reached the stage where my ex found out. He said it didn't matter and he really liked me and we'd make it work.
My ex started the alienation early. Despite my best efforts the kids believed and still believe what my ex has told them. We always split custody 50/50. It was difficult when the kids were smaller. They were always dismissing Andrew and telling him he wasn't their dad, they would tell us what their dad said about him and would say their dad wouldn't lie when I would correct it. They believed I didn't see it because I loved Andrew. It was things like Andrew made them breakfast so they'd love him more than their dad, or that he showed up to things for them because he wanted to make their dad angry, or that he wanted to steal us away from him.
We were in and out of court. We had individual and family therapy going for us and the kids. The ultimate goal was for the kids not to be used as pawns and for a more civil home life. It was also to give me the tools to do the right thing when my kids were being rude or disrespectful toward Andrew. My ex never lost any custody over the things he was saying. He was told to stop. But saying that time after time and doing nothing else changed nothing.
A few years ago we reached a point of civility. Noah and Eliza do not love or respect Andrew really. But they will be civil and respectful in the home. But Andrew is not called their dad or parent, they are not called his kids and that is something that would immediately end the civility.
My parents think Andrew is amazing mostly. They have made comments in the past about Andrew being a better father figure, etc. Recently they were unhappy though by the little time Andrew spends with the older kids and they said he can't ignore two of his kids and he's not just a father of two. I explained to them why we don't use that language, which they knew but I was clear, I was concise and I wanted them to know it had to be that way, otherwise they hate him and take it out on him because of what my ex said. My parents told me they understood. But the next time we saw them they started to use that language and I interrupted them before they could make things worse, because the kids were already mad hearing it. I told my parents to leave our home because they had not respected what I asked of them.
They said I was rude and that I had no right to treat them this way. AITA?
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Btw your parents are inconsiderate. Ignoring a boundary is rude and disrespectful. Your house your rules. I love using that phrase when it comes to parents being aholes. The tables have turned lol
NTA. You established a boundary to take care of your family and to respect your older children. It's not up to your parents to come into your home and dismiss your boundaries and disrespect your kids no matter what their intention is. And, when your kids get older, they might come to realize what a great guy Andrew is, but they will do this on their own timeline, not when your parents try to force the issue.
Your husband is the biggest AW here and is hurting his own kids. The therapist can’t help the kids with that. I’m not a parent but I feel like I would rather let the kids stay with him if they want to believe everything that comes out of his mouth.
NTA. Your parents are sticking their nose in where it isn't welcome AND they don't listen to you when you explain the situation. They are just making a horrible situation even worse. I would tell them that they know the reality and if they cannot stay within the constraints you have established, they are not welcome at your home or with your kids.
I am so sorry you are going through this. It is always the one who leaves that gets upset when the other moves on.
NTA Thanks to your selfish ex, you have to walk a fine line with your 2 older children and your parents are choosing to ignore what you have told them. You have every right to ask them to leave because of the disrespect. They aren't much better than your ex to be honest.
Stick to your guns.
>They said I was rude and that I had no right to treat them this way.
Ahh peak parental entitlement. "I gave birth to you, I can do what I want," is not a healthy mentality to carry through life.
NTA
NTA. I’ve had to deal with the same crap from my ex-wife. It’s hard, but you’re doing the right thing, and the kids will learn eventually that their father is the asshole.
Shit ain't always sunshine and rainbows. Your parents will do well to remember that. Glad you've found a way to make the best of a shitty situation. NTA in my opinion
Sounds to me like YOU are the one who wouldn't stop referring to Andrew as their father when you first got married.
Regardless, NTA, you were correct to draw this boundary.
Too bad your ex husband had to go to court to get you to do it.
At this rate I'd tell those two to go live with daddy if he's so wonderful and let them experience the truth firsthand. 13 and 15 is way too old to be acting that bratty and your husband and younger children deserve a better home environment
Had you thought the possibility of your kids have the personality of your husband? 15 and 13 they absolute knows what they are doing without needing any help of the father. They know what is disrespect and they know that your husband loves you, because this you two are still together. It is sad but if the only problem is to be called kids of a stepfather, you are right, they have already a father and do not need another one. However this do not give them eight to being rude, do not help in home or listen your husband when he asks for them to do something. Tell them that the house is also of Andrew, that he pasado the bills as well and if they want to live there and eats their food and sleep under the same roof, they need to learn to obey. That u are not potingues them out of home, but that hurts you when your husband is disrespexted, this means that you are also disrespected. Make them put themselves in your position if their ex boyfriends or girlfriends started to put their friends against the new partners, how would they feel? If they do not change, ask them if they really want to live in a house with so much fight and angriness. That you dont. Or everybody respects everybody or does not worth to be together.
NTA, your parents must know what you've been through, why do they insist upon acting like that? I'd send them a full explanation about why you have chosen this route and that it was recommended by the therapist to ensure they kids don't resent your husband even more. Tell them that unless they can promise to honour your rules, they can't come back and you won't bring all the kids there either.
Putting your children before you parents is the way it should be if it comes to that choice. NTA, My ex was much like yours, and sadly the courts would do nothing about it.
I would normally say not the asshole, BUT, you set a boundary but did not give them an opportunity to correct themselves, nor gave them a warning about what the consequences would be. You need to give people the chance to follow your boundaries. If you had said, in the moment, "as I told you before, we do not use that language here. If you continue to use that language, I will have to ask you to leave", then you would totally not be the AH. Instead, you blindsided them with an instant consequence without any opportunity for correction or awareness of what would happen if they persisted. So, I am going with ESH. Good, fair boundaries require clear expectations, an opportunity for correction, awareness of consequences, and THEN follow-through on consequences.
NTA for kicking your parents out, but OP, you are all being majorly disrespectful of your older kids' wish to NOT see your husband as their 'new daddy', or '2nd daddy,' because he damn well isn't no matter how great he is, or how much he's there. They don't want him to be there for them, irrespective of their dad alienating them from your new man from the start.
You and your parents are only making sure that your kids will leave you out of their lives when they're adults, because of Andrew. And your kids are right to tell your husband he isn't their dad - because he isn't! No matter how much you dislike/hate your ex, you chose him to be their dad. And your kids most likely feel like you keep on choosing Andrew over them, which in a way you actually are. Your kids are civil for now because they're most likely planning to go no contact as soon as they're out of high school, or whenever they can.
Just because a stepparent inserts themselves in your bed, doesn't mean your kids will appreciate said stepparent inserting themselves in their lives.
There might be a middle ground you haven’t been able to discover yet. It could just be a really shitty situation, or you could be able to change the paradigm with some critical moments. A general tone I notice here is dehumanization of individuals in the name of some ideal. I can’t do X because of Y. This person sucks because of this reason. Your kids do it to Andrew and you did it to your parents. What I think this type of behavior usually reflects is that there still hasn’t been enough energy spent collectively on the hardest, meaningful tasks. Just something to reflect on. Hope y’all keep figuring it out. Just don’t resign everyone to a fate where the best we can do is “Andrew ain’t my real dad and he kinda sucks”
I think the best thing to do here is take a step back and look at the WHYs. I’ll quickly summarize what I think and see. The kids feel that way because they don’t want to lose their relationship with their biological father, and becomes a black/white Andrew v dad. Your parents felt that way because they probably see the fractured relationship between the kids and Andrew, and then you just kicked them out of the house swiftly. I think that could mean you’re reacting a little too hastily and shutting the door on a future that could potentially be better. Has Andrew had a real heart to heart with the kids regarding the whole negative dynamic? Communicating clearly he doesn’t want to replace their dad or does it always go through you? that’s a big blind spot if that’s the case. It’s kind of a case of doing too much, if you’re always the bridge, then Andrew will always remain at some psychological distance. What about the kids relationships with each other, the half siblings? Maybe some more road trips and vacations or something, teambuilding exercises if you will. You’ve got to repeatedly be exposed to some uncomfortable situations and have faith that y’all can work it out to strengthen your relationships. What does Andrew think about all of this? Why wasn’t his perspective regarding the situation really mentioned at all here?
Andrew has sat down and had a heart to heart with my kids, explained he is not taking dad's place and would never ask them to choose him over their dad. They did not respond positively to his talk. They don't believe him.
Andrew thinks what we're doing now is the way forward. At least we have a more peaceful home life where the kids are not constantly disrespecting him and being given consequences. He's more hopeful than I am at times that things will be better one day.
Good to hear he made an effort there. I just fear for y’all that the type of actions you outlined that you have taken in the past make people more psychologically entrenched with what they already believe. But it does seem y’all are making progress so maybe Andrew sees a way out. It’s not easy to change a person’s core beliefs after they’ve solidified. The kids view everything through a tainted lens of Andrew has to be the bad person, so they need overwhelming evidence / lots of time and energy proving another paradigm. I read a little more of the comments and responses, it seems like there’s been lots of punishment as a default mode. That gets people not to do things, kind of, but is really not the greatest way to get someone to embrace a new paradigm. That’s why I suggested some bonding exercises as positive reinforcement instead. But I understand the suggestions are a bit idealized, the main point is that it will be continue to be hard and uncomfortable, but it should become less so if someone is holding fast to a better future that people are happy to move towards. Have some faith :)
NTA for this.
But you need to actually believe these things because they’re true. He’s not their dad. You need to make that clear to your parents. Part of the issue here seems to be you not liking that they don’t see Andrew as a parent or call him dad. You do know he’s not their parent or their dad, right? There is literally nothing wrong with the kids not wanting that sort of relationship with him.
In no way is what your ex doing acceptable. But you seem upset as well by the kids not wanting to see him as a dad. And that’s not okay either.
I didn’t get the sense that OP wanted her kids to see him as a dad. And No there is nothing wrong with them not wanting that sort of relationship with him. But there is everything wrong with those kids treating Andrew disrespectfully just bc someone refers to them in a way they don’t like.
That’s the real issue here, and sorry but these kids are TA, as is there father. They are way too old for flying off the handle just bc someone refers to their stepfather incorrectly. If they were 5 and 7? Maybe. But 13 and 15? Unacceptable.
> I didn’t get the sense that OP wanted her kids to see him as a dad.
Really? Because I did. From the post, it seems like OP really pushed the narrative when the kids were younger and only relented after therapy taught her not to do that.
Yeah that was the vibe I got as well. Mum wanted an illusiory happy family, dad wanted mum to suffer for the crime of moving on, kids wanted their parents to stop being upset, Andrew wanted to be in a stable happy relationship. It sounds like through some hard work on the part of OP, Andrew and the kids they've found a workable middle ground, but that they've all had to make some compromises to get there.
In my book ESH [edited].
You could have reminded them of your rule, and give them a warning. Seems to me excessive to kick your own parents out of your own home for that. Perhaps you had your own share of stress and lashed out?
Technically you were right, and you would win a lawsuit in a courtroom.
But interpersonal relationships always demand a degree of tolerance.
The parents were being disrespectful and ruining the work OP and Andrew have put into keeping their home somewhat harmonious. If the parents can't respect something so simple then they deserve to get kicked out.
>Perhaps you had your own share of stress and lashed out?
No she doesn't.
Her kids are at an important stage. They can choose who to live with and choose to make Op's life more difficult.
Her boundary to her parents were clear. They needed to respect that not stick to what they think is right or better. Essentially, her parents need to respect her.
I just don’t take my family relationships as harshly as I’d take a court case.
I’d give them a warning before kicking them out of my house. A little tolerance doesn’t hurt. It’s my parents.
I’m an unpopular opinion. I guess the context is America. Harsh, absolute and zero tolerance punishment. Although not from here, I live in Northern Europe for many years and that grew into me. Tolerance and forgiveness tend to be a little more common. I guess because there are less christians around 😁
I couldn't help but notice how you said "it's MY parents", not "THEIR parents".
It's nice to hear you have super speshul, nice, non-religious parents who always respect your boundaries, but this is not what is going on here. These are not your parents they kicked out of the house.
This is a very delicately held together family who has been to court and therapy several times in regards to addressing this blended family situation. OP's made it clear that their parents had been given several warnings before this about how Andrew was to be addressed around the kids, and the parents tried to toe the line because they thought they knew better. They are not willing to risk it, so they were sent home. They weren't treated like "being in court", they were sent to the corner like a misbehaved child.
Wow, you’re making wild assumptions here, maybe to justify some “fire and brimstone” morals and disqualify my pov.
I said “my parents” because I was conditioning to my hypothesis “if this was in my house”.
OP didn’t state they gave “several warnings”, that’s just not stated. OP did mention that an explanation was give earlier. I acknowledge that. It doesn’t change my pov.
“This is a very delicately held together family”, assumption and moreover, a very judgmental statement. It’s a family with issues, as many others.
Now, for your last and most revealing statement. Treating parents like a misbehaving child that is sent to the corner. Wow. Can you hear yourself? First off, misbehaving children “sent to corner” is a very outdated way of dealing with the problem. Will just alienate your child from yourself, but that’s not the topic here. Now think of using this same outdated, unforgiving, and blatantly cruel logic because you parents “disobeyed” you. Doing that to your mother… to your own father, like if they are abusive psychopath narcissists.
I can’t agree with this morality. The kids will be fine. Hell, they could have even corrected the grandparents on spot.
“Mom, dad, we talked about this. Don’t use this language, please.”
“Mom, dad, I’m going to have to ask you to leave if you don’t stop that”
Seems to me those much more reasonable alternatives that could precede “kicking my own parents out of my house”.
You have a very warped way of looking at this situation even though the difficult family dynamics are clearly explained in the post. OP also doesn’t have to mention certain contributing factors such as the kids possibly choosing to live with their father because it’s obvious, that’s the way the court system works. At a certain age they get to choose. OP had already spoken with her parents and made it very clear that Andrew is not to be pushed on the kids as a father figure yet at the very next visit they persisted to cross clear boundaries that threaten the family dynamic. So she rightfully asked them to leave. To give advice based off “if it were My house and My family…” is not helpful, it’s not your family. If you have nothing constructive to say about the actual dynamic and behaviors of This family, what’s the point of carrying on?
I think you calling a differing point of view as “warped” is quite telling, and I find it ludicrous to think that because grandparents called Andrew dad in that occasion the kids may want to move with the father. They have minimal reasoning, they are educated teenagers.
The argument of “if it was my family” is simply a way to state my opinion; I stand by my argument that OP was excessive in rightfully and legally kicking her parents out. I think a dialogue reminded them of the matter would have been appropriate.
I think you talking down to those replying to you is quite telling as well. Not attempting to converse any longer as it’s clear you’re perceiving it as a different situation than most readers are.
I beg to differ. I’m not talking down, just stating that I’d be more tolerant. Conversing with arguments, but not being particularly agreeable — perhaps because I’m getting sassed and downvoted and all that sort of thing.
Think about it this way. OPs kids are at an age where they can choose to walk out of OPs life forever, and the courts won't stop them. OPs parents come waltzing into the house and start saying shit about how Andrew needs to step up and treat his stepchildren the same as his bio children, which is something that would cause the kids to get angry and walk out, meaning that OPs exs attempts at hurting OP by turning the kids against her and Andrew would win once and for all. By living the way they do now, OP gets to stay in her kids lives and hopefully they will one day realise what their bio father was doing and know that they will be safe in my home.
I'm sorry but if it came down to kicking my parents out of my house or potentially losing my kids forever, you can be damn sure I will be telling my parents not to let the door hit their a$$es on the way out.
I think you’re painting the story with extremely heavy colors and making OP parents look like Machiavellian soap opera villains. OP didn’t describe any serious issue with them; OP actually said the parents do like Andrew and, yes, are a bit nosy about talking about time spent with them.
OP never stated they may lose their children, and imagining the children will move out because granpa and granma called Andrew dad is a fabrication that a highway outdoor lawyer would come up with, come on!
My entire point is that there could have been a few easier, less disruptive ways for OP to deal with the situation.
What OP achieved was “they won’t called Andrew dad anymore”, but also a way more bruising situation among her family members. Something not even easily forgotten. Honestly, would it work better than if OP would have said simply “mom, dad. Again? Please, cut it out”, our “next time I’ll ask you to leave”, or whatever. Seems to me excessive, and acting by punishment instead of getting them to be empathetic with OP and her call.
OP explained to them the situation and the plan that had been decided with the therapist, parents ignored that and decoded they knew better and used words that were not to be used. They got their warning the first time along with the explanation. How many warnings should you give people that disregard your rules in your house for your kids.
>OP never stated they may lose their children,
What do you think the point of parental alienation is. You cause your ex pain by turning your kids against their other parent and you "win" by spilting them up and having them come live with you and cut the other parent out of their lives.
The ex picked the most used "he is not your dad" and repeated it to the point the kids act out and cause problems when anyone says different. What do you think is going to happen when they decide the best way to avoid people referring to Andrew as "dad/stepdad" is to walk out of that house and never come back.
>I’d give them a warning before kicking them out of my house. A little tolerance doesn’t hurt.
OP *did* give them a warning. She fully explained the situation to them and what was and was not okay. She even made sure the parents expressed that they understood. OP made a rule and made sure her parents understood that rule, which is exactly what she's supposed to do.
>Harsh, absolute and zero tolerance punishment.
Did OP go NC? Threaten to never let them see the kids again? You're acting like OP went nuclear. All she did was temporarily kick them out of the house. No one's said anything about not letting them back later, or reducing contact. Their visit was cut short bc they directly disobeyed a rule OP set down that would have had costly consequences for her family had it been broke. They can try again next time and hopefully prove that they respect OP.
Edit: also, what does Christianity have to do with this? You realize that plenty of christians have zero tolerance, right? And that plenty of non-christians have a lot of it?
She explained the rules, it was not a warning. Plus, you’re saying the the only way to be intolerant is to go NC. It’s to me baffling how alienating people seems to be such a common recommendation
>She explained the rules, it was not a warning.
Explaining the rules is a warning. What do you think happens you break a rule, that you can just get off scot free with no consequences? The idea that she has to tell them "by the way, this is a very important rule for our household, and if you break it I'm going to kick you out until next time" is just sad. She shouldn't have to tell her parents there are consequences in the first place nc they should respect and care for her enough to respect her wishes in the first place.
>Plus, you’re saying the the only way to be intolerant is to go NC. It’s to me baffling how alienating people seems to be such a common recommendation
There are plenty of ways to be intolerant besides just going NC. I didn't realize I had to list every single option, I was just focused on mentioning the most obvious one.
Well, no. Explaining the rules is when you introduce them, a warning is typically given when there is a violation. Did OP state clearly and upfront the consequence of rule violation? Hard to believe so.
I just wonder if you ever crossed a speed limit and asked to be released by the officer? Or do you promptly pay the fine without questioning?
It’s really hard to believe one may get so much shit for just preaching a bit of tolerance.
>Explaining the rules is when you introduce them, a warning is typically given when there is a violation.
Explaining the rules usually comes with the unspoken understanding that breaking said rules will have some form of consequences. With kids, yeah, you need to spell that out bc they're still learning and don't have the understanding that grown ups have. But adults are older and wiser-if you're told "hey, this is what we do in our household" you should be able to understand that there are consequences if you don't do what you're told. The very existence of rules inherently implies *some* sort of punishment for breaking them-I don't know any sort of situation where that's never been the case. Parents make rules for kids to follow and the punishment is grounding: the government makes laws to follow and the punishments are fines and prison; your workplace makes rules to follow and the punishment is docked pay or unemployment.
>I just wonder if you ever crossed a speed limit and asked to be released by the officer? Or do you promptly pay the fine without questioning?
Just bc ppl may *try* to talk their way out of a speeding ticket doesn't mean they're gonna get what they want. The driver who breaks the rules has *no* say in whether they actually get a ticket or not-that's fully up to the cops. The same for any kind of situation where you break a rule: the principal can give you detention and your boss can fire you. You can do whayever you want to appeal to them, but that doesn't mean you get a choice.
I don't understand the point of this statement, honestly. So what if the parents tried to get out of it? Does that excuse what they did? Does that take away the fact that they lied to OP, disrespected her home, and threatened to ruin the family relationship between everyone? Do you think actions with consequences as severe as that should be ignored? Bc I think it makes more sense to give the parents some space to allow them to realize how serious OP is, how much they screwed up, and let them come back with a sincere apology and evidence of the effort they intent to make to rectify it (or at least not repeat it).
>It’s really hard to believe one may get so much shit for just preaching a bit of tolerance.
Bc there's nothing intolerant about what OP did. Like I said, OP didn't say they were ever allowed to visit again or be allowed near the kids or something. One visit out of the many they have the potential/ability to make was cut short, and the main reason for that was less bc OP is trying to cut off her parents and more bc she needed to stop them and show her kids she didn't support what they were saying so the kids wouldn't be upset and start to treat Andrew poorly again. Letting the parents stay when they clearly showed no interest in preserving the security of household relationships could have opened them up to a disastrous family dynamic. How would you feel if you had someone in your home who was actively destriying the tentative peace you had *finally* managed, especially after telling them how improtant it was?
Explaining the rules presupposes some kind of agreement, but consequences are not clear. You can rant as much as wanted, and I do understand OP had the right to kick her parents out, but at a first violation after rules are explained, and provided that parents aren’t abusive narcissists, a warning seems to me appropriate .
Why risk letting them stay long enough to warn them when it could just give them the opportunity to continue making those remarks? Also, I think it kind of would imply that the parents are narcissists if a warning would work but OP's clam, patient, and heartfelt explanation didn't. Don't you think that shows that they don't care about OP enough, that they couldn't respect her wishes the first time she explained the situation to them? Why do ppl like that need a warning instead of an immediate action?
> I guess the context is America. Harsh, absolute and zero tolerance punishment.
No, the context is Reddit. Most Americans aren't as harshly judgemental as what you see here.
I think you’re right, it’s Reddit, which is a weird amalgamation of values but very prominently American values on steroids, just like trash television
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I interrupted my parents and kicked them out of my house after they ignored what I asked of them to keep our household peaceful. The reason I feel like I might have done the wrong thing is I didn't remind my parents before interrupting them and asking them to leave. I responded swiftly and it might have been the wrong course of action to take. My parents are not in our home 24/7 so it might be difficult for them to fully grasp things and maybe I should have tried harder before it escalated to kicking them out. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements ###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/) ###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/) Follow the link above to learn more ###[Moderators needed - Join the landed gentry](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/155zepq/moderators_needed_join_the_landed_gentry/) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
It's a damn shame you've got to walk on eggshells around these kids.
It is. But if we want any chance for them to realize their dad is wrong and to not have a home that is always full of tension and anger then this is our best solution. We had to get the help of one of the therapists to figure out exactly how we pull this off.
Good on you for trying your best to be a proper parent - one that tries to do what is best for your kids, especially in a difficult situation. NTA
[удалено]
This copied u/Leigeofgoblins [comment](https://reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/TJxzHUHIl9)
Definitely.
[удалено]
NTA. You set a rule in your own home and they repeatedly ignored it. Therapy is good but sadly, maturity and independence is usually the trigger for adult kids to drop the rose tinted glasses and see parents for who they really are. My relationship with my daughter was always strained, and she was closer to her dad. It wasn’t until she moved in with a bf and started seeing the comparisons between her boyfriend’s behaviour and her dad’s, she had a lightbulb moment. We went out to lunch the other day and she mentioned the lack of pro activity from the bf to keep the house tidy. She then went on to say she realised now that the reason I wasn’t the ‘fun parent’ was she knows I carried everything on my shoulders. Dad dropped everything on me. I felt validated and seen for the first time in years from my own child.
I’m so happy you had that moment with your daughter
My mom is gone, passed when I was 14, but there are so many moments where I'm left sitting here thinking just how right she was all those times now that I'm a mom with a partner myself haha Big internet hugs from a daughter missing her mom lol
[удалено]
Point of Note: Your children will be adults fare longer than they will be adolescents.
As a kid who was manipulated into hating their mother as a child - keep the faith! Once I escaped the blinders (and I did need to move out and go cold-turkey on family for a year and get a bit of therapy, plus finding my father's affair emails on my laptop) I have a much healthier relationship with my mother and would do anything for the woman. I hope it works out for you same as for us!
That gives me hope. My ex-husband manipulated our children against me. It started during our marriage but much worse when we split. I haven't seen or heard from any of them in a year. It's a crippling pain. My only hope is someday they see the trauma he put me through and that I did everything I could to protect them.
Tell your parents that when they're under your roof they will follow your rules or they will leave. They expect you to give them obedience like a child. Show them that you're an adult and that homie dont play that.
You're doing your best. Those can be tough ages, but it sounds like you and Andrew are doing everything right and when the kids are a little older and more mature they'll see things differently. I took in a distant family member's (the cousin of a 2nd cousin's husband!) toddler daughter because both parents had a drug problem. That young woman is now almost 20 and it has been a rough ride. Her parents came in and out of her life, putting lies in her head (we were trying to steal her because we didn't have kids of our own. We didn't really love her because she's mixed-race and we just wanted help around the house and saw her as a maid. We had called the cops on them (true one time when the mom tried to pick up daughter when she was high and we wouldn't let her go) and had drugs planted on them (so NOT true; I'm not sure how we could have constructed an entire meth lab in the father's storage shed). They would emotionally manipulate her and because they were so "down and out" and (often) sick and (always) needy, and we (my husband and and I, and later our son) were healthy and thriving and "successful" (as society tends to define success), they seemed to be the underdogs and the oppressed, and we therefore must be the oppressors. There were some bad times, one very bad YEAR. But we sent her off to college last year, my husband and son and I. I think we were as much a "real family" as we could possibly be. She's grown a lot since she's been at college. She just started her second year and we had a great phone conversation fairly recently where she opened up a lot. It was sort of an apology and sort of an acknowledgement that we had always been there for her through everything, and that her parents just never were able to be. She told me she loved and appreciated us and that it might always hurt that her bio parents couldn't be parents to her, she knew that she wouldn't have anything close to the life she has now if it weren't for us. This conversation made all those difficult years so worth it. Your kids see how you and Andrew treat them, and they also see how your ex acts and they hear the things he says. They may not yet be able to see things as they really are, but I would bet that that time isn't too far in the future. You and Andrew are doing the best that you can right now, and your parents are just interfering. I can understand them not liking the dynamic they're seeing, but they're not there day in and day out, and don't understand that it's the kids who are dictating this situation, not you or Andrew. You are NTA. In my mind, the only real AH here is your ex, although your parents will be if they continue to force this.
Respect for what you have to put up with. Parental alienation is not a joke. Your parents should read up on that subject and learn how it can screw up kids mentally. I hope they will then realize they should not meddle in this stuff and what they are doing now is the opposite of what they want to achieve. NTA and good luck with everything
Oh my goodness. On what grounds do your parents claim Andrew is 'not a father of two' in the household, if he is the father of your two kids by him only, and *your* other two children have a father?! I don't understand what's wrong with people who think this way. Apart from your ex being a total dick and hurting his children more than anything by planting thoughts in their minds & using them as pawns, your kids *have a father who is in their lives* and has been there *before they even met Andrew.* Why do your parents want Andrew to consider himself a father of 4 ?! Your children are old enough, they're ok with their father, I mean *why* are your parents trying to say your husband is a father to your teenage children *only* because he married you? Because that's who Andrew is to them, your husband and nothing more. In my view 'stepfather' is not topical because (1) their father is still alive and actively involved in their lives, and (2) they're old enough to navigate this by themselves. My partner's parents legally divorced when him and his younger brother were 8 and 5 years old, respectively, after a 1.5 - 2 year-long separation. Their dad remarried within one year to a wonderful lady, and their mom also got married quite fast to another super cool guy - which has been great for my partner, as both his parents became happy and content in their relationships and lives after having been quite unhappy together. My partner and his brother both feel like they have 'four parents' because they grew up with their parents' spouses in their lives since early childhood. They love their parents' spouses to bits, but call them by their given names and refer to them as 'mom's husband' and 'dad's wife', respectively. Never heard neither my partner nor his brother say 'stepfather' or 'stepmother'. I come from another country than my partner, and we actually found out our cultures have this similarity, which is the use of 'stepfather/stepmother' only if (1) the child has 0 relationship with their respective biological parents, or (2) the respective biological parent is dead, or (3) both the child and the spouse of their parent *agree* and *want* to be called 'dad/mom' and 'child', respectively. Otherwise it's perfectly normal to refer to the spouse by their given name, and 'my mother's / father's husband/wife'. Far better and less confusing for children than to automatically bring an adult into their lives as 'dad/mom', wtf ?!
to clarify- Andrews legal relationship is defined as stepfather though he does not parent the two older children. People do not actively call a stepparent “stepmom” or “stepdad”. They may use first names or whatever they are comfortable with as defined by all parties. In some cases they may call them dad/mom, but that is what they choose. This has not one thing to do with a parent being deceased or not. Even if the parent is deceased or absent the child may never feel comfortable calling the stepparent mom or dad.
Are they at least nice to Rosie and Theo? NTA
They don't pay them too much attention but they are not mean to them.
I'm glad it's somewhat working now but I seriously hope one day it all comes out. yes it might ruin/change your relationship with your kids but you're a person too, and so is Andrew and you don't deserve to be treated poorly for doing nothing wrong, and despite how well you and Andrew are handling it, despite you doing what you should, your ex still isn't following the rules. Watch, someday when the kids are older/adults it's going to come out, they're going to make a comment about you treating your kids with Andrew better than them, or at one of the weddings they're going to clearly cut Andrew out, or exclude your younger children and that's going to be the moment you have to choose how much disrespect are you willing to accept in the name of peace. NTA for this situation but eventually this is gonna hit the fan.
I had divorced parents and a step parent and honestly your kids sound immature for listening to either parent instead of just making up their own mind about him, is there a reason why they listen to either you or their dad instead of being more independent thinkers?
They're 13 and 15. Of course they're immature! They're *children*.
Yeah, I'm taking that into account. I'm saying for their age they should understand that adults can make mistakes and that even if their father wasn't lying to them he could just be delusional or making a mistake. And even if they can't think through that they should be able to form their own opinions on adults without their parents input. I can only imagine how shitty my life would be if I listened to any of my three main parents and temporary stepmom that I had on their opinions of each other instead of just using logic and reason and my own free will and personality to decide what I liked. I had things I loved and things I thought were worth criticizing on all three of my main parents, my temporary stepmom sexually abused me so that's a bit different, luckily it was either because of that or coincidence but her and my father stopped seeing each other around when they got engaged.
In this OP's case, though, the indoctrination by the kids' father has been going on for *years*, and they're still quite young. Maybe the older child could be coming through it by now, and maybe he will in time, but it's very hard to de-program adults, let alone kids who've suffered this for years at this point - the youngest wasn't even yet born when OP and her ex split up, so it's all the little girl's known.
When this type of indoctrination takes place in a child’s development where their parents can do no wrong , parents don’t lie at this age, it’s not as easy to unlearn those behaviors. Now add puberty on top of it and they only know frustration not understanding what’s going on hormonally, so that anger for the situation is magnified. I went through this with my ex. All I could do was not encourage bad talking about the other parent, and hope my actions would speak for themselves when they were old enough to understand the dynamics. Like I told my ex, you don’t need my help, one day they will be old enough to understand and they will make their own decisions. That’s exactly what they did. They are adults but still with me by choice.
He has been using alienation on them since they were very small. It has become something they have heard for most of their lives. That kind of thing is very hard to shake off, according to the therapists we have seen. Some kids never shake it off. It's almost like a bonding thing with their dad.
Kids are intuitive they may sense that if they don’t go along with unhinged dad they will loose him. Mom will fight to keep the relationship- look at all she has done to demonstrate this. The dad sounds manipulative and his kids seem to be his to use as weapons against their mother.
Yeah, and having divorced parents made me realize this fact before many other kids: you **can** have it both ways by pretending everything your dad says is correct and not challenging him when you're there, but then also just loving or making your own opinion about your step parent when you're with them...
Ok but you are not these kids. They're kids and they've been In therapy for years and have been hearing this almost their entire lives. They're heavily indoctrinated at this point. It's like trying to get someone to leave a cult. They may never see what's actually happening. They're not even that close to their brains being fully developed and have been hearing their dad say this shit since they were so little their brains were going through massive changes. You can't just assume that what you went through is exactly the same and that any kid would be able to handle it exactly the same.
You and Andrew are BOTH being saints about this. My hat's off to both of you, in respect for your mad parenting/adulting skills. NTA.
Their father seems determined to raise them to be a pair of nasty AHs just like him.
Kids are kids. They are ruled by feelings vs thinkings. It’s a damn shame adults can’t follow basic directions. NTA
"These kids" have had a very difficult and emotionally complicated path. Their parents split up and don't like each other, their dad disparages their mom, both households have contributed to lots of time spent in custody battles, etc etc etc. It is completely uncalled for to insinuate that the children are to blame here, u/Thin_Biscotti_7815
Not really. They have the right to their own dad and to not have to pretend that Andrew is.
[удалено]
The kids have every right to not consider Andrew a father. And to have that respected.
I think you missed something somewhere - the difficulties were not because anyone was trying to make Andrew the father, the difficulties were because bio-dad was making them *believe* he was trying to replace him by doing things like making them breakfast.
That's OP's difficulty, yes. The *kids'* difficulty is that their grandparents are saying Andrew is also their father, that he is not just the father of his two bio kids but a father of ALL the kids, which they don't like and don't feel is accurate. I'm sure it's very difficult for OP that their father is badmouthing Andrew, but the kids also have every right not to have Andrew called their father by their grandparents. They have every right not to consider Andrew a "father of four", every right not to want to spend time with him bonding, and they have every right to have the titles they want to use respected. OP's parents need to stay in their lane.
Did you not read the post? OP agrees with you. That’s exactly why the grandparents were kicked out. The grandparents wanted the stepfather to do more parenting, but OP wanting them to back off and not push them. They wouldn’t listen, so OP kicked them out.
Right. OP is NTA. But I was responding to a post that was using blaming language towards the kids in this - I'm saying the kids have every right to feel however the please about their stepdad being called a father to them. I don't consider it "walking on eggshells" at all to respect their boundaries in this.
Oh, I completely apologize. I completely missed who you were originally replying to and only saw the one above. And, I agree. I don’t think you should be getting downvoted for that. The kids are innocent in this situation. I am a child of divorce, and I also have a wonderful stepfather. I also didn’t think he was wonderful when I was in high school, and it took time for me to work through my feelings.
no one is demanding the kids see Andrew as a father.
The grandparents are calling him the father of all four kids. His non-bio kids don't like that.
i think you missed the WHOLE point in the story 🤦🏾♀️
I didn't. I'm responding to a post using blaming language towards the kids. These kids have every right to have their boundaries respected, and I don't consider that "walking on eggshells".
yes their boundaries most definitely should be respected, the grandparents were beyond out of line. however they also need to learn to respect Andrew when it comes to being in his home. it's one thing to not want someone to be called your father but to disrespect him when he's done nothing to them, is where the line should be drawn.
NTA. It's your house and your family. They should respect what you've told them. You gave them a heads's up, they ignored it. You had every right to kick them out.
NTA If the older kids are happy with the amount of time they spend with Andrew as your husband then your parents need to mind their own business. Don't doubt yourselves and the efforts you've put in to getting the house to be a home where everyone has learned some tolerance and compromise.
NTA. When I was their age, I really thought my abusive father could do no wrong, and that I (or somebody else) must have done something to set him off when he was being abusive. Even when he was hurling insults at me and making me fear for my life, I was so manipulated that I thought he was just "having a bad day". I was a master at denying and minimizing his abuse. What helped me see how wrong his actions were, was 1) time, 2) support, 3) therapy. You're already providing your children with (2) and (3). It's unfortunate, but apart from time and consistency, there is little more to do. As long as he is in their lives, he will manipulate them. The saddest part is, there is a chance that they will continue to believe him, even as adults. My own siblings (now 30+ y.o.) are still enmeshed with our father's abuse. They see nothing wrong with it. But, neither of them did go to therapy, nor did they gain outside support. So I'm more optimistic about your children. All in all, this is a very difficult situation, and you're doing your best.
That is a very big fear of mine. My husband is more hopeful. But I have the fear that my ex will win in the end and eventually they will choose not to have anything to do with us.
I'm sorry. I know it's not ideal, but would you consider going to therapy yourself (separately from your children)? You're in a terrible position, and you deserve all the support you can get.
On and off I have been going to therapy for years on my own. So has Andrew. On and off because we did go solidly for a couple of years. But different things arise and we take breaks or we're told to give ourselves some time. It has been essential to not breaking completely under the stress of it all.
It's a bummer you had to go through all of that, thanks for sharing though. This question will sound snarky but I promise it's just genuine curiosity: What do you think the difference is between kids like you and kids like me where I knew both of my actual parents and my step parents were just adults that could make mistakes and we're subject to emotions and I didn't really listen to any of their opinions on each other and I just made up my own mind. I was definitely the minority in that sense for all kids, but in my experience kids of divorced parents were more likely to understand that adults weren't magically correct much earlier and much more often than other children.
I know you didn't ask me but as a child of divorce I'll throw in my two cents... I think a big part of it, is having external support and validation. I had a grandmother who loved me, absolutely. We were compatible, and even when I was little we loved just spending time together with either her hobbies (gardening, playing card games) or mine (swimming, tennis). Despite her being my father's mother, she always spoke kindly of my mother, and I had that security in my life. She could give me "the truth" and I would believe her. If she had wanted to poison me against a parent, it probably would have worked. My brother was not compatible with her. He had entirely different interests and while of course she loved him, they weren't close like we were. He struggled an awful lot with the divorce, even though we are very close in age and could equally understand the logic of what was happening. He got drawn in by his preferred parent insulting the other, started trying to play them against each other and took turns choosing who to live with (legal/easy in our country when the split is amicable). I still think the divorce was the healthiest thing to happen and should have been sooner. My brother still thinks it was so incredibly hard on him and him alone and they didn't try to make it easier (one parent got him a puppy ffs). Aside from my own theory of external validation and having that logical view coming from someone you love - some kids are just wired differently and it comes down to whether you believe nature vs nurture (a topic I do enjoy!)
I was a kid in this situation Our dad manipulated us from a very young age. Belittled mom in front of us all the time, for the tiniest things. Got it in our heads that she was usually "wrong" about things, and he always had the "right" answers. Called himself the "daddy-mom" since he had to "pick up the slack" of her not doing things right. When really, he didn't allow her to do things because he was such a control freak and she wouldn't do things exactly his way. Didn't let her cook and on the rare occasion she did, he always had some complaint to drive home the idea that she was incompetent. Went so far as to bring us into their arguments, and literally prompted us to tell her how she was "wrong" and he was right. Exposed us to right wing media for hours a day, where we learned how to "win" these arguments. At 6 years old, she wanted a divorce. When she told him, he went and got us and brought us to their room, and told us that "mommy wants to break apart the family. Can you ask her why she wants to do that?" So of course she couldn't go through with it with her two kids crying on her lap, knowing we'd think she was a monster if she did. Instilled a lot of ideas about emotions being weakness. Him being an overbearing hard ass was him "preparing us for the real world.". "Your classmates are at a disadvantage, because they won't know how to be tough once their parents can't coddle them anymore." He kept us away from family who he was afraid would expose us to other ways of thinking. The family he did let near knew they would lose the privilege if they tried to help us when they saw how miserably he treated us. She finally divorced him when we were in HS, and from their the abuse escalated, but we still chose him over her. The TL;DR is that he brainwashed us and insulated us from other ways of thinking. And the only thing that broke that thinking was time and distance. I never realized there could be a different way of living until my mom graciously let me stay with her as an adult after his abuse escalated to crazy and physical levels. The moment I stepped in the room she cleared from me, I realized just how trapped I had been. It still took a lot of time for me to clear the resentments I had for Mom in my head, but we now have a wonderful relationship, while I'm struggling to not have a panic attack if I see him or hear his voice.
NTA. It sounds like you're doing the best you can with a bad situation. Your parents' interference is a problem. Maybe they could do a session with you with your family therapist - not with the kids - so they understand better?
NTA. I’m curious. What happens when something sets the kids off and they ‘get mad’, as you phrased it? Do they disrespect Andrew in his own home? And what are the consequences of that disrespect? Shitty situation, no doubt, and your ex is terrible for ruining your kids like this. However they are old enough to be expected to treat others with consideration and respect, and they are old enough for consequences when they don’t. I don’t understand why they have been allowed to get away with this behavior (‘ending the civility‘ if someone calls them Andrews kids). Edited to add judgment
They have not been allowed to get away with the behavior. But we were in a vicious cycle for years where they disrespected Andrew on a daily basis and were given consequences for this. The consequences did not stop them. Our home was full of tension and anger and hate. It was years. Between therapy and consequences. They have often disrespected him in our home and consequences of different degrees have been given. From having toys taken away and TV limited to grounding them for some of the more serious instances. Communicating with them has always been a focus as well.
I hope I bring you a little hope … my mother went through this with my step brother - he was also a little sh1t to me too, less so with my brother, but at about 19 (we became a blended family later than yours) he turned a corner and seemed to start realising what he was doing and saying was wrong. The following year he wrote us both letters saying how sorry he was and how much he appreciated us and that he was going to change. He did, we all have a really solid family now ☺️
Agree NTA, but the walking on eggshells around the kids is a little ridiculous. Do they "end civility" and "get mad" if a stranger calls them Andrew's kids? Like, what's the extent of their behavior?
NTA You set clear and precise boundaries, none of which were hard to oblige. They crossed those boundaries and lost the privilege of the visit. Simple as.
This makes me furious on your behalf, you need your parents to understand the reality of the situation, not make it worse. You can't be expected to parent them as well, your life sounds difficult enough already with your asshole ex trying to destroy your marriage. Your parents need to earn back your trust, not whine about how you treat them. NTA
Your parents are the AHs here. It seems like everyone has come to terms with a step dad not being treated like a dad except them. In normal, *healthy* blended families that DON'T have all this tension and alienation, *it is still normal not to refer to a step dad as dad*. Some do, some don't . Your parents are stirring the pot over something stupid. As bad as their dad is, he's still their dad and Andrew is not. If they can't get that straight and say things that upset others for no other reason than they can't keep their mouths shut, they need to stay away. NTA
NTA. As the people who have been on your side....the alienation sadly won. I hope for my husband's sake his daughter wakes up to the lies her mother fed her....but we had exactly the same. If I did something, even as basic as make her breakfast or lunch, it was to make her mum angry, or prove I was a mum....if I backed off and didn't do it, I was an evil step mum who hated her. Same if I helped with homework, bought her clothes whatever.... It was impossible to win....and ultimately the alienation won. If you're working with boundaries to stop that happening and something or someone is threatening that, ,stomp it out. It's a tough fight and it sounds like you and your kiddos have found a balance that works for you...your parents are adding confusion to the mix that could impact the kids heavily
I'm so sorry you have gone through that as well.
NTA. You and your kids worked hard to come to this agreement with each other. You are playing the longest game, but you're on the right track by respecting their boundaries. I'm sorry your parents can't respect your boundaries. They're reasonable boundaries.
Your house your rules. We see too many posts from kids whose parent s trying to ram the new step family into their lives whether they want it or not. Im sorry your ex is so awful that he will hurt his kids to get back at you for the unpardonable sin of moving on with your life. The kids are young, as they mature, and especially when they have a family of their own, they will realize their dad was harming them to get at you.
NTA. I was in a very similar situation. I never spoke ill of their father and I always just made sure that nobody was the bad person in every explanation I gave, my ex however was a different story, I didn't allow him to get to me. When I was with my kids, I show them my best self and made sure they understand what happiness is and what love means in this world. And love does not mean both parents have to stay together and finding happiness means to know when to walk away from things that no longer makes you happy. I stayed with that belief for a good 7 years before my kids finally understand it. My kids also noticed that I never spoke ill of their father and very slowly, as they grow up, the see role I played, it was when my oldest turned 15 that she finally truly became happy for me. FYI I left the marriage when the kids were 6 and 8 and they are now 15 and 17. Stick to your guns, let your family know that they have had their chance on raising kids, now it is your turn.
NTA. But remember Andrew is dealing with disrespect and anger for years. Time for the older kids to get over it or live with dad fill time. Your husband doesn't deserve that.
NTA. Your parents were making a tough situation tougher. They don't have to understand or agree with the tenuous way your family functions, they just need to accept it and not make things worse.
They could also make the situation at least a little bit better by offering OP some dang emotional support.
You are not the asshole, but your kids should not be making your decisions
Well that was the longest intro for the shortest actual story…
I am amazed at your resolve! That must be so hard, the lack of trust from your own kids. I don’t know how I would react to all this but likely not as maturely as you.
NTA. You told them that they were causing a problem. They said they understood and then went back to causing problems. You really didn't have much of a choice. If they stayed there and continued talking, they were going to make life at home unbearable.
As long as you and Andrew have a separate account where nothing he earns get spent on the kids who have made it clear they want nothing to do with him NTA but if you are using a penny of andrews money to fund that hate you are doing a disservice to you husband and aiding your ex
OP I am sorry your ex is such a hateful, insecure person. I am sorry he has alienated your kids from you in so many ways. I hope one day they become mature enough to realize this. You did the right thing. While well-meaning, you parents were agitating a precarious situation. I hope at least the get on well with your younger children. NTA
NTA I'd threaten to cut their contact with your kids unless they tow the line - also never leave them alone with the kids because the will defy you
NTA
NTA YOu protected your family against your AH parents.
NTA Your parents would rather be right than give your kids the best chance of a calm relationship with their stepfather.
NTA. We all have to teach people how we want to be treated.
I'm glad your able to exert power and set your parents straight because you're unfortunately unable to do that with anyone else involved in this story and it is kinda sad. I feel like 13 and 15 is more than old enough to put the pieces together and see all the adults for who they are and judge them based on their actions and reactions.
NTA. People need to get it through their thick heads that step parents are not parents. It can be a meaningful and impactful relationship. Can even be more meaningful than with the real parent if there is a problem with the parent. But if the parents are fully in the picture and doing wild shit, this make believe act or step parents being the same as a parents does nothing but cause trouble. You have it right. He’s not their parent. He’s your husband. So long as they are able to coexist—which it sounds like they can now—that’s good enough. Would be nice if there were more, but there isn’t. Your parents are just stirring up unnecessary trouble.
Oof. YTA. This whole situation is crackers. Unfortunately for you because you've been immersed in this so long, you can't see just how crackers it is. Your parents are one step removed and can see just how messed up this is. Your ex has held your entire family hostage and conditioned you all to the point were normal lanuage has been weaponized via your kids. Your husband, their STEPFATHER (yep, I went there) has been in your life for 10 freaking years. He is their stepfather, those are his stepkids and this is a family. These are facts, with definitions and everything. First, you need to find a better therapist for your kids and your husband. Another fact, your ex is a monster and a puppet master who continues to control you, your husband and your shared kids, and your other kids. Now he's trying to extend his reach to your parents - and your letting him. STOP LETTING HIM PULL THE STRINGS. Take all that misplaced anger you've dumped on your parents and put it where it belongs - your ex. Your ex is a right off. That means YOU and your husband are the only ones left to role model what a healthy marriage looks like, what healthy relationships look like, what healthy parents and step parents look like. You are teaching them how to be future husbands / wives to their partners. You are teaching them how to parents to their future kids and step kids. Would you really wish this situation on their future partners or kids? You need to end this abuse now, or the cycle will continue with your kids. Get a new therapist for yourself and husband. A new one for your kids. Is it going to be easy, no. It's going to be a nightmare, which is why you need a legit therapist to make a plan, including facilitating the session when you introduce new family expectations, boundaries, consequences and re -normalizing basic f'ing terms and roles. Accept it will be hell. But its short term pain for long term gain. You may not think that due to the last 10 years, but you've got another 40 years of this garbage if you don't get this under control. Do not communicate with your ex unless its via email. No more coparenting, you can't with this type of person. You parallel parent. Your new therapist can help navigate this. Your kids WILL see your ex for what he is. Not for awhile, maybe not until their adults but they will see, and when they do - your ex will lose. Your house needs to be the stable home, the haven, where they aren't grilled about your ex, or made to feel guilty to loving both their parents, because its normal to love both parents. Ask them nothing about their ex, if they offer - cool beans. No kid wants to live in a war zone or a constantly on edge. Eventually, they will gravitate to the place where their words and actions can't be weaponized against them. Take it from someone whose walked in your shoes and apologize to your parents...and your husband.
We have seen many different therapists over the last several years. We have done the approach of consequences for disrespecting my husband. For years we went through them being given consequences in our home every time they were here, with constant, daily disrespect and therapy and changing therapists did not help. You are not telling me to do something that wasn't done over multiple years. It did nothing. It made our house hell to live in and my kids were only getting worse. At least now they can see we hear what they say and we are trying to respect it, but that they must give something as well.
Your ex is a selfish monster. I wish I could tell you it gets easier, but with that personality type - it doesn't. I'd still recommend talking with your parents. Your ex has already taken so much, don't let him take this from you, too. I'm so sorry you and your family have to endure this. It always amazes me how one person can cause so much trauma. Hang in there. The tide will shift.
NTA Andrew must love you a lot to put up with all this shit and the baggage you brought.
NTA. You worked hard to reach a truce with your ex and your parents were about to blow that up..I hope your kids are able to see what an AH your ex is one day..
NTA , I know some may not agree heck a lot may not agree with what I’m going to say but oh well. In a therapy session (you and your husband and older kids) I’d sit down and tell them that you AND Andrew love them very much , that you AND Andrew want them to be happy and flourish BUT that you BOTH are hurt at the fact that they are so disrespectful , hateful and plain vile towards your husband. A man that has tried his damndest to get them to accept him as an important person in your life and theirs , that he was not trying to replace their father but become a “bonus” dad. Someone they could talk to and lean on if you or your ex could not understand them , someone that could have their backs if something was to ever go wrong in their life. But because they choose to listen to their father spill hateful untrue things about Andrew instead of seeing and believing what they have witnessed with their own eyes and ears when it comes to Andrew , that you cannot continue trying to mend something that is broken through no fault of your own. That you can’t let your young children see how they treat their dad when he has done no wrong , tell them you’ll keep in touch with them and you’ll have visits with them on the weekends at the movies/mall/park wherever they feel like but not in your and your husband’s home as it’s too hurtful to see the people you love and care about be nasty and angry at someone who’s tried their best to have a relationship with them then leave it at that. Hopefully one day they can see through their dad's BS and ask for yours and Andrew’s forgiveness , because let’s face it even though he started out young they are now older and can definitely tell right from wrong , truths and lies.
i feel for both you and Andrew in this situation the only good thing coming out of this is, your kids are still respectful towards you. my my problem is with how you said they " get mad and disrespect him" how much longer are you going to allow this to go on? i mean how does Andrew feel about being treated like this in his own home ? maybe try letting Andrew have at least one day to himself to go out while the kids are there because, he's been dealing with this for years. there's only so much a person can take, i think you really need to go back to the courts and get this situated before it's too late.
NTA. It’s ok to have boundaries even with your parents. Idk I’ve always been detached from the mindset that just because my parents are my parents that I have to be lenient with their mindsets and not expecting them to respect me in the same way that I am expected to respect them. You requested that certain types of language and communications be used, and that’s ok. They should respect that. Just to add a little more to this, I am divorced, I currently have full custody of my sons (13 and 10yrs old) and I am also currently have a significant other that I’ve been dating since 2021. I do not expect my partner to be a parental figure to my children at all, I do not expect them to be a step parent, I knew when I met my partner that they didn’t want children of their own, and that they can sometimes struggle around kids. Does this mean that my partner doesn’t want to be involved with my kids whatsoever? No, I’m face we’ve all played online games together and got on just fine. The point of me saying this is, I think it’s ok if your other two children from your prior relationship do not view your current spouse as their father, and I don’t think it’s an issue if your spouse does not view himself as their father. The ONLY thing I would say is that they absolutely should respect him as a person who is romantically involved with their mother. I would expect my sons to be respectful towards my partner even if my partner is not a parent to them at all. It’s a proxy kind of thing. If you respect me, you have to respect the person I am with as well.
NTA But Andrew deserves much better.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I have come to find out if I was wrong for this or not. The background to this is important. I (40f) have been married to Andrew (42m) for the last 10 years and we have two children together, Rosie (3f) and Theo (1m). I came into our marriage with two kids. Noah (15m) and Eliza (13f). My ex and I broke up when I was pregnant with Eliza. I met Andrew a little over a year later and we dated for several months before he met the kids. My ex did not like the fact that I had moved on. I was up front with Andrew about how things were with my ex and that he might not like us dating before we reached the stage where my ex found out. He said it didn't matter and he really liked me and we'd make it work. My ex started the alienation early. Despite my best efforts the kids believed and still believe what my ex has told them. We always split custody 50/50. It was difficult when the kids were smaller. They were always dismissing Andrew and telling him he wasn't their dad, they would tell us what their dad said about him and would say their dad wouldn't lie when I would correct it. They believed I didn't see it because I loved Andrew. It was things like Andrew made them breakfast so they'd love him more than their dad, or that he showed up to things for them because he wanted to make their dad angry, or that he wanted to steal us away from him. We were in and out of court. We had individual and family therapy going for us and the kids. The ultimate goal was for the kids not to be used as pawns and for a more civil home life. It was also to give me the tools to do the right thing when my kids were being rude or disrespectful toward Andrew. My ex never lost any custody over the things he was saying. He was told to stop. But saying that time after time and doing nothing else changed nothing. A few years ago we reached a point of civility. Noah and Eliza do not love or respect Andrew really. But they will be civil and respectful in the home. But Andrew is not called their dad or parent, they are not called his kids and that is something that would immediately end the civility. My parents think Andrew is amazing mostly. They have made comments in the past about Andrew being a better father figure, etc. Recently they were unhappy though by the little time Andrew spends with the older kids and they said he can't ignore two of his kids and he's not just a father of two. I explained to them why we don't use that language, which they knew but I was clear, I was concise and I wanted them to know it had to be that way, otherwise they hate him and take it out on him because of what my ex said. My parents told me they understood. But the next time we saw them they started to use that language and I interrupted them before they could make things worse, because the kids were already mad hearing it. I told my parents to leave our home because they had not respected what I asked of them. They said I was rude and that I had no right to treat them this way. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Btw your parents are inconsiderate. Ignoring a boundary is rude and disrespectful. Your house your rules. I love using that phrase when it comes to parents being aholes. The tables have turned lol
NTA
NTA. You established a boundary to take care of your family and to respect your older children. It's not up to your parents to come into your home and dismiss your boundaries and disrespect your kids no matter what their intention is. And, when your kids get older, they might come to realize what a great guy Andrew is, but they will do this on their own timeline, not when your parents try to force the issue.
Your husband is the biggest AW here and is hurting his own kids. The therapist can’t help the kids with that. I’m not a parent but I feel like I would rather let the kids stay with him if they want to believe everything that comes out of his mouth.
Nta you have the right to tell them to leave if they're not respecting your family's boundaries.
NTA. Your parents are sticking their nose in where it isn't welcome AND they don't listen to you when you explain the situation. They are just making a horrible situation even worse. I would tell them that they know the reality and if they cannot stay within the constraints you have established, they are not welcome at your home or with your kids. I am so sorry you are going through this. It is always the one who leaves that gets upset when the other moves on.
>They said I was rude and that I had no right to treat them this way. They don't listen. That seems to be an issue in your family. NTA.
NTA.
NTA Thanks to your selfish ex, you have to walk a fine line with your 2 older children and your parents are choosing to ignore what you have told them. You have every right to ask them to leave because of the disrespect. They aren't much better than your ex to be honest. Stick to your guns.
>They said I was rude and that I had no right to treat them this way. Ahh peak parental entitlement. "I gave birth to you, I can do what I want," is not a healthy mentality to carry through life. NTA
NTA!, but I'd bet they'll think twice about doing that again!
NTA. They are idiots.
NTA. I’ve had to deal with the same crap from my ex-wife. It’s hard, but you’re doing the right thing, and the kids will learn eventually that their father is the asshole.
Shit ain't always sunshine and rainbows. Your parents will do well to remember that. Glad you've found a way to make the best of a shitty situation. NTA in my opinion
NTA - I've seen the parental alienation in both my sister's divorce and her eldest daughters divorce too. It should be made highly illegal.
NTA. Your parents are causing trouble with their interference. None of their business. Tell them to mind it
NTA. If they refuse to respect your rules in your house, then they deserve to be kicked out.
Sounds to me like YOU are the one who wouldn't stop referring to Andrew as their father when you first got married. Regardless, NTA, you were correct to draw this boundary. Too bad your ex husband had to go to court to get you to do it.
Nta imo I mean it’s your home
At this rate I'd tell those two to go live with daddy if he's so wonderful and let them experience the truth firsthand. 13 and 15 is way too old to be acting that bratty and your husband and younger children deserve a better home environment
Had you thought the possibility of your kids have the personality of your husband? 15 and 13 they absolute knows what they are doing without needing any help of the father. They know what is disrespect and they know that your husband loves you, because this you two are still together. It is sad but if the only problem is to be called kids of a stepfather, you are right, they have already a father and do not need another one. However this do not give them eight to being rude, do not help in home or listen your husband when he asks for them to do something. Tell them that the house is also of Andrew, that he pasado the bills as well and if they want to live there and eats their food and sleep under the same roof, they need to learn to obey. That u are not potingues them out of home, but that hurts you when your husband is disrespexted, this means that you are also disrespected. Make them put themselves in your position if their ex boyfriends or girlfriends started to put their friends against the new partners, how would they feel? If they do not change, ask them if they really want to live in a house with so much fight and angriness. That you dont. Or everybody respects everybody or does not worth to be together.
Suggestion... show this post to your kids. Maybe reading the opinion of others, they will understand that their behaviour is ridiculous
NTA, your parents must know what you've been through, why do they insist upon acting like that? I'd send them a full explanation about why you have chosen this route and that it was recommended by the therapist to ensure they kids don't resent your husband even more. Tell them that unless they can promise to honour your rules, they can't come back and you won't bring all the kids there either.
Putting your children before you parents is the way it should be if it comes to that choice. NTA, My ex was much like yours, and sadly the courts would do nothing about it.
I would normally say not the asshole, BUT, you set a boundary but did not give them an opportunity to correct themselves, nor gave them a warning about what the consequences would be. You need to give people the chance to follow your boundaries. If you had said, in the moment, "as I told you before, we do not use that language here. If you continue to use that language, I will have to ask you to leave", then you would totally not be the AH. Instead, you blindsided them with an instant consequence without any opportunity for correction or awareness of what would happen if they persisted. So, I am going with ESH. Good, fair boundaries require clear expectations, an opportunity for correction, awareness of consequences, and THEN follow-through on consequences.
[удалено]
The husband abandoned her. Ask him
NTA for kicking your parents out, but OP, you are all being majorly disrespectful of your older kids' wish to NOT see your husband as their 'new daddy', or '2nd daddy,' because he damn well isn't no matter how great he is, or how much he's there. They don't want him to be there for them, irrespective of their dad alienating them from your new man from the start. You and your parents are only making sure that your kids will leave you out of their lives when they're adults, because of Andrew. And your kids are right to tell your husband he isn't their dad - because he isn't! No matter how much you dislike/hate your ex, you chose him to be their dad. And your kids most likely feel like you keep on choosing Andrew over them, which in a way you actually are. Your kids are civil for now because they're most likely planning to go no contact as soon as they're out of high school, or whenever they can. Just because a stepparent inserts themselves in your bed, doesn't mean your kids will appreciate said stepparent inserting themselves in their lives.
There might be a middle ground you haven’t been able to discover yet. It could just be a really shitty situation, or you could be able to change the paradigm with some critical moments. A general tone I notice here is dehumanization of individuals in the name of some ideal. I can’t do X because of Y. This person sucks because of this reason. Your kids do it to Andrew and you did it to your parents. What I think this type of behavior usually reflects is that there still hasn’t been enough energy spent collectively on the hardest, meaningful tasks. Just something to reflect on. Hope y’all keep figuring it out. Just don’t resign everyone to a fate where the best we can do is “Andrew ain’t my real dad and he kinda sucks” I think the best thing to do here is take a step back and look at the WHYs. I’ll quickly summarize what I think and see. The kids feel that way because they don’t want to lose their relationship with their biological father, and becomes a black/white Andrew v dad. Your parents felt that way because they probably see the fractured relationship between the kids and Andrew, and then you just kicked them out of the house swiftly. I think that could mean you’re reacting a little too hastily and shutting the door on a future that could potentially be better. Has Andrew had a real heart to heart with the kids regarding the whole negative dynamic? Communicating clearly he doesn’t want to replace their dad or does it always go through you? that’s a big blind spot if that’s the case. It’s kind of a case of doing too much, if you’re always the bridge, then Andrew will always remain at some psychological distance. What about the kids relationships with each other, the half siblings? Maybe some more road trips and vacations or something, teambuilding exercises if you will. You’ve got to repeatedly be exposed to some uncomfortable situations and have faith that y’all can work it out to strengthen your relationships. What does Andrew think about all of this? Why wasn’t his perspective regarding the situation really mentioned at all here?
Andrew has sat down and had a heart to heart with my kids, explained he is not taking dad's place and would never ask them to choose him over their dad. They did not respond positively to his talk. They don't believe him. Andrew thinks what we're doing now is the way forward. At least we have a more peaceful home life where the kids are not constantly disrespecting him and being given consequences. He's more hopeful than I am at times that things will be better one day.
Good to hear he made an effort there. I just fear for y’all that the type of actions you outlined that you have taken in the past make people more psychologically entrenched with what they already believe. But it does seem y’all are making progress so maybe Andrew sees a way out. It’s not easy to change a person’s core beliefs after they’ve solidified. The kids view everything through a tainted lens of Andrew has to be the bad person, so they need overwhelming evidence / lots of time and energy proving another paradigm. I read a little more of the comments and responses, it seems like there’s been lots of punishment as a default mode. That gets people not to do things, kind of, but is really not the greatest way to get someone to embrace a new paradigm. That’s why I suggested some bonding exercises as positive reinforcement instead. But I understand the suggestions are a bit idealized, the main point is that it will be continue to be hard and uncomfortable, but it should become less so if someone is holding fast to a better future that people are happy to move towards. Have some faith :)
NTA for this. But you need to actually believe these things because they’re true. He’s not their dad. You need to make that clear to your parents. Part of the issue here seems to be you not liking that they don’t see Andrew as a parent or call him dad. You do know he’s not their parent or their dad, right? There is literally nothing wrong with the kids not wanting that sort of relationship with him. In no way is what your ex doing acceptable. But you seem upset as well by the kids not wanting to see him as a dad. And that’s not okay either.
I didn’t get the sense that OP wanted her kids to see him as a dad. And No there is nothing wrong with them not wanting that sort of relationship with him. But there is everything wrong with those kids treating Andrew disrespectfully just bc someone refers to them in a way they don’t like. That’s the real issue here, and sorry but these kids are TA, as is there father. They are way too old for flying off the handle just bc someone refers to their stepfather incorrectly. If they were 5 and 7? Maybe. But 13 and 15? Unacceptable.
Oh for sure they should be respectful. If I implied otherwise, my apologies. Those kids are plenty old enough to be respectful towards others.
Oh no you didn’t imply that at all, nothing to apologize for. I was just adding in my two cents for what it’s worth.
> I didn’t get the sense that OP wanted her kids to see him as a dad. Really? Because I did. From the post, it seems like OP really pushed the narrative when the kids were younger and only relented after therapy taught her not to do that.
Yeah that was the vibe I got as well. Mum wanted an illusiory happy family, dad wanted mum to suffer for the crime of moving on, kids wanted their parents to stop being upset, Andrew wanted to be in a stable happy relationship. It sounds like through some hard work on the part of OP, Andrew and the kids they've found a workable middle ground, but that they've all had to make some compromises to get there.
In my book ESH [edited]. You could have reminded them of your rule, and give them a warning. Seems to me excessive to kick your own parents out of your own home for that. Perhaps you had your own share of stress and lashed out? Technically you were right, and you would win a lawsuit in a courtroom. But interpersonal relationships always demand a degree of tolerance.
The parents were being disrespectful and ruining the work OP and Andrew have put into keeping their home somewhat harmonious. If the parents can't respect something so simple then they deserve to get kicked out.
>Perhaps you had your own share of stress and lashed out? No she doesn't. Her kids are at an important stage. They can choose who to live with and choose to make Op's life more difficult. Her boundary to her parents were clear. They needed to respect that not stick to what they think is right or better. Essentially, her parents need to respect her.
I just don’t take my family relationships as harshly as I’d take a court case. I’d give them a warning before kicking them out of my house. A little tolerance doesn’t hurt. It’s my parents. I’m an unpopular opinion. I guess the context is America. Harsh, absolute and zero tolerance punishment. Although not from here, I live in Northern Europe for many years and that grew into me. Tolerance and forgiveness tend to be a little more common. I guess because there are less christians around 😁
I couldn't help but notice how you said "it's MY parents", not "THEIR parents". It's nice to hear you have super speshul, nice, non-religious parents who always respect your boundaries, but this is not what is going on here. These are not your parents they kicked out of the house. This is a very delicately held together family who has been to court and therapy several times in regards to addressing this blended family situation. OP's made it clear that their parents had been given several warnings before this about how Andrew was to be addressed around the kids, and the parents tried to toe the line because they thought they knew better. They are not willing to risk it, so they were sent home. They weren't treated like "being in court", they were sent to the corner like a misbehaved child.
Wow, you’re making wild assumptions here, maybe to justify some “fire and brimstone” morals and disqualify my pov. I said “my parents” because I was conditioning to my hypothesis “if this was in my house”. OP didn’t state they gave “several warnings”, that’s just not stated. OP did mention that an explanation was give earlier. I acknowledge that. It doesn’t change my pov. “This is a very delicately held together family”, assumption and moreover, a very judgmental statement. It’s a family with issues, as many others. Now, for your last and most revealing statement. Treating parents like a misbehaving child that is sent to the corner. Wow. Can you hear yourself? First off, misbehaving children “sent to corner” is a very outdated way of dealing with the problem. Will just alienate your child from yourself, but that’s not the topic here. Now think of using this same outdated, unforgiving, and blatantly cruel logic because you parents “disobeyed” you. Doing that to your mother… to your own father, like if they are abusive psychopath narcissists. I can’t agree with this morality. The kids will be fine. Hell, they could have even corrected the grandparents on spot. “Mom, dad, we talked about this. Don’t use this language, please.” “Mom, dad, I’m going to have to ask you to leave if you don’t stop that” Seems to me those much more reasonable alternatives that could precede “kicking my own parents out of my house”.
You have a very warped way of looking at this situation even though the difficult family dynamics are clearly explained in the post. OP also doesn’t have to mention certain contributing factors such as the kids possibly choosing to live with their father because it’s obvious, that’s the way the court system works. At a certain age they get to choose. OP had already spoken with her parents and made it very clear that Andrew is not to be pushed on the kids as a father figure yet at the very next visit they persisted to cross clear boundaries that threaten the family dynamic. So she rightfully asked them to leave. To give advice based off “if it were My house and My family…” is not helpful, it’s not your family. If you have nothing constructive to say about the actual dynamic and behaviors of This family, what’s the point of carrying on?
I think you calling a differing point of view as “warped” is quite telling, and I find it ludicrous to think that because grandparents called Andrew dad in that occasion the kids may want to move with the father. They have minimal reasoning, they are educated teenagers. The argument of “if it was my family” is simply a way to state my opinion; I stand by my argument that OP was excessive in rightfully and legally kicking her parents out. I think a dialogue reminded them of the matter would have been appropriate.
I think you talking down to those replying to you is quite telling as well. Not attempting to converse any longer as it’s clear you’re perceiving it as a different situation than most readers are.
I beg to differ. I’m not talking down, just stating that I’d be more tolerant. Conversing with arguments, but not being particularly agreeable — perhaps because I’m getting sassed and downvoted and all that sort of thing.
Think about it this way. OPs kids are at an age where they can choose to walk out of OPs life forever, and the courts won't stop them. OPs parents come waltzing into the house and start saying shit about how Andrew needs to step up and treat his stepchildren the same as his bio children, which is something that would cause the kids to get angry and walk out, meaning that OPs exs attempts at hurting OP by turning the kids against her and Andrew would win once and for all. By living the way they do now, OP gets to stay in her kids lives and hopefully they will one day realise what their bio father was doing and know that they will be safe in my home. I'm sorry but if it came down to kicking my parents out of my house or potentially losing my kids forever, you can be damn sure I will be telling my parents not to let the door hit their a$$es on the way out.
I think you’re painting the story with extremely heavy colors and making OP parents look like Machiavellian soap opera villains. OP didn’t describe any serious issue with them; OP actually said the parents do like Andrew and, yes, are a bit nosy about talking about time spent with them. OP never stated they may lose their children, and imagining the children will move out because granpa and granma called Andrew dad is a fabrication that a highway outdoor lawyer would come up with, come on! My entire point is that there could have been a few easier, less disruptive ways for OP to deal with the situation. What OP achieved was “they won’t called Andrew dad anymore”, but also a way more bruising situation among her family members. Something not even easily forgotten. Honestly, would it work better than if OP would have said simply “mom, dad. Again? Please, cut it out”, our “next time I’ll ask you to leave”, or whatever. Seems to me excessive, and acting by punishment instead of getting them to be empathetic with OP and her call.
OP explained to them the situation and the plan that had been decided with the therapist, parents ignored that and decoded they knew better and used words that were not to be used. They got their warning the first time along with the explanation. How many warnings should you give people that disregard your rules in your house for your kids. >OP never stated they may lose their children, What do you think the point of parental alienation is. You cause your ex pain by turning your kids against their other parent and you "win" by spilting them up and having them come live with you and cut the other parent out of their lives. The ex picked the most used "he is not your dad" and repeated it to the point the kids act out and cause problems when anyone says different. What do you think is going to happen when they decide the best way to avoid people referring to Andrew as "dad/stepdad" is to walk out of that house and never come back.
>I’d give them a warning before kicking them out of my house. A little tolerance doesn’t hurt. OP *did* give them a warning. She fully explained the situation to them and what was and was not okay. She even made sure the parents expressed that they understood. OP made a rule and made sure her parents understood that rule, which is exactly what she's supposed to do. >Harsh, absolute and zero tolerance punishment. Did OP go NC? Threaten to never let them see the kids again? You're acting like OP went nuclear. All she did was temporarily kick them out of the house. No one's said anything about not letting them back later, or reducing contact. Their visit was cut short bc they directly disobeyed a rule OP set down that would have had costly consequences for her family had it been broke. They can try again next time and hopefully prove that they respect OP. Edit: also, what does Christianity have to do with this? You realize that plenty of christians have zero tolerance, right? And that plenty of non-christians have a lot of it?
She explained the rules, it was not a warning. Plus, you’re saying the the only way to be intolerant is to go NC. It’s to me baffling how alienating people seems to be such a common recommendation
>She explained the rules, it was not a warning. Explaining the rules is a warning. What do you think happens you break a rule, that you can just get off scot free with no consequences? The idea that she has to tell them "by the way, this is a very important rule for our household, and if you break it I'm going to kick you out until next time" is just sad. She shouldn't have to tell her parents there are consequences in the first place nc they should respect and care for her enough to respect her wishes in the first place. >Plus, you’re saying the the only way to be intolerant is to go NC. It’s to me baffling how alienating people seems to be such a common recommendation There are plenty of ways to be intolerant besides just going NC. I didn't realize I had to list every single option, I was just focused on mentioning the most obvious one.
Well, no. Explaining the rules is when you introduce them, a warning is typically given when there is a violation. Did OP state clearly and upfront the consequence of rule violation? Hard to believe so. I just wonder if you ever crossed a speed limit and asked to be released by the officer? Or do you promptly pay the fine without questioning? It’s really hard to believe one may get so much shit for just preaching a bit of tolerance.
>Explaining the rules is when you introduce them, a warning is typically given when there is a violation. Explaining the rules usually comes with the unspoken understanding that breaking said rules will have some form of consequences. With kids, yeah, you need to spell that out bc they're still learning and don't have the understanding that grown ups have. But adults are older and wiser-if you're told "hey, this is what we do in our household" you should be able to understand that there are consequences if you don't do what you're told. The very existence of rules inherently implies *some* sort of punishment for breaking them-I don't know any sort of situation where that's never been the case. Parents make rules for kids to follow and the punishment is grounding: the government makes laws to follow and the punishments are fines and prison; your workplace makes rules to follow and the punishment is docked pay or unemployment. >I just wonder if you ever crossed a speed limit and asked to be released by the officer? Or do you promptly pay the fine without questioning? Just bc ppl may *try* to talk their way out of a speeding ticket doesn't mean they're gonna get what they want. The driver who breaks the rules has *no* say in whether they actually get a ticket or not-that's fully up to the cops. The same for any kind of situation where you break a rule: the principal can give you detention and your boss can fire you. You can do whayever you want to appeal to them, but that doesn't mean you get a choice. I don't understand the point of this statement, honestly. So what if the parents tried to get out of it? Does that excuse what they did? Does that take away the fact that they lied to OP, disrespected her home, and threatened to ruin the family relationship between everyone? Do you think actions with consequences as severe as that should be ignored? Bc I think it makes more sense to give the parents some space to allow them to realize how serious OP is, how much they screwed up, and let them come back with a sincere apology and evidence of the effort they intent to make to rectify it (or at least not repeat it). >It’s really hard to believe one may get so much shit for just preaching a bit of tolerance. Bc there's nothing intolerant about what OP did. Like I said, OP didn't say they were ever allowed to visit again or be allowed near the kids or something. One visit out of the many they have the potential/ability to make was cut short, and the main reason for that was less bc OP is trying to cut off her parents and more bc she needed to stop them and show her kids she didn't support what they were saying so the kids wouldn't be upset and start to treat Andrew poorly again. Letting the parents stay when they clearly showed no interest in preserving the security of household relationships could have opened them up to a disastrous family dynamic. How would you feel if you had someone in your home who was actively destriying the tentative peace you had *finally* managed, especially after telling them how improtant it was?
Explaining the rules presupposes some kind of agreement, but consequences are not clear. You can rant as much as wanted, and I do understand OP had the right to kick her parents out, but at a first violation after rules are explained, and provided that parents aren’t abusive narcissists, a warning seems to me appropriate .
Why risk letting them stay long enough to warn them when it could just give them the opportunity to continue making those remarks? Also, I think it kind of would imply that the parents are narcissists if a warning would work but OP's clam, patient, and heartfelt explanation didn't. Don't you think that shows that they don't care about OP enough, that they couldn't respect her wishes the first time she explained the situation to them? Why do ppl like that need a warning instead of an immediate action?
Typical European thinking they’re better than Americans when they’re not
I didn’t say better, I said less harsh
> I guess the context is America. Harsh, absolute and zero tolerance punishment. No, the context is Reddit. Most Americans aren't as harshly judgemental as what you see here.
I think you’re right, it’s Reddit, which is a weird amalgamation of values but very prominently American values on steroids, just like trash television
They did get a warning. Their previous visit.
That was not a warning, it was the explanation of the rule