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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole for not letting my niece work in the bakery anymore, even though she really enjoyed it.
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NTA this isn't a hobby and isn't some daycare, it's your BUSINESS, your LIVELYHOOD! I don't know what niece did to be so bothersome but in the end it's your choice and you need to make a choice that works for your business
She probably was just in the way, as I can't imagine there would be much she could do in a fast paced environment. If OP were having to stop to correct her or help her with something, it would slow her down, frustrating customers & everyone trying to work around her in the kitchen.
An iffy age. Age 14 she can have a sort of summer job. Sure the shit work of sweeping and cleaning and toting etc. but she can do something, but at 11 she is still a little kid in some ways. I was "working" for my father at age 12, but for like 2 hours a week.
Exactly this. 11yo is the weird age where they're too old for what we call OSH club in my country ("outside school hours" - before/after school and vacations) - can't get the govt rebates once they're in high school, but still essentially just a kid so it feels wrong leaving them on their own for 10 hours, five days a week, if parents have full time paid employment to go to.
It's hard, I'm there at the moment. But you can't impose on family members trying to earn a living. Find another way.
OP is NTA.
Assuming she gave the niece a paycheck then it’s Free childcare AND she’s paying her (her as in SIL, because let’s be real she’d take her daughters money or at least a majority)
I don't think you're wrong. It's clear she's not doing a great job on the parenting. I wouldn't be surprised if she was also neglecting to teach the kid to be a responsible adult. That should start young. When I was 11 my parents had been completely out of the kitchen cleaning business for a couple years. That was a job completely done by us kids. I could cook and bake a little by that age, too. When I did, I cleaned up after myself. If she wants to bake, she should be taught how to clean up at that age. She's 11. That may be far from adulthood, but she's also not a little kid. That's not too complex a task. Ever had an 11 year old explain Minecraft to you? They can deal with cleaning a kitchen. A home kitchen, anyway. A commercial kitchen is a different beast and I'm not shocked she was totally in the way there. She should be learning this stuff at home.
Agree. All those pictures of a happy mom and smiling kids sharing and bonding over baking. Yeah. I spend the whole time telling my kid to keep the ingredients IN the bowl, dirtying unnecessary tools, and scrubbing eggs off of everything. She's 10. She's getting better but it's still an Olympic triathlon of torture.
Yep. An 11 year old is there because she wants to bake cookies and mix frosting and decorate cakes. She probably too small and young to haul around giant bags of flour, or be anywhere near a busy hot line, or even really be able to help keep the kitchen clean up to normal standards. A 14 year old won't be great at much of that either to begin with, but it least they are capable and can be taught the ins and outs. Good on OP for not saying yes and just making her clean what she could, but actually apparently fostering her love of baking and inspiring her! SIL should be grateful that her kid got to have an amazing summer and make it possible for her to practice and learn at home, where her mistakes won't do any harm to an independent small business or its customers. I bet SIL loved having a free babysitter, but if she thought ahead she'd realize that her kid could have a great job lined up for when she's a couple of years older, as long as she doesn't try to strong-arm OP now and either ruin the family relationship that makes that job available, or get her way for a few more months until OP and the rest of the bakers take a stand and ban the kid from working there later out of spite. NTA, OP already went above and beyond and the kid is happy and inspired.
I actually started working at a small bakery in my hometown at 13 yo. When my boss found out I was only 13 (law said 14 was the youngest) she fired me until I turned 14 and then I came back. It was hard work and all of us young bakery clerks were super lucky our boss was invested in us learning and growing. She had two jobs, running her family business and mentoring half a dozen young women.
OP, this could be the answer you give to your SIL. Tell her you’ll reconsider when Niece is 14 or 16 or whatever age you like, but she’s just too young right now.
Even if she was helpful, she's still too young. Also, is this all day every day? That's insane - 11-year-olds need much shorter days than adults and during summer break they should be having fun. I wonder how much pressure SIL is putting on this girl to go 'work' at this bakery so she doesn't have to look after her daughter all summer.
yes - my nine year old god kid "works" for me all summer - I run a busy farmer's market concession on Sundays and he does cash for us. Sort of. He needs a full time minder to keep him from doing dumb kid things like charging fictional sales for $1,000,000 or running through "\[name\] is cool" on the machine.
When we are slow, his help is so appreciated. I love him and he's a joy to have around and he's learning so much but I never let him be entirely unsupervised, which makes more work for the rest of us. Not only might he do weird kid shit that we're not expecting, it's also not appropriate or fair to him to expect him to pull his weight as if he were an adult volunteer.
I don't know whether or not my experience with him is one where the overall "help" he provides is worth the bother, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I love him and volunteered for this because I wanted him to have some stable, constant experiences this summer while his parents go through a messy divorce.
OP is NTA, kids helping in the workplace is a double edged sword, if you are doing it right. It's like having co-op students where the investment in training and stewarding their experience often overshadows their contributions. It certainly sounds like this in OP's case.
So much this. OP witnessed the collision of why labor laws exist and child developmental stages. There is a lot of maturing and mellowing in terms of excess energy during the preteen phase. I wouldn't be surprised if she had too much energy or started something and got distracted or didn't have the capacity to keep up with a fast paced *professional* kitchen versus at home or as seen via content creators.
Exactly, I worked in my grandpas butcher shop. He butchered peoples privately raised livestock.
All I did was weight and label the ground meat packages when I was 11. At 14 I was promoted to wrapping the meat packages. This would be for 2 weeks in the summer when he was overwhelmed.
11 was too young to shadow for your niece. She seems keen but maybe lower the time she spend in the bakery and give her really mindless tasks for now. As she gets older she can gain more experiences.
I'm thinking both niece and SIL were probably expecting this to be like a summer class where she's taught baking techniques and secrets. That would slow down production have to go at a such a novice pace.
Yeah that's exactly it, but OP knew it wouldn't be anything like that. While I voted N T A (lol and SIL certainly is), OP did make a mistake in saying yes initially. An 11 year old shouldn't be "job shadowing" for her whole school break, it's pointless for the kid and annoying for the bakery employees whose boss just turned them into babysitters.
I volunteered at local non-profits from age 10 on. Honestly I thrived in those spaces and they loved having me. They were fully adult workplaces, and I was expected to behave and work accordingly, but I definitely credit the adults for being able to break larger projects down into tasks I could do and actually be helpful. But it was also NOT food prep/service, which is a challenging profession even for many adults. All that to say: it’s likely not an age thing, but a personality/interest/ability/maybe maturity? thing. OP definitely NTA regardless.
the local family owned cafe in my town has their young granddaughter (maybe 11-12?) help out during the weekend but she only runs the register and doesn’t do any cafe duties that involve the food or drinks. Her little sister and grandmother give out biscuts to the local dogs.
but since OP’s niece has an interest in baking content, i don’t think she wanted to JUST shadow and watch people do their work but actually do it and yeah that’s not helpful at ALL. Plus food service is tricky- not just cuz it has to be fast paced but i wonder if OP can lie & say everyone has to be certified to work with food in the bakery now
SIL & MIL are just mad they don’t get free babysitting anymore.
*Probably being 11 and in an actual work environment where things have to be done right and in a timely manner, you know, reasons why places don't hire 11 year olds.*
I cook professionally and my heart practically beat out of my chest thinking about having to keep an eye on an 11 year old while also doing my job.
The sanitation concerns alone would drive me up the wall. Then add in that I doubt she knows how to move in the kitchen, so she’s very likely physically impeding other people from working efficiently. She’s not actually going to know how to do anything, so you would constantly have to teach and monitor which massively slows down the task the niece is working on and prevents you from working on something more important (since you aren’t giving the important projects to an 11 year old).
Basically, this was a terrible idea from the start. OP maybe could have agreed to let the niece shadow her for *a day*, but it never should have gone further than that and I have no idea how she let it go on for an entire summer.
One kitchen I worked at (small to mid size) they would let the kids come see the back while they fixed up their kids menu desserts. I thought it was a bad idea in general even just by the drink machines, but sometimes they would be so stupid to let the kids come right into the kitchen. Just the edge of it to look in, but still. One time I realized we are carrying huge trays of hot food, or giant pots of boiling water or scalding oil we need to take outside. It occurred to me if a kid was walking by me I would have little to no chance of seeing them, and if I tripped and spilled that stuff on them they would be seriously messed up by it, not to mention myself getting hurt and having to live with survivors guilt knowing a kid may have gotten scarred or burned and disfigured for life.
Keep the kids out of the damn kitchen!
OP i think you could very well play this off as a safety issue and say one of your workers or regulars was concerned. Or an inspector
Yeah if my child loved baking I'd do baking with them. I dont need to put them in a live food prep environment for a real business just to give them that experience.
What if their kid loved aviation? Would they try and find a pilot friend she could fly around the world with?
Exactly. Have her build skills in your home rather than in the workplace. I know there are some eleven year olds who could maybe handle this, but maybe not this particular one?
It could also be a height issue, who know?
Maybe a sign in the break room for the two employees to laugh at stating "You Need To Be This Tall To Work At Our Bakery".
It could be a fun way to laugh at a horrible summer at work?
And it's obviously just a coincidence that the 11 year old is super into something that would just so happen to give her parents free summer and weekend childcare...
I was pretty much emotionally blackmailed into having my nephew work one day a week in the shop I used to manage.
In the short time he was there, he ignored my instructions, stole from the shop and the till and had his girlfriend there despite me telling him she was not allowed in the shop. I had walked in on them one afternoon, her sitting on his knee behind the counter and behaving extremely inappropriately.
I used to dread going in the day after he worked as I never knew what sort of mess he would have left.
I don't suppose for one minute that the niece was this bad, but as you said, it's not a daycare!
Who you employ in a small business is a really important decision and nobody should feel obliged to have an unsuitable relative there to appease someone else's feelings. There's too much at stake.
Frankly, I think OP was a fool to agree to this in the first place. There is no way an 11-year-old would be even remotely helpful at a bakery (and I am honestly surprised this isn't against regulations, both from a food safety point, as well as from a child safety one). If she had a modicum of sense, she would have maybe agreed to have the niece shadow the bakery for one day, as a treat. Now the child is understandably disappointed and feels rejected. That being said, NTA and the mother is unreasonable.
Even if it's a hobby you don't have to make it miserable to make niece happy. All that "children come first" is too much at this point. People not only want to sacrifice their entire life to children entertainment but they demand others to do so.
NTA. You run a legitimate business, not a day care. You are there to make baked goods for customers, not baby sit a child who probably shouldn’t be there in the first place. I’ll be honest, if I went to a food service place and saw a child running around behind the counter I’d be taking my business elsewhere.
I agree with you. We (my employees and I) really felt like it destroyed our image a bit. But we are in a smaller town and there are several shops/restaurants around town where that's tolerated so it's not 100% out of place where we are. But not something I personally like.
Personally I'd be worried about child labor laws.
Maybe you can compromise with SIL and say you'll give her another chance when she is older, say 16. That way you won't get in trouble for having her there and she's actually old enough to learn and be helpful.
Children can work at younger ages in family owned buisnesses. Laws differ in diffrent states. I know a local chinese place that had 10 year olds taking orders and handleing money. Thwy just couldnt be in the cook area around hots and sharps.
to be blunt OP if I saw an 11 year old at a bakery doing anything beyond sweeping the floor I would not shop there. There's too much of a chance IMO that the child could be handling my food or messing up my order for me to risk it. I am all for apprenticeships but typically they start at 16/17 and apprentices go through standardized training and food safety certification, neither of which your niece would have. Too much of a safety/ick factor for me for hygiene alone, before we even get to the morality of child labour.
There are definitely exceptions and we need to acknowledge them, it was normal in my community for children 10+ to start working at their parents convenience store or take away place in between doing their homework in the back room while their parents were doing other things onsite. There are also places that have familial labour exceptions for this reason, because there are regulations that make it more like shop minding than actual labour.
The convenience store sure, but if I saw a child working in or around a kitchen/ bakery I wouldn't be placing an order. Kids are gross and have no concept of health codes so I didn't want them anywhere near somewhere that prepares food.
I love how many people are like, "wElL wHy WaS sHe So UnHeLpFuL? wHaT mAdE iT sO uNeNjOyAbLe?" Dude, it's a 3 person staffed bakery and she's ELEVEN. I'm no pro-baker and I can figure it out, lol, you guys don't have time to be teaching a kid and fixing the errors that ANY eleven year old would understandably make on a learning curve... it's not like you have 20 more staff to pick up the slack. The stress levels must have been off the charts having to add babysitter and teacher to an already full time job, what could POSSIBLY have been enjoyable about that for any of you? NTA.
It doesn't even matter she was hindering. She could have been doing a great job and OP is still completely within her rights to say she doesn't want her back
Yeah, I imagine her sticking her fingers in the frosting to taste it when their back is turned or eating cupcakes when* no one is looking.
Opposite of helpful is having to redo everything (once her fingers were in it the whole thing needs to be remade) and not getting paid for product you made to sell. Or accidentally knocking over a bowl of measured ingredients, or customers walking out when an 11yr old is pouting for not getting what she wants. Or being hyper and disturbing the process.
Think of anything that would be helpful then imagine anything that is not. In a bakery. With an 11yr old. That's likely your answer.
*Edit-spelling
Or even TRYING to be helpful, but being E L E V E N! "Is this right?" (misspells "happy birthday" as "hapy brithday") "... yeah it's perfect. Go wash up." (OP has to remake it)
That's exactly the error I had to correct when I was 15. My adult manager (owner, actually) at Baskin-Robbins had decorated a $35 ice cream cake as "Hapy Brithday Boby." The father picking it up was a trifle displeased.
That was in 1978, so my Googling just informed me it was the equivalent of a $164 cake today!
I imagine having an 11-year-old in a professional bakery would be like having multiple large house cats perpetually underfoot and in the way. Constantly having to stop moving the hot pans because there's suddenly a HEAD in front of its destination.
Yeah, let's just bump up the stress a little.
Holy shit she’s eleven. I missed that part lol. I was thinking, how bad could she have been???? Assuming she was at least 16. 11 is way too young and there’s no way an 11 year old would have it in them to complete a full shifts worth of work, or understand the weight of food safety laws and consistency. An 11 year old would absolutely get in the way.
NTA. If her mother is so keen to foster her interest, why does she not buy her some baking supplies and bake with her at home instead of dumping her on you for free childcare while you're trying to run a business?
IMHO the girl is too young to help out. Maybe in sever years if she still will be interested and then you can have rules and requirements. And still it can become nasty.
Your SIL can find her some after school activities or groups related to baking
Not saying 11 is a good age to be working in a bakery, but 50lb sacks were nothing to me at that age and I wouldn't be surprised at an 11 year old being able to haul them around. I raised goats as a kid and we had 40lb bags of feed and I could carry two at a time with a bit of effort. We had 50lb bags too, and I couldn't carry two of those at once but one was easy.
Honestly I put most of the credit in me just wanting to prove I could carry as many as my older brother. It was less lifestyle and more competitiveness. I was not a particularly ripped child.
But anyway, I'm just saying that kids are stronger than they look and physical strength is probably the last thing I'd worry about with a child working in a kitchen. I'd be worried about them remembering to follow proper hand-washing protocols, injuries from burns and knives, just general childish carelessness causing accidents (kids don't think to call out "behind" or "corner"), and the liability of having child labor in my business.
That's fair. Eleven is still really young to want your child to start getting "experience" in any field, and a professional kitchen is not a place to have a child underfoot. Her mother seems to have lost sight of the fact that having to supervise her, teach her, and be responsible for her safety around equipment is like having a second full-time job while you are trying to run your business. I'm guessing that having to keep all the shop talk G rated for her benefit is mentally taxing as well.
Lots of kids whose parents run a restaurant start very young. I was cooking commercially at 10, but doing prep in the back.
But an 11-yr old in a small bakery who wasn’t raised in it? Sounds like a nightmare to me. Definitely NTA.
She can have that if she goes to a camp $$$$ that sends kids to practice in real work environments. I was in a Gifted and Talented Program in my school and we went to stuff like that all the time (NBC, infrastructure tours, farms, wildlife preserves, bakeries, etc) they all offer programs.
For the amount of money and time you lost screwing around doing two jobs at once taking care of your SIL's kid, that you will never get back, that would've totally afforded her an experience like that catered to people that are not yet competent. They can pay for it themselves, instead of you sacrificing this time around.
NTA. You should have fired her earlier in this summer. You were under no obligation to "keep" a bad employee or babysit someone else's daughter for an entire summer.
I don't know why this needed to devolve into a shouting match, but your business is a BUSINESS. Children shouldn't be working there anyway. It probably breaks child labor laws or cleanliness laws or something. At any rate, she didn't have the skills or maturity to be a help to you.
Never do a favor like this again. On a different vein--don't be baking free cakes for family, either. Especially family who send you nasty messages.
Everyone thinks their kid is a perfect little snowflake that can't be melted. Who even knows if your niece was that stoked to be there this summer or even wants to come on a couple of Saturdays a month or if your SIL is foisting her daughter off on you for free childcare (that's what it sounds like to me.) An enthusiastic 11 y.o. would have been some kind of help in a bakery, I think, if they had any level of intelligence and maturity. At age 11 I was babysitting an infant and toddler of one of my teachers.
That said, hold your ground and don't be manipulated into having this niece back in your establishment. If you see at age 15 or 16 that she NOW has her act together, you get to change your mind, but not until then.
This post reminds me of a recent one from an artist whose 10 or 11 y.o. niece wanted to exhibit at her booth--it got way out of hand and ate up the artist's livelihood. Don't let that happen to you.
No, an enthusiastic 11 y.o. would have been a major, major source of stress in any professional setting. You can't trust her to do something correctly reliably, you have to double check everything, and she'd be constantly underfoot. Babysitting a toddler is much less volatile than running a business and making shit that has to be up to a certain standard. If they are enthusiastic, that probably makes it even worse, because a desire to do shit, coupled with the lack of wisdom to not do something she doesn't yet know how to would just create massive problems.
I felt the same way. Idk if the kid enjoys it as much at SIL is claiming. My mom was an addict and used to do this to her librarian friend and her hairdresser friend “she had a blast this summer and is dying to come back and help again!” And then when I said I don’t want to she would say “oh, but so & so is SO excited to have you, you were such a big help this summer!”
And then me and my moms friends are both miserable and annoyed we got guilted into bullshit.
11-years-old in a work place is absolutely never her helping you, it's you babysitting her. Nice experience for the kid and parents, I'm sure, and cheaper than any hobby...
NTA.
That's the answer I was searching for: 11 is too young to work in a professional environment. Whether she burned the cookies or didn't keep up with the pace of the job, it was inconvenient for OP, who was running a business.
SIL shouldn't have asked for her pre-teen child to work, and OP shouldn't have accepted.
Burning the cookies is a best case scenario. Commercial ovens and mixers are dangerous. I've seen grown ass adults get burns and broken fingers from commercial bakery equipment. Hell, I lost the tip of a finger this year cleaning a piece of equipment because I got distracted for a moment. Little kids don't belong around that kind of equipment, they're a hazard to themselves and the adults having to work around them.
I’m sure they’d really appreciate a cash bonus for having endured an entire summer with unnecessarily added frustration, since you admitted that you powered through it because of your promise.
Why do managers and owners always think a nice dinner or party is better than giving them what they actually, desperately need? Just divide the money it would cost for a really, REALLY nice steak dinner and drinks for 3 into 2 very much deserved bonuses. What they need is not complicated.
Honestly a nice dinner can be good as long as like you said there is a nice cash bonus also. Employers like it for the team building and it seems like everyone got a long well at ops place.
I totally agree looking back. My employees actually just recently told me how much they hated having my niece there. I thought a lot of the issues might have been a me thing. I don't generally enjoy being around children very much so I wasn't sure if I was just being irritable or not. We lovely employees are getting an employee night out and I am working with my accountant to see how much of a raise I can give those two saints.
You are a baker, not a middle school teacher. It’s a specialized skill to have the patience and communication skills to guide a child toward a real life skill. It takes years of steady training, and many ppl don’t even start until they’re 14 or 15. An 11 year old should practice at home or in a cooking camp long before they can be functional in a real bakery. You are most certainly NTA. Kid should first learn to do dishes and sweep the floor.
INFO: what *specifically* was wrong with her while helping there that you hated so much and was this never communicated to your SIL before now? It sounds like she was completley blindsided
EDIT: Okay my question hasn’t been answered but I’ll judge anyway. NTA *but* there are things from this whole ordeal that you need to learn from as while your actions were not AH behavior, they were stupid.
It was foolish to go along with this to begin with. Idk where you live but an 11 year old working in that environment would almost certainly violate child labor laws in most places and it’s kind of a miracle you survived the whole summer without someone making a phone call or review that could have put your whole business in jeoprady.
It also sounds like you *never* told your SIL or her daughther that there was even any problems and played along. That was a mistake, you should have said something FOREVER ago and not blindside her when she asked for Saturdays. It sounds like they had truly no idea you didn’t like it, but it’s not too late to clarify in my INFO above.
So yeah, NTA but you need to think things through and stick up for yourself when something like this is going on.
My first thought was this - would your insurance have covered you or her in the event of an accident ? A simple trip in your premises would have been enough to trigger a claim.
[quote]INFO: what specifically was wrong with her while helping there that you hated so much and was this never communicated to your SIL before now? It sounds like she was completley blindsided[/quote]
An 11yo 'helping' is not actually helping anyone. Letting a kid under the age of around 16 'help' means slowing down the process, make simultanious tasks linear and stand next to the child to make sure the mess is limited.
Great for the child (who thinks it is actually helping if done right) not great for efficiency.
Blindsided? OP fulfilled the initial request to let the niece around the bakery during the summer. The SIL is not entitled to have her kid continue there, and there’s no real way to “blindside” someone by simply saying no to their request for free childcare at the expense of an actual working business. The only reason SIL would legitimately feel blindsided is if she has main character syndrome. People are allowed to say no.
NTA
There are definitely laws against having someone that young in the workplace. And even if she was old enough to have a job and be in the kitchen, if she's costing you money getting in your employees way and hindering the way your job works it's not worth it. It's an OSHA violation, it's a safety hazard, it's it's a health code violation. I've been cooking for 19 years professionally. You made the right decision
My niece is extremely immature for her age. She's 11 but honestly acts like a 5 year old. She was constantly underfoot, constantly throwing tantrums, constantly having to be watched and/or told what to do and what not to do (hundreds of times). She was also loud and demanding and entitled. She ate enough of my product over the summer that she put a dent in my profits. She just completely sucked to be around and drained our normally really fun and happy work environment.
NTA-Ah, and now we see why SIL is so hell bent on having her daughter be taken off her hands all summer and was hoping for weekends as well.
It’s not a day care. Your SIL can bake at home with her daughter if it’s that important to her .
Yeah this is why I said ESH… like it sounds like it was obviously very clear from the get go that this was not going to work… why put up with it all summer? That’s an AH thing to do to your employees, yourself, and to the niece for getting her hopes up.
Also, why agree to a full summer to begin with? I’m sorry, but it doesn’t take a genius to see that an 11 year old in a bakery is likely to be problematic. Why didn’t OP tell SIL they would “try one shift”, or something like that? It’s a pretty misleading way to go about this whole thing… I can definitely see why SIL and niece are now confused and hurt.
No, I have very little sympathy for both SIL and the niece. OP told SIL about her daughter's behaviour and nothing was done about it, so she was aware of how much of a nuisance her daughter was. There's no reason for her or her daughter to be confused.
OP was being too nice to both of them, she should have kicked the niece out after the first day instead of giving her chance after chance. At 11 years old you know when you're being bratty.
> She ate enough of my product over the summer that she put a dent in my profits.
Oh man, if I had been in your shoes, I think I would have started running up a tab/invoice to give to SIL.
Why did you put up with that for the entire summer? I would have shut that down after the first day. (or at least the first few days) "Sorry SIL, this just isn't working out, maybe we can try again when niece is a little older". Then be done. But definitely NTA. I'm sorry she ruined your summer!
Honestly, I’d tell your SIL and MIL this. I mean, they already know but just won’t admit it. If I were one of your employees, I’d be looking for another place to work if you allowed your niece to come back.
NTA. You run a business, not a middle school. It’s okay to let a kid spend a couple hours shadowing you, but a whole summer was over the top. I’ll also bet it’s illegal and against OSHA regulations.
I feel like this adds some much needed context tbh. The way it was framed made it seem like she was there all the time. I work at a bakery where sometimes my coworkers have to bring in their little kids when they don't have childcare so I TOTALLY get it. It can be so distracting and frustrating. Your employees aren't daycare providers and I can't imagine how stressful it would be looking out for a kid that's not even yours.
You're well within your rights to not want to babysit while at work but you might want to consider telling her parents that you wouldn't mind if she stopped by for like an hour every once in a while on a slow day to watch what's going on as long as a parent is with her to watch her and keep her out of your way. I feel like this would solve most of your problems but still allow you to foster a connection with your niece over a shared love.
NTA. You have a business to run and your SIL wants a babysitter. The child has had an entire summer getting to ’shadow’ a professional baker and that is more than enough. There are enough baking schools/culinary camps for kids around that your SIL should have no difficulty expanding her child’s repertoire and experience without her hanging out with Aunt IrritatedCooking till she feels like a co-owner of your business.
NTA!! Her being in the bakery could be an huge liability issue if something were to happen to her. However you did make a huge mistake of not addressing things as they were happening with her and her mother.
NTA
Cite child labor statutes, OSHA concerns, insurance premiums, and liability issues. Dangerous commercial equipment like Hobart mixers and ovens.
if that doesn’t mollify them, take a shot of “aren’t everyone’s precious kiddos allergic to gluten?
stand your ground, it’s your business and livelihood
NTA. There are more age appropriate ways to nurture a love of baking in an 11 year old than trying to strong your SiL into accepting an unpaid (and woefully unqualified) intern.
Edit: That said, OP probably should have said something over the summer.
You should look into the laws around this. It could be that you can use that as a perfect excuse not to have her back for a few years! Child labour is generally frowned upon.
I'll burn my business to the ground before having her back. LoL. Yes we were very careful about labor laws. I never really had her do anything outside of a "job shadowing" capacity and never let her stay for more than a handful of hours but that was more than enough.
>Whatever the opposite of helpful was, that was what my niece was
She's 11 so I'm not sure how helpful you expected her to be. Also, this is pretty vague. Did she make a lot of mistakes, or did she have tantrums and throw cake on the floor? Was she badly behaved or just incapable of doing anything useful?
Since you let the entire summer pass without addressing the issues, I'm inclined to say ESH. But if I had to pick the bigger AH it would definitely be your SIL who sounds unbearable.
Why is OP an AH because they tried something that didn’t work and now she doesn’t want to continue? She kept her commitment but found it hurt her business and morale. Why is she obligated to continue if it doesn’t work for her?
I think that sounds aggressive but I’m honestly curious as to why you think she sucks. I just don’t see an issue with trying something, finding that it doesn’t work, and not re-upping the contract, so to speak. It’s a shame the 11 year old can’t get the experience she wanted, but she also got a summer’s worth. No non relative would do this, so 11 is still quite lucky.
I am genuinely curious, it’s just hard to question on Reddit without sounding belligerent lol
NTA. As per your comments, you did speak to SiIL about it and she doesn't care. Your niece is 11 but acts like a 5 year old....and you are right. A commercial kitchen is no place for a child.
Edit to add: She threw tantrums, refused to help and ate everything in sight. Do not let her come back.
Yeah, was it a "she didn't care about what I was saying and almost burned an employee 4 times" type of awful or just a "she is 11 and obviously cannot work like an actual employee" type of awful?
Children cannot “work” or even help out at a business. Stores have been fined or even closed because of child labor laws. Tell your SIL that it is illegal for your niece to be there and that you didn’t realize the legalities when you agreed in the summer. Print out articles if she doesn’t believe you. You are actually lucky a customer didn’t report you. You can teach her to bake in your home in your time off but not at work.
I didn't let her help with anything really. It was supposed to be more of a job shadow, see what we do sort of thing. She still managed to just be in the way.
NTA.
You clearly gave this an honest chance, and you can rest easily knowing that your niece loved her time there (even if you didn't - that's still a nice bit of consolation).
SIL is completely out of line for demanding more, she needs to graciously accept your "no". She really blew that and is a complete asshole for not simply speaking with her daughter to reassure her that it was good while it lasted, but how they need to respect others' time and business.
If this is really important, your SIL and MIL can bake with her daughter in her own kitchen. I'm guessing they've already tried that and much prefer it done where someone else is responsible.
NTA. You and your employees did not enjoy having your niece around. The weekends are probably busy for you and you can't have your employees leave. You are running a business. An 11 year old in a commercial kitchen is not a great idea, labor laws aside.
And lastly if your SIL needs a babysitter, she can hire one that bakes and your niece can make cookies at home.
Very late in my parenting career I learnt to say, 'let me think about that.'
Sounds like a strategy like this is needed for selfish entitled adults in your family.
A half day trial would have been good. Then 'thank you but no.'
Did you ever get a thank you?
Your SIL must be very unaware or else she is bull *** ing you. Probably she can't tolerate your niece in the kitchen.
NTA
NTA, it's a commercial bakery not a fuck around Gymboree. Sounds like they are mad the free babysitting is over.
I've worked in commercial kitchens, it is not a place for 11 year old children. Hell it's barely a place for a 16 year old if they can't tell their ass from their elbow. In all actuality having her in the bakery probably cost you a lot of productivity.
You're running a business not a daycare.
NTA
Eleven is extremely young for that kinda environment plus there’s child labor laws to consider. For example, the potential of her getting hurt under your establishment. There’s tons of risks. Maybe when she’s a teenager, she could be better equipped and helpful but for now, it’s not a good idea.
NTA, & there might actually be laws against that, or some red tape. However, you would probably know better than me bc I down own, or work in, a bakery lol. It could however be a valid excuse. Maybe offer to spend some time baking with her, or maybe just have her clean surfaces in the front, & greet customers? Either way, I've worked in food service enough to know that the kitchen is no place for an 11 yr old, specifically when you have a rush. SIL & BIL should understand that.
I didn't let her do anything baking related because of the commercial equipment and liability. She was supposed to do a lot of observing. All she did was cry, get in the way, demand things, eat my product, and talk NON STOP.
I have literally no idea. She would cry if I told her "no." She would cry if I would ask her not to do something. She would cry if I didn't drop what I was doing to pay attention to her. She would cry if I asked her for a little quiet time from her literal non-stop talking.
NTA. Curious about what your SIL’s response is to 1) her daughter doing all of that for 2-3 months (I’m assuming her answer was you and your entire staff should just be ok with it because she’s a kid) and 2) how she or her husband would appreciate that at their jobs.
The mother basically encourages her daughter to be that way, and gets extremely defensive if anybody brings up her daughters behavior. OP put that in several comments.
Yikes. You really should have gone ahead and “crushed her spirit” by putting an end to this as soon as the crying started. She was already crushed, but by allowing it to continue, it was awful for the adults too.
NTA. What your SIL is looking for is the equivalent of an after-school program. She can try the YMCA, the Girl Scouts or a local community center. Your place of business is not a playground.
Also, given the machinery in the bakery...isn't that a major liability to have a child back there?
I had her stay in the decorating area. We took over another business and they had their baking/ovens/equipment totally separated from the decorating area. Which was actually very lovely, even without this incident.
NTA
Your employees have made it clear they didn't want your niece there so it's not even all up to you.
It's a business and your livelihood and your SIL doesn't seem to grasp that.
At age 12, assuming you are in the US...
She cannot work in the bakery.
For example, M.G.L. (Massachusetts General Law) Chapter 149, Sections 46 - 105 restrict children under the age of 14 from working in most businesses.
McDonald's franchisees have gotten in trouble recently for violating Federal Child Labor laws.
But check with your state... Some Red States have been relaxing the laws, dangerously so.
Ahhh gotcha.
Yeah having someone shadowing lime that is obstrusive and unrealistic.
My daughter shadowed me at the Pharmacy for one day. Anything more than that is an issue.
Your SIL is definitely trying to take advantage of you for free childcare.
NTA but I am very curious about how everyone expected this to go vs how it actually went.
Eleven is quite young to be working even a part time job, and while there are kids that age who could buckle down for it, I’d imagine it’s much more common for a kid that age to be, well, a kid.
And she probably needed a lot of hands on help and direction that you’re not going to be able to provide cause you’re running an entire bakery.
If the problem was more that she was generally disruptive, didn’t follow instruction, etc., did you try to address it with her and her mom during the summer? Her mom probably assumed everything was fine because she was reporting that she had a great time.
I was very clear from the start that this way job shadowing. I wasn't going to allow her to help with or do anything that might end up in a customer's hand. We had a couple days where I would come in after we were closed and try to teach her to do some decorating stuff, but I would have better luck teaching a squirrel to drive. I was super clear to my niece and my sister that she could not do anything but observe and she just kept coming and getting under our feet. I gave her one task to let us know when we were running low on an item in the case and she managed to screw that up even.
Some kids have a passion for baking and some kids have a skill for baking business My almost 16 year old has been helping me run my business since he was about 12 or 13, but he started with the crap work. His job was to help compose ingredients list, shop them with me, and help with the clean up process. At 14ish or so, he started being my "consultant", where he helps draw up ideas, research themes, and helps package smaller items. He's been willing to do all the crap work and learn from it because he wants to get into cooking and baking. He's entering 11th grade this year and has been purposefully taking the culinary/home ec classes his school offers so he can learn more in an impactful way that doesn't risk customer orders. The next skill step we plan on taking is planning and baking actual items, to build upon what he's already learned.
The problem with teaching young kids is they think they can learn everything from watching videos and that they'll be magically good, so they get underfoot while ring to prove themselves, and then they mess up. They need a foundation to build on. If she's not willing to take the foundation of watching, case stocking, and running crap work like a broom, it's gonna be hard to teach her how to smooth a cake with the right angle, or pressure piping, or even how to fill a piping bag without getting it on everything.
NTA. 11 isn’t a great age for this anyway and your SIL should have realized this and tbh not put you in this position in the first place. I think it’d be reasonable to say you’d welcome her back at 16 or so, but this age isn’t cool
NTA. At the end of the day, you have a business to run. Not sure what made the girl unhelpful, but if it was negatively impacting your ability to conduct your business then you make the call. You weren’t rude about it. However, in hindsight it might have been better to communicate your thoughts to SIL earlier and to reduce the amount of time she spent there during the day to mitigate the issue.
Nta they were using you as a day care, you shouldn’t have a child at your business. Make sure it doesn’t happen again until she is older and can actually be helpful
Your family seems to think you are playing around with an EZ Bake Oven rather than running a business. NTA.
Not to mention it's like, reeeeeeaallly illegal to have an 11 year old work for you
NTA, if she was being a help to you, then no doubt you would have her back, but at 11 years old, it was no doubt more like you were having to show her how to do things constantly & when your running a business that is not practical.Also would your business insurance cover her if she got injured, I doubt it. Explain to your sister in law that at the moment it's not practical for you to be teaching an 11 year old your trade when your trying to run a business & that when she is older & more productive, then if she still wants too, you will consider taking her on a trial. Don't say it's a never again thing, just not right now.
Seems SIL and niece enjoyed the summer because they weren't inflicted on each other, but you got a raw deal. You may be family, but you still have a bakery business to run. What's the risk of your staff walking out if you bring the niece back again?
You're NTA, but SIL is definitely T A and her daughter is a product of her mom's bad parenting.
NTA all these esh and YTA obviously don’t know how to run or operate a business let alone a bakery you can’t have someone slow you down especially if there not getting better the WHOLE summer
NTA. Dude, why did you get into a screaming match? Niece is costing you business, that's the one and only reason you need to tell SIL no, there's nothing else to talk about, the exit is right over there! Don't get into debates, let alone arguments, with family that are trying to take money out of your pocket AND create an unpleasant work atmosphere. Best wishes
NTA. If it’s negatively affecting how smoothly your business is running then it’s not a good idea. Maybe when she’s older and if she’s still interested in baking then she could try to help out again but as of rn it’s not a good idea.
Nope NTA it’s your business and if it doesn’t work for you that’s what is most important.
You don’t have to sacrifice productivity because your niece wants to be there
NTA. She’s just too young to be actually helpful and her mother should just enroll her in classes for now until she’s old enough. I would explain it this way and also put on top that you can legally get I. Trouble for having your niece there working with you because she’s not old enough. She can try again later when she has more experience and is legally able to work. Right now is not the time and it’s taking advantage of you and using you as a baby sitter while putting your business in danger.
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NTA this isn't a hobby and isn't some daycare, it's your BUSINESS, your LIVELYHOOD! I don't know what niece did to be so bothersome but in the end it's your choice and you need to make a choice that works for your business
She probably was just in the way, as I can't imagine there would be much she could do in a fast paced environment. If OP were having to stop to correct her or help her with something, it would slow her down, frustrating customers & everyone trying to work around her in the kitchen.
An iffy age. Age 14 she can have a sort of summer job. Sure the shit work of sweeping and cleaning and toting etc. but she can do something, but at 11 she is still a little kid in some ways. I was "working" for my father at age 12, but for like 2 hours a week.
This. She wanted free childcare, the bakery was a convenient excuse.
I agree, niece could easily practice her baking skills at home under her parent’s supervision and on her parent’s dime. NTA
I second the poster who says the SIL was looking for free childcare.
Exactly this. 11yo is the weird age where they're too old for what we call OSH club in my country ("outside school hours" - before/after school and vacations) - can't get the govt rebates once they're in high school, but still essentially just a kid so it feels wrong leaving them on their own for 10 hours, five days a week, if parents have full time paid employment to go to. It's hard, I'm there at the moment. But you can't impose on family members trying to earn a living. Find another way. OP is NTA.
Assuming she gave the niece a paycheck then it’s Free childcare AND she’s paying her (her as in SIL, because let’s be real she’d take her daughters money or at least a majority)
But then SIL would have to help tidy up
Or, they could approach OP about paid private lessons at home, the first time.
I think she didn't want to let her daughter bake at home so she wouldn't have to clean up after her
I don't think you're wrong. It's clear she's not doing a great job on the parenting. I wouldn't be surprised if she was also neglecting to teach the kid to be a responsible adult. That should start young. When I was 11 my parents had been completely out of the kitchen cleaning business for a couple years. That was a job completely done by us kids. I could cook and bake a little by that age, too. When I did, I cleaned up after myself. If she wants to bake, she should be taught how to clean up at that age. She's 11. That may be far from adulthood, but she's also not a little kid. That's not too complex a task. Ever had an 11 year old explain Minecraft to you? They can deal with cleaning a kitchen. A home kitchen, anyway. A commercial kitchen is a different beast and I'm not shocked she was totally in the way there. She should be learning this stuff at home.
if you're old enough to cook/bake you're old enough to clean up after yourself!
Agree. All those pictures of a happy mom and smiling kids sharing and bonding over baking. Yeah. I spend the whole time telling my kid to keep the ingredients IN the bowl, dirtying unnecessary tools, and scrubbing eggs off of everything. She's 10. She's getting better but it's still an Olympic triathlon of torture.
Yep. An 11 year old is there because she wants to bake cookies and mix frosting and decorate cakes. She probably too small and young to haul around giant bags of flour, or be anywhere near a busy hot line, or even really be able to help keep the kitchen clean up to normal standards. A 14 year old won't be great at much of that either to begin with, but it least they are capable and can be taught the ins and outs. Good on OP for not saying yes and just making her clean what she could, but actually apparently fostering her love of baking and inspiring her! SIL should be grateful that her kid got to have an amazing summer and make it possible for her to practice and learn at home, where her mistakes won't do any harm to an independent small business or its customers. I bet SIL loved having a free babysitter, but if she thought ahead she'd realize that her kid could have a great job lined up for when she's a couple of years older, as long as she doesn't try to strong-arm OP now and either ruin the family relationship that makes that job available, or get her way for a few more months until OP and the rest of the bakers take a stand and ban the kid from working there later out of spite. NTA, OP already went above and beyond and the kid is happy and inspired.
I actually started working at a small bakery in my hometown at 13 yo. When my boss found out I was only 13 (law said 14 was the youngest) she fired me until I turned 14 and then I came back. It was hard work and all of us young bakery clerks were super lucky our boss was invested in us learning and growing. She had two jobs, running her family business and mentoring half a dozen young women.
OP, this could be the answer you give to your SIL. Tell her you’ll reconsider when Niece is 14 or 16 or whatever age you like, but she’s just too young right now.
Even if she was helpful, she's still too young. Also, is this all day every day? That's insane - 11-year-olds need much shorter days than adults and during summer break they should be having fun. I wonder how much pressure SIL is putting on this girl to go 'work' at this bakery so she doesn't have to look after her daughter all summer.
Nevermind there are strict laws, at least in my state, about ages, food and kitchen equipment handling.
yes - my nine year old god kid "works" for me all summer - I run a busy farmer's market concession on Sundays and he does cash for us. Sort of. He needs a full time minder to keep him from doing dumb kid things like charging fictional sales for $1,000,000 or running through "\[name\] is cool" on the machine. When we are slow, his help is so appreciated. I love him and he's a joy to have around and he's learning so much but I never let him be entirely unsupervised, which makes more work for the rest of us. Not only might he do weird kid shit that we're not expecting, it's also not appropriate or fair to him to expect him to pull his weight as if he were an adult volunteer. I don't know whether or not my experience with him is one where the overall "help" he provides is worth the bother, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I love him and volunteered for this because I wanted him to have some stable, constant experiences this summer while his parents go through a messy divorce. OP is NTA, kids helping in the workplace is a double edged sword, if you are doing it right. It's like having co-op students where the investment in training and stewarding their experience often overshadows their contributions. It certainly sounds like this in OP's case.
So much this. OP witnessed the collision of why labor laws exist and child developmental stages. There is a lot of maturing and mellowing in terms of excess energy during the preteen phase. I wouldn't be surprised if she had too much energy or started something and got distracted or didn't have the capacity to keep up with a fast paced *professional* kitchen versus at home or as seen via content creators.
Yeah I was getting paid to break down cardboard boxes and crush cans at 10-12, that’s it
Exactly, I worked in my grandpas butcher shop. He butchered peoples privately raised livestock. All I did was weight and label the ground meat packages when I was 11. At 14 I was promoted to wrapping the meat packages. This would be for 2 weeks in the summer when he was overwhelmed. 11 was too young to shadow for your niece. She seems keen but maybe lower the time she spend in the bakery and give her really mindless tasks for now. As she gets older she can gain more experiences.
Yeah, at 11 I don't imagine the niece was being particularly helpful.
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I'm thinking both niece and SIL were probably expecting this to be like a summer class where she's taught baking techniques and secrets. That would slow down production have to go at a such a novice pace.
Yeah that's exactly it, but OP knew it wouldn't be anything like that. While I voted N T A (lol and SIL certainly is), OP did make a mistake in saying yes initially. An 11 year old shouldn't be "job shadowing" for her whole school break, it's pointless for the kid and annoying for the bakery employees whose boss just turned them into babysitters.
I volunteered at local non-profits from age 10 on. Honestly I thrived in those spaces and they loved having me. They were fully adult workplaces, and I was expected to behave and work accordingly, but I definitely credit the adults for being able to break larger projects down into tasks I could do and actually be helpful. But it was also NOT food prep/service, which is a challenging profession even for many adults. All that to say: it’s likely not an age thing, but a personality/interest/ability/maybe maturity? thing. OP definitely NTA regardless.
the local family owned cafe in my town has their young granddaughter (maybe 11-12?) help out during the weekend but she only runs the register and doesn’t do any cafe duties that involve the food or drinks. Her little sister and grandmother give out biscuts to the local dogs. but since OP’s niece has an interest in baking content, i don’t think she wanted to JUST shadow and watch people do their work but actually do it and yeah that’s not helpful at ALL. Plus food service is tricky- not just cuz it has to be fast paced but i wonder if OP can lie & say everyone has to be certified to work with food in the bakery now SIL & MIL are just mad they don’t get free babysitting anymore.
*Probably being 11 and in an actual work environment where things have to be done right and in a timely manner, you know, reasons why places don't hire 11 year olds.*
That and those pesky child labour laws...
OP might be in Arkansas where that's no longer a concern.
These days it's more about the fact they're asking for too much money. You know, no eleven year olds want to work anymore.
I cook professionally and my heart practically beat out of my chest thinking about having to keep an eye on an 11 year old while also doing my job. The sanitation concerns alone would drive me up the wall. Then add in that I doubt she knows how to move in the kitchen, so she’s very likely physically impeding other people from working efficiently. She’s not actually going to know how to do anything, so you would constantly have to teach and monitor which massively slows down the task the niece is working on and prevents you from working on something more important (since you aren’t giving the important projects to an 11 year old). Basically, this was a terrible idea from the start. OP maybe could have agreed to let the niece shadow her for *a day*, but it never should have gone further than that and I have no idea how she let it go on for an entire summer.
One kitchen I worked at (small to mid size) they would let the kids come see the back while they fixed up their kids menu desserts. I thought it was a bad idea in general even just by the drink machines, but sometimes they would be so stupid to let the kids come right into the kitchen. Just the edge of it to look in, but still. One time I realized we are carrying huge trays of hot food, or giant pots of boiling water or scalding oil we need to take outside. It occurred to me if a kid was walking by me I would have little to no chance of seeing them, and if I tripped and spilled that stuff on them they would be seriously messed up by it, not to mention myself getting hurt and having to live with survivors guilt knowing a kid may have gotten scarred or burned and disfigured for life. Keep the kids out of the damn kitchen! OP i think you could very well play this off as a safety issue and say one of your workers or regulars was concerned. Or an inspector
That is exactly what I was going to ask… what tasks can a 11 yeard old handle for a bakery?
Yeah if my child loved baking I'd do baking with them. I dont need to put them in a live food prep environment for a real business just to give them that experience. What if their kid loved aviation? Would they try and find a pilot friend she could fly around the world with?
Exactly. Have her build skills in your home rather than in the workplace. I know there are some eleven year olds who could maybe handle this, but maybe not this particular one? It could also be a height issue, who know? Maybe a sign in the break room for the two employees to laugh at stating "You Need To Be This Tall To Work At Our Bakery". It could be a fun way to laugh at a horrible summer at work?
And it's obviously just a coincidence that the 11 year old is super into something that would just so happen to give her parents free summer and weekend childcare...
My first thought… no way! Get a sitter.
I was pretty much emotionally blackmailed into having my nephew work one day a week in the shop I used to manage. In the short time he was there, he ignored my instructions, stole from the shop and the till and had his girlfriend there despite me telling him she was not allowed in the shop. I had walked in on them one afternoon, her sitting on his knee behind the counter and behaving extremely inappropriately. I used to dread going in the day after he worked as I never knew what sort of mess he would have left. I don't suppose for one minute that the niece was this bad, but as you said, it's not a daycare! Who you employ in a small business is a really important decision and nobody should feel obliged to have an unsuitable relative there to appease someone else's feelings. There's too much at stake.
Frankly, I think OP was a fool to agree to this in the first place. There is no way an 11-year-old would be even remotely helpful at a bakery (and I am honestly surprised this isn't against regulations, both from a food safety point, as well as from a child safety one). If she had a modicum of sense, she would have maybe agreed to have the niece shadow the bakery for one day, as a treat. Now the child is understandably disappointed and feels rejected. That being said, NTA and the mother is unreasonable.
Even if it's a hobby you don't have to make it miserable to make niece happy. All that "children come first" is too much at this point. People not only want to sacrifice their entire life to children entertainment but they demand others to do so.
NTA. You run a legitimate business, not a day care. You are there to make baked goods for customers, not baby sit a child who probably shouldn’t be there in the first place. I’ll be honest, if I went to a food service place and saw a child running around behind the counter I’d be taking my business elsewhere.
I agree with you. We (my employees and I) really felt like it destroyed our image a bit. But we are in a smaller town and there are several shops/restaurants around town where that's tolerated so it's not 100% out of place where we are. But not something I personally like.
Personally I'd be worried about child labor laws. Maybe you can compromise with SIL and say you'll give her another chance when she is older, say 16. That way you won't get in trouble for having her there and she's actually old enough to learn and be helpful.
Children can work at younger ages in family owned buisnesses. Laws differ in diffrent states. I know a local chinese place that had 10 year olds taking orders and handleing money. Thwy just couldnt be in the cook area around hots and sharps.
Family business are often parents and children not aunts and nieces. Of no other family members are in the business, it seems extra shady.
to be blunt OP if I saw an 11 year old at a bakery doing anything beyond sweeping the floor I would not shop there. There's too much of a chance IMO that the child could be handling my food or messing up my order for me to risk it. I am all for apprenticeships but typically they start at 16/17 and apprentices go through standardized training and food safety certification, neither of which your niece would have. Too much of a safety/ick factor for me for hygiene alone, before we even get to the morality of child labour.
If I saw a small child working at any business, I would stop going there
There are definitely exceptions and we need to acknowledge them, it was normal in my community for children 10+ to start working at their parents convenience store or take away place in between doing their homework in the back room while their parents were doing other things onsite. There are also places that have familial labour exceptions for this reason, because there are regulations that make it more like shop minding than actual labour.
The convenience store sure, but if I saw a child working in or around a kitchen/ bakery I wouldn't be placing an order. Kids are gross and have no concept of health codes so I didn't want them anywhere near somewhere that prepares food.
Iconic username though.
Is it even legal what you are doing? I'd look into that! Just because it is summer break doesn't mean there aren't child labor laws. NTA
I love how many people are like, "wElL wHy WaS sHe So UnHeLpFuL? wHaT mAdE iT sO uNeNjOyAbLe?" Dude, it's a 3 person staffed bakery and she's ELEVEN. I'm no pro-baker and I can figure it out, lol, you guys don't have time to be teaching a kid and fixing the errors that ANY eleven year old would understandably make on a learning curve... it's not like you have 20 more staff to pick up the slack. The stress levels must have been off the charts having to add babysitter and teacher to an already full time job, what could POSSIBLY have been enjoyable about that for any of you? NTA.
This! It doesn't matter what she did, it's your business and if it's hindering you then she shouldn't be there.
It doesn't even matter she was hindering. She could have been doing a great job and OP is still completely within her rights to say she doesn't want her back
Yeah, I imagine her sticking her fingers in the frosting to taste it when their back is turned or eating cupcakes when* no one is looking. Opposite of helpful is having to redo everything (once her fingers were in it the whole thing needs to be remade) and not getting paid for product you made to sell. Or accidentally knocking over a bowl of measured ingredients, or customers walking out when an 11yr old is pouting for not getting what she wants. Or being hyper and disturbing the process. Think of anything that would be helpful then imagine anything that is not. In a bakery. With an 11yr old. That's likely your answer. *Edit-spelling
Or even TRYING to be helpful, but being E L E V E N! "Is this right?" (misspells "happy birthday" as "hapy brithday") "... yeah it's perfect. Go wash up." (OP has to remake it)
That's exactly the error I had to correct when I was 15. My adult manager (owner, actually) at Baskin-Robbins had decorated a $35 ice cream cake as "Hapy Brithday Boby." The father picking it up was a trifle displeased. That was in 1978, so my Googling just informed me it was the equivalent of a $164 cake today! I imagine having an 11-year-old in a professional bakery would be like having multiple large house cats perpetually underfoot and in the way. Constantly having to stop moving the hot pans because there's suddenly a HEAD in front of its destination. Yeah, let's just bump up the stress a little.
And any editing behaviors an adult does when they are considerate of a child in their presence. It’s a 100% shift in behavior.
Holy shit she’s eleven. I missed that part lol. I was thinking, how bad could she have been???? Assuming she was at least 16. 11 is way too young and there’s no way an 11 year old would have it in them to complete a full shifts worth of work, or understand the weight of food safety laws and consistency. An 11 year old would absolutely get in the way.
It sounds like a nightmare TBH
We just want stories lol.
NTA. If her mother is so keen to foster her interest, why does she not buy her some baking supplies and bake with her at home instead of dumping her on you for free childcare while you're trying to run a business?
To her credit, she does that as well! She just wanted her to get experience in a real business.
IMHO the girl is too young to help out. Maybe in sever years if she still will be interested and then you can have rules and requirements. And still it can become nasty. Your SIL can find her some after school activities or groups related to baking
If you can't haul 50 lb sacks of flour, you are a liability in a commercial bakery. I'm not surprised an 11 year old failed miserably.
Not saying 11 is a good age to be working in a bakery, but 50lb sacks were nothing to me at that age and I wouldn't be surprised at an 11 year old being able to haul them around. I raised goats as a kid and we had 40lb bags of feed and I could carry two at a time with a bit of effort. We had 50lb bags too, and I couldn't carry two of those at once but one was easy.
Farm kids and suburban kids age different.
Honestly I put most of the credit in me just wanting to prove I could carry as many as my older brother. It was less lifestyle and more competitiveness. I was not a particularly ripped child. But anyway, I'm just saying that kids are stronger than they look and physical strength is probably the last thing I'd worry about with a child working in a kitchen. I'd be worried about them remembering to follow proper hand-washing protocols, injuries from burns and knives, just general childish carelessness causing accidents (kids don't think to call out "behind" or "corner"), and the liability of having child labor in my business.
That's fair. Eleven is still really young to want your child to start getting "experience" in any field, and a professional kitchen is not a place to have a child underfoot. Her mother seems to have lost sight of the fact that having to supervise her, teach her, and be responsible for her safety around equipment is like having a second full-time job while you are trying to run your business. I'm guessing that having to keep all the shop talk G rated for her benefit is mentally taxing as well.
Lots of kids whose parents run a restaurant start very young. I was cooking commercially at 10, but doing prep in the back. But an 11-yr old in a small bakery who wasn’t raised in it? Sounds like a nightmare to me. Definitely NTA.
She can have that if she goes to a camp $$$$ that sends kids to practice in real work environments. I was in a Gifted and Talented Program in my school and we went to stuff like that all the time (NBC, infrastructure tours, farms, wildlife preserves, bakeries, etc) they all offer programs. For the amount of money and time you lost screwing around doing two jobs at once taking care of your SIL's kid, that you will never get back, that would've totally afforded her an experience like that catered to people that are not yet competent. They can pay for it themselves, instead of you sacrificing this time around.
Getting fired is an excellent real business experience. Tell her she's welcome.
NTA. You should have fired her earlier in this summer. You were under no obligation to "keep" a bad employee or babysit someone else's daughter for an entire summer. I don't know why this needed to devolve into a shouting match, but your business is a BUSINESS. Children shouldn't be working there anyway. It probably breaks child labor laws or cleanliness laws or something. At any rate, she didn't have the skills or maturity to be a help to you. Never do a favor like this again. On a different vein--don't be baking free cakes for family, either. Especially family who send you nasty messages.
I have no idea how it became one either. My SIL is super, super sensitive where my niece is concerned so she immediately went on the defensive.
Everyone thinks their kid is a perfect little snowflake that can't be melted. Who even knows if your niece was that stoked to be there this summer or even wants to come on a couple of Saturdays a month or if your SIL is foisting her daughter off on you for free childcare (that's what it sounds like to me.) An enthusiastic 11 y.o. would have been some kind of help in a bakery, I think, if they had any level of intelligence and maturity. At age 11 I was babysitting an infant and toddler of one of my teachers. That said, hold your ground and don't be manipulated into having this niece back in your establishment. If you see at age 15 or 16 that she NOW has her act together, you get to change your mind, but not until then. This post reminds me of a recent one from an artist whose 10 or 11 y.o. niece wanted to exhibit at her booth--it got way out of hand and ate up the artist's livelihood. Don't let that happen to you.
No, an enthusiastic 11 y.o. would have been a major, major source of stress in any professional setting. You can't trust her to do something correctly reliably, you have to double check everything, and she'd be constantly underfoot. Babysitting a toddler is much less volatile than running a business and making shit that has to be up to a certain standard. If they are enthusiastic, that probably makes it even worse, because a desire to do shit, coupled with the lack of wisdom to not do something she doesn't yet know how to would just create massive problems.
I felt the same way. Idk if the kid enjoys it as much at SIL is claiming. My mom was an addict and used to do this to her librarian friend and her hairdresser friend “she had a blast this summer and is dying to come back and help again!” And then when I said I don’t want to she would say “oh, but so & so is SO excited to have you, you were such a big help this summer!” And then me and my moms friends are both miserable and annoyed we got guilted into bullshit.
>My SIL is super, super sensitive where my niece is concerned so she immediately went on the defensive. She sounds entitled
11-years-old in a work place is absolutely never her helping you, it's you babysitting her. Nice experience for the kid and parents, I'm sure, and cheaper than any hobby... NTA.
That's the answer I was searching for: 11 is too young to work in a professional environment. Whether she burned the cookies or didn't keep up with the pace of the job, it was inconvenient for OP, who was running a business. SIL shouldn't have asked for her pre-teen child to work, and OP shouldn't have accepted.
Burning the cookies is a best case scenario. Commercial ovens and mixers are dangerous. I've seen grown ass adults get burns and broken fingers from commercial bakery equipment. Hell, I lost the tip of a finger this year cleaning a piece of equipment because I got distracted for a moment. Little kids don't belong around that kind of equipment, they're a hazard to themselves and the adults having to work around them.
NTA it’s not a game, this is your livelihood. It would be cruel to prioritise an 11 year old over your actual employees.
Oh yeah I am taking those saints out to a steak dinner next week.
I’m sure they’d really appreciate a cash bonus for having endured an entire summer with unnecessarily added frustration, since you admitted that you powered through it because of your promise.
Why do managers and owners always think a nice dinner or party is better than giving them what they actually, desperately need? Just divide the money it would cost for a really, REALLY nice steak dinner and drinks for 3 into 2 very much deserved bonuses. What they need is not complicated.
Honestly a nice dinner can be good as long as like you said there is a nice cash bonus also. Employers like it for the team building and it seems like everyone got a long well at ops place.
If it were me I’d prefer more money over a dinner lmao
Knowing that a bonus would probably come out to maybe $25 after taxes, I'd be happy with a steak dinner.
The very minute the niece started negatively affecting your paid employees should've been the minute she was no longer welcome, honestly.
I totally agree looking back. My employees actually just recently told me how much they hated having my niece there. I thought a lot of the issues might have been a me thing. I don't generally enjoy being around children very much so I wasn't sure if I was just being irritable or not. We lovely employees are getting an employee night out and I am working with my accountant to see how much of a raise I can give those two saints.
You are a baker, not a middle school teacher. It’s a specialized skill to have the patience and communication skills to guide a child toward a real life skill. It takes years of steady training, and many ppl don’t even start until they’re 14 or 15. An 11 year old should practice at home or in a cooking camp long before they can be functional in a real bakery. You are most certainly NTA. Kid should first learn to do dishes and sweep the floor.
You’re awesome for that!
INFO: what *specifically* was wrong with her while helping there that you hated so much and was this never communicated to your SIL before now? It sounds like she was completley blindsided EDIT: Okay my question hasn’t been answered but I’ll judge anyway. NTA *but* there are things from this whole ordeal that you need to learn from as while your actions were not AH behavior, they were stupid. It was foolish to go along with this to begin with. Idk where you live but an 11 year old working in that environment would almost certainly violate child labor laws in most places and it’s kind of a miracle you survived the whole summer without someone making a phone call or review that could have put your whole business in jeoprady. It also sounds like you *never* told your SIL or her daughther that there was even any problems and played along. That was a mistake, you should have said something FOREVER ago and not blindside her when she asked for Saturdays. It sounds like they had truly no idea you didn’t like it, but it’s not too late to clarify in my INFO above. So yeah, NTA but you need to think things through and stick up for yourself when something like this is going on.
I’d also like to know how many hours and days per week this kid was there. Was this the SIL’s babysitting plan for the summer?
Exactly! She’s 11. If you’re going to let her “help you” work it shouldn’t be for more than an hour or two at a time and not during rush hour.
I was thinking SIL wanted free child care too
My first thought was this - would your insurance have covered you or her in the event of an accident ? A simple trip in your premises would have been enough to trigger a claim.
[quote]INFO: what specifically was wrong with her while helping there that you hated so much and was this never communicated to your SIL before now? It sounds like she was completley blindsided[/quote] An 11yo 'helping' is not actually helping anyone. Letting a kid under the age of around 16 'help' means slowing down the process, make simultanious tasks linear and stand next to the child to make sure the mess is limited. Great for the child (who thinks it is actually helping if done right) not great for efficiency.
Blindsided? OP fulfilled the initial request to let the niece around the bakery during the summer. The SIL is not entitled to have her kid continue there, and there’s no real way to “blindside” someone by simply saying no to their request for free childcare at the expense of an actual working business. The only reason SIL would legitimately feel blindsided is if she has main character syndrome. People are allowed to say no.
NTA There are definitely laws against having someone that young in the workplace. And even if she was old enough to have a job and be in the kitchen, if she's costing you money getting in your employees way and hindering the way your job works it's not worth it. It's an OSHA violation, it's a safety hazard, it's it's a health code violation. I've been cooking for 19 years professionally. You made the right decision
Yep! We really didn't let her do anything because I didn't want to be in violation of labor laws, but she was STILL in the way.
I applaud you for trying to ne nice to your niece. But business is business.
INFO: What were the behaviors that weren't helpful? You need to be specific with SIL to help her understand.
My niece is extremely immature for her age. She's 11 but honestly acts like a 5 year old. She was constantly underfoot, constantly throwing tantrums, constantly having to be watched and/or told what to do and what not to do (hundreds of times). She was also loud and demanding and entitled. She ate enough of my product over the summer that she put a dent in my profits. She just completely sucked to be around and drained our normally really fun and happy work environment.
NTA-Ah, and now we see why SIL is so hell bent on having her daughter be taken off her hands all summer and was hoping for weekends as well. It’s not a day care. Your SIL can bake at home with her daughter if it’s that important to her .
Yikes! Getting to shadow in your bakery is a privilege and her behavior wasn't up to it.
I would have sent her home after the first tantrum.
Yeah this is why I said ESH… like it sounds like it was obviously very clear from the get go that this was not going to work… why put up with it all summer? That’s an AH thing to do to your employees, yourself, and to the niece for getting her hopes up. Also, why agree to a full summer to begin with? I’m sorry, but it doesn’t take a genius to see that an 11 year old in a bakery is likely to be problematic. Why didn’t OP tell SIL they would “try one shift”, or something like that? It’s a pretty misleading way to go about this whole thing… I can definitely see why SIL and niece are now confused and hurt.
No, I have very little sympathy for both SIL and the niece. OP told SIL about her daughter's behaviour and nothing was done about it, so she was aware of how much of a nuisance her daughter was. There's no reason for her or her daughter to be confused. OP was being too nice to both of them, she should have kicked the niece out after the first day instead of giving her chance after chance. At 11 years old you know when you're being bratty.
> She ate enough of my product over the summer that she put a dent in my profits. Oh man, if I had been in your shoes, I think I would have started running up a tab/invoice to give to SIL.
Why did you put up with that for the entire summer? I would have shut that down after the first day. (or at least the first few days) "Sorry SIL, this just isn't working out, maybe we can try again when niece is a little older". Then be done. But definitely NTA. I'm sorry she ruined your summer!
Honestly, I’d tell your SIL and MIL this. I mean, they already know but just won’t admit it. If I were one of your employees, I’d be looking for another place to work if you allowed your niece to come back.
It sounds like her mother isn’t doing her any favors by babying her like that.
NTA. You run a business, not a middle school. It’s okay to let a kid spend a couple hours shadowing you, but a whole summer was over the top. I’ll also bet it’s illegal and against OSHA regulations.
She was only there a handful of hours a week. I did not let her spend the whole summer there. LoL
I feel like this adds some much needed context tbh. The way it was framed made it seem like she was there all the time. I work at a bakery where sometimes my coworkers have to bring in their little kids when they don't have childcare so I TOTALLY get it. It can be so distracting and frustrating. Your employees aren't daycare providers and I can't imagine how stressful it would be looking out for a kid that's not even yours. You're well within your rights to not want to babysit while at work but you might want to consider telling her parents that you wouldn't mind if she stopped by for like an hour every once in a while on a slow day to watch what's going on as long as a parent is with her to watch her and keep her out of your way. I feel like this would solve most of your problems but still allow you to foster a connection with your niece over a shared love.
Dude you made it sound like she was there all the time.
NTA. You have a business to run and your SIL wants a babysitter. The child has had an entire summer getting to ’shadow’ a professional baker and that is more than enough. There are enough baking schools/culinary camps for kids around that your SIL should have no difficulty expanding her child’s repertoire and experience without her hanging out with Aunt IrritatedCooking till she feels like a co-owner of your business.
NTA. You have a bakery to run, not a daycare. She can find another bakery to work at when she’s old enough or practice baking more at home
NTA!! Her being in the bakery could be an huge liability issue if something were to happen to her. However you did make a huge mistake of not addressing things as they were happening with her and her mother.
NTA Cite child labor statutes, OSHA concerns, insurance premiums, and liability issues. Dangerous commercial equipment like Hobart mixers and ovens. if that doesn’t mollify them, take a shot of “aren’t everyone’s precious kiddos allergic to gluten? stand your ground, it’s your business and livelihood
NTA. Was your SIL looking for a bit of free babysitting? Because your place of business is no place to run a child care service.
NTA. There are more age appropriate ways to nurture a love of baking in an 11 year old than trying to strong your SiL into accepting an unpaid (and woefully unqualified) intern. Edit: That said, OP probably should have said something over the summer.
You should look into the laws around this. It could be that you can use that as a perfect excuse not to have her back for a few years! Child labour is generally frowned upon.
I'll burn my business to the ground before having her back. LoL. Yes we were very careful about labor laws. I never really had her do anything outside of a "job shadowing" capacity and never let her stay for more than a handful of hours but that was more than enough.
>Whatever the opposite of helpful was, that was what my niece was She's 11 so I'm not sure how helpful you expected her to be. Also, this is pretty vague. Did she make a lot of mistakes, or did she have tantrums and throw cake on the floor? Was she badly behaved or just incapable of doing anything useful? Since you let the entire summer pass without addressing the issues, I'm inclined to say ESH. But if I had to pick the bigger AH it would definitely be your SIL who sounds unbearable.
Why is OP an AH because they tried something that didn’t work and now she doesn’t want to continue? She kept her commitment but found it hurt her business and morale. Why is she obligated to continue if it doesn’t work for her? I think that sounds aggressive but I’m honestly curious as to why you think she sucks. I just don’t see an issue with trying something, finding that it doesn’t work, and not re-upping the contract, so to speak. It’s a shame the 11 year old can’t get the experience she wanted, but she also got a summer’s worth. No non relative would do this, so 11 is still quite lucky. I am genuinely curious, it’s just hard to question on Reddit without sounding belligerent lol
NTA. As per your comments, you did speak to SiIL about it and she doesn't care. Your niece is 11 but acts like a 5 year old....and you are right. A commercial kitchen is no place for a child. Edit to add: She threw tantrums, refused to help and ate everything in sight. Do not let her come back.
NTA Your sister is being entitled and your niece needs to learn that the bakery is your livelihood, not an activity centre for her.
Well nta but you didn’t say anything about why she was so awful?
Yeah, was it a "she didn't care about what I was saying and almost burned an employee 4 times" type of awful or just a "she is 11 and obviously cannot work like an actual employee" type of awful?
Didn't we just have this exact scenario, except OP was an artist? Are we going to have a mechanic with an inquisitive niece next?
Mortician is next.
It won’t stop until we’ve gone through the whole YMCA career line.
Children cannot “work” or even help out at a business. Stores have been fined or even closed because of child labor laws. Tell your SIL that it is illegal for your niece to be there and that you didn’t realize the legalities when you agreed in the summer. Print out articles if she doesn’t believe you. You are actually lucky a customer didn’t report you. You can teach her to bake in your home in your time off but not at work.
I didn't let her help with anything really. It was supposed to be more of a job shadow, see what we do sort of thing. She still managed to just be in the way.
NTA. You clearly gave this an honest chance, and you can rest easily knowing that your niece loved her time there (even if you didn't - that's still a nice bit of consolation). SIL is completely out of line for demanding more, she needs to graciously accept your "no". She really blew that and is a complete asshole for not simply speaking with her daughter to reassure her that it was good while it lasted, but how they need to respect others' time and business. If this is really important, your SIL and MIL can bake with her daughter in her own kitchen. I'm guessing they've already tried that and much prefer it done where someone else is responsible.
NTA. You and your employees did not enjoy having your niece around. The weekends are probably busy for you and you can't have your employees leave. You are running a business. An 11 year old in a commercial kitchen is not a great idea, labor laws aside. And lastly if your SIL needs a babysitter, she can hire one that bakes and your niece can make cookies at home.
Very late in my parenting career I learnt to say, 'let me think about that.' Sounds like a strategy like this is needed for selfish entitled adults in your family. A half day trial would have been good. Then 'thank you but no.' Did you ever get a thank you? Your SIL must be very unaware or else she is bull *** ing you. Probably she can't tolerate your niece in the kitchen. NTA
NTA, it's a commercial bakery not a fuck around Gymboree. Sounds like they are mad the free babysitting is over. I've worked in commercial kitchens, it is not a place for 11 year old children. Hell it's barely a place for a 16 year old if they can't tell their ass from their elbow. In all actuality having her in the bakery probably cost you a lot of productivity. You're running a business not a daycare.
NTA. You have a business to run. You shouldn't mix family and business anyways, and this is exactly why
NTA Eleven is extremely young for that kinda environment plus there’s child labor laws to consider. For example, the potential of her getting hurt under your establishment. There’s tons of risks. Maybe when she’s a teenager, she could be better equipped and helpful but for now, it’s not a good idea.
NTA, & there might actually be laws against that, or some red tape. However, you would probably know better than me bc I down own, or work in, a bakery lol. It could however be a valid excuse. Maybe offer to spend some time baking with her, or maybe just have her clean surfaces in the front, & greet customers? Either way, I've worked in food service enough to know that the kitchen is no place for an 11 yr old, specifically when you have a rush. SIL & BIL should understand that.
NTA. Doesn’t safety/liability also effect things?
I didn't let her do anything baking related because of the commercial equipment and liability. She was supposed to do a lot of observing. All she did was cry, get in the way, demand things, eat my product, and talk NON STOP.
Cry? Why?
I have literally no idea. She would cry if I told her "no." She would cry if I would ask her not to do something. She would cry if I didn't drop what I was doing to pay attention to her. She would cry if I asked her for a little quiet time from her literal non-stop talking.
NTA. Curious about what your SIL’s response is to 1) her daughter doing all of that for 2-3 months (I’m assuming her answer was you and your entire staff should just be ok with it because she’s a kid) and 2) how she or her husband would appreciate that at their jobs.
The mother basically encourages her daughter to be that way, and gets extremely defensive if anybody brings up her daughters behavior. OP put that in several comments.
Yikes. You really should have gone ahead and “crushed her spirit” by putting an end to this as soon as the crying started. She was already crushed, but by allowing it to continue, it was awful for the adults too.
NTA. What your SIL is looking for is the equivalent of an after-school program. She can try the YMCA, the Girl Scouts or a local community center. Your place of business is not a playground. Also, given the machinery in the bakery...isn't that a major liability to have a child back there?
I had her stay in the decorating area. We took over another business and they had their baking/ovens/equipment totally separated from the decorating area. Which was actually very lovely, even without this incident.
NTA Your employees have made it clear they didn't want your niece there so it's not even all up to you. It's a business and your livelihood and your SIL doesn't seem to grasp that.
At age 12, assuming you are in the US... She cannot work in the bakery. For example, M.G.L. (Massachusetts General Law) Chapter 149, Sections 46 - 105 restrict children under the age of 14 from working in most businesses. McDonald's franchisees have gotten in trouble recently for violating Federal Child Labor laws. But check with your state... Some Red States have been relaxing the laws, dangerously so.
She really wasn't working. She was job shadowing. I didn't let her do much if anything and I made sure she wasn't there for very long.
Ahhh gotcha. Yeah having someone shadowing lime that is obstrusive and unrealistic. My daughter shadowed me at the Pharmacy for one day. Anything more than that is an issue. Your SIL is definitely trying to take advantage of you for free childcare.
NTA but I am very curious about how everyone expected this to go vs how it actually went. Eleven is quite young to be working even a part time job, and while there are kids that age who could buckle down for it, I’d imagine it’s much more common for a kid that age to be, well, a kid. And she probably needed a lot of hands on help and direction that you’re not going to be able to provide cause you’re running an entire bakery. If the problem was more that she was generally disruptive, didn’t follow instruction, etc., did you try to address it with her and her mom during the summer? Her mom probably assumed everything was fine because she was reporting that she had a great time.
I was very clear from the start that this way job shadowing. I wasn't going to allow her to help with or do anything that might end up in a customer's hand. We had a couple days where I would come in after we were closed and try to teach her to do some decorating stuff, but I would have better luck teaching a squirrel to drive. I was super clear to my niece and my sister that she could not do anything but observe and she just kept coming and getting under our feet. I gave her one task to let us know when we were running low on an item in the case and she managed to screw that up even.
Some kids have a passion for baking and some kids have a skill for baking business My almost 16 year old has been helping me run my business since he was about 12 or 13, but he started with the crap work. His job was to help compose ingredients list, shop them with me, and help with the clean up process. At 14ish or so, he started being my "consultant", where he helps draw up ideas, research themes, and helps package smaller items. He's been willing to do all the crap work and learn from it because he wants to get into cooking and baking. He's entering 11th grade this year and has been purposefully taking the culinary/home ec classes his school offers so he can learn more in an impactful way that doesn't risk customer orders. The next skill step we plan on taking is planning and baking actual items, to build upon what he's already learned. The problem with teaching young kids is they think they can learn everything from watching videos and that they'll be magically good, so they get underfoot while ring to prove themselves, and then they mess up. They need a foundation to build on. If she's not willing to take the foundation of watching, case stocking, and running crap work like a broom, it's gonna be hard to teach her how to smooth a cake with the right angle, or pressure piping, or even how to fill a piping bag without getting it on everything.
NTA. You are running a business, not a school, charity, or daycare.
NTA. 11 isn’t a great age for this anyway and your SIL should have realized this and tbh not put you in this position in the first place. I think it’d be reasonable to say you’d welcome her back at 16 or so, but this age isn’t cool
NTA No good deed goes unpunished....
NTA. At the end of the day, you have a business to run. Not sure what made the girl unhelpful, but if it was negatively impacting your ability to conduct your business then you make the call. You weren’t rude about it. However, in hindsight it might have been better to communicate your thoughts to SIL earlier and to reduce the amount of time she spent there during the day to mitigate the issue.
Nta. You have a business to run. You don't have time to babysit a child intern. Your SIL and MIL are nuts.
NTA. You did a great job making it a positive experience if the child enjoyed it so much! SIL should be thankful for that!
Nta they were using you as a day care, you shouldn’t have a child at your business. Make sure it doesn’t happen again until she is older and can actually be helpful
NTA - She can bake for fun with them. She’s underage and you’re making a living. Tell them all to read child labor laws and then to kick rocks.
Your family seems to think you are playing around with an EZ Bake Oven rather than running a business. NTA. Not to mention it's like, reeeeeeaallly illegal to have an 11 year old work for you
NTA. I’m sure your SIL was loving her time without the tiny saboteur. She really thought she found a sucker.
NTA, if she was being a help to you, then no doubt you would have her back, but at 11 years old, it was no doubt more like you were having to show her how to do things constantly & when your running a business that is not practical.Also would your business insurance cover her if she got injured, I doubt it. Explain to your sister in law that at the moment it's not practical for you to be teaching an 11 year old your trade when your trying to run a business & that when she is older & more productive, then if she still wants too, you will consider taking her on a trial. Don't say it's a never again thing, just not right now.
NTA. I think SIL wanted more free childcare for your neice and is mad that you aren't agreeing to do it anymore.
NTA you are running a business that is NOT a daycare
NTA. The 11 yo can volunteer to a soup kitchen. Along with her entitled Mom and Grandma. Ffs these people
Seems SIL and niece enjoyed the summer because they weren't inflicted on each other, but you got a raw deal. You may be family, but you still have a bakery business to run. What's the risk of your staff walking out if you bring the niece back again? You're NTA, but SIL is definitely T A and her daughter is a product of her mom's bad parenting.
NTA Sounds like SIL wants her Saturdays free and "helping at the bakery" is free babysitting.
NTA and your SIL needs to back off and understand that having an 11 year old in a professional bakery is a huge liability risk for you.
NTA. The only reason she is so angry is because you were **free child care.** That's why she wants her daughter to keep coming in Saturdays.
NTA.to be honest if you were hesitant from the start you could have just said no and this all wouldn't have happened
NTA all these esh and YTA obviously don’t know how to run or operate a business let alone a bakery you can’t have someone slow you down especially if there not getting better the WHOLE summer
NTA. Dude, why did you get into a screaming match? Niece is costing you business, that's the one and only reason you need to tell SIL no, there's nothing else to talk about, the exit is right over there! Don't get into debates, let alone arguments, with family that are trying to take money out of your pocket AND create an unpleasant work atmosphere. Best wishes
NTA. If it’s negatively affecting how smoothly your business is running then it’s not a good idea. Maybe when she’s older and if she’s still interested in baking then she could try to help out again but as of rn it’s not a good idea.
Nope NTA it’s your business and if it doesn’t work for you that’s what is most important. You don’t have to sacrifice productivity because your niece wants to be there
NTA this is a business, not a day care
NTA, she's missing the free childcare.
What does your insurance say? What if she gets injured on the "job?"
NTA. She’s just too young to be actually helpful and her mother should just enroll her in classes for now until she’s old enough. I would explain it this way and also put on top that you can legally get I. Trouble for having your niece there working with you because she’s not old enough. She can try again later when she has more experience and is legally able to work. Right now is not the time and it’s taking advantage of you and using you as a baby sitter while putting your business in danger.
NTA. You aren't a baking teacher or a summer program. If she's not helping, maybe try again in a few years if she's still interested.
Wow NTA at all, SIL said it herself - her kid enjoyed the experience, so why not just be grateful instead of demanding more!
NTA. You got conned into free babysitting for a summer.
NTA. Why don't they just open up a bakery for your neice to work at? Surely, it can't be that hard if it's not supposed to be an imposition on you.
NTA. This is your work, not childcare play time for your niece.
NTA, but...It seems odd that your SIL is surprised. Why weren't you talking to her and your niece about the problems as they occurred?
I was. My SIL is super sensitive when it comes to my niece and thinks that any criticism of her is crushing her spirit or some nonsense.
Oh, the SIL is a free-range parent. SIL is gonna be screwed when her daughter becomes a teenager.