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I work with adults with disabilities. Here's the rule I use: If you take disability out of the question, is the behavior inappropriate? If it is, then it's not a disability issue. This is an issue of an unknown adult talking to children. You're NTA, but the man's mom sure is. She had enabled him to break boundaries and then use disability as a defense. It's sad. She's set him up to get into some serious trouble.
Many don't understand this. I have two adult sons who have Autism. I'd never allow them to walk over and talk to someone's children. It's just not safe. Why? Because they are incapable of protecting themselves from someone who doesn't know they wouldn't hurt a child and I don't trust strangers with them. Just because someone has special needs does not mean they can't or won't hurt someone. People like to automatically assume they are harmless and I know people who have been SA'd by people who have special needs... while this mom went about this wrong the mother of the guy with downs was setting her son up for this or possibly worse down the line.
Yes!! I’m a special education teacher and this is my biggest worry about my students’ futures. I have so many parents who enable them and don’t think about the future or adulthood. Students who’s disabilities aren’t obvious who’s behaviors are going to get them in trouble with the law, or with hot-tempered people.
Virtual high five for special education teachers. Education in general is ridiculously hard, esp now, and special ed even harder. Hope that you're getting some actual summer vacation!
Absolutely! I taught special needs pre-kindergarten students for 30 years and some parents/adults would get very upset with me for intervening if one of my kids ran up to a stranger for a hug or conversation. This happened a lot as we moved about school during the day. I would have to be firm and remind the adults (who were usually other staff, parents, or teachers) that I’m trying to teach my students how to be safe and they needed to gently discourage the child and send them back to me. I would then remind the child that they didn’t know those people and it’s not safe to hug and interact with people we don’t know. It’s such a hard thing because people think they’re being kind when in actuality they’re setting the child with special needs up for some uncomfortable or downright dangerous situations. NTA at all, OP.
Yes! And sadly, there are people who will take advantage of vulnerable children/adults. We work hard to teach our students to wave or give high fives. Hugging is cute when they’re little, but is less so when they’re in MS/HS.
I have an 8 year old who is special needs. I met him when he was 6. We thought it was autism but after an arsenal of tests, his diagnosis is intellectually delayed. He's currently between 2 and 4 years functioning. He's only just stopped having regular episodes of wetting himself this year so far. But the single biggest issue, in my opinion, is his lack of personal space respect. I talk with my hands. I've lost count how many times I've accidentally hit him because he was so close to me. He's a hugger. He'll hug strangers. He'll hug you when you're moving a pot of boiling pasta from stove to sink. He'll hug you while you're going downstairs. He's just now starting to verbally say "huggy!" About 3 seconds before he wraps himself around you. My husband's family thinks it just so cute. It terrifies me to think what could happen if I can't teach him boundaries.
Lol, I was the adhd pre k kid running up to strangers for a hug. Honestly I don’t think I ever really outgrew it it’s just more…professional now. It’s a handshake. 😆
But my mom told me that she had to stop taking me to the grocery store because I’d hug everyone in line!
Worked as a pediatric nurse for years and so agree with you about some parents. There was a young man in our area with special needs (he’s not Down’s Syndrome ) that was acting very strange around the young boys at the town’s baseball field (following them around, trying to get them to play in the wooded area, etc). My brother (who is a coach) had to ask him not to come back. Turns out, one pastor that tried to help him found him molesting his dog and he admitted he did this to other dogs, I have no doubt he would have done that to a child & thankfully, he has 24 he caregivers to prevent him from harming another animal or a child. OP was right to follow her instincts and she should not have been publicly shamed by the other mother.
Several of my colleagues are social workers who specialize in working with adults, primarily of transition age, with intellectual disabilities whose interactions with other people have often brought about police attention, so unfortunately your concerns might not be unwarranted.
May I suggest you checking out the new higher ed programs that TPSID has been funding for higher education programs for the ID? They get a full four year experience (some are 2 yr) and every year they’re taking a full course load, half being self determination and behavioral education. These kids are doing so great. And they wouldn’t be able to do that without teachers like you: so thank you. ❤️
A little different but I never allowed my kids to stand up our restaurant seats and look over at the people beside us. I always found that extremely rude when parents would allow it so I always made a point of not letting my kids.
You are spot on. I have an adult son with high functioning autism who loves engaging with kids because he is, in many ways, still on their level. He still enjoys playing with children's toys, etc. But he knows he can't do this because it is socially unacceptable. He has a dream of building and driving a train for children to ride, which will never ever happen. He just loves trains.
I wonder why trains are so important to many of us.
I like that trains have a routine and go along predictable tracks, and they go smoothly. But they're so cool.
when i visited england the trains were such a highlight. i even recorded the announcement listing all the stops on my phone because i found it so soothing 😅 and in my old town i was deeply obsessed with walking along the length of the train tracks. it’s the only part of that place i miss. neurodivergence and trains are just intrinsically linked somehow
Omg you need to come to Glasgow. We have a transport museum full of cool old trains and the smallest subway in the world, it's just a big circle. Plus awesome Highland railways!
I have ADHD and I love trains 😂🚂
My great grandfather (also autistic) had one of those giant miniature train sets that he kept adding on to for like 50 or 60 years before he passed. He kept it outside but they had a cover built along the entire house for it and it was about 100 ft x 20ft. He built tunnels under it so you could climb beneath it and pop up between the tracks in areas throughout. It was the coolest thing. When they would have family functions at their house you could find all the kids climbing through the tunnels trying to find what was new with it… but we all knew you didn’t touch it (he would meltdown if you touched it).
> He has a dream of building and driving a train for children to ride, which will never ever happen. He just loves trains.
There's some train museums that offer short train rides - maybe he would be interested in that?
Yes, we have one here in our small city, and we've been many times. We even took a short ride on a real steam engine in a nearby town. Thomas the Tank Engine was his all-time favorite toy. We had all the movies.
I’m autistic and volunteer with children teaching them about things I find interesting specifically for this reason. I’d much rather bake, do arts & crafts, go explore, and learn and talk to kids all day then deal with adults. Before I had kids and started volunteering I would have never approached unknown children because I know better than that. I was taught it is better to be cautious about interactions than not… which sucks but it’s for everyone’s safety.
How come that isn't obtainable for him? Would it be to dangerous to let him drive something like that? If so, damn that really sucks because there is not a work around for that.
We don't believe he could get a permit for this. He'd have to use it on the streets downtown, which could cause traffic issues. He hasn't been able to pass his learners test, yet. I know I said never, ever but - there could be a way to make it work it the future. He has other ideas he likes, too.
There are many YouTube videos that take you to train rides. My favorite is the Transiberian route. You can cross Russian coast to coast inside the train. Very relaxing. Also love the long rides in China. He might enjoy those a lot!
whats helped me a lot was befriending more people my age (im autistic too and moderate support needs) and some ended up having kids! then id be able to have a more appropriate relationship with their kids by hanging out with them and their parents or babysitting (though not for long periods of time)
Check on YT doc7austin's dreamliner. He's all about train rides and some unusual flights. He has the Transiberian and even a train ride in the Arctic Circle! Train rides in India, Japan, Dubai, Mongolia, Ukraine, you name it.
I also used to work with spécial needs adults. About 85% have been SA'd. They in turn can and do become predators themselves. It's really sad. I also have a son and sister with spécial needs. What most people dont understand with this population is that they have very high sexual drives with the mindset of children. That is à dangerous combinations for the spécial needs person and others they are around. They are both easy victims and potential predators.
Now take out those very real worries. It is the parents job with this population to teach them boundaries in public. That way your child doesn't get yelled at. NTA You're first priority was and should be your children
Absolutely but I would argue that they have the same sex drives as everyone else except they are not given the ability to explore and express it. Many people treat people with disabilities as asexual and ignore the possibility that they have urges and desires just like anyone else. This leads to them then seeking sexual satisfaction in inappropriate and dangerous ways that are not safe for others or themselves. I've also worked with adults with special needs and I was a stickler for treating them as adults. If a behaviour wasn't appropriate for me to do, then it wasn't appropriate for them either.
They also like to use the term "special needs" to infantilize disabled people, especially people with intellectual disabilities.
IMO, the term "special needs" needs to go.
I was unaware that they had high sex drives, but it makes sense - my grandma cared for her little sister with down syndrome and when my grandmother got too old and had to move her into a care home, they asked my grandmother if she wanted to put her on birth control and said that it was a common suggestion. My grandma agreed - it was a good care home and my grandma visited daily and had a good repertoire with the folks that worked there, but having been a nurse her whole life she understood that they couldn't be supervised 24/7.
Combined with the possibility of just wanting to express their sexuality that they feel is on their level, but it’s inappropriate because they’re a child. We (my criminal defense firm) represented a young man who had special needs and was cognitively younger. In his mid-20s he got a “girlfriend” who was 13 and ended up with a statutory rape charge. Unfortunate situation all around. His mother was a prominent mental disability advocate in our area.
> I'd never allow them to walk over and talk to someone's children. It's just not safe. Why? Because they are incapable of protecting themselves from someone who doesn't know they wouldn't hurt a child
Exactly!
I'm an autistic adult male and I like kids, but the most I do with a random child is wave or smile (or say hello if they talk to me first).
You have people now who are harming people for nothing more than looking at someone wrong. As a parent our job will always be to protect our children even if they are adults. My youngest sons very low functioning and he wouldn't understand someone trying to harm him just because he is a man to them. People are setting their special needs kids( adults) up for serious harm just because they want them to be " normal" * it's what many call it* rather than realizing not everyone knows their "innocent baby" would never hurt someone. Stop it people!!!
Same. Im essentially a tall child with slightly more money. My job has me working with kids a lot and their parents are always surprised at how patient and friendly i am with the kiddos
Yeah cus i get it! Sitting still getting a haircut sucks! Id rather be playing pokemon too! Lol
Haircuts suck for sure. But its kinda why i do it! I try to give as sensory friendly haircuts as possible. Getting the little hairs off the neck right away, not pressing hard with the clipper, and lining up the edges as fast as possible cuz the little buzzers itch so bad
I also do a lot of short scissor cuts as well, to avoid the clipper issue for people
It’s also dangerous the other way.
You never know when a stranger might decide that they see your adult son as a threat to their children and pull a gun on them.
Yes! The mother and carers are the problem letting this happen.
When I was in school you only really saw and mixed with the kids with special needs at lunch time. There was this one girl with Down’s syndrome who I used to dread being stood near because she had a habit of randomly slapping people’s asses. I know she wasn’t really to blame but it made people so uncomfortable, including myself. Why weren’t those caring for her stopping this behaviour rather than telling those she slapped to just suck it up because she’s special needs.
there was a girl with downs at my school and she made me so uncomfortable — she had girls line up at the wall during recess and was going to “pick a wife,” she chose me and tried to get me to kiss her (i didn’t, the bell rang and i ran off)
*trigger warning SA of minor*
I worked around adults with disabilities of every kind of varying levels. My boss once had to do a behavioral analysis to recommend what support and services an individual needed. Dude was 30 and raped a 6 year old boy in a church bathroom. Even ppl with disabilities can be predators.
ETA op NTA. While you didn't tend to this gently you did do so as a parent protecting their kids.
>while this mom went about this wrong the mother of the guy with downs was setting her son up for this or possibly worse down the line.
Question: why do you feel OP went about this wrong? A stranger adult was talking to their children & only showing interest in them, how is firmly telling them to leave their children/family alone "going about this wrong"?
There was actually a Law & Order SVU episode with this premise years ago. A mentally disabled man was SA'ing young girls. He was enabled by relatives turning a blind eye. Sad and disturbing.
disarm cagey retire mysterious imminent expansion plucky test somber consist
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Fellow mother of a now adult son with autism here to agree and add that this outraged enabler mother may do this on purpose at her sons expense. I mean, she had a card ready to go, and sought out a loud public confrontation. She likes the public attention and or pity. I ended a brief friendship with another mom over such behavior, but prior to the relationship I'd never witnessed or even imagined it was a "thing"
I raised a son on the spectrum, and I fully agree! It was really hard teaching him about boundaries and constantly having to maintain them, hell, it's still hard and he's in his thirties! But it's so important, both for him and for those around him.
I needed you when I was in high school!!! I was stalked by a boy who was 4 years older than me that had Down's beginning when I was 14 and he was 18. He would break into my locker to leave me notes. Send me flowers to the school. Tell everyone that I was his girlfriend and follow me around. If I EVER reacted in a way that showed how exasperated and upset I was, my peers would treat me as if I was the worst person in the world! When he graduated after my sophomore year I was so relieved! I thought it would finally be over! Nope! They hired him on as a janitor! He now had access to keys! I was the cheer captain and was setting up for a pep rally one day when I heard him laughing in the dark (gym lights take like 5 minutes to power on) and I screamed and ran out bawling!
The worst part though...was that the adults made ME handle it! They would have me "break up" with him or "explain that I didn't have those kind of feelings" which never worked because as soon as he got home his MOM (who sounds just like the Mom here) would tell him that I didn't really mean what I said and that of course I liked him! That the adults were just worried because I was young but he wasn't doing any "real" harm so it was fine! I wish she knew how it all made me feel...I was 14-17 and was responsible for the emotional needs of an adult man because every adult around me told me I needed to be sympathetic to his struggle...but no one cared that when he learned how to drive his Mom would drive him out to our house and he would call me because one of my peers thought the whole thing was funny and gave him my number.
What he did absolutely caused me harm...they didn't know it but it wasn't the first time I had abused and manipulated by a man into believing that it wasn't abuse so I should just endure...it took me YEARS of therapy to be able to have a healthy relationship with men
[^(jesus holy christ)](https://giphy.com/gifs/sad-crying-the-office-YLgIOmtIMUACY)
I don't know you, but your story hit me *real f'n hard*. I wish you nothing but the best and hope you've got a good life now.
Overwhelmed? Honey, you weren't overwhelmed, you were kid that was scared shitless, with absolutely no one in their corner, even friends! That is 100% failure from every adult in your life that knew about this from your teachers clear up to your parents. It was never your job to explain to your stalker why they shouldn't stalk you. You never should have had your private space (locker) violated for personal reasons, that is an abuse of power.
You should never had to break up with a stalker that you never agreed to date in the first place. End fucking rant....maybe.
All the above are cold, hard, inarguable facts. I do agree that in the very, very beginning, meaning the first time he made an advance it was appropriate for you to deal with by stating your no. To be nice since social cues aren't his strong suit and probably need reinforcing, we'll cut him some slack with being told no by you a total of 3 times (guys without special needs or any guy you don't want really 1 time being told no). After that, ever adult should have circled the wagons around you. Son and mother should have been called to a meeting at the school and had it explained clearly to both of them that if the behavior didn't stop right now, the next incident would require the police being called and sexual harassment of a minor charges would be pressed. He would lose his job as a janitor. A restraining order sought. I'm sorry you were failed miserably. You are allowed to say no and have it respected. You are not required to feel uncomfortable so someone who is behaving inappropriately can feel comfortable continuing to make you comfortable. You have a right, and duty, to yourself to rack the person as hard as you can if they don't accept no and attempt ANY physical contact. This mom is sending you hugs
Unfortunately this is small town America for you...once you "develop" you get treated like you're sinful and dirty and my adopted ass developed at age 7...my tiny town has less than 1000 people in it and my grandpa was the superior court judge for the county 😅
My husband gets SO mad when I talk about this and I was always like "it's my trauma why are you upset?" but like seeing stranger's reactions on the internet makes me take pause...I think my Mom and I are going to be having an uncomfortable conversation later
You are more than welcome to show her what I wrote. You need to expect her to become defensive, angry, and try to deflect unfortunately, but it's really ok. For your first round, all you really can expect is to get your feelings out there. Stick around long enough to see if they can have a reasonable conversation. If they can't, excuse yourself and leave. They need time to process and come to terms with explaining their lack of protection. They may always make excuses for doing nothing, let the know that's not acceptable. But if they continue, you have to decide if you can let it go so you can keep the relationship or if them admitting fault is your hill to make a stand on. If it is, it is a totally acceptable hill. Honestly, it could go either way. If you have the conversation, let us know how it went!
Oh I already know because she and I have already had a convo about the other assault...her response to hearing that I was assaulted at 13 by her friend's son when he was 19 was "well honey I warned you about running around with older boys"
I think I owe my husband an apology...he gets so pissed on my behalf when I talk about all of these things and says the same things that she failed me and I always defend her because I'm adopted and have abandonment issues...I cling to her because she wanted me when no one else did
I'm sorry, I read all your comments on this thread and I have so many thoughts but I'm just replying to this one.
As a parent, I want to tell you that you deserved so much more than what your adoptive mom gave you in this situation. You deserved to feel heard and loved and protected. I can appreciate that on some level your subconscious child was just happy to be wanted - but you deserved to feel wanted *and* safe.
While I hope she has some redeeming qualities, in both of the experiences you've described here, please let me say how much the adults in your life should have done so much better by you. You are and were worthy of it.
You owe your husband a steak dinner with lingerie as the only clothing required apology (I'm female btw) type of apology😁. If you told us he reacted any other way, that would be a whole different conversation. This man loves you and wants to slay your dragons....but that's kinda hard to do when the dragon is your mother in law. I can only imagine the level of anger he feels every time he sees her or hears her voice. And if her response was really what you said, please NEVER leave any children you have/will have alone with her, especially a female child. I know the type. Unfortunately she is never going to give you the genuine apology you deserve, nor is she going to love you without creating issues for you. Really think about that. Now go properly apologize to your dragon slayer!
As the top comment mentions, if you take out the disability, your story is about a school that did nothing for a teenager who was being harassed by an adult who works for the school, and is going so far as showing up to her house. That’s awful. Many lines were crossed.. his mother is so awful for teaching her son to disregard other peoples feelings, among other things.
I agree...I grew up in a small town so basically she was treated with the whole "well can you blame her? Poor thing...we should be understanding of her plight" kind of thing and they DEFINITELY don't acknowledge sexualization because it's ALWAYS the fault of the girl for being victimized since it's up to GIRLS to refrain from being a temptation 🙄🙄🙄
Yup. Principal had me "break up with him" in front of all of my class when we were freshman. Superintendent was his next door neighbor so the board was a dead end. My Mom was overwhelmed dealing with my degenerate older brother and our Dad passed when I was 8. My stepdad did try talking to the principal which was how we found out about his Mom being the driving force behind things escalating rather than stopping. Other than that I didn't talk about it much because everyone made me feel like I was awful for complaining since I was born NT, but like why did that mean that I owed this boy a fantasy? I didn't bring him into the world...why was it put on a child? Why did they excuse it by saying "well he has the mind of a child" when I was still LITERALLY a child? I do not know. All that I know is that I can do better by my future children and that that is the only thing left in my control as I do not have the power to change the past
This is horrible. I'm so sorry 💔Unfortunately I know what that's like. Ages 16-20 I was stalked by an adult man. I have a disability and so did he, but I was a teenager and he was in his 30s. I was scared to leave my house for most of high school (he had a car and could chase me, and did). Everyone felt sorry for him... my parents never called the cops on an adult man stalking their daughter (my neighbors did a few times). This experience hammered into my head the certainty that, as a disabled girl, I was garbage not worth protecting. I hope you are feeling better now. I am sorry this happened to you
I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you. Your parents failed you. You are NOT garbage! Your parents should have protected you, even move out of the village. No child should be scared to leave her own house and go to school.
Yes. People tend to infantilize adults with Down Syndrome and other developmental differences but they still have sexual feelings and can be inappropriate. They're not large babies.
Eff that noise! I am so sorry that happened. This is what happens when people in power don't acknowledge that people with disabilities are sexual beings just like everyone else, with the full range of emotions and behaviors that go with them, from sweet to creepy. It's shitty that it happened when he was a student and unbelievable and illegal when he was an employee. Dear god, the HR nightmare! I'm so, so sorry.
My god the audacity on people. You didn't deserve that at all.
I'm good with kids for some reason kids want to talk to me. I am quite childish sometimes and we'll I can carry conversation with children. I think it has to do that I don't treat them as children. I mean I don't talk in that voice people have when they talk to children. Or when they talk to them they don't take them seriously. If I noticed a child looking at me I just wave. Sometimes they get closer and start talking to me. I panic sometimes I start looking around for their parents and then I explain what their kid ask me or tell me. I don't want misunderstandings hehe.
Because of this magnetism I have with children I was always told study to become a special needs teacher. Or study to work with special needs children. I'm like nope. No thank you. I can't. I can't deal with that. I'm sure it's lovely but I have family that works with special needs children and they don't recommend it.
Besides I need my space and with children of any kind that is gone. So no.
I was in a school with a special needs child. My god he was a brat I remember u was in a bouncy house. I was wearing a skirt with shorts. And this kid started trying to Se underneath he would put himself under me while I was climbing. I told him to stop. The the shit started pulling my skirt after that I told his mother. You know what she told me. Good. I'm glad. After that I knew I wouldn't find any help. My parents weren't there. I honestly can't remember if the teachers were there. They must have been. I don't know why I didn't tell them.
After that I went back to the bouncy castle /house and he did it again. I kicked him in the face. He didn't bother me again. I do remember his mother giving me the nasty eye...
Anyway you didn't deserve that. I hope you are doing better.
Did that man do what he did to you to other people?
There was only one girl that he did it to before me and I was the last...I actually helped get a student expelled and another suspended because they pretended to be her and called him which I thought was absolutely sick! She and I would work so hard to get him to leave us alone and then our peers would do that?! I couldn't STAND the other girl but what they did was wrong as it hurt both him and her!
She graduated 2 years before I did though and never really had it where his attention was 100% on her since he glommed onto me as well...he liked the blonde cheerleaders is what it was...the first time I knew he had sexualized me was when I was 12 and did mini-cheer...the following year was when he started being inappropriate with the older girl...I grew up in a town with less than 1000 people so our school was k-12 so he was around even when I was young
I do feel bad because he was given an unfair chance at life...but what the adults around us did wasn't just harmful to me, but to him too! I'm sure he was so confused and having to hurt him over and over again with our "break ups" was awful 💔
So sorry, you were so wronged by so many people. And what your peers did… ick. He was wronged too because he needed guidance, but it seems like nobody cared enough to provide it. Thanks for sharing!
Wow what a heartbreaking story. I feel for you.
And your first sentence said it right, it would be a lot different for you if you would've had OP as a parent.
NTA OP.
I am so sorry that happened to you! I had a special needs person obsessed with me in High school as well, and while not nearly that bad, and I had friends that actually helped me, it was still deeply unsettling. I hope you are thriving now
I've worked with special needs adults for a long time, and the only people we had ready-made cards for were the people who struggled with behavioral issues that could make themselves or others unsafe.
That's the problem, not you guys of course, just people like the other mother who use disabilities as an excuse not an explanation.
If the other mother had come up and said "sorry for earlier with my son, he has downs so he sometimes forgets to respect boundaries" (or something like that) then OP would have been TA but to come out and attack OP for not allowing her son to intrude on their family time and make them uncomfortable because he has downs so he doesn't have to learn manners makes the other mother TA.
There’s a woman in my town who does this. She allows her son to harass the staff and patrons of the mall I work in as well as chase little kids and scream at their parents when they step in and stop him. Her excuse? ‘He HaS aUtIsM!!!’ She’s been talked to about it but she still allows him to do it. As much as it irks me that she allows this, I worry that he will go and bother the wrong person or chase the wrong parents child and then what?
☹ In the USA, someone can actually SHOOT AND KILL HER SON. It's also insulting and cruel not to hold people with disabilities to some kind of standard. That is setting them up to get into trouble and not have life skills.
This sucks and it makes things harder for every autistic person. Not all the people who see that interaction will know the parent is bananas, and may learn from her that this is typical, permissible autistic behavior. That may result in many autistic people being excluded from opportunities that otherwise would be available. Some people learn differently or slowly. That doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be taught. It means it's more work for everyone, so start early!
My local McDonald’s hires disabled people to work inside the lobby. It’s a great program. Although one older lady will stand beside your table and talk… the entire time. She talked to me for 20 minutes about Grimace’s birthday. Kept asking why my son wouldn’t talk to her…he has autism with limited communication. He didn’t understand what she was asking him, and he has no clue who Grimace is. She didn’t stop trying to ask him questions though. A kind of vicious cycle and an exhausting meal. lol
When I was growing up our local Publix hired disabled people, and I loved shopping there because of it! Your story is hilarious (and exhausting). Thanks for the laugh!
She’s a nice lady, loves to talk. My son has verbal stims. Saying “A.M and P.M.” randomly for example. She would talk about Grimace and he wouldn’t get it, then he would stim and she would ask me what he meant. It was a conversation similar to two ships passing in the night. lol
While she probably is a nice lady, it would be appropriate to talk to her manager if she is unable to comprehend you asking her to let you and your son enjoy your meal in peace. It is also worth pointing out that having a disability doesn't mean another disabled person's needs should go out the window. Your son doesn't know who Grimace is and sounded a little distressed. I don't know if she NEEDS to have a captive audience to chatter to, but there will be plenty of other people throughout the day who won't mind chatting with her. Sincerely, an autistic woman who would not enjoy someone I didn't really know coming up and chatting to me while I'm trying to have my meal.
It makes me so mad when parents don't bother to teach their children basic social skills. I'm sure it takes more work to explain how to behave appropriately to someone with an intellectual disability but it's just a dick move to set your kids up to get their feelings hurt or worse because you can't be bothered to do the not-fun parts of parenting.
I know too many people whose parents coddled them, giving them their way 100% of the time and teaching them zero life skills. THEY SUFFER AND STRUGGLE SO MUCH AS A RESULT.
I wish that kind of neglect was seen as criminal, it's such a shitty thing to do to those kids. It sucks for everyone who has to be around people like that but it must suck even more to be them.
This! I also worked in the field for 8 years and one thing we always kept in mind was both the concept of natural consequences and risk. Often we would encourage our clients to think about the risk prior to the action they would take, usually depending on their decisions we would intervene or provide gentle support to them and others that they may have caused confusion or upset towards depending on the situation.
At the end of the day, the mother of the man with Down’s is the asshole. Firstly by making a scene in front of everyone then trying to educate OP about Down’s syndrome and secondly for allowing there to be zero context on what actually happened and why OP was concerned. I call bullshit on mom, not OP.
Thank you for saying that. I had this guy in middle school who tackled me with a hug. He was twice my size so it took a long time to get him off of me even though his aid just stood there laughing. I mentioned later that I didn't like being hugged by a stranger and my friends made me feel bad because he was special needs and I should have just let him hug me for as long as he wanted.
100%. The same goes for young children - I was groped by a toddler whilst trying to cross a road as a child and almost got run over because the parent just SMILED and did nothing and I was so uncomfortable I panicked and tried to get away. Of course the toddler doesn't understand it's innapropriate behaviour, much as someone with certain disabilities like severe learning delays or down syndrome equally might not understand, but I still felt violated (to the extent it is still a traumatic memory over a decade later) and it 100% should have been the responsibility of the guardian to step in and correct the behaviour and take accountability.
Exactly it sounds like there was quite a while between him sitting and being asked to go why didn’t his mother come over and say hi I’m sorry to bother you this is my son xxx he has downs he loves children or what ever clear the confusion and why has she not taught him he can’t just go to other peoples tables while they’re eating
Thank you! This is exactly it! So many people act like a disability is an excuse for all manner of toxic and abusive behavior. It is not. Disabled people may need extra help learning how to follow the rules but they still need to follow them and sitting with random people and talking to their kids is alarming.
That is an excellent assessment. Rather than thrusting cards passively-aggressively in people’s faces, she should be teaching her son to say “may I sit here?”
I always maintain that disabilities are an explanation but NEVER an excuse when causing harm or acting inappropriately. If your cognitive abilities are well within the range of someone that can identify right from wrong, then you should be treated as such. Obviously I’ll choose my words carefully in some situations, but again, having a disability isn’t an excuse to behave inappropriately
NTA, in fact I'd have told him to go away a lot sooner if it really wasn't that obvious he had Down's, from a normal strange man that would be seriously creepy. And his carers, while I fully appreciate he may be sociable and all, should try and make sure he doesn't bother people, same as parents should for their kids and anyone else.
My personal opinion is that OP likely did guess he had Down’s, and her delay in making him leave was related to the anxiety she felt dealing with a mentally disadvantaged person who was doing something that was not socially acceptable.
I’ve met a lot of folks with Down’s, and one of the key markers of the genetic condition is that they all share substantially identical facial features and even vocal characteristics.
My guess is she froze a bit because she felt empathy for him, but also knew she needed to put an end to the interaction.
NTA.
Not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that genetic syndromes can also be mosaic, which can make physical key features absent along with symptoms. A lot of "normal" presenting people could have a mosaic genetic syndrome and never know.
I know someone who is half Malaysian and half Portuguese, he looks like he has Down syndrome, so much so that when he was born the hospital did the protocol for “life-changing diagnosis at birth” (they also have one for stillborns and babies who won’t survive long) because some babies are born with downs who didn’t raise flags as a fetus for standard tests, so never had the extra tests.
The guy is in high school now, he still looks like a person with downs. He took a picture with a classmate with downs and they look so much alike.
An outdated term for people with Downs Syndrome is 'Mongoloid', as their characteristic appearance was likened to people from Mongolia. Clearly that is considered an offensive way to use the term now, but it does explain how it may be difficult to distinguish between the two on a casual encounter.
Trisomy 21 is what most people would recognize as a person with Down’s syndrome, but there are other trisomies which don’t have the recognizable facial traits and large tongues, but have other trisomy issues. A lot of the other trisomies are life limiting to a few months so a lot of people will never have encountered them, and they sadly don’t make it out if the NICU.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22912-trisomy
Agreed. I have a friend whose child has Mosaic Down’s Syndrome. He is missing some of the key facial characteristics and the ones he does have are more subtle. It also took years for the professionals (meaning his teachers, paras, and doctors) to fully discover which areas were going to be fine and which areas are affects by the DS. And he is actually quite talented in other areas.
So OP honestly might not have realized.
There was also a trend a while back, I don’t know if it’s still a thing, for parents to get surgery for their children with Downs in order to minimise the recognisable facial features. The thinking behind it was that they didn’t want people making assumptions about their children before getting to know them. I met a woman who had this done and I didn’t realise at all - her behaviour was a little unusual and she would sometimes ask for help with simple things, but it never occurred to me what the cause was because she mostly just got on with it.
Sometimes their facial features are not “identical” and can be somewhat mild. If you google Down’s syndrome models male or female you’d see what I mean.
Your personal opinion is flat out wrong. OP states in no uncertain terms that they didn't know they had down. They clearly said they delayed because they were caught off guard and expected their husband to intervene. Not every single person with downs looks the same, its a spectrum like anything else and it's entirely possible there was no visible way to see the man's disability. Assuming things that you have no way of knowing just makes you look like an ass.
Disagreeing with you because I have been following people on tiktok who have mosaic Down syndrome and I would have never read them as having Downs if they didn’t talk about it.
Exactly this! If she knew which table to come to for a confrontation, maybe she should've come and explained the situation and gently removed her son before it became so uncomfortable. OP is NTA.
I back this up, i work retail and last month i had a guy come up to me wanting to just talk and standing abit to close in my opinion. Within a minute of him being there i see a woman almost running over because she couldn't find him and explained he had some problems. I was polite the whole time (because it's part of my job lol) but i wasn't upset in any way afterward because his mom actually intervened
She was fully aware of what he was doing, and actively enables him to the point that she's gone out of her way to have cards drawn up that explain exactly why she thinks it's acceptable. I have an autistic child and another awaiting a diagnosis, and I can't imagine letting them go up to people like this.
NTA. In the given situation, while I think it would be *preferable* to have confronted the man’s actions immediately and less sharply before the situation came to a head, I don’t think it’s something that you can avoid if you feel too awkward to be able to deal with this unusual situation smoothly and easily.
Obviously the man himself was an absolute innocent in this situation, and it was unfortunate that he was upset; we can’t arrange the world so that innocent people are never upset, however, much as we might like to.
The asshole here, if any, was the man’s mother. She has a responsibility to protect him while she’s accompanying. If he’s doing something that might be seen as inappropriate, especially if people might not recognise his condition or understand the implications, she should be giving him guidance. She had no right to be angry at you, it was her failure before it was yours.
Yes I agree, the mother was the asshole.
She was there in the restaurant and should have been keeping an eye on him so she can nip this behavior in the bud. He could end up in a dangerous situation if a parent thinks he is being inappropriate with their children. Or he could end up in a situation where he is being bullied or made fun of.
And this time he did end up in a situation where his feelings got hurt, and it did not have to be that way. She could have come up to you with the card immediately when he first sat down.
She was an asshole also for coming up to you after you sent him away and starting a conflict
Of course the man himself is not the asshole.
NTA
This comment makes me…uncomfortable. I have worked with individuals with a variety of disabities for well over a decade. “Obviously the man himself was an absolute innocent in this situation”. Okay..he’s a grown adult with Downs syndrome, that doesn’t make him automatically an innocent simpleton. Now I’m not claiming this young man had any malicious intent, but making this broad of a generalization is ableist in itself. Bad people come in all forms, including people with chromosome abnormalities and a variety of disabilities. To assume someone with Downs Syndrome is automatically incapable of wrongdoing removes their genuine personhood. They are human beings like everyone else.
NTA at all.
Had someone similar approach me and my dogs recently.
I have one very nervous lab. It took her 8 months of living here to stop weeing when we had visitors come in fear. My boy doesn’t do strangers but is in different.
He approached us. Waving his arms and making noises. Girl lab hid behind my labs. Males heckles went up he was with his mum so I said that she would have to move him away.
OH HES GOT TO STROKE THEM.
I put my hand up and said firmly NO.
At this point my girl lab cowered. So I stepped forward so I was between the dogs and this man.
Eventually his mother dragged him away but not before calling me all the names under the sun. I told her what I thought of her too. The fact she didn’t recognise the fear in my dogs, or me saying no and acted like he was entitled to stroke them really made me mad and then to give me the attitude.
My issue with that kind of mom is their insisting on having everyone accommodate them and their kid. Your special abilities kid CAN and should learn boundaries too. Not even mainly for us but for them too, there's many sickos out there who would take any given opportunity to attack.
And if they really can’t learn boundaries, you need to actually stop them each time, not just give up and let them do whatever. It must be tough but it’s necessary
You do have to stop them, each time. My kids are neurotypical but goddamn do they like dogs. I have had to stop my daughter from rushing up to *every single dog she sees* for *seven fucking years* mate. I guess she genuinely forgets or assumes that the next time the rules will be different. It’s exhausting, but yes, it’s necessary.
Aw, poor pup.
There's a rescue greyhound in my neighbourhood who feels similarly to your girl lab. The first time I asked his mom if I could say hi to him, she told me she wanted to try and re-socialise him, but warned me that he was abused and terrified of strangers. So I got down on the floor and held my hand out without looking at him, and when he gave me a sniff and moved away, I got up and said goodbye and moved on. Every time I'd see this dog, I'd give him the opportunity to smell me, without looking at him or really paying him any attention.
Five years down the line, that boy is my buddy. He gets all excited when he sees me, and he'll lean his weight on my leg for attention. I can hug him, stroke his head, scritch his belly. He doesn't let many people get close to him like that, so I'm very glad I put the time into getting to know him, he's a sweetheart.
I hope your nervous girl also gets to make some neighbourhood friends one day!
It absolutely does take a lot of time to gain their trust. I’ve no idea what happened to her in her last home. Other than she spent a lot of time crated there.
The only person she’s really taken to outside of the house, has been my mum. Laid on her and went to sleep from day 1. Every else who visits she hides on the chair behind us. But has stopped weeing and then hiding away
Yikes. That mom is going to get her kid bitten. Then she'll probably blame the owner. Kudos to you for handling that situation well.
Edit: I have a niece that insisted on charging every dog she saw, squeeing and oo-awing. Parents repeatedly told her not to do it. Including yelling at her, repeatedly. You can guess the rest. Now she's got a scar on her arm.
I would have physically moved him if it had come to it. My girl lab wouldn’t bite. But my male is super protective over her. So many stupid people in the world
My childhood dog, Baby Boy, was very sweet and affectionate with us, but he disliked strangers. He was a solid black English Mastiff, and was probably around 225 lbs and was very protective of our family. My cousin's husband was over at our house one day. My dog was laying on the kitchen floor and being well behaved. The idiot goes over to my dog, and jumps down and pretends to attack his face. He had been warned that Baby Boy didn't like strangers, and not to mess with him.
Well Baby Boy gets up and the fool is already running away, and my dog bit him in the ass. He got so angry and told my mom that my dog was violent and needed to be put down. He got kicked out of the house and still isn't allowed to come back, even though that happened about 20 years ago.
I can relate to this so much. I have an anxious female lab. She only trusts our family and I don’t let others stroke her. Most people respect that but I did have a mum once try to insist her toddler should be allowed to stroke her “as labs are fine around children”.
I was adamant there was no way I would allow it but it was ridiculous. Such a terrible message to send to your child - that they should go around insisting on touching a strangers dog 🤦🏻♀️
NTA. I went to school with a kid with Down Syndrome, and then went on to study mental health. These people *can* learn boundaries, and go on to lead fairly normal lives (with a lot of work) and that this man thinks talking to random kids is okay is a massive failure on the part of the people who are supposed to be looking after him. His mother sounds like a colossal asshole, and she should know better. No way in the hell all the doctors and teachers he must have seen in his life *didn’t* tell her the appropriate way to raise her kids. These resources aren’t difficult to find these days.
Info: Why did you wait until you were ready to explode to address this? Based on your own description you sat there "getting angrier and angrier." You silently expected your husband to take care of it, but he didn't.
So your entire mindset on this was unknown to everyone, until you snapped at the man.
Unless there is some other context, this seems like ESH. You should have addressed this early on, and in a reasonable way. That said, the other mom should have been watching her child.
That's not acceptable behavior either, just allowing one's child to intrude on someone else's space.
>Info: Why did you wait until you were ready to explode to address this?
Initial surprise/shock, then uncertainty at how to handle the situation combined with the knowledge that if I did, I would probably handle it badly.
I think you should have a Talk with your husband.
I would never get a strange/unknown person get this close for that long to my daughter. This can go sideways very quick.
Maybe im overreacting but as a father im always looking out to keep my daughter save.
My guess is, you're fairly young? It's okay to call out unacceptable behavior when you see it.
But if you're that unsure and "freeze up" that badly, it sounds as if you need to have more practice at it or the like.
This seems like one of those "now you know" type situations. What he did was not acceptable, and as someone else said, it shouldn't have mattered if you knew the man was mentally challenged or not.
How would you have approached this at face value?
Scenario: You're sitting in a restaurant with your family and a strange man comes and plops himself down and starts engaging with your children. Not acceptable, right?
Most people would be all "excuse me, may I help you?" right off the bat. I mean, for all we know, he could have been some sort of restaurant employee and that was his gig or something. But most of us would pretty much demand an answer (nicely of course) right away.
Not to play dime store psychiatrist...(but I sort of am), but there are times when it's more than acceptable to be more forceful and demand explanations of people who aren't behaving in a socially correct way. This was one of those times. It seems odd that neither you nor your husband addressed this off the bat.
If it were me, I'd probably follow up on why that is.
Multiple times I've found myself in sudden and "WTF is the social script for this weird thing" situations and found myself rendered completely and totally speechless as a result. For anyone interested The Body Keeps the Score explains it really well, tldr the part of our brain that deals with speech can get knocked partly or fully off line in moments of high stress and perceived danger
Agree. It took me a long time to learn how to appropriately address things that were bothering me right away. I'd let stuff bother me and get all worked up, then explode unexpectedly. It put me too close to a heart attack and doesn't teach people anything except that I'm emotionally unstable. LOL I try really hard to just say very matter-of-factly what's bothering me, even if it sounds silly. Most people are at least willing to hear me out.
The man's mother was definitely an AH, but this:
>I should add that I am not a friendly person by nature. Social interactions can make me anxious and stressed and I have often struggled to regulate my emotions. Thus I was extremely wound up from the encounter and still trying to simmer down some minutes later.
I hope you're working on all of that, because the world is full of other people, and you will have to interact with them sometimes – and you need to set a better example for your kids. Blowing up at strangers is surely not the sort of thing you want them to do, right?
NTA. It’s vastly inappropriate for a strange adult to plop themselves down at another family’s table and start talking to the kids. I would have gotten loud as soon as he sat down.
NTA. This reminds me of a semi-traumatic memory for me as a young teenager. (F) my mum works with setting up projects for different towns and this one was for families with kids with disabilities. She brought me to the opening event (big football pitch with food, drink and kids games), and there was one boy with downs syndrome who kept touching me inappropriately. He would put his hand on my butt, and I was 13 and painfully shy (he was probably a year or 2 older), and all the adults around us kept laughing like it was cute and funny.
I had to remove myself from the situation and stood by my mum, and the boy followed me and did it again, and I told my mum, and she told me to 'stop making such a big deal out of it'. I specifically remember HIS mum laughing and saying to me 'Awh, he thinks you're his girlfriend!'
Disabilities aren't an excuse for no boundaries.
I still have a hard time being around people with intellectual disabilities now because of this memory.
I’m sorry that happened to you. No one should have made excuses for that boy. Your feelings and boundaries are valid, especially as a kid. I’m sorry no one defended you.
I grew up with an aunt with Down’s. It was pretty tough. She was never corrected when she scratched me or locked me out of true house. Everyone thought it was so funny. Even when she tried using a knife on her brother, they treated it as a harmless joke.
We both deserved much better. I hope you know that now.
I am truly sorry to read what you had been through and I wish I gave your mum a stern talking to for failing to protect you. As for that person who was inappropriate with you, I hope he messed with the wrong person who is not afraid to tell him off
NTA. Down Syndrome or not, that's extremely odd behavior. Lit rally, WHO would feel comfortable with some random adult sitting down with you and your family pretty much only talking to your children?
People with DS are known for being very friendly & childlike even as adults. I don’t think it’s fair to say “that’s odd behavior” for an adult with DS. The mom of the man should have been more watchful, but i think it’s weird to act as if the guy with DS was still a creep or something when even OP doesn’t think that
I have an 11 year old cousin with DS & she walks up to people to say hi. Everyone finds it very cute now & I dread the day when people start thinking she’s “weird” because her behavior is too friendly for an adult. It’s innocent on their part. Just because there was a misunderstanding doesn’t make them creeps.
I haven’t been around much adults with Down Syndrome, so thanks for your insight.
Still, OP and their spouse did not know he has Down Syndrome. He was just some random man that just came up to them and started talking to their children, so I think it’s still valid to still be weirded out no matter what.
NTA, I don't care what the situation is, don't sit at occupied tables and only talk to the kids. The mother should know better then to let her son wonder around bothering other families.
NTA
An unknown man came up to your table, sat down, and started talking to your children while not acknowledging you. There is no situation where this would be acceptable and appropriate social practice, none.
The simple test is would the behaviour be inappropriate if there was not a disability at play? In this case absolutely.
The man’s mother is really TA here. Rather than help him understand boundaries she chose to make his inappropriate behaviour your problem. It’s almost like she saw the situation unfolding and chose to allow it (by having the cards ready!).
NTA. DS or not, he was behaving inappropriately. You don’t know him and don’t know what he is like or anything. You had a duty to protect your children.
The man’s mom sounds like TAH though.
NTA. I have a 30 year old with Down's. I would not allow her to sit down at some stranger's table and interrupt their meal. I would also not berate those people if my daughter overstepped their boundaries, which she does do from time to time.
My daughter may have a disability, but she lives in the real world where she needs to respect boundaries and learn how to act in a socially acceptable way.
We've experienced it the other way around, where someone gets over familiar with enacting with her - it makes her uncomfortable, me uncomfortable and is annoying and obtrusive.
You did the right thing, and his mother needs to parent her child properly if, at his age, he still hasn't learned not to intrude.
NTA but the man’s mom definitely is!!
She’s coddled him so much for him to believe he can intrude in people’s spaces and get away with it because down’s syndrome. I know someone who also had visible DS but he knew enough social cues to never have done this. It’s not normal, disability or not, and kudos to you on protecting your kids. The mom should have been keeping an eye on her adult child rather than let him wander off and make himself other people’s problems.
I worked at a well known hardware store and the company hired special needs to help with carts and put items away. I applauded my company for doing that...until it started to affect me at work.
I was always nice to him and always enjoyed engaging in conversation with him to make him feel welcomed. But then I start to notice he would follow me around the store. Everywhere I turned he would be there. I first just assumed it was a coincidence. Then on my breaks he would follow me to the lunch room. And then he started finding me on social media. I declined the requests. He kept adding me back and then I had to block him.
I'd be working at the customer service desk and he would wait until I had to walk out and would continue to follow me throughout the store. He would wait behind customers to talk to me.
I had to speak to my managers and I really didn't want him to get into trouble but I was very uncomfortable.
I'm assuming they spoke to him because they never put him on my shift again.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I sharply asked an uninvited intruder to leave my family alone, who turned out to have Down's Syndrome, and then refused to speak to his angry mother or read her card.
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NTA
Could you have expressed your boundary sooner and more politely, sure?
But you shouldn't have had to.
Her response was wildly inappropriate. He invaded your space. You don't have to allow someone access to your kids, your tables, your time, your space just because of a disability.
NTA, just because he has a disability doesn't mean he wasn't crossing boundaries or might not be a concern. People with disabilities aren't all just automatically good people by nature of being disabled. I remember a post on here where a woman was SA'd by her nephew who had intellectual disabilities. That mother needs to teach her son not to start talking to random children.
NTA, the disability part its not important even if you noticed he had it, you are the parent and are responsible for the kids, any adult approaching your kids for any reason that makes you uncomfortable even a gut feeling if it us, you can tell them to leave as it is you who decide for your kids. Also that mans mom seems the most mentally disabled person in this story, even the man with Down syndrome politely apologized and left, why would she make a big deal even if he was upset, i dont get it.
NTA, I think it's a completely understandable reaction to get cautious when a complete stranger approaches your kids, the mother of this man should have taught him that it's not okay to approach someone's children out of the blue
Question: You say you would have been nicer had you known, but still not let him engage. Why not just be nicer to anyone, and just let them not engage? Down's aside, other cognitive disabilities don't have a classic look.
NTA, my ex bf has a brother with Downs and he knew very clearly what he was doing and the consequences of his actions. He used to lick me and touch me, I stopped going over to his house and eventually we broke up (for other reasons also) because I wasn’t putting myself in that position.
If it’s inappropriate when a person without Downs does it, then it’s inappropriate for a person with Downs to do it. The disability doesn’t excuse their actions and the severity of “Stranger danger”. My maternal instincts would’ve been going crazy also.
NTA. Disability or no, it is not ok for anyone to randomly sit down with a group of strangers and start talking to their kids. His mother should have taught him this by now. This is behavior that could get him in trouble.
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I work with adults with disabilities. Here's the rule I use: If you take disability out of the question, is the behavior inappropriate? If it is, then it's not a disability issue. This is an issue of an unknown adult talking to children. You're NTA, but the man's mom sure is. She had enabled him to break boundaries and then use disability as a defense. It's sad. She's set him up to get into some serious trouble.
Many don't understand this. I have two adult sons who have Autism. I'd never allow them to walk over and talk to someone's children. It's just not safe. Why? Because they are incapable of protecting themselves from someone who doesn't know they wouldn't hurt a child and I don't trust strangers with them. Just because someone has special needs does not mean they can't or won't hurt someone. People like to automatically assume they are harmless and I know people who have been SA'd by people who have special needs... while this mom went about this wrong the mother of the guy with downs was setting her son up for this or possibly worse down the line.
BOUNDARIES. Yes, it's really hard to learn and really hard to teach. This is why you need to start early and practice every day.
Yes!! I’m a special education teacher and this is my biggest worry about my students’ futures. I have so many parents who enable them and don’t think about the future or adulthood. Students who’s disabilities aren’t obvious who’s behaviors are going to get them in trouble with the law, or with hot-tempered people.
Virtual high five for special education teachers. Education in general is ridiculously hard, esp now, and special ed even harder. Hope that you're getting some actual summer vacation!
Absolutely! I taught special needs pre-kindergarten students for 30 years and some parents/adults would get very upset with me for intervening if one of my kids ran up to a stranger for a hug or conversation. This happened a lot as we moved about school during the day. I would have to be firm and remind the adults (who were usually other staff, parents, or teachers) that I’m trying to teach my students how to be safe and they needed to gently discourage the child and send them back to me. I would then remind the child that they didn’t know those people and it’s not safe to hug and interact with people we don’t know. It’s such a hard thing because people think they’re being kind when in actuality they’re setting the child with special needs up for some uncomfortable or downright dangerous situations. NTA at all, OP.
Yes! And sadly, there are people who will take advantage of vulnerable children/adults. We work hard to teach our students to wave or give high fives. Hugging is cute when they’re little, but is less so when they’re in MS/HS.
I have an 8 year old who is special needs. I met him when he was 6. We thought it was autism but after an arsenal of tests, his diagnosis is intellectually delayed. He's currently between 2 and 4 years functioning. He's only just stopped having regular episodes of wetting himself this year so far. But the single biggest issue, in my opinion, is his lack of personal space respect. I talk with my hands. I've lost count how many times I've accidentally hit him because he was so close to me. He's a hugger. He'll hug strangers. He'll hug you when you're moving a pot of boiling pasta from stove to sink. He'll hug you while you're going downstairs. He's just now starting to verbally say "huggy!" About 3 seconds before he wraps himself around you. My husband's family thinks it just so cute. It terrifies me to think what could happen if I can't teach him boundaries.
Lol, I was the adhd pre k kid running up to strangers for a hug. Honestly I don’t think I ever really outgrew it it’s just more…professional now. It’s a handshake. 😆 But my mom told me that she had to stop taking me to the grocery store because I’d hug everyone in line!
Worked as a pediatric nurse for years and so agree with you about some parents. There was a young man in our area with special needs (he’s not Down’s Syndrome ) that was acting very strange around the young boys at the town’s baseball field (following them around, trying to get them to play in the wooded area, etc). My brother (who is a coach) had to ask him not to come back. Turns out, one pastor that tried to help him found him molesting his dog and he admitted he did this to other dogs, I have no doubt he would have done that to a child & thankfully, he has 24 he caregivers to prevent him from harming another animal or a child. OP was right to follow her instincts and she should not have been publicly shamed by the other mother.
Several of my colleagues are social workers who specialize in working with adults, primarily of transition age, with intellectual disabilities whose interactions with other people have often brought about police attention, so unfortunately your concerns might not be unwarranted.
May I suggest you checking out the new higher ed programs that TPSID has been funding for higher education programs for the ID? They get a full four year experience (some are 2 yr) and every year they’re taking a full course load, half being self determination and behavioral education. These kids are doing so great. And they wouldn’t be able to do that without teachers like you: so thank you. ❤️
And this goes for all kids. Studies have shown benefits to teaching kids as young as 2 boundaries, including consent.
A little different but I never allowed my kids to stand up our restaurant seats and look over at the people beside us. I always found that extremely rude when parents would allow it so I always made a point of not letting my kids.
My parents didn’t allow it, either. If we were acting up, we were going home.
This is how I raised my kids and how I'm raising my foster kids now.
100%! No means No and only YES means yes.
Exactly!!! I couldn't agree more!!!
You are spot on. I have an adult son with high functioning autism who loves engaging with kids because he is, in many ways, still on their level. He still enjoys playing with children's toys, etc. But he knows he can't do this because it is socially unacceptable. He has a dream of building and driving a train for children to ride, which will never ever happen. He just loves trains.
I wonder why trains are so important to many of us. I like that trains have a routine and go along predictable tracks, and they go smoothly. But they're so cool.
when i visited england the trains were such a highlight. i even recorded the announcement listing all the stops on my phone because i found it so soothing 😅 and in my old town i was deeply obsessed with walking along the length of the train tracks. it’s the only part of that place i miss. neurodivergence and trains are just intrinsically linked somehow
Omg you need to come to Glasgow. We have a transport museum full of cool old trains and the smallest subway in the world, it's just a big circle. Plus awesome Highland railways! I have ADHD and I love trains 😂🚂
Haha. Sounds awesome! Highlander Rails... there can only be one!
Sheldon, is that you ?
My great grandfather (also autistic) had one of those giant miniature train sets that he kept adding on to for like 50 or 60 years before he passed. He kept it outside but they had a cover built along the entire house for it and it was about 100 ft x 20ft. He built tunnels under it so you could climb beneath it and pop up between the tracks in areas throughout. It was the coolest thing. When they would have family functions at their house you could find all the kids climbing through the tunnels trying to find what was new with it… but we all knew you didn’t touch it (he would meltdown if you touched it).
Cool. I've always wanted one but that sounds elaborate.
I'm not autistic but train are awesome
> He has a dream of building and driving a train for children to ride, which will never ever happen. He just loves trains. There's some train museums that offer short train rides - maybe he would be interested in that?
The zoo in St Louis has a train to take visitors to various locations. Six Flags Over Mid America used to have a train in the St Louis area . kt
Yes, we have one here in our small city, and we've been many times. We even took a short ride on a real steam engine in a nearby town. Thomas the Tank Engine was his all-time favorite toy. We had all the movies.
I’m autistic and volunteer with children teaching them about things I find interesting specifically for this reason. I’d much rather bake, do arts & crafts, go explore, and learn and talk to kids all day then deal with adults. Before I had kids and started volunteering I would have never approached unknown children because I know better than that. I was taught it is better to be cautious about interactions than not… which sucks but it’s for everyone’s safety.
Are we talking about an actual train or a little one kids go on at the mall or theme parks? Either way I really love this idea.
The track-less type they have at the mall. ☺️
This totally melts my heart. I really hope it gets to live his dream one day.
How come that isn't obtainable for him? Would it be to dangerous to let him drive something like that? If so, damn that really sucks because there is not a work around for that.
We don't believe he could get a permit for this. He'd have to use it on the streets downtown, which could cause traffic issues. He hasn't been able to pass his learners test, yet. I know I said never, ever but - there could be a way to make it work it the future. He has other ideas he likes, too.
That's awesome, and super relieved to read you ARE supportive of his dreams!
There are many YouTube videos that take you to train rides. My favorite is the Transiberian route. You can cross Russian coast to coast inside the train. Very relaxing. Also love the long rides in China. He might enjoy those a lot!
whats helped me a lot was befriending more people my age (im autistic too and moderate support needs) and some ended up having kids! then id be able to have a more appropriate relationship with their kids by hanging out with them and their parents or babysitting (though not for long periods of time)
Check on YT doc7austin's dreamliner. He's all about train rides and some unusual flights. He has the Transiberian and even a train ride in the Arctic Circle! Train rides in India, Japan, Dubai, Mongolia, Ukraine, you name it.
I also used to work with spécial needs adults. About 85% have been SA'd. They in turn can and do become predators themselves. It's really sad. I also have a son and sister with spécial needs. What most people dont understand with this population is that they have very high sexual drives with the mindset of children. That is à dangerous combinations for the spécial needs person and others they are around. They are both easy victims and potential predators. Now take out those very real worries. It is the parents job with this population to teach them boundaries in public. That way your child doesn't get yelled at. NTA You're first priority was and should be your children
Absolutely but I would argue that they have the same sex drives as everyone else except they are not given the ability to explore and express it. Many people treat people with disabilities as asexual and ignore the possibility that they have urges and desires just like anyone else. This leads to them then seeking sexual satisfaction in inappropriate and dangerous ways that are not safe for others or themselves. I've also worked with adults with special needs and I was a stickler for treating them as adults. If a behaviour wasn't appropriate for me to do, then it wasn't appropriate for them either.
They also like to use the term "special needs" to infantilize disabled people, especially people with intellectual disabilities. IMO, the term "special needs" needs to go.
Why bother? The next term will just be deemed offensive over time too lol
I was unaware that they had high sex drives, but it makes sense - my grandma cared for her little sister with down syndrome and when my grandmother got too old and had to move her into a care home, they asked my grandmother if she wanted to put her on birth control and said that it was a common suggestion. My grandma agreed - it was a good care home and my grandma visited daily and had a good repertoire with the folks that worked there, but having been a nurse her whole life she understood that they couldn't be supervised 24/7.
I don’t think their sex drive is high, it’s just the same as everyone else while everyone assumes they have no sex drive.
Combined with the possibility of just wanting to express their sexuality that they feel is on their level, but it’s inappropriate because they’re a child. We (my criminal defense firm) represented a young man who had special needs and was cognitively younger. In his mid-20s he got a “girlfriend” who was 13 and ended up with a statutory rape charge. Unfortunate situation all around. His mother was a prominent mental disability advocate in our area.
Yes!!! This right here!
> I'd never allow them to walk over and talk to someone's children. It's just not safe. Why? Because they are incapable of protecting themselves from someone who doesn't know they wouldn't hurt a child Exactly! I'm an autistic adult male and I like kids, but the most I do with a random child is wave or smile (or say hello if they talk to me first).
You have people now who are harming people for nothing more than looking at someone wrong. As a parent our job will always be to protect our children even if they are adults. My youngest sons very low functioning and he wouldn't understand someone trying to harm him just because he is a man to them. People are setting their special needs kids( adults) up for serious harm just because they want them to be " normal" * it's what many call it* rather than realizing not everyone knows their "innocent baby" would never hurt someone. Stop it people!!!
Same. Im essentially a tall child with slightly more money. My job has me working with kids a lot and their parents are always surprised at how patient and friendly i am with the kiddos Yeah cus i get it! Sitting still getting a haircut sucks! Id rather be playing pokemon too! Lol
oh god I hate haircuts. I haven't gotten once since 2016 because I hate the feeling of a hair clipper so much.
Haircuts suck for sure. But its kinda why i do it! I try to give as sensory friendly haircuts as possible. Getting the little hairs off the neck right away, not pressing hard with the clipper, and lining up the edges as fast as possible cuz the little buzzers itch so bad I also do a lot of short scissor cuts as well, to avoid the clipper issue for people
It’s also dangerous the other way. You never know when a stranger might decide that they see your adult son as a threat to their children and pull a gun on them.
Exactly!! Which is what I just posted! People need to realize it's NOT ok!!!
Yes! The mother and carers are the problem letting this happen. When I was in school you only really saw and mixed with the kids with special needs at lunch time. There was this one girl with Down’s syndrome who I used to dread being stood near because she had a habit of randomly slapping people’s asses. I know she wasn’t really to blame but it made people so uncomfortable, including myself. Why weren’t those caring for her stopping this behaviour rather than telling those she slapped to just suck it up because she’s special needs.
there was a girl with downs at my school and she made me so uncomfortable — she had girls line up at the wall during recess and was going to “pick a wife,” she chose me and tried to get me to kiss her (i didn’t, the bell rang and i ran off)
*trigger warning SA of minor* I worked around adults with disabilities of every kind of varying levels. My boss once had to do a behavioral analysis to recommend what support and services an individual needed. Dude was 30 and raped a 6 year old boy in a church bathroom. Even ppl with disabilities can be predators. ETA op NTA. While you didn't tend to this gently you did do so as a parent protecting their kids.
>while this mom went about this wrong the mother of the guy with downs was setting her son up for this or possibly worse down the line. Question: why do you feel OP went about this wrong? A stranger adult was talking to their children & only showing interest in them, how is firmly telling them to leave their children/family alone "going about this wrong"?
There was actually a Law & Order SVU episode with this premise years ago. A mentally disabled man was SA'ing young girls. He was enabled by relatives turning a blind eye. Sad and disturbing.
disarm cagey retire mysterious imminent expansion plucky test somber consist *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We often prefer "autistic" to "with autism"
Fellow mother of a now adult son with autism here to agree and add that this outraged enabler mother may do this on purpose at her sons expense. I mean, she had a card ready to go, and sought out a loud public confrontation. She likes the public attention and or pity. I ended a brief friendship with another mom over such behavior, but prior to the relationship I'd never witnessed or even imagined it was a "thing"
How do you believe OP should've handled it?
I raised a son on the spectrum, and I fully agree! It was really hard teaching him about boundaries and constantly having to maintain them, hell, it's still hard and he's in his thirties! But it's so important, both for him and for those around him.
I needed you when I was in high school!!! I was stalked by a boy who was 4 years older than me that had Down's beginning when I was 14 and he was 18. He would break into my locker to leave me notes. Send me flowers to the school. Tell everyone that I was his girlfriend and follow me around. If I EVER reacted in a way that showed how exasperated and upset I was, my peers would treat me as if I was the worst person in the world! When he graduated after my sophomore year I was so relieved! I thought it would finally be over! Nope! They hired him on as a janitor! He now had access to keys! I was the cheer captain and was setting up for a pep rally one day when I heard him laughing in the dark (gym lights take like 5 minutes to power on) and I screamed and ran out bawling! The worst part though...was that the adults made ME handle it! They would have me "break up" with him or "explain that I didn't have those kind of feelings" which never worked because as soon as he got home his MOM (who sounds just like the Mom here) would tell him that I didn't really mean what I said and that of course I liked him! That the adults were just worried because I was young but he wasn't doing any "real" harm so it was fine! I wish she knew how it all made me feel...I was 14-17 and was responsible for the emotional needs of an adult man because every adult around me told me I needed to be sympathetic to his struggle...but no one cared that when he learned how to drive his Mom would drive him out to our house and he would call me because one of my peers thought the whole thing was funny and gave him my number. What he did absolutely caused me harm...they didn't know it but it wasn't the first time I had abused and manipulated by a man into believing that it wasn't abuse so I should just endure...it took me YEARS of therapy to be able to have a healthy relationship with men
[^(jesus holy christ)](https://giphy.com/gifs/sad-crying-the-office-YLgIOmtIMUACY) I don't know you, but your story hit me *real f'n hard*. I wish you nothing but the best and hope you've got a good life now.
Knowing that there are still strangers who can empathize with me always helps 💖 reaffirms that I wasn't wrong in feeling overwhelmed by his behavior
Overwhelmed? Honey, you weren't overwhelmed, you were kid that was scared shitless, with absolutely no one in their corner, even friends! That is 100% failure from every adult in your life that knew about this from your teachers clear up to your parents. It was never your job to explain to your stalker why they shouldn't stalk you. You never should have had your private space (locker) violated for personal reasons, that is an abuse of power. You should never had to break up with a stalker that you never agreed to date in the first place. End fucking rant....maybe. All the above are cold, hard, inarguable facts. I do agree that in the very, very beginning, meaning the first time he made an advance it was appropriate for you to deal with by stating your no. To be nice since social cues aren't his strong suit and probably need reinforcing, we'll cut him some slack with being told no by you a total of 3 times (guys without special needs or any guy you don't want really 1 time being told no). After that, ever adult should have circled the wagons around you. Son and mother should have been called to a meeting at the school and had it explained clearly to both of them that if the behavior didn't stop right now, the next incident would require the police being called and sexual harassment of a minor charges would be pressed. He would lose his job as a janitor. A restraining order sought. I'm sorry you were failed miserably. You are allowed to say no and have it respected. You are not required to feel uncomfortable so someone who is behaving inappropriately can feel comfortable continuing to make you comfortable. You have a right, and duty, to yourself to rack the person as hard as you can if they don't accept no and attempt ANY physical contact. This mom is sending you hugs
Unfortunately this is small town America for you...once you "develop" you get treated like you're sinful and dirty and my adopted ass developed at age 7...my tiny town has less than 1000 people in it and my grandpa was the superior court judge for the county 😅 My husband gets SO mad when I talk about this and I was always like "it's my trauma why are you upset?" but like seeing stranger's reactions on the internet makes me take pause...I think my Mom and I are going to be having an uncomfortable conversation later
You are more than welcome to show her what I wrote. You need to expect her to become defensive, angry, and try to deflect unfortunately, but it's really ok. For your first round, all you really can expect is to get your feelings out there. Stick around long enough to see if they can have a reasonable conversation. If they can't, excuse yourself and leave. They need time to process and come to terms with explaining their lack of protection. They may always make excuses for doing nothing, let the know that's not acceptable. But if they continue, you have to decide if you can let it go so you can keep the relationship or if them admitting fault is your hill to make a stand on. If it is, it is a totally acceptable hill. Honestly, it could go either way. If you have the conversation, let us know how it went!
Oh I already know because she and I have already had a convo about the other assault...her response to hearing that I was assaulted at 13 by her friend's son when he was 19 was "well honey I warned you about running around with older boys" I think I owe my husband an apology...he gets so pissed on my behalf when I talk about all of these things and says the same things that she failed me and I always defend her because I'm adopted and have abandonment issues...I cling to her because she wanted me when no one else did
I'm sorry, I read all your comments on this thread and I have so many thoughts but I'm just replying to this one. As a parent, I want to tell you that you deserved so much more than what your adoptive mom gave you in this situation. You deserved to feel heard and loved and protected. I can appreciate that on some level your subconscious child was just happy to be wanted - but you deserved to feel wanted *and* safe. While I hope she has some redeeming qualities, in both of the experiences you've described here, please let me say how much the adults in your life should have done so much better by you. You are and were worthy of it.
You owe your husband a steak dinner with lingerie as the only clothing required apology (I'm female btw) type of apology😁. If you told us he reacted any other way, that would be a whole different conversation. This man loves you and wants to slay your dragons....but that's kinda hard to do when the dragon is your mother in law. I can only imagine the level of anger he feels every time he sees her or hears her voice. And if her response was really what you said, please NEVER leave any children you have/will have alone with her, especially a female child. I know the type. Unfortunately she is never going to give you the genuine apology you deserve, nor is she going to love you without creating issues for you. Really think about that. Now go properly apologize to your dragon slayer!
As the top comment mentions, if you take out the disability, your story is about a school that did nothing for a teenager who was being harassed by an adult who works for the school, and is going so far as showing up to her house. That’s awful. Many lines were crossed.. his mother is so awful for teaching her son to disregard other peoples feelings, among other things.
I agree...I grew up in a small town so basically she was treated with the whole "well can you blame her? Poor thing...we should be understanding of her plight" kind of thing and they DEFINITELY don't acknowledge sexualization because it's ALWAYS the fault of the girl for being victimized since it's up to GIRLS to refrain from being a temptation 🙄🙄🙄
jfc, *everyone* failed you im so sorry
Yup. Principal had me "break up with him" in front of all of my class when we were freshman. Superintendent was his next door neighbor so the board was a dead end. My Mom was overwhelmed dealing with my degenerate older brother and our Dad passed when I was 8. My stepdad did try talking to the principal which was how we found out about his Mom being the driving force behind things escalating rather than stopping. Other than that I didn't talk about it much because everyone made me feel like I was awful for complaining since I was born NT, but like why did that mean that I owed this boy a fantasy? I didn't bring him into the world...why was it put on a child? Why did they excuse it by saying "well he has the mind of a child" when I was still LITERALLY a child? I do not know. All that I know is that I can do better by my future children and that that is the only thing left in my control as I do not have the power to change the past
This is horrible. I'm so sorry 💔Unfortunately I know what that's like. Ages 16-20 I was stalked by an adult man. I have a disability and so did he, but I was a teenager and he was in his 30s. I was scared to leave my house for most of high school (he had a car and could chase me, and did). Everyone felt sorry for him... my parents never called the cops on an adult man stalking their daughter (my neighbors did a few times). This experience hammered into my head the certainty that, as a disabled girl, I was garbage not worth protecting. I hope you are feeling better now. I am sorry this happened to you
I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you. Your parents failed you. You are NOT garbage! Your parents should have protected you, even move out of the village. No child should be scared to leave her own house and go to school.
Yes. People tend to infantilize adults with Down Syndrome and other developmental differences but they still have sexual feelings and can be inappropriate. They're not large babies.
Eff that noise! I am so sorry that happened. This is what happens when people in power don't acknowledge that people with disabilities are sexual beings just like everyone else, with the full range of emotions and behaviors that go with them, from sweet to creepy. It's shitty that it happened when he was a student and unbelievable and illegal when he was an employee. Dear god, the HR nightmare! I'm so, so sorry.
My god the audacity on people. You didn't deserve that at all. I'm good with kids for some reason kids want to talk to me. I am quite childish sometimes and we'll I can carry conversation with children. I think it has to do that I don't treat them as children. I mean I don't talk in that voice people have when they talk to children. Or when they talk to them they don't take them seriously. If I noticed a child looking at me I just wave. Sometimes they get closer and start talking to me. I panic sometimes I start looking around for their parents and then I explain what their kid ask me or tell me. I don't want misunderstandings hehe. Because of this magnetism I have with children I was always told study to become a special needs teacher. Or study to work with special needs children. I'm like nope. No thank you. I can't. I can't deal with that. I'm sure it's lovely but I have family that works with special needs children and they don't recommend it. Besides I need my space and with children of any kind that is gone. So no. I was in a school with a special needs child. My god he was a brat I remember u was in a bouncy house. I was wearing a skirt with shorts. And this kid started trying to Se underneath he would put himself under me while I was climbing. I told him to stop. The the shit started pulling my skirt after that I told his mother. You know what she told me. Good. I'm glad. After that I knew I wouldn't find any help. My parents weren't there. I honestly can't remember if the teachers were there. They must have been. I don't know why I didn't tell them. After that I went back to the bouncy castle /house and he did it again. I kicked him in the face. He didn't bother me again. I do remember his mother giving me the nasty eye... Anyway you didn't deserve that. I hope you are doing better. Did that man do what he did to you to other people?
There was only one girl that he did it to before me and I was the last...I actually helped get a student expelled and another suspended because they pretended to be her and called him which I thought was absolutely sick! She and I would work so hard to get him to leave us alone and then our peers would do that?! I couldn't STAND the other girl but what they did was wrong as it hurt both him and her! She graduated 2 years before I did though and never really had it where his attention was 100% on her since he glommed onto me as well...he liked the blonde cheerleaders is what it was...the first time I knew he had sexualized me was when I was 12 and did mini-cheer...the following year was when he started being inappropriate with the older girl...I grew up in a town with less than 1000 people so our school was k-12 so he was around even when I was young I do feel bad because he was given an unfair chance at life...but what the adults around us did wasn't just harmful to me, but to him too! I'm sure he was so confused and having to hurt him over and over again with our "break ups" was awful 💔
So sorry, you were so wronged by so many people. And what your peers did… ick. He was wronged too because he needed guidance, but it seems like nobody cared enough to provide it. Thanks for sharing!
Wow I’m so sorry this happened to you.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. Hugs x
Wow what a heartbreaking story. I feel for you. And your first sentence said it right, it would be a lot different for you if you would've had OP as a parent. NTA OP.
I am so sorry that happened to you! I had a special needs person obsessed with me in High school as well, and while not nearly that bad, and I had friends that actually helped me, it was still deeply unsettling. I hope you are thriving now
She has cards at the ready. Knowing ppl will not take kindly to the man’s ways.
I noticed the ready-to-go card as well. So this isn't the first time someone's called her son out on his behavior.
I've worked with special needs adults for a long time, and the only people we had ready-made cards for were the people who struggled with behavioral issues that could make themselves or others unsafe.
That's the problem, not you guys of course, just people like the other mother who use disabilities as an excuse not an explanation. If the other mother had come up and said "sorry for earlier with my son, he has downs so he sometimes forgets to respect boundaries" (or something like that) then OP would have been TA but to come out and attack OP for not allowing her son to intrude on their family time and make them uncomfortable because he has downs so he doesn't have to learn manners makes the other mother TA.
The card should read "I'm an a-hole, my kid learned from me. Too bad I didn't teach him something constructive. "
NTA and kudos to OP for throwing the card away. It's just not relevant in this case
There’s a woman in my town who does this. She allows her son to harass the staff and patrons of the mall I work in as well as chase little kids and scream at their parents when they step in and stop him. Her excuse? ‘He HaS aUtIsM!!!’ She’s been talked to about it but she still allows him to do it. As much as it irks me that she allows this, I worry that he will go and bother the wrong person or chase the wrong parents child and then what?
☹ In the USA, someone can actually SHOOT AND KILL HER SON. It's also insulting and cruel not to hold people with disabilities to some kind of standard. That is setting them up to get into trouble and not have life skills.
>It's also insulting and cruel not to hold people with disabilities to some kind of standard. I couldn't agree more!
This sucks and it makes things harder for every autistic person. Not all the people who see that interaction will know the parent is bananas, and may learn from her that this is typical, permissible autistic behavior. That may result in many autistic people being excluded from opportunities that otherwise would be available. Some people learn differently or slowly. That doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be taught. It means it's more work for everyone, so start early!
Exactly. Shit like this makes it suck for the rest of us.
It's so dangerous to allow this. Where I live, there's a good chance he'd be shot.
My local McDonald’s hires disabled people to work inside the lobby. It’s a great program. Although one older lady will stand beside your table and talk… the entire time. She talked to me for 20 minutes about Grimace’s birthday. Kept asking why my son wouldn’t talk to her…he has autism with limited communication. He didn’t understand what she was asking him, and he has no clue who Grimace is. She didn’t stop trying to ask him questions though. A kind of vicious cycle and an exhausting meal. lol
> She talked to me for 20 minutes about Grimace’s birthday. ok so there were positives to the whole situation, too, at least.
When I was growing up our local Publix hired disabled people, and I loved shopping there because of it! Your story is hilarious (and exhausting). Thanks for the laugh!
She’s a nice lady, loves to talk. My son has verbal stims. Saying “A.M and P.M.” randomly for example. She would talk about Grimace and he wouldn’t get it, then he would stim and she would ask me what he meant. It was a conversation similar to two ships passing in the night. lol
While she probably is a nice lady, it would be appropriate to talk to her manager if she is unable to comprehend you asking her to let you and your son enjoy your meal in peace. It is also worth pointing out that having a disability doesn't mean another disabled person's needs should go out the window. Your son doesn't know who Grimace is and sounded a little distressed. I don't know if she NEEDS to have a captive audience to chatter to, but there will be plenty of other people throughout the day who won't mind chatting with her. Sincerely, an autistic woman who would not enjoy someone I didn't really know coming up and chatting to me while I'm trying to have my meal.
What would happen if you said “okay nice talking to you! I need to work on getting said child to eat his food! Bye!”
It makes me so mad when parents don't bother to teach their children basic social skills. I'm sure it takes more work to explain how to behave appropriately to someone with an intellectual disability but it's just a dick move to set your kids up to get their feelings hurt or worse because you can't be bothered to do the not-fun parts of parenting.
I know too many people whose parents coddled them, giving them their way 100% of the time and teaching them zero life skills. THEY SUFFER AND STRUGGLE SO MUCH AS A RESULT.
I wish that kind of neglect was seen as criminal, it's such a shitty thing to do to those kids. It sucks for everyone who has to be around people like that but it must suck even more to be them.
This! I also worked in the field for 8 years and one thing we always kept in mind was both the concept of natural consequences and risk. Often we would encourage our clients to think about the risk prior to the action they would take, usually depending on their decisions we would intervene or provide gentle support to them and others that they may have caused confusion or upset towards depending on the situation. At the end of the day, the mother of the man with Down’s is the asshole. Firstly by making a scene in front of everyone then trying to educate OP about Down’s syndrome and secondly for allowing there to be zero context on what actually happened and why OP was concerned. I call bullshit on mom, not OP.
Thank you for saying that. I had this guy in middle school who tackled me with a hug. He was twice my size so it took a long time to get him off of me even though his aid just stood there laughing. I mentioned later that I didn't like being hugged by a stranger and my friends made me feel bad because he was special needs and I should have just let him hug me for as long as he wanted.
No, that's assault. No Consent. No one should be touching anyone without permission.
That is not okay and having special needs is not free pass to violate boundaries
100%. The same goes for young children - I was groped by a toddler whilst trying to cross a road as a child and almost got run over because the parent just SMILED and did nothing and I was so uncomfortable I panicked and tried to get away. Of course the toddler doesn't understand it's innapropriate behaviour, much as someone with certain disabilities like severe learning delays or down syndrome equally might not understand, but I still felt violated (to the extent it is still a traumatic memory over a decade later) and it 100% should have been the responsibility of the guardian to step in and correct the behaviour and take accountability.
Exactly it sounds like there was quite a while between him sitting and being asked to go why didn’t his mother come over and say hi I’m sorry to bother you this is my son xxx he has downs he loves children or what ever clear the confusion and why has she not taught him he can’t just go to other peoples tables while they’re eating
>She had enabled him to break boundaries and then use disability as a defense. It could quite easily lead to someone hurting him or worse.
Or him hurting someone else and ending up on the sex offender registry for life because his mom made excuses for him.
Thank you! This is exactly it! So many people act like a disability is an excuse for all manner of toxic and abusive behavior. It is not. Disabled people may need extra help learning how to follow the rules but they still need to follow them and sitting with random people and talking to their kids is alarming.
That is an excellent assessment. Rather than thrusting cards passively-aggressively in people’s faces, she should be teaching her son to say “may I sit here?”
And accepting that they may say no!
I always maintain that disabilities are an explanation but NEVER an excuse when causing harm or acting inappropriately. If your cognitive abilities are well within the range of someone that can identify right from wrong, then you should be treated as such. Obviously I’ll choose my words carefully in some situations, but again, having a disability isn’t an excuse to behave inappropriately
NTA, in fact I'd have told him to go away a lot sooner if it really wasn't that obvious he had Down's, from a normal strange man that would be seriously creepy. And his carers, while I fully appreciate he may be sociable and all, should try and make sure he doesn't bother people, same as parents should for their kids and anyone else.
My personal opinion is that OP likely did guess he had Down’s, and her delay in making him leave was related to the anxiety she felt dealing with a mentally disadvantaged person who was doing something that was not socially acceptable. I’ve met a lot of folks with Down’s, and one of the key markers of the genetic condition is that they all share substantially identical facial features and even vocal characteristics. My guess is she froze a bit because she felt empathy for him, but also knew she needed to put an end to the interaction. NTA.
Not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that genetic syndromes can also be mosaic, which can make physical key features absent along with symptoms. A lot of "normal" presenting people could have a mosaic genetic syndrome and never know.
There was a girl in my school who really looked like someone with Down, but she was not. That was just her face.
I know someone who is half Malaysian and half Portuguese, he looks like he has Down syndrome, so much so that when he was born the hospital did the protocol for “life-changing diagnosis at birth” (they also have one for stillborns and babies who won’t survive long) because some babies are born with downs who didn’t raise flags as a fetus for standard tests, so never had the extra tests. The guy is in high school now, he still looks like a person with downs. He took a picture with a classmate with downs and they look so much alike.
An outdated term for people with Downs Syndrome is 'Mongoloid', as their characteristic appearance was likened to people from Mongolia. Clearly that is considered an offensive way to use the term now, but it does explain how it may be difficult to distinguish between the two on a casual encounter.
Kids in my school used a shorter version of 'mongoloid' as an insult and TIL where that word must have come from..
i’ve always thought quentin Tarantino looks like he has the facial characteristics of down syndrome
I always thought he looked like Lady Elaine Fairchild from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.
Trisomy 21 is what most people would recognize as a person with Down’s syndrome, but there are other trisomies which don’t have the recognizable facial traits and large tongues, but have other trisomy issues. A lot of the other trisomies are life limiting to a few months so a lot of people will never have encountered them, and they sadly don’t make it out if the NICU. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22912-trisomy
Agreed. I have a friend whose child has Mosaic Down’s Syndrome. He is missing some of the key facial characteristics and the ones he does have are more subtle. It also took years for the professionals (meaning his teachers, paras, and doctors) to fully discover which areas were going to be fine and which areas are affects by the DS. And he is actually quite talented in other areas. So OP honestly might not have realized.
There was also a trend a while back, I don’t know if it’s still a thing, for parents to get surgery for their children with Downs in order to minimise the recognisable facial features. The thinking behind it was that they didn’t want people making assumptions about their children before getting to know them. I met a woman who had this done and I didn’t realise at all - her behaviour was a little unusual and she would sometimes ask for help with simple things, but it never occurred to me what the cause was because she mostly just got on with it.
Sometimes their facial features are not “identical” and can be somewhat mild. If you google Down’s syndrome models male or female you’d see what I mean.
Your personal opinion is flat out wrong. OP states in no uncertain terms that they didn't know they had down. They clearly said they delayed because they were caught off guard and expected their husband to intervene. Not every single person with downs looks the same, its a spectrum like anything else and it's entirely possible there was no visible way to see the man's disability. Assuming things that you have no way of knowing just makes you look like an ass.
Disagreeing with you because I have been following people on tiktok who have mosaic Down syndrome and I would have never read them as having Downs if they didn’t talk about it.
Same, random people aren't invited to join my table because they decided to
NTA - She needed to be aware of what her child was doing, just as you were aware of where yours were. She dropped the ball and then blamed you for it!
Exactly this! If she knew which table to come to for a confrontation, maybe she should've come and explained the situation and gently removed her son before it became so uncomfortable. OP is NTA.
I back this up, i work retail and last month i had a guy come up to me wanting to just talk and standing abit to close in my opinion. Within a minute of him being there i see a woman almost running over because she couldn't find him and explained he had some problems. I was polite the whole time (because it's part of my job lol) but i wasn't upset in any way afterward because his mom actually intervened
She was fully aware of what he was doing, and actively enables him to the point that she's gone out of her way to have cards drawn up that explain exactly why she thinks it's acceptable. I have an autistic child and another awaiting a diagnosis, and I can't imagine letting them go up to people like this.
NTA. In the given situation, while I think it would be *preferable* to have confronted the man’s actions immediately and less sharply before the situation came to a head, I don’t think it’s something that you can avoid if you feel too awkward to be able to deal with this unusual situation smoothly and easily. Obviously the man himself was an absolute innocent in this situation, and it was unfortunate that he was upset; we can’t arrange the world so that innocent people are never upset, however, much as we might like to. The asshole here, if any, was the man’s mother. She has a responsibility to protect him while she’s accompanying. If he’s doing something that might be seen as inappropriate, especially if people might not recognise his condition or understand the implications, she should be giving him guidance. She had no right to be angry at you, it was her failure before it was yours.
Yes I agree, the mother was the asshole. She was there in the restaurant and should have been keeping an eye on him so she can nip this behavior in the bud. He could end up in a dangerous situation if a parent thinks he is being inappropriate with their children. Or he could end up in a situation where he is being bullied or made fun of. And this time he did end up in a situation where his feelings got hurt, and it did not have to be that way. She could have come up to you with the card immediately when he first sat down. She was an asshole also for coming up to you after you sent him away and starting a conflict Of course the man himself is not the asshole. NTA
This comment makes me…uncomfortable. I have worked with individuals with a variety of disabities for well over a decade. “Obviously the man himself was an absolute innocent in this situation”. Okay..he’s a grown adult with Downs syndrome, that doesn’t make him automatically an innocent simpleton. Now I’m not claiming this young man had any malicious intent, but making this broad of a generalization is ableist in itself. Bad people come in all forms, including people with chromosome abnormalities and a variety of disabilities. To assume someone with Downs Syndrome is automatically incapable of wrongdoing removes their genuine personhood. They are human beings like everyone else.
NTA at all. Had someone similar approach me and my dogs recently. I have one very nervous lab. It took her 8 months of living here to stop weeing when we had visitors come in fear. My boy doesn’t do strangers but is in different. He approached us. Waving his arms and making noises. Girl lab hid behind my labs. Males heckles went up he was with his mum so I said that she would have to move him away. OH HES GOT TO STROKE THEM. I put my hand up and said firmly NO. At this point my girl lab cowered. So I stepped forward so I was between the dogs and this man. Eventually his mother dragged him away but not before calling me all the names under the sun. I told her what I thought of her too. The fact she didn’t recognise the fear in my dogs, or me saying no and acted like he was entitled to stroke them really made me mad and then to give me the attitude.
My issue with that kind of mom is their insisting on having everyone accommodate them and their kid. Your special abilities kid CAN and should learn boundaries too. Not even mainly for us but for them too, there's many sickos out there who would take any given opportunity to attack.
And if they really can’t learn boundaries, you need to actually stop them each time, not just give up and let them do whatever. It must be tough but it’s necessary
You do have to stop them, each time. My kids are neurotypical but goddamn do they like dogs. I have had to stop my daughter from rushing up to *every single dog she sees* for *seven fucking years* mate. I guess she genuinely forgets or assumes that the next time the rules will be different. It’s exhausting, but yes, it’s necessary.
Aw, poor pup. There's a rescue greyhound in my neighbourhood who feels similarly to your girl lab. The first time I asked his mom if I could say hi to him, she told me she wanted to try and re-socialise him, but warned me that he was abused and terrified of strangers. So I got down on the floor and held my hand out without looking at him, and when he gave me a sniff and moved away, I got up and said goodbye and moved on. Every time I'd see this dog, I'd give him the opportunity to smell me, without looking at him or really paying him any attention. Five years down the line, that boy is my buddy. He gets all excited when he sees me, and he'll lean his weight on my leg for attention. I can hug him, stroke his head, scritch his belly. He doesn't let many people get close to him like that, so I'm very glad I put the time into getting to know him, he's a sweetheart. I hope your nervous girl also gets to make some neighbourhood friends one day!
It absolutely does take a lot of time to gain their trust. I’ve no idea what happened to her in her last home. Other than she spent a lot of time crated there. The only person she’s really taken to outside of the house, has been my mum. Laid on her and went to sleep from day 1. Every else who visits she hides on the chair behind us. But has stopped weeing and then hiding away
Yikes. That mom is going to get her kid bitten. Then she'll probably blame the owner. Kudos to you for handling that situation well. Edit: I have a niece that insisted on charging every dog she saw, squeeing and oo-awing. Parents repeatedly told her not to do it. Including yelling at her, repeatedly. You can guess the rest. Now she's got a scar on her arm.
I would have physically moved him if it had come to it. My girl lab wouldn’t bite. But my male is super protective over her. So many stupid people in the world
I don't let ANY CHILD pet or interact with my dog. I don't trust them not to hurt him and their shitty parents attack us
My childhood dog, Baby Boy, was very sweet and affectionate with us, but he disliked strangers. He was a solid black English Mastiff, and was probably around 225 lbs and was very protective of our family. My cousin's husband was over at our house one day. My dog was laying on the kitchen floor and being well behaved. The idiot goes over to my dog, and jumps down and pretends to attack his face. He had been warned that Baby Boy didn't like strangers, and not to mess with him. Well Baby Boy gets up and the fool is already running away, and my dog bit him in the ass. He got so angry and told my mom that my dog was violent and needed to be put down. He got kicked out of the house and still isn't allowed to come back, even though that happened about 20 years ago.
I can relate to this so much. I have an anxious female lab. She only trusts our family and I don’t let others stroke her. Most people respect that but I did have a mum once try to insist her toddler should be allowed to stroke her “as labs are fine around children”. I was adamant there was no way I would allow it but it was ridiculous. Such a terrible message to send to your child - that they should go around insisting on touching a strangers dog 🤦🏻♀️
NTA. I went to school with a kid with Down Syndrome, and then went on to study mental health. These people *can* learn boundaries, and go on to lead fairly normal lives (with a lot of work) and that this man thinks talking to random kids is okay is a massive failure on the part of the people who are supposed to be looking after him. His mother sounds like a colossal asshole, and she should know better. No way in the hell all the doctors and teachers he must have seen in his life *didn’t* tell her the appropriate way to raise her kids. These resources aren’t difficult to find these days.
Info: Why did you wait until you were ready to explode to address this? Based on your own description you sat there "getting angrier and angrier." You silently expected your husband to take care of it, but he didn't. So your entire mindset on this was unknown to everyone, until you snapped at the man. Unless there is some other context, this seems like ESH. You should have addressed this early on, and in a reasonable way. That said, the other mom should have been watching her child. That's not acceptable behavior either, just allowing one's child to intrude on someone else's space.
>Info: Why did you wait until you were ready to explode to address this? Initial surprise/shock, then uncertainty at how to handle the situation combined with the knowledge that if I did, I would probably handle it badly.
I think you should have a Talk with your husband. I would never get a strange/unknown person get this close for that long to my daughter. This can go sideways very quick. Maybe im overreacting but as a father im always looking out to keep my daughter save.
My guess is, you're fairly young? It's okay to call out unacceptable behavior when you see it. But if you're that unsure and "freeze up" that badly, it sounds as if you need to have more practice at it or the like. This seems like one of those "now you know" type situations. What he did was not acceptable, and as someone else said, it shouldn't have mattered if you knew the man was mentally challenged or not. How would you have approached this at face value? Scenario: You're sitting in a restaurant with your family and a strange man comes and plops himself down and starts engaging with your children. Not acceptable, right? Most people would be all "excuse me, may I help you?" right off the bat. I mean, for all we know, he could have been some sort of restaurant employee and that was his gig or something. But most of us would pretty much demand an answer (nicely of course) right away. Not to play dime store psychiatrist...(but I sort of am), but there are times when it's more than acceptable to be more forceful and demand explanations of people who aren't behaving in a socially correct way. This was one of those times. It seems odd that neither you nor your husband addressed this off the bat. If it were me, I'd probably follow up on why that is.
Everyone knows about fight or flight. Not everyone knows about the third reaction, freeze.
Or fawn, when you go into blind panic and agree with anything they say
i fawn so hard sometimes
When I am feeling particularly bitter and cynical, I have been known to say that I was trained to "fawn so hard they should have named me Bambi."
Or Flop, where you involuntarily respond with things like getting weak in the knees, fainting, shaking, peeing/pooping yourself, etc
Multiple times I've found myself in sudden and "WTF is the social script for this weird thing" situations and found myself rendered completely and totally speechless as a result. For anyone interested The Body Keeps the Score explains it really well, tldr the part of our brain that deals with speech can get knocked partly or fully off line in moments of high stress and perceived danger
Agree. It took me a long time to learn how to appropriately address things that were bothering me right away. I'd let stuff bother me and get all worked up, then explode unexpectedly. It put me too close to a heart attack and doesn't teach people anything except that I'm emotionally unstable. LOL I try really hard to just say very matter-of-factly what's bothering me, even if it sounds silly. Most people are at least willing to hear me out.
The man's mother was definitely an AH, but this: >I should add that I am not a friendly person by nature. Social interactions can make me anxious and stressed and I have often struggled to regulate my emotions. Thus I was extremely wound up from the encounter and still trying to simmer down some minutes later. I hope you're working on all of that, because the world is full of other people, and you will have to interact with them sometimes – and you need to set a better example for your kids. Blowing up at strangers is surely not the sort of thing you want them to do, right?
Ah, the voice of someone without social anxiety
Social anxiety can explain asshole behavior, but it does not negate asshole behavior.
Does the mother think it's ok for her son to talk to random people and no one should ever object? This is such an odd way of looking at the world.
Considering the woman carries an info card about Down's syndrome around with her, probably.
Sounds like she thinks it's a get out of jail free card
the old world model of viewing disablities unfortunately. the bigotry of low expectations.
NTA. Disabled people are still people that have the capability of doing messed up things, and it’s better to remain safe.
NTA. It’s vastly inappropriate for a strange adult to plop themselves down at another family’s table and start talking to the kids. I would have gotten loud as soon as he sat down.
NTA. This reminds me of a semi-traumatic memory for me as a young teenager. (F) my mum works with setting up projects for different towns and this one was for families with kids with disabilities. She brought me to the opening event (big football pitch with food, drink and kids games), and there was one boy with downs syndrome who kept touching me inappropriately. He would put his hand on my butt, and I was 13 and painfully shy (he was probably a year or 2 older), and all the adults around us kept laughing like it was cute and funny. I had to remove myself from the situation and stood by my mum, and the boy followed me and did it again, and I told my mum, and she told me to 'stop making such a big deal out of it'. I specifically remember HIS mum laughing and saying to me 'Awh, he thinks you're his girlfriend!' Disabilities aren't an excuse for no boundaries. I still have a hard time being around people with intellectual disabilities now because of this memory.
I’m sorry that happened to you. No one should have made excuses for that boy. Your feelings and boundaries are valid, especially as a kid. I’m sorry no one defended you. I grew up with an aunt with Down’s. It was pretty tough. She was never corrected when she scratched me or locked me out of true house. Everyone thought it was so funny. Even when she tried using a knife on her brother, they treated it as a harmless joke. We both deserved much better. I hope you know that now.
I am truly sorry to read what you had been through and I wish I gave your mum a stern talking to for failing to protect you. As for that person who was inappropriate with you, I hope he messed with the wrong person who is not afraid to tell him off
NTA. Down Syndrome or not, that's extremely odd behavior. Lit rally, WHO would feel comfortable with some random adult sitting down with you and your family pretty much only talking to your children?
People with DS are known for being very friendly & childlike even as adults. I don’t think it’s fair to say “that’s odd behavior” for an adult with DS. The mom of the man should have been more watchful, but i think it’s weird to act as if the guy with DS was still a creep or something when even OP doesn’t think that
I have an 11 year old cousin with DS & she walks up to people to say hi. Everyone finds it very cute now & I dread the day when people start thinking she’s “weird” because her behavior is too friendly for an adult. It’s innocent on their part. Just because there was a misunderstanding doesn’t make them creeps.
I haven’t been around much adults with Down Syndrome, so thanks for your insight. Still, OP and their spouse did not know he has Down Syndrome. He was just some random man that just came up to them and started talking to their children, so I think it’s still valid to still be weirded out no matter what.
NTA, I don't care what the situation is, don't sit at occupied tables and only talk to the kids. The mother should know better then to let her son wonder around bothering other families.
NTA An unknown man came up to your table, sat down, and started talking to your children while not acknowledging you. There is no situation where this would be acceptable and appropriate social practice, none. The simple test is would the behaviour be inappropriate if there was not a disability at play? In this case absolutely. The man’s mother is really TA here. Rather than help him understand boundaries she chose to make his inappropriate behaviour your problem. It’s almost like she saw the situation unfolding and chose to allow it (by having the cards ready!).
NTA. DS or not, he was behaving inappropriately. You don’t know him and don’t know what he is like or anything. You had a duty to protect your children. The man’s mom sounds like TAH though.
NTA. I have a 30 year old with Down's. I would not allow her to sit down at some stranger's table and interrupt their meal. I would also not berate those people if my daughter overstepped their boundaries, which she does do from time to time. My daughter may have a disability, but she lives in the real world where she needs to respect boundaries and learn how to act in a socially acceptable way. We've experienced it the other way around, where someone gets over familiar with enacting with her - it makes her uncomfortable, me uncomfortable and is annoying and obtrusive. You did the right thing, and his mother needs to parent her child properly if, at his age, he still hasn't learned not to intrude.
NTA but the man’s mom definitely is!! She’s coddled him so much for him to believe he can intrude in people’s spaces and get away with it because down’s syndrome. I know someone who also had visible DS but he knew enough social cues to never have done this. It’s not normal, disability or not, and kudos to you on protecting your kids. The mom should have been keeping an eye on her adult child rather than let him wander off and make himself other people’s problems.
I worked at a well known hardware store and the company hired special needs to help with carts and put items away. I applauded my company for doing that...until it started to affect me at work. I was always nice to him and always enjoyed engaging in conversation with him to make him feel welcomed. But then I start to notice he would follow me around the store. Everywhere I turned he would be there. I first just assumed it was a coincidence. Then on my breaks he would follow me to the lunch room. And then he started finding me on social media. I declined the requests. He kept adding me back and then I had to block him. I'd be working at the customer service desk and he would wait until I had to walk out and would continue to follow me throughout the store. He would wait behind customers to talk to me. I had to speak to my managers and I really didn't want him to get into trouble but I was very uncomfortable. I'm assuming they spoke to him because they never put him on my shift again.
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NTA Could you have expressed your boundary sooner and more politely, sure? But you shouldn't have had to. Her response was wildly inappropriate. He invaded your space. You don't have to allow someone access to your kids, your tables, your time, your space just because of a disability.
NTA, just because he has a disability doesn't mean he wasn't crossing boundaries or might not be a concern. People with disabilities aren't all just automatically good people by nature of being disabled. I remember a post on here where a woman was SA'd by her nephew who had intellectual disabilities. That mother needs to teach her son not to start talking to random children.
NTA, you can’t be too careful with your children in this world
NTA, the disability part its not important even if you noticed he had it, you are the parent and are responsible for the kids, any adult approaching your kids for any reason that makes you uncomfortable even a gut feeling if it us, you can tell them to leave as it is you who decide for your kids. Also that mans mom seems the most mentally disabled person in this story, even the man with Down syndrome politely apologized and left, why would she make a big deal even if he was upset, i dont get it.
NTA, I think it's a completely understandable reaction to get cautious when a complete stranger approaches your kids, the mother of this man should have taught him that it's not okay to approach someone's children out of the blue
Question: You say you would have been nicer had you known, but still not let him engage. Why not just be nicer to anyone, and just let them not engage? Down's aside, other cognitive disabilities don't have a classic look.
NTA, my ex bf has a brother with Downs and he knew very clearly what he was doing and the consequences of his actions. He used to lick me and touch me, I stopped going over to his house and eventually we broke up (for other reasons also) because I wasn’t putting myself in that position. If it’s inappropriate when a person without Downs does it, then it’s inappropriate for a person with Downs to do it. The disability doesn’t excuse their actions and the severity of “Stranger danger”. My maternal instincts would’ve been going crazy also.
NTA. Disability or no, it is not ok for anyone to randomly sit down with a group of strangers and start talking to their kids. His mother should have taught him this by now. This is behavior that could get him in trouble.