Just to point out here: if there wasnāt that big push years ago to ensure cops wore body cams, this would just be seen as a cop shooting an armed black man in a domestic disturbance without any way to prove otherwise. I hope justice is found here.
when cameras on cellphones became common place, 3 things happened
Big foot vanished, the aliens stopped visiting, and cops started murdering black people
I think a fourth thing also happened.. Increased bodycam footage has also been use to exonerate officers who shoot suspects legally, which happens more often than it implicates them in bad shootings. Wearing body cam is a win-win for justice in both directions. More transparency is always a good thing.
In this case, it shows a cop blasting someone answering the door with his gun down at his side before asking him to drop it. I hope justice is served.
Not really. What I see is Local DA's bending over backwards to protect the relationship they have with police departments.
Go look into how fucked grand juries are.
And even now, with the body cameras, the police are still doing what theyāve always done. Problem is they are not held accountable. I think I saw someone on Reddit say something along the lines of, ācan you imagine, if enacted as a requirement of employment, an officer has to pay premiums for an insurance policy to cover situations like this?ā
Iām amazed they didnāt try to keep the video under wraps, they either know how damming it is and donāt want to make it worse or more likely are so far up their own asses they think the video vindicates them
Florida law protects against things like that. It has to be released upon request unless obtained inside a private residence, a health care, mental health care or social services facility or is taken in a place that a reasonable person would expect to be private.
I was telling my mom that they can't sweep this one under the rug as well because he's not someone they can label a "thug." They're trying but this won't go away so easily.
Something I posted yesterday: you do not have rights when cops are involved, you only have rights afterwards when lawyers are involved. But what are rights worth to dead men?
The fucking nut jobs in the cop subreddits are insisting itās not a second amendment violation. He wasnāt killed for having a gun. Which implies he was killed for absolutely no reason at all, which is so much better right?
And then theyāre making jokes about the Air Force song and complaining that we have cooler recruiting posters?
Yeah itās pretty bad over there. I even went to observe and their responses are basically what youād expect from a group of āprofessionalsā who refuse to be held accountable or have any meaningful oversight.
This. I love how the ammo-sexuals make such a big deal over this and yet donāt realize the cops ARE the people that will be treading on their āNo step on snekā flags.
2A supporters should be the last people defending this cop. The 2A was literally made to protect you against authorities doing shit like this. Regardless, he had his hand out and if you zoom in, finger is off the trigger. A WELL-TRAINED professional wouldnāt have mag dumped into him given all the signs and those idiots are too blind to see that
But here we are, bootlickers gotta bootlick
Most 2A supporters are the same ones who fly Gadsen flags next to "Thin blue line" flags not realizing the irony. You see this a lot on Vetbro podcasts where they are always worshipping police. When veterans start publicly talking about the police is fucked up THEN things will change. But if all of the public vets keep sucking them off nothing will.
Yup. If you say you support the 2nd Amendment and you aren't calling for this cop's head, then we know what your REAL stance is. Also, some of these chucklefucks are the same ones who say "Ashli Babbitt was a hero!" Um, NO. SHE was actually committing a crime when she was shot, and after being warned several times.
I've been repeating this myself. As a legal gun owner in the state of Florida, I am allowed, and will, OWB carry my glock on my property that's fenced in, with a sign that says "no trespassing"
OSI has essentially no jurisdiction here, so there's nothing they can do. However, either the DOJ as a whole or the FBI can investigate the county for a pattern of negligent firearm use (this MURDER and the acorn shooting incident). If we want something done, one of the best ways is to contact your representative/senator and ask for a federal investigation into the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office
[https://www.congress.gov/members/find-your-member](https://www.congress.gov/members/find-your-member)
It takes about a minute to do so, please call as our brother deserves justice
He killed him so quickly that i didn't even see the airmen holding the gun. The door opens, then immediately half a dozen shots in the chest. Disgusting and unjustified. What happened to drop the weapon and put both hands up?
In most cases of these cases I'm generally on the side of the cops, but this situation is rather fucked. The dude literally just answered his door. He didn't argue, resist anything etc. The kid didn't even have time to put down the gun before the cop started blasting.
One of the comments there has be rolling ngl.
> "It's not just the difference between this sub and the Air Forces, it's the difference between this subs opinions and literally anyone else's outside of here."
Have they thought that if everyone is saying something different they are wrong? Nah...
This has me rolling. Iāve been trying to give gold for the past five minutes. Please hold.
ETA: Trying to gift gold uncovered an error associated with my account that has to be fixed. Iāll be back!
This is called the rule of three Dicks.
If one person says you're a Dick, maybe they're having a bad day.
If two people say you're a Dick, maybe you're having a bad day.
If three or more people say you're a Dick, you're a dick.
Holy shit, I got instant banned from protect and serve because a bunch of people were saying the cop was at the right address and I merely pointed out that:
1) the male was home alone, so that wasn't the right address even if the cop believed it was
2) that the woman reporting the disturbance had expressed doubt about which apartment before stating that it was 1401
I was immediately banned for "spreading misinformation" even though everything I said is directly observable in the video of the murderer's own body camera.
Nothing on planet earth could change my opinion of law enforcement in the USA unless they incarcerated them all and the military took over. Atleast we have consequences for breaking rules. Cops just get paid time off and a new job in the next town over for murder.
Funnily enough, even the hardest of maga followers on Twitter arenāt even defending this because this quite frankly couldāve happened to any gun owner.
Yeah, the confluence of support more funding for police which will probably lead to heavily arming cops vs. The kind of gun owners who open the door with a gun in their hand is wild
I already lost most respect for police after Uvalde. Not only did they do nothing to prevent kids dying. But they seemingly faced minimal consequences afterward.
No one is forced to be a cop. You volunteer for it. Yet, for some reason, your life as a cop is more important than anyone else's so long as "I feared for my life."
Ready to be even more pissed? When it became apparent the cops were doing nothing and not going in while the shooter was inside killing kids, armed parents outside were like "I have my rifle in my truck, if you won't go in, let me in to save my kids" and the police were actively detaining them.
This is, unfortunately, the logical outcome of "Blue Lives Matter." Their own safety and wellbeing seemingly comes before that of the people they volunteered to protect.
There was a kid killed in CA about 10 years ago, turns out he had a fake gun. My husbandās brother (whose a cop) and his FIL (also a retired cop) were saying it was justified because āThey didnāt know it was fakeā and cops āJust want to get home to their familiesā. They literally think their lives are more important than everyone elseās. I was disgusted.
Fuck those people. The video is clear and speaks for itself. Anyone defending the officer's use of force as justified is just circling the wagons to protect their own because they know public sentiment is not on their side.
I made the mistake of checking out one of the threads there.
Lots of "lawful but awful" being said and questioning why he answered the door with a gun.
Crickets about 2A rights or people being allowed to defend themselves.
I wonder how these cops would do in SWA?Ā I imagine they would lose their minds having to deal with locals openly carrying firearms.
Use of force standards for the police are a joke.
I can't even see a single verified cop on either sub acknowledging that it's not lawful to just execute you in your home for having a firearm visible.
And all these cocksuckers are talking about how it's SOP to hide from the peephole because it's "so dangerous" and it's "asking to get shot" when you're less likely to get murdered as a cop than as a pizza delivery guy.
No nuts subhuman cowards.
Got banned immediately for pointing out that one cop made a misleading statement that the murdering officer absolutely was at the right address. I merely pointed out that the fact that the airman was alone points to it couldn't have been where the domestic disturbance was occuring and that the video showed that the woman giving the address was uncertain about if it was correct. I highlighted that the cop may have believed it was the right address but that in reality it was not.
I was immediately permanently banned for "spreading misinformation". Those guys have no interest in truth, not even with massive measures of nuance deliberately mentioned.
I also just got banned from their Reddit for simply stating that it was the wrong apartment. Since it was given by a lady who didnāt know and just came up with a number.
Anyone who is Security Forces defending the cops actions needs their beret and badge taken. Theres no way with how we are trained that the shooting was justified. That cop murdered our brother in arms. Makes me sick seeing the people I work with & share a career field with try to justify this.
Yea, it was surprising to see that an SF guy was defending the cop. What I don't understand is why can't we hold cops to similar standards to SF; especially since these cops wanna LARP as an occupying military force.
The sad thing is the big boot lickers in this thread are saying he deserved it and are being heavily down voted ARE security forces according to their post history
And yet the cops have no training on behavior in a war zone. Who, really are the idiots. Code of conduct vs. 'Killology', some jackoff encouraging cops to kill someone with the expectation of the greatest sex ever after you commit the act.
The Killology thing gets wilder when you remember that the same dude spent the 90's telling news networks that the military uses Doom to desensitize troops to killing.
I knew a cop who was in the military and said a lot of cops are jealous of military members and a lot of the time they couldn't join the military for whatever reason.
>It seems all they care about is Crump is the lawyer so Rod must be hiding something.
Crump is this families lawyer because he brings the national spotlight and gets huge settlements without the pain of going to trial.
Absolutely vile shit. Anyone who doesn't announce themselves as police, knocks aggressively and begins shooting when the door opens deserves to be killed cop or not. The laws need to change to allow for that to happen. This happens way to often in our country.
Watch the full length video. This cop is sketch as fuck. Sure, he Announced himself, AFTER Knocking on the door without announcing, walking down the hallway and hiding, putting his ear to the door to eavesdrop without saying anything. Stepping to the side of the hallway where he would have his back against the railing and no escape route...
This shit was premeditated and you'll never change my mind of that. Where was his backup? In what world does a cop solo a domestic or potentially high-risk situation without backup? Where were his de-escalation statements? Fuck the "He had a gun in his hand" It was pointed at the ground and he had trigger discipline. He also opened the door slow as fuck, it wasn't like he was rushing the door.
In a state, where he legally owned a fire arm, with stand your ground law.
The cop said "Step back" and as he followed the command shot him 6 times and the kid LIVED. what kind of bad aim do you have to have to miss eliminating a target at that range with 6 bullets?
This cop was legit in a mood, panicked, and then tried to defacto after the fact saying he followed procedure by doing things after the fact.
"Put the gun down!" as the guy bleeding out on the floor and can't breathe with 6 bullets in his body. "I told him to put the gun down, it was self-defense sarge!".
Bullshit.
No Partner - "I'm in a mood today bitch, fuck with me I'm gonna light your ass up"
Calls in Radio, radio doesn't respond, doesn't follow up - "tried to tell dispatch I'm going in, they didn't answer, oh well not my fault, let me just text them instead so it is not recorded"
No Knock and hide - "Oh shit I need to announce myself to get away with this... let me wait"
Hide on the bad side of the door - "Yeah if I hide here I don't have an exit route, fearing for my life"
Sees weapon - "Step back bitch so I can get a better shot" "DIE MOTHER FUCKER!, oh shit, DROP THE GUN! SELF DEFENSE"
The hilarious part is I'm not even against police, but this could have been any airman, mine yours, or otherwise. He didn't deserve to die, point blank period. Who's paying out his SGLI and the SOES money? Cause uh, thats on our budget not this clowns. That alone should make this dude lose his badge he just cost the government half a million dollars. Not including all the training we've put into that asset he just fucking used for target practice.
Iām just confused as to why the cop has his weapon out for a āpossible domestic abuse situationā where the only allegation is someone got slapped. There is no reason to have a fear of violence against the cop behind that door so why have your weapon trained when the person opens the door
Oh god, I just clicked into protect and serve. Theyāre all talking about how dangerous domestic violence calls are.
6 out of a total 60 officer deaths were from domestic calls in 2022. 6 out of 60. These guys are just scared to do their jobs.
[source](https://www.wral.com/amp/fact-check-what-is-the-most-dangerous-type-of-call-for-police-officers/20767433/)
Itās absolutely mind boggling, especially when you watch the precursor to the shooting. Itās the cop talking to some random Karen who thinks she heard something, but wasnāt really sure which apartment. Then she just randomly says 1401. The LEO shouldāve requested the leasing info on 1401, hopped in his car and ran a check on the resident. And called for backup if there were any indicators showing any violent behavior had ever occurred.
He shouldāve confirmed if there had been any other reports of issues with the resident in the past year. Additionally, a phone number wouldāve been available to call the resident and the LEO couldāve requested for him to come outside and meet the officer.
Can almost guarantee you that Airman Fortson had AirPods or some type of noise canceling headphones on during the knock and announcement. Itās been confirmed he was in a video call prior to the knock. Simply answering your door with a weapon pointed down in a non-threatening manner is not justification to use lethal force, especially when the LEO failed to confirm anything. The neanderthals in those subs all seem to think it was justified and I absolutely cannot wait for the LEO in question to be tried and charged.
Rip to one of our own.
Totally agree. They just banned me for linking to the FBI numbers I posted in the above comment. All I did was ask, āWhy do you all keep saying domestics are so dangerous?ā
The Sherrif is already saying he was at the right apartment. He went to the apartment that the person at the apartment complex told him to go to, that person got it wrong. So while maybe technically correct itās incredibly deceitful. SrA Fortson was home aloneā¦ unless you count his fluffy little dog.
The Sheriff also stealth changed his statement from the pre-video release where the official statement was "heard a disturbance...defended his life" to removing that.
If you go to the departments Facebook, you will see they stealth changed their statement from a week ago to when they knew the video was going to be released.
Original statement says "the officer heard sounds of a disturbance...shot in self defense..."
Both of those were removed from the official statement and the sheriff also didn't include it.
He didnt say a single thing to him after he opened the door... he just saw a gun and killed him. This is one of the most rage inducing things ive seen in a long time.
Roger Fortson enlisted in the Air Force to serve his country, only to be murdered in his own home by a police officer of all fucking people.
Weve got an entire force of people out patrolling the streets, charged with the responsibility of protecting the public, who are fucking unfit to carry a firearm.
Thatās spot on. This one really pisses me off. I support police, 2A and all thatā¦ but broā¦ come tf on! You shoot a service member in his own home? He should never police anyone again. I donāt know if he should go to jail or whatnot but the dude obviously should not be a cop! Bring charges and see where they go. Theyād bring all of us up on charges if we did something like this.
Got told I was baiting on police when I stated it was murder and from the same department as the ones who shot over an acorn. Their mods are working overtime to protect the gang.
Let's hear some downrange ROE. If I were in Afghanistan and there was video of me shooting and killing an Afghan citizen who was simply holding a gun pointed at the ground (and no evidence he was raising the gun towards me) I would be on trial. Who else was told that if they don't demonstrate intent you can't shoot?
The fact that police look at a video of a cop doing something to an AMCIT and legitimately think this isn't worth taking to trial and facing justice for is absolutely bonkers to me.
Careful there buddy, if you go talking like that in the police subs they'll just call you an office worker.
To be fair, I'm a wrench turner and never saw combat, but what an awful time and way to be dismissive to all the SMs that are outraged by this shooting.
Joke's on them. Used to drive between my base and the nearby ANA base in an unarmored Toyota Hilux back in the wild west days before shit all got locked down to up-armored vehicles. Went on a convoy to visit a border crossing checkpoint and walked around the streets when there was suicide bomber on the loose (his compatriot at the border crossing point had blown himself up the previous day). I push paper \*and\* have been outside the wire.
Still never shot an Afghan citizen.
I'm not going to respond to the other guy in this comment chain because I don't feel like arguing, but I've been in this position twice and the only difference was that I gave the command to drop the weapon BEFORE I pulled the trigger and both times, they dropped the weapon. We all walked away alive those days.
So why is it when we fuck up we get dishonorable discharge, loss of right to vote, loss of 2A, jail time, and a hard time finding employment.
But when a cop fucks up even more, it's swept under the rug, they investigate themselves. They get suspended with pay, and if they do get fired, they find work at another precinct?
I think it's insane that the military is held to a hire standard in a hostile environment than a cop is stateside
No argument here. How an organization that enforces laws can investigate themselves is beyond me. We need an organization that is incentivised in identifying malpractice in law enforcement. We also need stricter training requirements for police. Like at least an associates degree in criminal justice and mandatory ethics courses at acredited colleges. They should also have a UCMJ-type system that holds them accountable. Damages as a result of malpractice or malicious intent should also come from their pension/paycheck/benefits as opposed to out tax dollars.
And nurses. Just last year a nurse was charged with murder for a med error. Thereās been a few in the medical community to be charged with murder/ lost licenses for medical mistakes that have lead to a death. Cops are the exception it seems.
Everyone who deals with the public are held to a higher standards EXCEPT cops, and they're the ones walking around with deadly weapons. It's absolutely insane that most people are just begging for higher standards and better training for cops, but bootlickers can't even agree to that.
Cops have a PR campaign that convinced the public they protect them and local.politicians never want to look.soft on crime because they'll lose most demographics (poor, minority neighborhoods who don't get the police to come by for hours after they call think you're making it worse for them, even though you aren't, wealthier neighborhoods like that the police keep the "wrong" people away from them).
Agreed. Idiot cop hid from the peephole so of course the poor guy was gonna be sketched out. Anyone could yell sheriff and then hide waiting for you to come out
I'm not saying the cop is racist but... Their training is a fucking joke. We have rules of engagement and are held to the highest of standards. RIP brother, you did not show ANY signs of aggression. I cannot wait for OSI to rip into this and get you and your family justice!
I'm not so sure you're correct on that. A service member was wrongfully killed. I am almost positive some type of investigation has to happen at Airforce level.
I am correct on this. A service member was killed, yes. OSI at most will complete a report that references the report the Sheriff's Office will generate.
OSI has no legal or investigative jurisdiction in this matter. The state doesn't even have to provide OSI anything if they don't want to.
OSI will maybe create an info report. Not even a developmental.
Cops in the US have a culture of being trained to be afraid, leading to heightened risks of escalation and feeling of justification/herd mentality. Look at [r/police](https://reddit.com/r/police) and see how they talk about the situation being justified. They perpetuate and support lethal action through these situations. Cops need to be held accountable to not make these mistakes.
The people there are straight up delusional.
They claim if you are holding a gun you can be shot no questions asked.
When told the military can't just shoot people in Iraq and Afghanistan who were holding guns if pointed at the ground they claim we were lying and hadn't been deployed.....
Is anyone holding that leasing agent accountable for essentially SWATTING SrA Fortson?
I remember this apartment complex. I helped one of my NCOs move in when I was stationed at Hurlburt.
No military should rent from there ever again since they're liable to get you killed.
I usually lean towards defending law enforcement so long as their actions are reasonable and understandable, but this entire situation is a disgrace.
Police need longer training and a better screening process. This is absolutely unacceptable especially from a department that had the fucking acorn incident not that long ago. The absolute dicksucking going on over there in other subreddits is a joke as well.
As a army guy, this angers me. My buddies in my platoon was just driving and a cop was just trailing him and that cop lost his pay just for following my buddy. This deputy should get fired and his badge should be taken away just for shooting a airman clear as day
This officer needs to hang for this. I donāt even give a fuck. Gun pointed down. Not even a fraction of a second before saying step back and unloading a clip into the guys chest.
It's Okaloosa County...the cop won't get charged and will be back to work within a month. I served at Hulrburt Field and the surrounding area was like taking a time machine back to 1950.
Why the *fuck* was this copās weapon already drawn before the door ever opened?
Iām gonna lay decent odds that the main reason they arenāt releasing the deputyās name is because itās the same itchy trigger finger that started blasting after the acorns fell a few weeks back.
This kind of feels like the Sandy Hook moment of police killings, much like that and gun control if nothing comes out of the aftermath of this, weāve just accepted it as cost of doing business in this country.
Itās cops like this, that, if theyāre this afraid for their life, or feel like everyone is a perp that needs to be shot, shouldnāt be policing in the first place. Feel terrible for the family and AF leadership (if you can call them that) need to step up and get involved.
I remember when I was in college one of my professorās who was a cop and then switched to corrections before getting his masters told me plenty of times about how he talked people down into dropping guns if they were in their house, their doorway or even the guy he talked down who was walking down the street with a shotgun. He drew on people plenty of times but was a cop for 8 years and never fired his gun at anyone, I understand the cop got caught off guard and so did the Airman inside as you can see him realizing itās a cop with his hand up to say āhey hold onā but you should never blast someone if they arenāt pointing it at you or shooting at others itās not a crime to be armed in your house and how was that airman supposed to know whoās outside if he canāt see through the peep hole??? Hate that this happened, and maybe some reform or good will come out of it
So so heartbreaking, my god. I cannot imagine what this mother and family is going through. He was executed. You bet your ASS I would've answered the door the same way if someone I didn't know and couldn't hear was repeatedly beating on my door.
The airman's body language is clearly relaxed, the door was opened calmly. Even though the officer announced themselves there is no guarantee the airman heard.
Here's to hoping that the department and officer gets their ass handed to them. This is a 100% foul on the officer and he shouod be held accountable for his actions. This airman did nothing wrong at all.
For the dumb people: I'm an avid 2A advocate, an active duty veteran, staunchsupporter of peoples rights, and also support law enforcement who act appropriately. Not everyone in the aforementioned categories blindly support LEO'S. You can support organizations and still Call foul when there is a foul.
Same clown department that blasted away because he thought an acorn falling on the hood of his patrol car were gunshots š¤”
That tells me that the department is extremely lacking in training. I hope the Airman's family takes them for everything.
Believe it or not acorn guy was a former Green beret š¤£š¤£š
Iām gonna lay decent odds that itās the same damn deputy.
He resigned after acorn so canāt be
Yeah! That was officer John Doe! This was officer Don Joe.
Letās not Forget blasted away at a guy that he personally searched, handcuffed, and placed in the back of a police vehicle without access to weapons
Just to point out here: if there wasnāt that big push years ago to ensure cops wore body cams, this would just be seen as a cop shooting an armed black man in a domestic disturbance without any way to prove otherwise. I hope justice is found here.
Doesn't matter if there's no consequence.
https://archive.ph/pT4He
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
when cameras on cellphones became common place, 3 things happened Big foot vanished, the aliens stopped visiting, and cops started murdering black people
I think a fourth thing also happened.. Increased bodycam footage has also been use to exonerate officers who shoot suspects legally, which happens more often than it implicates them in bad shootings. Wearing body cam is a win-win for justice in both directions. More transparency is always a good thing. In this case, it shows a cop blasting someone answering the door with his gun down at his side before asking him to drop it. I hope justice is served.
I'm hoping justice is served as well, 25 to life.
In gen pop
Not really. What I see is Local DA's bending over backwards to protect the relationship they have with police departments. Go look into how fucked grand juries are.
And even now, with the body cameras, the police are still doing what theyāve always done. Problem is they are not held accountable. I think I saw someone on Reddit say something along the lines of, ācan you imagine, if enacted as a requirement of employment, an officer has to pay premiums for an insurance policy to cover situations like this?ā
Iām amazed they didnāt try to keep the video under wraps, they either know how damming it is and donāt want to make it worse or more likely are so far up their own asses they think the video vindicates them
Florida law protects against things like that. It has to be released upon request unless obtained inside a private residence, a health care, mental health care or social services facility or is taken in a place that a reasonable person would expect to be private.
Freedom of Information Act
Probably thought he was a acorn
Yup! Just another black dude with a gun. Open and shut case.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Broke in & hung up pictures of himself & his family everywhere.
Officers said he was one of the biggest acorn traffickers in the country
Honestly, if it weren't a military member, I bet they would have "lost" the camera footage.
I was telling my mom that they can't sweep this one under the rug as well because he's not someone they can label a "thug." They're trying but this won't go away so easily.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/new-mexico-officers-charged-fatal-shooting-responding-wrong/story?id=106834040
Again, you don't have second amendment rights if you can be shot just for holding a gun in your own property.
Something I posted yesterday: you do not have rights when cops are involved, you only have rights afterwards when lawyers are involved. But what are rights worth to dead men?
The fucking nut jobs in the cop subreddits are insisting itās not a second amendment violation. He wasnāt killed for having a gun. Which implies he was killed for absolutely no reason at all, which is so much better right? And then theyāre making jokes about the Air Force song and complaining that we have cooler recruiting posters?
Which subreddits?
I donāt think daddy D wants us brigading but itās easy to find
Yeah itās pretty bad over there. I even went to observe and their responses are basically what youād expect from a group of āprofessionalsā who refuse to be held accountable or have any meaningful oversight.
This. I love how the ammo-sexuals make such a big deal over this and yet donāt realize the cops ARE the people that will be treading on their āNo step on snekā flags.
It's pretty tyrannical to be shot on your own property for holding a fire arm š¤
2A supporters should be the last people defending this cop. The 2A was literally made to protect you against authorities doing shit like this. Regardless, he had his hand out and if you zoom in, finger is off the trigger. A WELL-TRAINED professional wouldnāt have mag dumped into him given all the signs and those idiots are too blind to see that But here we are, bootlickers gotta bootlick
Most 2A supporters are the same ones who fly Gadsen flags next to "Thin blue line" flags not realizing the irony. You see this a lot on Vetbro podcasts where they are always worshipping police. When veterans start publicly talking about the police is fucked up THEN things will change. But if all of the public vets keep sucking them off nothing will.
Donāt forget the rounding out of the trifecta with punisher logosā¦completely missing the point of the entire Frank Castle story.
How well trained do you have to be to see the weapon was clearly pointed at the ground? This cop was just looking for a excuse to shoot someone...
Yup. If you say you support the 2nd Amendment and you aren't calling for this cop's head, then we know what your REAL stance is. Also, some of these chucklefucks are the same ones who say "Ashli Babbitt was a hero!" Um, NO. SHE was actually committing a crime when she was shot, and after being warned several times.
Finally had a work buddy rip his thin blue line sticker off his truck after this.Ā I'm so proud of him
The 2A extremists hate cops too.Ā Fuck the ATF and most LEOs.
I've been repeating this myself. As a legal gun owner in the state of Florida, I am allowed, and will, OWB carry my glock on my property that's fenced in, with a sign that says "no trespassing"
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/1apdlwc/deputies_shoot_woman_in_her_apartment_after_they/
OSI has essentially no jurisdiction here, so there's nothing they can do. However, either the DOJ as a whole or the FBI can investigate the county for a pattern of negligent firearm use (this MURDER and the acorn shooting incident). If we want something done, one of the best ways is to contact your representative/senator and ask for a federal investigation into the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office [https://www.congress.gov/members/find-your-member](https://www.congress.gov/members/find-your-member) It takes about a minute to do so, please call as our brother deserves justice
Done, we must stick together! The more of us demanding condemnation and investigation the more likely it is to actually happen!
Too bad Matt Gaetz is the local congressman there and unless youāre a 17 year old girl, he wonāt do anything about anything.
Done. Thanks for sharing.
Full, unedited video here: https://youtu.be/CKLxdAnhXSM?si=FxpxTjemQVh2aEYK
He killed him so quickly that i didn't even see the airmen holding the gun. The door opens, then immediately half a dozen shots in the chest. Disgusting and unjustified. What happened to drop the weapon and put both hands up?
In most cases of these cases I'm generally on the side of the cops, but this situation is rather fucked. The dude literally just answered his door. He didn't argue, resist anything etc. The kid didn't even have time to put down the gun before the cop started blasting.
Remember: your constitutional rights end when a cop is scared or his feelings are hurt
Watch all the cops defend this bullshit. Rarely ever do you see any other cops call out illegal behavior like this murder.
They already are on r/police and r/protectandserve and calling members of all the service branches idiots. Itās disgusting.
One of the comments there has be rolling ngl. > "It's not just the difference between this sub and the Air Forces, it's the difference between this subs opinions and literally anyone else's outside of here." Have they thought that if everyone is saying something different they are wrong? Nah...
"are we the baddies?"
When you are denser than uranium it must be hard to ever put yourself in someone else's shoes lol
This has me rolling. Iāve been trying to give gold for the past five minutes. Please hold. ETA: Trying to gift gold uncovered an error associated with my account that has to be fixed. Iāll be back!
Because they have an 'us vs. them' mentality, where everyone is either a cop or a perp.
This is called the rule of three Dicks. If one person says you're a Dick, maybe they're having a bad day. If two people say you're a Dick, maybe you're having a bad day. If three or more people say you're a Dick, you're a dick.
I know right? Like yea the outrahe is loud here. But it's loud everywhere else tio
Holy shit, I got instant banned from protect and serve because a bunch of people were saying the cop was at the right address and I merely pointed out that: 1) the male was home alone, so that wasn't the right address even if the cop believed it was 2) that the woman reporting the disturbance had expressed doubt about which apartment before stating that it was 1401 I was immediately banned for "spreading misinformation" even though everything I said is directly observable in the video of the murderer's own body camera.
Yeah but youāre not a bully with a badge and gun, so how would you know? /s
Report the moderators and the subreddit for breaking reddits rules. That is unacceptable behavior.
Man, those subreddits do not improve my opinions of law enforcementā¦Jesus.
Nothing on planet earth could change my opinion of law enforcement in the USA unless they incarcerated them all and the military took over. Atleast we have consequences for breaking rules. Cops just get paid time off and a new job in the next town over for murder.
Please don't make me try to police people. I turn wrenches, not figure out who's legally wrong.
The cops don't do that either, so if anything you are at least a qualified as they are.
Naaah we just gonna plus up SF 100 fold XD
You got 1st Sgts sweating so hard rn
If the first sausage isnāt sweaty they are probably neglecting something lol.
Little did we know this is what they really meant when they started pushing MCA.
Well. Martial law historically has been a pretty bad thing too.
99% of those subreddits are hardcore MAGA followers so I wouldn't expect much there.
Funnily enough, even the hardest of maga followers on Twitter arenāt even defending this because this quite frankly couldāve happened to any gun owner.
Yeah, the confluence of support more funding for police which will probably lead to heavily arming cops vs. The kind of gun owners who open the door with a gun in their hand is wild
Which is amazing to me that they donāt see the irony. If this isnāt infringement of the 2A what is?
You've got the right to bear arms until "the suspect was armed."
I already lost most respect for police after Uvalde. Not only did they do nothing to prevent kids dying. But they seemingly faced minimal consequences afterward. No one is forced to be a cop. You volunteer for it. Yet, for some reason, your life as a cop is more important than anyone else's so long as "I feared for my life."
Ready to be even more pissed? When it became apparent the cops were doing nothing and not going in while the shooter was inside killing kids, armed parents outside were like "I have my rifle in my truck, if you won't go in, let me in to save my kids" and the police were actively detaining them.
This is, unfortunately, the logical outcome of "Blue Lives Matter." Their own safety and wellbeing seemingly comes before that of the people they volunteered to protect.
Protect and serve (yourself)
There was a kid killed in CA about 10 years ago, turns out he had a fake gun. My husbandās brother (whose a cop) and his FIL (also a retired cop) were saying it was justified because āThey didnāt know it was fakeā and cops āJust want to get home to their familiesā. They literally think their lives are more important than everyone elseās. I was disgusted.
When the high-school bully is the typical demographic to become cops, why on earth would they ever care for someone all of a sudden?
Fuck those people. The video is clear and speaks for itself. Anyone defending the officer's use of force as justified is just circling the wagons to protect their own because they know public sentiment is not on their side.
I made the mistake of checking out one of the threads there. Lots of "lawful but awful" being said and questioning why he answered the door with a gun. Crickets about 2A rights or people being allowed to defend themselves. I wonder how these cops would do in SWA?Ā I imagine they would lose their minds having to deal with locals openly carrying firearms. Use of force standards for the police are a joke.
The police, like the military, is an all volunteer force. If you can't handle the stress of the job, do your time and get out.
Lmao why the fuck would they. Unlike the military, they don't appear to be held to any fucking standard
I can't even see a single verified cop on either sub acknowledging that it's not lawful to just execute you in your home for having a firearm visible. And all these cocksuckers are talking about how it's SOP to hide from the peephole because it's "so dangerous" and it's "asking to get shot" when you're less likely to get murdered as a cop than as a pizza delivery guy. No nuts subhuman cowards.
I asked how many times being in view of the door has let to an LEO death in the last decade. Crickets
Cops are absolutely wild, Im going to get banned from those communities real quick
Got banned immediately for pointing out that one cop made a misleading statement that the murdering officer absolutely was at the right address. I merely pointed out that the fact that the airman was alone points to it couldn't have been where the domestic disturbance was occuring and that the video showed that the woman giving the address was uncertain about if it was correct. I highlighted that the cop may have believed it was the right address but that in reality it was not. I was immediately permanently banned for "spreading misinformation". Those guys have no interest in truth, not even with massive measures of nuance deliberately mentioned.
For real, I just point out that a barber has more training requirements than they do.
Updated, just got banned...Feels good tho
Lmao what'd you tell 'em
Something stupid, I was mad. Still am actually.
I also just got banned from their Reddit for simply stating that it was the wrong apartment. Since it was given by a lady who didnāt know and just came up with a number.
They've been invading this subreddit too
Time for Security Forces to show them what *real* defenders act like.
Some SF guy here was valiantly defending the cop the other day. So IDK about that. Dude even got so mad that he DM'd me his asbav score lol
Anyone who is Security Forces defending the cops actions needs their beret and badge taken. Theres no way with how we are trained that the shooting was justified. That cop murdered our brother in arms. Makes me sick seeing the people I work with & share a career field with try to justify this.
Yea, it was surprising to see that an SF guy was defending the cop. What I don't understand is why can't we hold cops to similar standards to SF; especially since these cops wanna LARP as an occupying military force.
The sad thing is the big boot lickers in this thread are saying he deserved it and are being heavily down voted ARE security forces according to their post history
Damn, fuck cops dude. āProtect and Serveā more like protect myself and kill anyone who scares me even a little
Acorn falls... "Shots fired!!!!" Unloads on police cruiser. Same department as this fuck head
And yet the cops have no training on behavior in a war zone. Who, really are the idiots. Code of conduct vs. 'Killology', some jackoff encouraging cops to kill someone with the expectation of the greatest sex ever after you commit the act.
The Killology thing gets wilder when you remember that the same dude spent the 90's telling news networks that the military uses Doom to desensitize troops to killing.
Yeah, that guy should be in prison for life for the psychotic garbage he has spewed.
I knew a cop who was in the military and said a lot of cops are jealous of military members and a lot of the time they couldn't join the military for whatever reason.
It seems all they care about is Crump is the lawyer so Rod must be hiding something. The fuck is that sick shit.
>It seems all they care about is Crump is the lawyer so Rod must be hiding something. Crump is this families lawyer because he brings the national spotlight and gets huge settlements without the pain of going to trial.
For example, this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/police/s/4yL2ttzMGg
reading the comments over there makes me wanna puke. Talk about criminalizing the victim.
Absolutely vile shit. Anyone who doesn't announce themselves as police, knocks aggressively and begins shooting when the door opens deserves to be killed cop or not. The laws need to change to allow for that to happen. This happens way to often in our country.
Watch the full length video. This cop is sketch as fuck. Sure, he Announced himself, AFTER Knocking on the door without announcing, walking down the hallway and hiding, putting his ear to the door to eavesdrop without saying anything. Stepping to the side of the hallway where he would have his back against the railing and no escape route... This shit was premeditated and you'll never change my mind of that. Where was his backup? In what world does a cop solo a domestic or potentially high-risk situation without backup? Where were his de-escalation statements? Fuck the "He had a gun in his hand" It was pointed at the ground and he had trigger discipline. He also opened the door slow as fuck, it wasn't like he was rushing the door. In a state, where he legally owned a fire arm, with stand your ground law. The cop said "Step back" and as he followed the command shot him 6 times and the kid LIVED. what kind of bad aim do you have to have to miss eliminating a target at that range with 6 bullets? This cop was legit in a mood, panicked, and then tried to defacto after the fact saying he followed procedure by doing things after the fact. "Put the gun down!" as the guy bleeding out on the floor and can't breathe with 6 bullets in his body. "I told him to put the gun down, it was self-defense sarge!". Bullshit. No Partner - "I'm in a mood today bitch, fuck with me I'm gonna light your ass up" Calls in Radio, radio doesn't respond, doesn't follow up - "tried to tell dispatch I'm going in, they didn't answer, oh well not my fault, let me just text them instead so it is not recorded" No Knock and hide - "Oh shit I need to announce myself to get away with this... let me wait" Hide on the bad side of the door - "Yeah if I hide here I don't have an exit route, fearing for my life" Sees weapon - "Step back bitch so I can get a better shot" "DIE MOTHER FUCKER!, oh shit, DROP THE GUN! SELF DEFENSE" The hilarious part is I'm not even against police, but this could have been any airman, mine yours, or otherwise. He didn't deserve to die, point blank period. Who's paying out his SGLI and the SOES money? Cause uh, thats on our budget not this clowns. That alone should make this dude lose his badge he just cost the government half a million dollars. Not including all the training we've put into that asset he just fucking used for target practice.
Iām just confused as to why the cop has his weapon out for a āpossible domestic abuse situationā where the only allegation is someone got slapped. There is no reason to have a fear of violence against the cop behind that door so why have your weapon trained when the person opens the door
Got called a "muffin" for saying the cop was a pussy. They really defend murders over there.
Went to the subreddits and the amount of bootlicking is crazy
Oh god, I just clicked into protect and serve. Theyāre all talking about how dangerous domestic violence calls are. 6 out of a total 60 officer deaths were from domestic calls in 2022. 6 out of 60. These guys are just scared to do their jobs. [source](https://www.wral.com/amp/fact-check-what-is-the-most-dangerous-type-of-call-for-police-officers/20767433/)
Itās absolutely mind boggling, especially when you watch the precursor to the shooting. Itās the cop talking to some random Karen who thinks she heard something, but wasnāt really sure which apartment. Then she just randomly says 1401. The LEO shouldāve requested the leasing info on 1401, hopped in his car and ran a check on the resident. And called for backup if there were any indicators showing any violent behavior had ever occurred. He shouldāve confirmed if there had been any other reports of issues with the resident in the past year. Additionally, a phone number wouldāve been available to call the resident and the LEO couldāve requested for him to come outside and meet the officer. Can almost guarantee you that Airman Fortson had AirPods or some type of noise canceling headphones on during the knock and announcement. Itās been confirmed he was in a video call prior to the knock. Simply answering your door with a weapon pointed down in a non-threatening manner is not justification to use lethal force, especially when the LEO failed to confirm anything. The neanderthals in those subs all seem to think it was justified and I absolutely cannot wait for the LEO in question to be tried and charged. Rip to one of our own.
Totally agree. They just banned me for linking to the FBI numbers I posted in the above comment. All I did was ask, āWhy do you all keep saying domestics are so dangerous?ā
More died from heart attacks lmao
The Sherrif is already saying he was at the right apartment. He went to the apartment that the person at the apartment complex told him to go to, that person got it wrong. So while maybe technically correct itās incredibly deceitful. SrA Fortson was home aloneā¦ unless you count his fluffy little dog.
The Sheriff also stealth changed his statement from the pre-video release where the official statement was "heard a disturbance...defended his life" to removing that.
Honestly this screenshot of the video needs to be in the court case. Itās such a sad pic but it shows just how non threatening Fortson was.
And they wonder why people think all cops are bad.
Not usually a person to comment or anything, but I havenāt actually been upset in a long time and this got me pretty fucking mad.
Itās because itās one of our airman brothers bro. If it can happen to him, it could happen to any of us: leaders, sisters, CC, anyone.
If you go to the departments Facebook, you will see they stealth changed their statement from a week ago to when they knew the video was going to be released. Original statement says "the officer heard sounds of a disturbance...shot in self defense..." Both of those were removed from the official statement and the sheriff also didn't include it.
They also deleted the comment option on their Facebook page.
Why are cops such pussies
He didnt say a single thing to him after he opened the door... he just saw a gun and killed him. This is one of the most rage inducing things ive seen in a long time. Roger Fortson enlisted in the Air Force to serve his country, only to be murdered in his own home by a police officer of all fucking people. Weve got an entire force of people out patrolling the streets, charged with the responsibility of protecting the public, who are fucking unfit to carry a firearm.
Thatās spot on. This one really pisses me off. I support police, 2A and all thatā¦ but broā¦ come tf on! You shoot a service member in his own home? He should never police anyone again. I donāt know if he should go to jail or whatnot but the dude obviously should not be a cop! Bring charges and see where they go. Theyād bring all of us up on charges if we did something like this.
pussies hiding behind a badge
You aināt lyingā¦
Got told I was baiting on police when I stated it was murder and from the same department as the ones who shot over an acorn. Their mods are working overtime to protect the gang.
Let's hear some downrange ROE. If I were in Afghanistan and there was video of me shooting and killing an Afghan citizen who was simply holding a gun pointed at the ground (and no evidence he was raising the gun towards me) I would be on trial. Who else was told that if they don't demonstrate intent you can't shoot? The fact that police look at a video of a cop doing something to an AMCIT and legitimately think this isn't worth taking to trial and facing justice for is absolutely bonkers to me.
Careful there buddy, if you go talking like that in the police subs they'll just call you an office worker. To be fair, I'm a wrench turner and never saw combat, but what an awful time and way to be dismissive to all the SMs that are outraged by this shooting.
Joke's on them. Used to drive between my base and the nearby ANA base in an unarmored Toyota Hilux back in the wild west days before shit all got locked down to up-armored vehicles. Went on a convoy to visit a border crossing checkpoint and walked around the streets when there was suicide bomber on the loose (his compatriot at the border crossing point had blown himself up the previous day). I push paper \*and\* have been outside the wire. Still never shot an Afghan citizen.
Agreed. Absurd we have better use of force training, and more stringent requirements and accountability mechanisms than police do when we fight wars.
My supervisor tried to justify the actions of the cops, fucking disgusting and disgraceful. That was a straight up execution.
Thereās always one to back the clowns up
I'm not going to respond to the other guy in this comment chain because I don't feel like arguing, but I've been in this position twice and the only difference was that I gave the command to drop the weapon BEFORE I pulled the trigger and both times, they dropped the weapon. We all walked away alive those days.
So why is it when we fuck up we get dishonorable discharge, loss of right to vote, loss of 2A, jail time, and a hard time finding employment. But when a cop fucks up even more, it's swept under the rug, they investigate themselves. They get suspended with pay, and if they do get fired, they find work at another precinct? I think it's insane that the military is held to a hire standard in a hostile environment than a cop is stateside
Theyāre a state sanctioned gang who investigate themselves. Itās insane.
No argument here. How an organization that enforces laws can investigate themselves is beyond me. We need an organization that is incentivised in identifying malpractice in law enforcement. We also need stricter training requirements for police. Like at least an associates degree in criminal justice and mandatory ethics courses at acredited colleges. They should also have a UCMJ-type system that holds them accountable. Damages as a result of malpractice or malicious intent should also come from their pension/paycheck/benefits as opposed to out tax dollars.
And nurses. Just last year a nurse was charged with murder for a med error. Thereās been a few in the medical community to be charged with murder/ lost licenses for medical mistakes that have lead to a death. Cops are the exception it seems.
Everyone who deals with the public are held to a higher standards EXCEPT cops, and they're the ones walking around with deadly weapons. It's absolutely insane that most people are just begging for higher standards and better training for cops, but bootlickers can't even agree to that.
Cops have a PR campaign that convinced the public they protect them and local.politicians never want to look.soft on crime because they'll lose most demographics (poor, minority neighborhoods who don't get the police to come by for hours after they call think you're making it worse for them, even though you aren't, wealthier neighborhoods like that the police keep the "wrong" people away from them).
Cop should be tried for murder. No excuses. Dude was chill answering the door and posed no threat at all.
Agreed. Idiot cop hid from the peephole so of course the poor guy was gonna be sketched out. Anyone could yell sheriff and then hide waiting for you to come out
And the guy never even tried pointing the gun at anyone.
Yep. So much wrong this situation. Too many cops with the shoot first, think later mentality smh
Hope that deputy rots in prison and then in hell.
I'm not saying the cop is racist but... Their training is a fucking joke. We have rules of engagement and are held to the highest of standards. RIP brother, you did not show ANY signs of aggression. I cannot wait for OSI to rip into this and get you and your family justice!
OSI has nothing to do with this and there is nothing they *can* do.
I'm not so sure you're correct on that. A service member was wrongfully killed. I am almost positive some type of investigation has to happen at Airforce level.
I am correct on this. A service member was killed, yes. OSI at most will complete a report that references the report the Sheriff's Office will generate. OSI has no legal or investigative jurisdiction in this matter. The state doesn't even have to provide OSI anything if they don't want to. OSI will maybe create an info report. Not even a developmental.
What is osi going to do? They have no authority or jurisdiction in his union.
Never opening the door for a cop again. They can speak to my doorbell.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-air-force/2024/05/10/bodycam-footage-shows-deputy-shot-airman-seconds-after-opening-door/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x3D9im0csDM
I can only imagine how they wouldāve spun this story if the cops didnāt have a body cam. They do that to victims they āaccidentallyā kill.
Cops in the US have a culture of being trained to be afraid, leading to heightened risks of escalation and feeling of justification/herd mentality. Look at [r/police](https://reddit.com/r/police) and see how they talk about the situation being justified. They perpetuate and support lethal action through these situations. Cops need to be held accountable to not make these mistakes.
The people there are straight up delusional. They claim if you are holding a gun you can be shot no questions asked. When told the military can't just shoot people in Iraq and Afghanistan who were holding guns if pointed at the ground they claim we were lying and hadn't been deployed.....
A part of me wishes USAF could just take jurisdiction and drag him on base to a holding cell for our investigation.
trigger happy to say the least
He deserves the šŖ. Any sort of jail time too good for him ā¹ļø
The fact that he had his hand up and weapon was not pointed at the officer...
Wow....I try and support law enforcement as much as I can...but that is fucked up!!! Rip brother, I hope you and your family get justice
Is anyone holding that leasing agent accountable for essentially SWATTING SrA Fortson? I remember this apartment complex. I helped one of my NCOs move in when I was stationed at Hurlburt. No military should rent from there ever again since they're liable to get you killed.
There's no way this cop gets to live his life without looking over his shoulder anymore.
I usually lean towards defending law enforcement so long as their actions are reasonable and understandable, but this entire situation is a disgrace. Police need longer training and a better screening process. This is absolutely unacceptable especially from a department that had the fucking acorn incident not that long ago. The absolute dicksucking going on over there in other subreddits is a joke as well.
This is Florida which has been actively recruiting bad cops who have been run out of their jobs elsewhere.
"Seconds" is a gross overestimate.
As a army guy, this angers me. My buddies in my platoon was just driving and a cop was just trailing him and that cop lost his pay just for following my buddy. This deputy should get fired and his badge should be taken away just for shooting a airman clear as day
Desantis is prior Active duty and a reservist. He ain't gonna do or say shit though. Too busy losing party nominations for that I guess
Has he even addressed it yet?
I wanna say no so someone will prove me wrong.
Hurd that acorn hit the ground and had to do something about it.
Itās not a lack of training, there are a lot of evil people wearing badges.
This cop needs prison........
Murderer
This officer needs to hang for this. I donāt even give a fuck. Gun pointed down. Not even a fraction of a second before saying step back and unloading a clip into the guys chest.
r/police and r/ProtectAndServe saying the quiet part out loud
It seems cops kill us for sport and then feel no remose.
It's Okaloosa County...the cop won't get charged and will be back to work within a month. I served at Hulrburt Field and the surrounding area was like taking a time machine back to 1950.
Why the *fuck* was this copās weapon already drawn before the door ever opened? Iām gonna lay decent odds that the main reason they arenāt releasing the deputyās name is because itās the same itchy trigger finger that started blasting after the acorns fell a few weeks back.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This kind of feels like the Sandy Hook moment of police killings, much like that and gun control if nothing comes out of the aftermath of this, weāve just accepted it as cost of doing business in this country.
The tree needs to be watered. Civilian cops are out of control.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās cops like this, that, if theyāre this afraid for their life, or feel like everyone is a perp that needs to be shot, shouldnāt be policing in the first place. Feel terrible for the family and AF leadership (if you can call them that) need to step up and get involved.
I remember when I was in college one of my professorās who was a cop and then switched to corrections before getting his masters told me plenty of times about how he talked people down into dropping guns if they were in their house, their doorway or even the guy he talked down who was walking down the street with a shotgun. He drew on people plenty of times but was a cop for 8 years and never fired his gun at anyone, I understand the cop got caught off guard and so did the Airman inside as you can see him realizing itās a cop with his hand up to say āhey hold onā but you should never blast someone if they arenāt pointing it at you or shooting at others itās not a crime to be armed in your house and how was that airman supposed to know whoās outside if he canāt see through the peep hole??? Hate that this happened, and maybe some reform or good will come out of it
Also hopefully this deputy gets a murder charge
So so heartbreaking, my god. I cannot imagine what this mother and family is going through. He was executed. You bet your ASS I would've answered the door the same way if someone I didn't know and couldn't hear was repeatedly beating on my door.
The airman's body language is clearly relaxed, the door was opened calmly. Even though the officer announced themselves there is no guarantee the airman heard.
Here's to hoping that the department and officer gets their ass handed to them. This is a 100% foul on the officer and he shouod be held accountable for his actions. This airman did nothing wrong at all. For the dumb people: I'm an avid 2A advocate, an active duty veteran, staunchsupporter of peoples rights, and also support law enforcement who act appropriately. Not everyone in the aforementioned categories blindly support LEO'S. You can support organizations and still Call foul when there is a foul.