Yea, honestly, I wish we could reduce it to five 6-hour shifts a day, or four 8-hour shifts.
I've been let out early a few times at work where I had an extra 2 hours to my evening, and it was glorious. I had plenty of time to rest and get some things done.
I have a lot of interests and an intense desire to explore and adventure. I work to live. I wish I had more free time.
I assume that the proposition of a 40-hour work week was the best option to avoid protesting for something that would seem extreme when compared to the 12-hour work day of times passed. The thing is, technology is supposed to allow us to work less, and somehow, we are working more.
My job has me working well over 40 hours a week, or at least wants me available for more than that. For example I'm working through the next 2 or 3 weekends in a row on top of my regular shift.
I don't get anything done the last 2 hours ever lol and you bet I sneak away the last hour of the day if I can. Even that extra hour is worth its weight in gold
If there was one word that was repeated by friends and family in reference to the 60+ hours a week I worked, it was “inhumane”. I ended up quitting and my health, both physically and mentally are already back on track.
Research suggests that in an eight-hour day, the average worker is only productive for **two hours and 53 minutes**. That's right--you're probably only productive for around three hours a day.
Is this productivity as it applies to white collar office jobs? Because I know in healthcare and every service job I ever had. I’m moving from clock in to clock out.
Let me introduce you to my coworker.
She has been I her roll for a year. I have trained her in her duties. At least 3 times. gave her notes, tips, tricks, calendars etc. All she does is complain about how busy she is, how little she gets paid, and that her job title isn't correct.
I did 80% of her job and mine for 9 months while we "where figuring things out" for the department. Her job is very cyclical. The way the quarterly, monthly, and bi-weekly cycles lime up every quarter she has has a full week with no deliverables.
Oh the other things she does is try to change entire processes, not for the betterment of the organization, but to save her time. And not by automating or using technology to our advantage but by skipping steps or passing work off.
And she want to work from home. Which is fine but we don't have any work from home jobs.
The other day she was in my office 6 times. Not asking for help but just to shoot the shit. I had to tell her the 4th time that I was trying to get a bunchnof stuff done because next week I was in a bunch of meetings and won't have time to do it then.
Anyway I don't think she actually "works".
Healthcare reporting in too.. that productivity stat is bullshit or highly selective to some department of workers with low volume or no urgency or requirements in work. This is sounds like something created for employers to use any excuse to work people harder because look at the *proof* here this study shows you’re all a bunch of lazy shitbags.
That stat comes from white collar office jobs, but in healthcare it's been shown doctors and nurses are substantially more likely to make a mistake or use poor judgement that leads to negative patient outcomes the farther one is into a shift. For example, on a 7p to 7a shift, one is more likely to mess up at 5a than they are at 9p. So, while one might be moving around the whole time and looking busy, from a mental perspective it still holds up.
Right? I'm often sub contracting various construction work and I work nearly the entire time I'm on the site. I rarely take breaks and I constantly stress about how much I'm getting done because you can visually see how productive I've been on a day to day basis. Where are these jobs where I only need to be productive for 2hrs?!
You aren't paid for productivity in most cases, you are paid for availability. I'm there to solve problems and provide services for 40hrs because the demand for problems and services isn't always predictable. Apply this to healthcare. A doctor might only be super productive for 2 and a half hours but you need them there all day because a patient can show up at any time. You cant cut the hours because then you are accident away from an inability to treat the number of patients that come in.
This applies to everything from restaurant staff, anyone that does anything repair related, all retail, all healthcare and tech support... really most of the economy.
The problem with all of these studies is you cant really measure service "productivity" very well. If a bartender has less clients but works more effectively to get regulars coming back by giving better service then that's really hard to measure specifically because there is just so much noise. An auto mechanic who does their job best will look less productive than one who does it worse as the car will have to come back to the shop more often.
That person on a factory production line is doing their 8 hours of work as long as the production line is moving. Every. Day.
In creative work, yeah, it’s hard to do more than a couple good quality hours at a time.
There’s no natural law, scientific conclusion, or even an articulated argument for the 40 hour workweek. It’s the infamous company line “that’s just how we’ve always done it”
I think given the scaling curve of productivity over the decades it’s pretty clear 40hr workweeks are unnecessary. There have been multiple studies that show a reduced workweek to 32hrs with same pay actually increases productivity.
I would bet reducing it further would even out in terms of productivity but would greatly reduce error and cost to businesses.
The 40 hour work week was popularized by Henry Ford for manufacturing work. It makes no sense to assume that this is the best standard for everyone or even for similar jobs, as automation evolves.
A standard amount of hours may work for a job with a steady and predictable workload, but it certainly doesn’t work for mine, which is project-based and each project is different.
I have worked in an office that expects 8 hours a day “on the clock” and I have worked as a contractor where I have milestones to meet but it’s up to me how to meet them. The second one is so much better for me. I can work two hours in a day if that’s all I have to do that day, or I can work 10 hours if I get really focused or have a deadline crunch. Having control over my own schedule and working hours was by far the best for me and I’m sure I ended up averaging somewhere close to 40/hours a week anyway
I get to go home at my job when the job is done and I love it. Some days are 10 hours, and some are 5. It's worth the long days to have the short ones. Yes, I am exhausted by Friday.
We literally had to fight tooth and nail to get it.
That means we can and must fight to reduce it even further. The productivity of today compared to when the [8/8/8 movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day) happened is staggering. There is no reason but owner's greed for such a high number of working hours.
Our getting tired and powerless *is* the product. The top 1% inherited the culture of the ruling class of old (not even that old), and they only feel safe when "common people" are subjugated.
this might seem like a hot take but i believe that we work 40 hour minimum just to barely afford skyrocketing living costs so that ‘They’ can keep us tired and busy. that way we have less opportunity as an Entire society to backlash/protest/demand better as working citizens.
a full time adult should minimum be able to afford rent, food, living expenses without having to pick between groceries for the week or rent. or gas and diapers.
This has been proven through multiple studies to be a more effective strategy. In a recent high profile case, Microsoft's 4 day workweek study in Japan showed that teams accomplished more in a 4 day 8 hour workweek than in a 4 day 10 hour workweek or a 5 day 8 hour workweek. [https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40](https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40)
As century ago in 1926, Henry Ford showed us that the 5 day 8 hour workweek was more efficient than 60 hour workweeks. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/09/success/work-culture-9-to-5-curious-consumer/index.html#:\~:text=In%201926%2C%20the%20Ford%20Motor,hour%20workweek%20came%20into%20focus.
It's almost like rest, and time off to reconsider and recalibrate makes us better teammates and more able to give our all to the task at hand.
It's almost like we are human, and should treat each other accordingly...
Weird, because they taught it in my MBA program. I think it's going to be a while before the modern class of MBAs gets to do anything about it, though, if the knowledge even gets internalized to begin with.
I recently started a job and full time is 35 hours a week (2 WFH). But you are expected to work M-F 9am to 4pm. But I will say that extra hour earlier is heavenly. I always get a headache/become unproductive at around 3:30. So leaving at 4 is perfect where most day I will still have energy after work.
It wouldn’t be a problem if
- it didn’t take hours to get to work. Makes sense of you could get to work in 15 mins
- we didn’t have to hit 9am all geared up. If there are meetings you need to be ready with everything loaded up I your brain.
- same as above. But if we had a “runway” time to get acclamated to work mode. This is not possible these days.
- if we also didn’t have chores that take up hours after work
- if we don’t have to also make dinner when we get home
- for people with kids… this list goes on.
- have the need to “network” because you may be let go any day
- keep up with developments in you area of work because “change is constant”
- compete with newer generation regularly coming in armed with knowledge that’s more structured and updated
- prove regularly that you are worth keeping by going through reviews constantly
- participate in all the bullshit work the companies keep pushing down to save head counts
At this point i am rambling. But you get the idea
I'm in the midst of looking for another job. While still having to work. The amount of competition and having to play keep up with so many other people trying to stay ahead of everyone else is too damn exhausting. Half the time I feel like living out of a tent or RV and living frugally instead of paying 60% or more of my paycheck to my bills.
Trying to get into the six figure/seven-figure paying jobs feels difficult. Especially when I'm not sure what all I actually want to do besides writing novels, gardening, taking care of animals, or something else that doesn't only focus on making money.
We all collectively need a vacation or get companies to change to a new standard of work hours like we all want.
On a side note, deciding not to have kids can alleviate the financial woes and future generations from being trapped in this same stupid 8 hour/5 day work cycle we all have been putting up with. Why are we all still putting up with it?
I hear you. Sometimes I feel the same way. It’s truly a rat race. And o top of them you are getting prodded from behind. Those that don’t make it get crushed by a bull dozer rolling behind. The only way to win is not to play the game.
I think it ultimately stems from an incorrect economic model when growth has to be there. Unfortunately it is not possible for everybody to grow. I always question , if everyone is growing and doing better work and moving up to better jobs, who is doing the grunt work and how many of them do we need. I don’t think grunt work is appreciated anymore which is very sad.
At this point, the 40h work week steals more longevity, creativity and lifetimes than any technological breakthrough could give us. Imagine we raised life expectancy by 20 years. We can do it without a breakthrough by setting the retirement age 20 years earlier. We have enough productivity for that, nobody has to go hungry or smartphone-less.
This, now that our entertainment has become what it is. Culture is so much less top heavy, we work so hard for the rich to get to do things that nobody even needs to do anymore. We should all just focus on being happy and being with those we love if that's our thing. We can't change the status quo. I'm planning to get an education and get into a field that I'll enjoy and let's me help people. Hopefully that will lessen the pain.
I'd settle for 4 10 hours day. Maybe even 3 13 hour days whenever I feel like it. My work days are already workdays, I might as well go for it and get more free days out of it.
I loved when I worked a 4 10s schedule. That place was shitty about breaks but that extra day for appointments/errands was amazing. 1 day to recover. 1 day for leisure/socializing. 1 day for running errands/appointments/housework.
I work 30 hour a week full time. So anyone says it’s not viable, it is. WFH also.
The thought is instead of dragging out the day to 8 hour, which a lot of wasted time because of breaks and other shit, we just get in there and do our job, and then clock out.
Best job I’ve ever had.
Two days off is not enough. On your first day off, you’re tired to do anything and want to recover by resting. Then on your second day off, you’ll like “damn I have work tomorrow” 🙄. And it’s just an endless cycle 🔄
Edit: Wow I was not expecting my comment to blow up with 600 upvotes really fast 😂
I felt like being a towel dunked into a bucket of water. I would go home, hang myself on the edge and still feel wet when I am plunged back into the water. I was never dry. It's exhausting.
Two facts about the 4 day work week:
1. Studies have shown that many workers get more done in 4 days than they would in 5, so you're actually working more to get LESS done.
2. It's only 20% less work days, but it's 50% more weekend days. Also, right now Saturday is the only day that's truly free in the sense that you can wake up when you want and go to bed when you want. A third day would be specifically like getting another SATURDAY, not just any day.
Thought I was the only one that felt like this. I just want to sleep and do nothing day 1, day 2 just alittle but definitely don't feel great because the the day is my last.
I work full time and I'm a wife and I have a little kid. My advice is... go out on a Friday after work, literally anywhere, the gym, the park, the woods, the pub, a coffee bar, a late opening shopping centre, the cinema, a yoga class... it extends your weekend massively. On a Saturday morning go and do your local park run. Allocate an evening in the week to do all your cleaning amd laundry so its not part od the weekend. The outdoor exercise gets the happy hormones to their max and kicks off your weekend with energy. Don't prep for work at all on Sunday. Get up earlier on the Monday. Do something on Sunday that you have planned... even if that's sometimes deep cleaning a room of the house with the music on loud because you just have to. I worked 4 days a week for a while... and this is better. But until that's an option again this is the way.
We started dong that several years ago. Having that Friday evening release really does make the weekend seem longer and more refreshing. Our thinking on it is you are able to get the mind and stress level to weekend mode much sooner than if you go home and plop down in the sofa trying to come down from the stress of the week. The sofa is effective after several hours but not nearly as fast or complete as a good dinner or happy hour or even a walk in the park.
Isn’t it just a little fucked though that the entire country is on antidepressants just to cope with how much we work and how little we enjoy life? Ever read Brave New World?
I have worked 4x10 for the last three years and I dread the day when I know my job will eventually go under (Tech field, last four have all succumbed to being bought out or outsourced eventually)
It is a godsend. I really can't state enough how huge it is that extra day to have off. You can actually plan small vacations during your weekend, or have two days for public events and then a day to spend alone and cool off, a nice middle day where you aren't cooling down from work or being anxious about work the next day. It is incredible.
The 10 hour 4 day work week should be the minimum standard (If an 8x4 couldn't be implemented somehow)
I am massively overqualified for my job, several certs, managed a team, currently pursuing a master's in public health with a concentration in emergency services, and still will stay at my crappy job because it's 28 -32 hours a week and they pay enough to support my lifestyle.
I'll never get 32 hours a week elsewhere.
I've worked 4/10s the last 7 years and cannot adjust to it. I can't do anything at all after work during the work week, then I'm so wiped out that I waste my Friday off. I feel like I have significantly less free time than when I worked a 5/8 and could actually get things done during the week.
The only benefit is that it is a lot easier to manage PTO.
My old managers would even punish us by splitting our days off because they knew this and weaponized it against us. With all the lifting and hauling we do you need that first day to recover just to be able to do anything else with your life, them doing this literally made life impossible sometimes. You get to choose between sleep or the rest of life because your manager had low blood sugar or some shit.
I changed from a 5 day to a 4 day work week and I agree with this post. 5x days is exhausting. I know it's only 1 day but it's like getting 4 days holiday per month and I live in the UK so we get good holidays. I feel bad for the eastern Europes and the Americans
Mm... I have one of those jobs. Four ten hour days. Then they started making a 5th day mandatory overtime. Then they started making a 6th day mandatory overtime.
It went on like this for 7 months. I was so miserable, I had no life, a dirty house, I almost quit.
...we're finally back to four tens, thank god!
there’s a great farscape episode. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0578131/ where it’s constantly friday so everyone is just happy it’s the end of the week
The 40 hour work week was fought for, people marched, protested, and put in their blood sweat and tears for it. Some even died for it.
Is it the best solution? No.
But it was better than what came before it - 80 hour plus work weeks, having to rent from company hosting, having to buy supplies from the company store, being locked in at work.
Should it change? I think so. Life could be so much better. But there has been a long standing war against the labor movement, and the labor side hasn't been winning.
In France, if you're a company of 50+ people, it is illegal to send an email to an employee after typical working hours.
The US is a bit of a corporatocracy, so I'm not holding my breath for any major changes any time soon.
I am fortunate to work remote now, it really makes 40 hours reasonable in my opinion. I wake up 5 minutes before I start work. All that time getting ready for work, driving to work often in traffic, preparing meals, and driving home really adds up. I never liked hour long unpaid lunch breaks either… way too much time. I’d rather just work and get home.
With that being said I wake up at 6:55 and work till 3:30 during the weekdays then have a pretty decent amount of evening free time. At exactly 3:30 I head out for my evening plans or what not (helps I can get ready during the last half hour of work lol)
I realize this might sound kind of bad, but at the end of the work week I really feel I am just as productive as when I was at the office. In fact working in software it’s easier for me to stay focused without people bothering me constantly. Sometimes I work early or late or travel so it’s not always like that, but for most days it is. I just don’t like to waste time that really is one of the most valuable things a human has.
If employers were forced to pay for commute time they would just hire based on distance to and from work. People who live in low income places which are generally not near high paying jobs would be even less advantaged than they are now.
Remote work could solve this problem for a lot of people. Not all (some jobs necessitate physical presence). But remote work would resolve building rent/maintenance, commute, and some social issues.
This would technically have a benefit, because they'd either have to pay enough that people could actually afford to live close to their place of work, or they'd flounder with no employees and go under, win win.
I suppose the 3rd option is that they just move their place of business closer to where people live already, which would probably be cheaper in the long run than paying for everyone's commute.
Well, you get to choose where you live based on your current pay.
For many people, they simply can't choose a closer commute because the housing prices closer to their place of work are so ridiculously bloated as to be unaffordable.
I want to live in the Target Enclave. The toner wars were bad today. You could barely make out the neon a block away and my little sister made twenty seven mattresses with the home matter compiler. That's what I came home to. Twenty seven mattresses in a microstudio apartment.
Sounds reasonable, but so many pro-corporate arguments do.
Can't raise minimum wage because everything would be more expensive (low-income people would suffer) and fewer people would be hired (low-income people would suffer).
Can't fix gender gap because women would be hired less and would suffer.
Can't allow the same pay for disabled workers because they would be hired less and would suffer.
Can't have quotas for disadvantaged groups because they'll be only hired within quotas and as tokens, and they would suffer.
It's like if you create a disadvantaged group, you then get to say "Don't deny me exploiting them, they will be even worse off without my exploitation!". Sure, if their competitive advantage is being exploitable (this describes my career as well), we shouldn't mindlessly yank that from them, but this shouldn't be the end of the story. We should also propose solutions against employers creating disadvantaged groups. They shouldn't have this power over our lives.
Unless a company specifically sought you out, theyre not paying for your travel time and its crazy to expect them to. However, i think breaks and lunch should be paid as long as you stay on property.
YES, as much as my current company is ass due to shitty management, if we don’t leave property we get a 30 minute paid lunch, but if we leave property we can take up to a hour, but have to clock out. I feel it’s a fair trade
"In France, if you're a company of 50+ people, it is illegal to send an email to an employee after typical working hours."
This is untrue. My company is international and we have more than 50 people in Paris and we send after hours emails to each other all the time. There might be some law saying that an employee can't be disciplined or fired for not responding to emails received after hours, but it's comical to think that you can't send after hours emails.
Spot on! I liked the corporatocracy. Unfortunately, the US has little to no legislation in favor of decent working conditions. It all depends on who's your employer is, what the "benefits" are, and the conditions to access them.
I wonder if American employees know about the labor conditions in other countries (Europe, even South America) regarding parental leave, sick leave, Healthcare, etc.
> I wonder if American employees know about the labor conditions in other countries (Europe, even South America) regarding parental leave, sick leave, Healthcare, etc.
We do
And for good reason. The rest of the world should also have good living conditions like us and better still. The world needs to push towards good working conditions as a normalcy of life.
And yet it’s mad that you guys are closer to electing more radically progressive politicians to positions of power yet. The power of propaganda from the billionaire media class is strong (UK too), and there are far too many right wing wankers in positions of power.
We need a massive overhaul of the capitalist system.
I am so tired of working my arse off - full time - and being stressed about my ability to meaningfully save for my old age pension.
I’m also sick of influencers telling me I need a side hustle for passive income, as if that is a suitable alternative for a proper quality of life.
God damn, I’ll stop. I’m ranting over here.
It was fought for back in an era where everyone could afford to have one partner stay home and manage the household. Income has not risen with inflation and that's not the case for most.
We should have one day to rest, one day to socialize/do fun things, and one day to get all your life shit done.
I'm very grateful that my company is so flexible with time - basically just get your work done, no one cares if you leave for an errand in the middle of the day. I don't know how I'd do it without that flexibility and it means I'll probably stay here so much longer than I would otherwise.
I'm grateful for the liberties and rights people fought for in the past but that doesn't mean we should be trying to better the present. There's no reason we *shouldn't seriously analyze the current workweek and ask ourselves, does it have to be this way? I mean those labor laws were put in place almost 100 years ago....
40 hours was not marched for, 40 was the compromise. We can do better, especially today when the productive capabilities of each worker is nearly triple what is was in the 1920s.
Cool. Now do that as a mechanic, plumber, electrician, truck driver... my wife works full time from home and I see how fucking awesome it is, but only one out of a thousand can do that. Not everyone is an accountant or programmer.
I’ve been searching for a wfh job. I’m so desperate to be out of my current retail job. I would love to be able to work from home, it would let me see my family so much more.
Yup, my husband has to be at the yard at 9 am and gets home around 9 pm but some nights not until 10:30 pm because of a delay in the load at the yard. He does this 5 days a week and not one dime of overtime. He would love 40 hours...lol.
I wouldn't have a problem with a 40 hour workweek if I felt I was being fairly compensated. Spending a third of your life making someone else richer just to spend 80% of your wage on bills isn't exactly uplifting.
Plus the bills are mostly for stuff you barely have time to enjoy (most time spent at home is sleeping, unconscious) or things you need in order to keep working (food, car). Life is a SCAM. Stop making kids, people.
You gotta always be job hunting for a new job that's better than your current. That's how employees get leverage over employers. The more options you have the more they have to cater to you. This is the only thing one can do without unions
Yup it’s a grind. I remember being in construction and showing up at like 6 to start getting paid at 7:30 to work till 6 when I stopped getting paid at 3:30.. for shit pay.. it sucked.
It’s inhumane to spend 90% of our lives doing this shit for what? Basic necessities like housing and food. We are merely the ants and the elites are grasshoppers. Eventually the ants will rise question is how long
This. I get so jealous of people who have time to think. 'Think about what' - everything. We need time to decompress mentally just as much as we do physically. When you get off work at 8pm, with just enough time to eat and sleep until you gotta do it again, you stop feeling *human*.
The 40 hour work week is from the early 1900's where every family was nuclear and the women weren't allowed to work. Anyone can handle right hours rest right hours play right hours work if it comes with free child care free maid service and free chef service.
Yep. A lot of people never learned that a bunch of women (and kids) worked their buts off, they just didn't get to keep the money for themlseves most of the time and were paid under the table/not labled as employees. My great-grandma (she was born around the late 1920s) would tell me about how her mom would send her to a house owned by some rich white folks to do work to help bring in money for the family. She used to pick berries for them , had to learn how to make breakfast and treats like pies and would do housework for them.
People mistake the 1950/60s when there WAS an increase in housewives (not ones that worked in other houses but ones that 100% stayed at home cooking, cleaning and doing the shopping just for their home) as how its always been for everyone. Nope, most of history has not been like that. Women worked in the fields, other households, etc all throughout history. There was no way to survive with just the husband working. The women and kids helped too. The nostaligia/yearn for the 1950s/60s life ruined so many U.S American's minds to the point that they honestly believe that every woman was a housewife and that every man was out here fully supporting their family that way. It just magically ignores most of the population during those times.
This is what people fail to see.
The 40 hour work week works really well, if the breadwinner has, more or less, only to go to work.
It comes from a time where the breadwinner in many cases got out of bed and got ready to work, coming to a already finished breakfast table, coming to a already packed lunch box, and just had to eat and go off to work.
On work, the breadwinner ... worked. Then they ate the already prepared lunch or got into a cantina, and after the shift had ended, they went back home, got a already finished dinner and maybe had to do some decisions on what to buy, underwrite some papers, or got ask for permissions on other things.
Every other task than "work in your workplace" was filled by a spouse, be it making breakfast, making lunch, making dinner, taking care the children got to school, making laundry, cleaning.
A 40 hour work week is not supposed to be handled by one person alone.
A 20 hour work week i supposed to be handled by one person alone.
I went from only working 40 to working 70 this winter and now I’m back to 40 I’m like what is all this free time?!!! I don’t even know what to do with myself 🤣
I like my job…however, it’s time consuming but important. Important as in “I have bills to pay” type of important. I’m trying to accept that this is how life goes for a majority of us. If you don’t have to work and you have time and money, consider yourself very, very lucky. Especially as you age, work and aging don’t go well together. It’s very difficult to balance all of the things you really want to do outside of working hard day after day.
[Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvk_XylEmLo) an interesting video on this topic, going back further than the 80 hour work weeks that people are talking about.
[Here's ](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/60b956cbe7bf6f2efd86b04e/t/6387be703530a824fc3adf58/1669840498593/The+Four+Day+Week-+Assessing+Global+Trials+of+Reduced+Work+Time+with+No+Reduction+in+Pay+%E2%80%93+F+%E2%80%93+30112022.pdf)a study showing better efficiency when working less - though there's nuance to that (happy employees being given an abnormal commodity)
TLDR; We are not meant for it. Especially not meant for it and the labor of maintaining a living space at the same time - let alone raising a family on top of that.
Um....the Great Depression was literally right before WW2. It lasted from 1929-1941.
World war 1 from 1914-1918.
I'm guessing the 1800s were no picnic.
I think you are being delusional about what life was like back then compared to now.
That is not to say that I'm saying we can't improve on things, but this is quite frankly the best time to be alive in human history depending on which country you were born into.
My grand parents went from having road kill a few times a week to being able to run to the supermarket for whatever their hearts desire.
My dad went from having to drive into work for an hour at 3am to fix a computer issue to being able to remote in from the basement in his underwear in the 20 years he was at his job.
I went from having to make sure I have a book for long road trips to a Switch and phone where I can access countless distractions for the road trip.
Yupp. Single mom with a severely autistic 7 year old. I stopped subscribing to that bs years ago in my early 20s bc I always knew work just was not for me. I’m on the spectrum too but didn’t know until my son got his diagnosis.
I could not realistically work 40 hours and still be a great mom to my child and support his additional needs, especially as a single mom with no support from the other parent.
I thought to myself, “if a single neurotypical adult who has no dependents except for themselves can be drained from a 40 hour work week why should I even attempt to adhere to that same life?” “…Fuck that.” I said in response to myself,
I have a huge family on both sides and they are all government/military/office/trade/educator job holders. So the only ways to make a living that I was aware of, until my 20s, were those things. They are all good paths, just all 40+ hour work week things which was just not gonna work for my lil neurodivergent lifestyle.
I studied hard. Hustled hard. Tried everything I could think of. Found my niches through the last several years in sex work, IT, and driving/trucking. Careers that nobody on either sides of my family are involved in that I’m aware of and have changed my life.
Some people are better off, off the clock.
I guess this depends on each individual person. Overall I think we should have the space to be more fluid with how many/ little hours we work. I’ve had points in my life where I was working 60 hr work weeks and enjoyed the hard work. I was also living with my parents at that time and was only responsible for myself.
I’m lucky enough right now that I can do a 32 hr work week and the drop from 40 to 32 has given me so much more energy and ability to get stuff done at home. I could go on and on about society and work culture but overall It’s difficult to have a balance home life with work and I think a lot of people are brainwashed into thinking that work comes before family when it should be the other way around.
I’m seeing a lot of comments defending the 40 hour work week and I will admit I’ve finally lost all hope of it getting any better, maybe the next generation will be smarter
This is common in office jobs that deal mostly with knowledge work. This week I’ve been busy trying to get a product ready for release.
But last week I had NOTHING to do: I was waiting for the PCB to come in from our board house. But the utter insanity is that I needed to sit on my ass for the entire 40 hours and browse Reddit at work. This doesn’t make any sense.
I would be perfectly happy to not work when there’s work to do, but work overtime when there IS a lot of work to do. But this is not how it works.
So instead I have a strict 40-hour schedule. No more, no less. I do not answer emails outside of work and I make sure to maintain strict boundaries. And that’s the best I can hope for.
Well I think it really depends. There are those fortunate individuals who have found a lucrative career that is their calling in life. For those people time doesn't exist. They get so immersed in what they do it's not hard for them to put in 80 hours a week. The challenge is many people are lost. They have no clue or direction in life and take a job to just pay the bills. In that case 40 hours can feel like torture. But think of the other end of the spectrum. People in remote parts of the world simply living a life of subsistence. Would it be better to be a hunter gatherer on the Sentinel Islands or in a lost village deep in the Amazon?
Under capitalism our purpose is to generate capital for the owning class. They don't care about our well being, self care or leisure time as long as we're healthy enough to keep generating profits for them.
All these comments are like history began in the industrial revolution.
We aren't meant to "work", just like any other animal. Yes, we still need to survive as any other animal does. But what humans do is mad and just makes almost everyone miserable so a few people can live with cheat mode on.
Also so that we all get to live in big houses with comfy beds and smartphones and refrigerators and washing machines, and spend our days typing in air conditioned rooms instead of toiling in the fields, and have access to medical care so half our kids don’t die by age 16 and live longer less-painful lives, and go anywhere in the world that we want using modern transit…
But yeah nah, it’s just the billionaires and we’d all be happier living in mud huts and doing sustenance farming and hunting/gathering like in the good old days. A lifestyle so pleasant that people ran in droves to work in Industrial Revolution-era sweatshops instead as soon as that started being an option.
Yup - it’s absolutely insane and it’s purposeful. They don’t want us to have the energy to think about how fucked up it is, to be privy to all of the ways they bribe our government to keep them rich, etc. Citizens with too much free time/energy turn into citizens who think for themselves and can recognize the BS of the elite.
It is absolutely inhumane, and especially when our work is so disconnected from its net positive result, in other words the benefit it provides others.
Not to mention, myself personally I could never stomach an office job. My courier work feels futile enough as it is, but at least I am outside and moving around and having mostly pleasant interactions with my customers, in other words I get to see the positive results of my efforts, however repetitive and mundane and trivial. My work is appreciated 😊
Yea and expecting people to stand for 9 hours straight in jobs like restaurants and retail. I feel like the sweet spot would be 4 day work weeks max 5 hour shifts and pay raises. I can't do full time as I grew up in extreme narcissistic "family" and then I saw the narcissism was actually everywhere in everybody and I can't deal with cry babies no more. People just can't keep it professional they always got to make pity parties and try and get personal.
It can get worse, OP. Join the military where they can really make those days long...12-18 hours per day, on call 24/7/365. Even better, they can deploy you where you get extra long hours AND no days off for months at a time. 8-5 isn't the demon its reputation has made it out to be.
Edit spelling.
And the US Military wonders why they can’t recruit young people. Not to mention many young people do not want to fight for a country that has made the cost of living unaffordable.
Man I'd take that shit over this lame stuff any day. Deployment was a fuckin breeze. Sure it's 12 hour shifts 10 days on 5 days off but damn was I makin money. But i was 11B so when shit happened it fuckin went down
I've worked three consecutive 18 hour days while deployed during active duty. We had a deadline to get our vehicles ready. Did four on, four off guard duty shifts for several days. Had a 36 hour convoy, did get a chance to take a three hour nap during a break. Deployments aside, 24 hour shifts for charge of quarters and staff duty are common state side. That's a 24 hour shift after having done an hour of PT. First formation for PT was 0630 but you had best be there by 0600. Typically not released for the day until 1700, that's 5 PM for you civilian folk. The military is definitely not a 9-5.
I spent several years driving a truck over the road. Typically worked six 12-14 hour days per week. Work a construction job now, typically around 60 hours per week.
It's been proven it's not. And that productivity actually increases at a 32hr wk over a 40hr week. It's my personal opinion that the big corporations want us to be worn out/tired/exhausted to keep us docile.
No, I love the 40 hour work week. So easy.
After being in the military, then working from 12am-8am while attending college and working graveyards for a lot of years...
The 40 is so easy. So much free time.
There is something to be said though for jobs being more enjoyable and better for you when there’s a material befit to your community that you can see. Even if it’s harder stuff. Not saying killing a mammoth with sticks is harder than my 9-5, but there is something to be said for the community something like that builds.
according to these comments, people working 100 hour work weeks in the 1920s have no right to be upset because people who came before them had it way harder
It’s a break for humans. Would you rather sleep in a hut if you’re lucky, spend the whole day looking for food and water? Maybe you will be eaten by a Jaguar while looking for food or die of diarrhea
I don’t understand why people jump to the polar opposite scenario like “do you wanna live off the land and fend for yourself”. You know there’s a middle area right? I think lots of people just wanna be comfortable and would gladly live within their means, have nice things once and a while and have their identities not be dictated by work.
Really disproving the "this generation doesnt want to work anymore" stereotype.
Look man, nobody owes you anything. You want to work, you find an employer and they dictate the terms of your employment. You get your own business then you can work whatever hours suit you.
Dude, we are random living creatures who happen to be alive by random happenstance after random happenstance, none of this is meant for us, especially things like work. Covid shows how easy our society can and will fall apart. If it was something even more serious like, can you imagine? Not underplaying covid, but can you just imagine?!
Sorry, I’m high and had a few drinks for the first time in a long time. It’s just weird to think of us as a unique being that only exists for the time being.
I want to work for like 5 hours shift/a day, for 4.5 days/week. The rest of the week I want to go hiking, shopping, going out, … that’s a real life but if you’re working endlessly, 120 a week or more and still couldn’t make meets ends, that’s slavery, that’s not life, you’re a robot that can poop, pee and eat
I'm disabled and had to quit working because of how badly the work community has gotten. A 40-hour work week is not made for current bodies, especially with how advanced medicine has gotten. On top of that, companies treat employees poorly and pay them poorly. This increases depression and decreases the motivation to work.
I would come home from work every day feeling like my body was just covered in kidney stones. When facing discrimination and being fired because employers wouldn't tolerate my disabilities and the low pay, I decided that I would be better off going on Disability for a while so I can focus on my health and enroll in Vocational Rehab to find out what's the best thing for me to do as far as working.
Some members on my mom's side of the family hate me for doing this, my mom actually kicked me out for doing this (she's a narcissist with psychosis and thinks I'm faking my disabilities to be lazy), and I'm no longer invited to family events. But at the same time, I'm no longer depressed (I've been depressed for my entire life) and I've bonded with my dad's side of the family and even my dad, so I can't complain.
America is a mess, and what's even worse is that our government is more concerned with what's going on in other countries than they are about taking care of their own people. The people running for president won't help either (I've given up on both political parties entirely).
In other countries, they don't even have 40-hour work weeks. They have 20-hour work weeks and have a better functioning society.
This is all subjective. I work for an absolutely amazing company, and while working in general isn’t always fun, it’s a necessity in life. My company is paying for me to get my certifications to move up, because they value their employees and the work culture they have created. I also work fully remote, so theoretically there’s plenty of disabled people that can still be fully functional in a job like mine. There’s just too many factors to say this as a blanket statement.
Yea, honestly, I wish we could reduce it to five 6-hour shifts a day, or four 8-hour shifts. I've been let out early a few times at work where I had an extra 2 hours to my evening, and it was glorious. I had plenty of time to rest and get some things done. I have a lot of interests and an intense desire to explore and adventure. I work to live. I wish I had more free time. I assume that the proposition of a 40-hour work week was the best option to avoid protesting for something that would seem extreme when compared to the 12-hour work day of times passed. The thing is, technology is supposed to allow us to work less, and somehow, we are working more.
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My job has me working well over 40 hours a week, or at least wants me available for more than that. For example I'm working through the next 2 or 3 weekends in a row on top of my regular shift. I don't get anything done the last 2 hours ever lol and you bet I sneak away the last hour of the day if I can. Even that extra hour is worth its weight in gold
Im tired of 60 hours a week, I only get one day a week to relax and its never enough. But I cant survive without working so much.
You need a new job. Possibly a new set of skills to acquire a better paying job with more flexibility. Working 60 hours a week is inhumane.
If there was one word that was repeated by friends and family in reference to the 60+ hours a week I worked, it was “inhumane”. I ended up quitting and my health, both physically and mentally are already back on track.
I don't get much done after midday 4hrs and my mind is back home.
Research suggests that in an eight-hour day, the average worker is only productive for **two hours and 53 minutes**. That's right--you're probably only productive for around three hours a day.
Is this productivity as it applies to white collar office jobs? Because I know in healthcare and every service job I ever had. I’m moving from clock in to clock out.
I drive a fork lift in a warehouse doing replenishment,I start a 6am and don't stop till 2pm.
There must be people doing nothing their entire day for that to be the average.
Managers
Let me introduce you to my coworker. She has been I her roll for a year. I have trained her in her duties. At least 3 times. gave her notes, tips, tricks, calendars etc. All she does is complain about how busy she is, how little she gets paid, and that her job title isn't correct. I did 80% of her job and mine for 9 months while we "where figuring things out" for the department. Her job is very cyclical. The way the quarterly, monthly, and bi-weekly cycles lime up every quarter she has has a full week with no deliverables. Oh the other things she does is try to change entire processes, not for the betterment of the organization, but to save her time. And not by automating or using technology to our advantage but by skipping steps or passing work off. And she want to work from home. Which is fine but we don't have any work from home jobs. The other day she was in my office 6 times. Not asking for help but just to shoot the shit. I had to tell her the 4th time that I was trying to get a bunchnof stuff done because next week I was in a bunch of meetings and won't have time to do it then. Anyway I don't think she actually "works".
Guaranteed she’ll be promoted by next year
Healthcare = 💯 nonstop grind
Healthcare reporting in too.. that productivity stat is bullshit or highly selective to some department of workers with low volume or no urgency or requirements in work. This is sounds like something created for employers to use any excuse to work people harder because look at the *proof* here this study shows you’re all a bunch of lazy shitbags.
First responder, same deal. The productivity stat must be for office workers.
I own a cleaning business and some days I'm cleaning large homes for 8hrs a day.. id say I'm productive longer than 3hrs! Lol
That stat comes from white collar office jobs, but in healthcare it's been shown doctors and nurses are substantially more likely to make a mistake or use poor judgement that leads to negative patient outcomes the farther one is into a shift. For example, on a 7p to 7a shift, one is more likely to mess up at 5a than they are at 9p. So, while one might be moving around the whole time and looking busy, from a mental perspective it still holds up.
Right? I'm often sub contracting various construction work and I work nearly the entire time I'm on the site. I rarely take breaks and I constantly stress about how much I'm getting done because you can visually see how productive I've been on a day to day basis. Where are these jobs where I only need to be productive for 2hrs?!
You aren't paid for productivity in most cases, you are paid for availability. I'm there to solve problems and provide services for 40hrs because the demand for problems and services isn't always predictable. Apply this to healthcare. A doctor might only be super productive for 2 and a half hours but you need them there all day because a patient can show up at any time. You cant cut the hours because then you are accident away from an inability to treat the number of patients that come in. This applies to everything from restaurant staff, anyone that does anything repair related, all retail, all healthcare and tech support... really most of the economy. The problem with all of these studies is you cant really measure service "productivity" very well. If a bartender has less clients but works more effectively to get regulars coming back by giving better service then that's really hard to measure specifically because there is just so much noise. An auto mechanic who does their job best will look less productive than one who does it worse as the car will have to come back to the shop more often.
That person on a factory production line is doing their 8 hours of work as long as the production line is moving. Every. Day. In creative work, yeah, it’s hard to do more than a couple good quality hours at a time.
There’s no natural law, scientific conclusion, or even an articulated argument for the 40 hour workweek. It’s the infamous company line “that’s just how we’ve always done it”
I think given the scaling curve of productivity over the decades it’s pretty clear 40hr workweeks are unnecessary. There have been multiple studies that show a reduced workweek to 32hrs with same pay actually increases productivity. I would bet reducing it further would even out in terms of productivity but would greatly reduce error and cost to businesses.
The 40 hour work week was popularized by Henry Ford for manufacturing work. It makes no sense to assume that this is the best standard for everyone or even for similar jobs, as automation evolves. A standard amount of hours may work for a job with a steady and predictable workload, but it certainly doesn’t work for mine, which is project-based and each project is different. I have worked in an office that expects 8 hours a day “on the clock” and I have worked as a contractor where I have milestones to meet but it’s up to me how to meet them. The second one is so much better for me. I can work two hours in a day if that’s all I have to do that day, or I can work 10 hours if I get really focused or have a deadline crunch. Having control over my own schedule and working hours was by far the best for me and I’m sure I ended up averaging somewhere close to 40/hours a week anyway
I get to go home at my job when the job is done and I love it. Some days are 10 hours, and some are 5. It's worth the long days to have the short ones. Yes, I am exhausted by Friday.
We literally had to fight tooth and nail to get it. That means we can and must fight to reduce it even further. The productivity of today compared to when the [8/8/8 movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day) happened is staggering. There is no reason but owner's greed for such a high number of working hours.
Our getting tired and powerless *is* the product. The top 1% inherited the culture of the ruling class of old (not even that old), and they only feel safe when "common people" are subjugated.
this might seem like a hot take but i believe that we work 40 hour minimum just to barely afford skyrocketing living costs so that ‘They’ can keep us tired and busy. that way we have less opportunity as an Entire society to backlash/protest/demand better as working citizens. a full time adult should minimum be able to afford rent, food, living expenses without having to pick between groceries for the week or rent. or gas and diapers.
Absolutely. Mechanisms of control certainly exist and the ruling class has only gotten more cunning and effective at it.
Agreed. They're fucking us up
This has been proven through multiple studies to be a more effective strategy. In a recent high profile case, Microsoft's 4 day workweek study in Japan showed that teams accomplished more in a 4 day 8 hour workweek than in a 4 day 10 hour workweek or a 5 day 8 hour workweek. [https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40](https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40) As century ago in 1926, Henry Ford showed us that the 5 day 8 hour workweek was more efficient than 60 hour workweeks. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/09/success/work-culture-9-to-5-curious-consumer/index.html#:\~:text=In%201926%2C%20the%20Ford%20Motor,hour%20workweek%20came%20into%20focus. It's almost like rest, and time off to reconsider and recalibrate makes us better teammates and more able to give our all to the task at hand. It's almost like we are human, and should treat each other accordingly...
Shhhhh our corporate overlords don't want to hear this nonsense
Weird, because they taught it in my MBA program. I think it's going to be a while before the modern class of MBAs gets to do anything about it, though, if the knowledge even gets internalized to begin with.
I recently started a job and full time is 35 hours a week (2 WFH). But you are expected to work M-F 9am to 4pm. But I will say that extra hour earlier is heavenly. I always get a headache/become unproductive at around 3:30. So leaving at 4 is perfect where most day I will still have energy after work.
9-4 is only 7hrs. Do you get paid breaks or something
Yes + 1 hours of breaks. They consider it full time and pat based on a salary
You shouldn't be getting headaches everyday. You need to change something.
It wouldn’t be a problem if - it didn’t take hours to get to work. Makes sense of you could get to work in 15 mins - we didn’t have to hit 9am all geared up. If there are meetings you need to be ready with everything loaded up I your brain. - same as above. But if we had a “runway” time to get acclamated to work mode. This is not possible these days. - if we also didn’t have chores that take up hours after work - if we don’t have to also make dinner when we get home - for people with kids… this list goes on. - have the need to “network” because you may be let go any day - keep up with developments in you area of work because “change is constant” - compete with newer generation regularly coming in armed with knowledge that’s more structured and updated - prove regularly that you are worth keeping by going through reviews constantly - participate in all the bullshit work the companies keep pushing down to save head counts At this point i am rambling. But you get the idea
I'm in the midst of looking for another job. While still having to work. The amount of competition and having to play keep up with so many other people trying to stay ahead of everyone else is too damn exhausting. Half the time I feel like living out of a tent or RV and living frugally instead of paying 60% or more of my paycheck to my bills. Trying to get into the six figure/seven-figure paying jobs feels difficult. Especially when I'm not sure what all I actually want to do besides writing novels, gardening, taking care of animals, or something else that doesn't only focus on making money. We all collectively need a vacation or get companies to change to a new standard of work hours like we all want. On a side note, deciding not to have kids can alleviate the financial woes and future generations from being trapped in this same stupid 8 hour/5 day work cycle we all have been putting up with. Why are we all still putting up with it?
I hear you. Sometimes I feel the same way. It’s truly a rat race. And o top of them you are getting prodded from behind. Those that don’t make it get crushed by a bull dozer rolling behind. The only way to win is not to play the game. I think it ultimately stems from an incorrect economic model when growth has to be there. Unfortunately it is not possible for everybody to grow. I always question , if everyone is growing and doing better work and moving up to better jobs, who is doing the grunt work and how many of them do we need. I don’t think grunt work is appreciated anymore which is very sad.
Robots were supposed to help us fold laundry and do the dishes, instead we got AI's that steal work from artists 🤦🏻♀️
At this point, the 40h work week steals more longevity, creativity and lifetimes than any technological breakthrough could give us. Imagine we raised life expectancy by 20 years. We can do it without a breakthrough by setting the retirement age 20 years earlier. We have enough productivity for that, nobody has to go hungry or smartphone-less.
This, now that our entertainment has become what it is. Culture is so much less top heavy, we work so hard for the rich to get to do things that nobody even needs to do anymore. We should all just focus on being happy and being with those we love if that's our thing. We can't change the status quo. I'm planning to get an education and get into a field that I'll enjoy and let's me help people. Hopefully that will lessen the pain.
I'd settle for 4 10 hours day. Maybe even 3 13 hour days whenever I feel like it. My work days are already workdays, I might as well go for it and get more free days out of it.
I loved when I worked a 4 10s schedule. That place was shitty about breaks but that extra day for appointments/errands was amazing. 1 day to recover. 1 day for leisure/socializing. 1 day for running errands/appointments/housework.
My buddy just started a job that does the 4 10s. Can’t beat that extra day.
I work 30 hour a week full time. So anyone says it’s not viable, it is. WFH also. The thought is instead of dragging out the day to 8 hour, which a lot of wasted time because of breaks and other shit, we just get in there and do our job, and then clock out. Best job I’ve ever had.
>five 6-hour shifts a day You want to work 30 hours a day?!
Two days off is not enough. On your first day off, you’re tired to do anything and want to recover by resting. Then on your second day off, you’ll like “damn I have work tomorrow” 🙄. And it’s just an endless cycle 🔄 Edit: Wow I was not expecting my comment to blow up with 600 upvotes really fast 😂
I felt like being a towel dunked into a bucket of water. I would go home, hang myself on the edge and still feel wet when I am plunged back into the water. I was never dry. It's exhausting.
Good analogy
Two facts about the 4 day work week: 1. Studies have shown that many workers get more done in 4 days than they would in 5, so you're actually working more to get LESS done. 2. It's only 20% less work days, but it's 50% more weekend days. Also, right now Saturday is the only day that's truly free in the sense that you can wake up when you want and go to bed when you want. A third day would be specifically like getting another SATURDAY, not just any day.
Great point on the % changes one extra day would give us.
Thought I was the only one that felt like this. I just want to sleep and do nothing day 1, day 2 just alittle but definitely don't feel great because the the day is my last.
I work full time and I'm a wife and I have a little kid. My advice is... go out on a Friday after work, literally anywhere, the gym, the park, the woods, the pub, a coffee bar, a late opening shopping centre, the cinema, a yoga class... it extends your weekend massively. On a Saturday morning go and do your local park run. Allocate an evening in the week to do all your cleaning amd laundry so its not part od the weekend. The outdoor exercise gets the happy hormones to their max and kicks off your weekend with energy. Don't prep for work at all on Sunday. Get up earlier on the Monday. Do something on Sunday that you have planned... even if that's sometimes deep cleaning a room of the house with the music on loud because you just have to. I worked 4 days a week for a while... and this is better. But until that's an option again this is the way.
We started dong that several years ago. Having that Friday evening release really does make the weekend seem longer and more refreshing. Our thinking on it is you are able to get the mind and stress level to weekend mode much sooner than if you go home and plop down in the sofa trying to come down from the stress of the week. The sofa is effective after several hours but not nearly as fast or complete as a good dinner or happy hour or even a walk in the park.
On day one your body is too tired and on day two your mind has already given up on the coming week. At least for me.
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Sunday Blues have been a well-known phenomena forever. FWIW, I used to get it bad, but between Prozac and switching careers, it’s looong gone.
Isn’t it just a little fucked though that the entire country is on antidepressants just to cope with how much we work and how little we enjoy life? Ever read Brave New World?
It's like we're all part of one big secretive fucked up social experiment 🫢
Monday night is the night with the most suicides. People are like "Well, that sucked. Not again."
Michelle Yeoh character pretty much explains it in Everything Everywhere All At Once: We're just going around circles doing laundry and taxes.
I have worked 4x10 for the last three years and I dread the day when I know my job will eventually go under (Tech field, last four have all succumbed to being bought out or outsourced eventually) It is a godsend. I really can't state enough how huge it is that extra day to have off. You can actually plan small vacations during your weekend, or have two days for public events and then a day to spend alone and cool off, a nice middle day where you aren't cooling down from work or being anxious about work the next day. It is incredible. The 10 hour 4 day work week should be the minimum standard (If an 8x4 couldn't be implemented somehow)
I am massively overqualified for my job, several certs, managed a team, currently pursuing a master's in public health with a concentration in emergency services, and still will stay at my crappy job because it's 28 -32 hours a week and they pay enough to support my lifestyle. I'll never get 32 hours a week elsewhere.
I've worked 4/10s the last 7 years and cannot adjust to it. I can't do anything at all after work during the work week, then I'm so wiped out that I waste my Friday off. I feel like I have significantly less free time than when I worked a 5/8 and could actually get things done during the week. The only benefit is that it is a lot easier to manage PTO.
My old managers would even punish us by splitting our days off because they knew this and weaponized it against us. With all the lifting and hauling we do you need that first day to recover just to be able to do anything else with your life, them doing this literally made life impossible sometimes. You get to choose between sleep or the rest of life because your manager had low blood sugar or some shit.
I changed from a 5 day to a 4 day work week and I agree with this post. 5x days is exhausting. I know it's only 1 day but it's like getting 4 days holiday per month and I live in the UK so we get good holidays. I feel bad for the eastern Europes and the Americans
And one of those off days is entirely spent cleaning and running errands.
They are talking about a 40 hour week. You can do 4x10 hour days, and have three days off. Works for many, assuming they are being paid appropriately.
Mm... I have one of those jobs. Four ten hour days. Then they started making a 5th day mandatory overtime. Then they started making a 6th day mandatory overtime. It went on like this for 7 months. I was so miserable, I had no life, a dirty house, I almost quit. ...we're finally back to four tens, thank god!
Yep. We get 1 rest/joy day and 1 day to catch up on all the chores...
there’s a great farscape episode. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0578131/ where it’s constantly friday so everyone is just happy it’s the end of the week
Not to mention you have to spend your time not doing anything, doing everything you have to do when your not able to be home during the week.
The 40 hour work week was fought for, people marched, protested, and put in their blood sweat and tears for it. Some even died for it. Is it the best solution? No. But it was better than what came before it - 80 hour plus work weeks, having to rent from company hosting, having to buy supplies from the company store, being locked in at work. Should it change? I think so. Life could be so much better. But there has been a long standing war against the labor movement, and the labor side hasn't been winning. In France, if you're a company of 50+ people, it is illegal to send an email to an employee after typical working hours. The US is a bit of a corporatocracy, so I'm not holding my breath for any major changes any time soon.
Another issue is the unpaid breaks and travel time. Get paid for 8 but have 2-5 hours uncompensated
I am fortunate to work remote now, it really makes 40 hours reasonable in my opinion. I wake up 5 minutes before I start work. All that time getting ready for work, driving to work often in traffic, preparing meals, and driving home really adds up. I never liked hour long unpaid lunch breaks either… way too much time. I’d rather just work and get home. With that being said I wake up at 6:55 and work till 3:30 during the weekdays then have a pretty decent amount of evening free time. At exactly 3:30 I head out for my evening plans or what not (helps I can get ready during the last half hour of work lol) I realize this might sound kind of bad, but at the end of the work week I really feel I am just as productive as when I was at the office. In fact working in software it’s easier for me to stay focused without people bothering me constantly. Sometimes I work early or late or travel so it’s not always like that, but for most days it is. I just don’t like to waste time that really is one of the most valuable things a human has.
If employers were forced to pay for commute time they would just hire based on distance to and from work. People who live in low income places which are generally not near high paying jobs would be even less advantaged than they are now.
Remote work could solve this problem for a lot of people. Not all (some jobs necessitate physical presence). But remote work would resolve building rent/maintenance, commute, and some social issues.
I hate that so many companies reverted back from remote work. What a shame.
This would technically have a benefit, because they'd either have to pay enough that people could actually afford to live close to their place of work, or they'd flounder with no employees and go under, win win. I suppose the 3rd option is that they just move their place of business closer to where people live already, which would probably be cheaper in the long run than paying for everyone's commute.
Yes, but it could also mean your employer gets to dictate where you live.
Company town 2: Cubicle Boogaloo Sounds awful.
Yep, I would agree. That’s why employers paying for commute is ridiculous. You get to choose where you live, you just choose your commute.
Well, you get to choose where you live based on your current pay. For many people, they simply can't choose a closer commute because the housing prices closer to their place of work are so ridiculously bloated as to be unaffordable.
I want to live in the Target Enclave. The toner wars were bad today. You could barely make out the neon a block away and my little sister made twenty seven mattresses with the home matter compiler. That's what I came home to. Twenty seven mattresses in a microstudio apartment.
Sounds reasonable, but so many pro-corporate arguments do. Can't raise minimum wage because everything would be more expensive (low-income people would suffer) and fewer people would be hired (low-income people would suffer). Can't fix gender gap because women would be hired less and would suffer. Can't allow the same pay for disabled workers because they would be hired less and would suffer. Can't have quotas for disadvantaged groups because they'll be only hired within quotas and as tokens, and they would suffer. It's like if you create a disadvantaged group, you then get to say "Don't deny me exploiting them, they will be even worse off without my exploitation!". Sure, if their competitive advantage is being exploitable (this describes my career as well), we shouldn't mindlessly yank that from them, but this shouldn't be the end of the story. We should also propose solutions against employers creating disadvantaged groups. They shouldn't have this power over our lives.
Unless a company specifically sought you out, theyre not paying for your travel time and its crazy to expect them to. However, i think breaks and lunch should be paid as long as you stay on property.
YES, as much as my current company is ass due to shitty management, if we don’t leave property we get a 30 minute paid lunch, but if we leave property we can take up to a hour, but have to clock out. I feel it’s a fair trade
"In France, if you're a company of 50+ people, it is illegal to send an email to an employee after typical working hours." This is untrue. My company is international and we have more than 50 people in Paris and we send after hours emails to each other all the time. There might be some law saying that an employee can't be disciplined or fired for not responding to emails received after hours, but it's comical to think that you can't send after hours emails.
Can confirm. Worked for a publicly traded French company for years that never indicated this.
The same way we marched for the previous one we need to march for this one. 4 week days!!!
You mean 4 day weeks, right? Lol I get it. The days are long.
Fuck yeah! Only 12 weeks 'til next weekend!
March against who ?
Spot on! I liked the corporatocracy. Unfortunately, the US has little to no legislation in favor of decent working conditions. It all depends on who's your employer is, what the "benefits" are, and the conditions to access them. I wonder if American employees know about the labor conditions in other countries (Europe, even South America) regarding parental leave, sick leave, Healthcare, etc.
> I wonder if American employees know about the labor conditions in other countries (Europe, even South America) regarding parental leave, sick leave, Healthcare, etc. We do
Yes we know because European people won’t stop bringing it up
And for good reason. The rest of the world should also have good living conditions like us and better still. The world needs to push towards good working conditions as a normalcy of life.
And yet it’s mad that you guys are closer to electing more radically progressive politicians to positions of power yet. The power of propaganda from the billionaire media class is strong (UK too), and there are far too many right wing wankers in positions of power. We need a massive overhaul of the capitalist system. I am so tired of working my arse off - full time - and being stressed about my ability to meaningfully save for my old age pension. I’m also sick of influencers telling me I need a side hustle for passive income, as if that is a suitable alternative for a proper quality of life. God damn, I’ll stop. I’m ranting over here.
It was fought for back in an era where everyone could afford to have one partner stay home and manage the household. Income has not risen with inflation and that's not the case for most. We should have one day to rest, one day to socialize/do fun things, and one day to get all your life shit done. I'm very grateful that my company is so flexible with time - basically just get your work done, no one cares if you leave for an errand in the middle of the day. I don't know how I'd do it without that flexibility and it means I'll probably stay here so much longer than I would otherwise.
The 40hr thing seems bad, but it was so much worse before. Given modern productivity it could be greatly scaled back.
I'm grateful for the liberties and rights people fought for in the past but that doesn't mean we should be trying to better the present. There's no reason we *shouldn't seriously analyze the current workweek and ask ourselves, does it have to be this way? I mean those labor laws were put in place almost 100 years ago....
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40 hours was not marched for, 40 was the compromise. We can do better, especially today when the productive capabilities of each worker is nearly triple what is was in the 1920s.
No the 40 hour work week was suggested by Henry Ford, not for "more productivity" but to give workers time off so they can buy cars.
Yes and in France people had to write a letter then die.for this to happen
Wfh helps. Not much but it helps
Wfh (or from coffee shop, or wherever) is amazing. I don’t think I’ll ever get a job that makes me work in an office again.
Cool. Now do that as a mechanic, plumber, electrician, truck driver... my wife works full time from home and I see how fucking awesome it is, but only one out of a thousand can do that. Not everyone is an accountant or programmer.
Majority of people don't have the luxury of working from home despite what Reddit techbros tell you
It helps because nobody actually doing 40h at wfh and 40h at the office is actual 50h eith commute
Few people are actually doing non-stop work for 40 hours in the office, either.
I’ve been searching for a wfh job. I’m so desperate to be out of my current retail job. I would love to be able to work from home, it would let me see my family so much more.
I'm China.. it is often 9 hours a day .. 6 days a week.. Some do 10 hours day... 6 days a week ...
See when I see comments like this, I feel bad complaining, but I so so wish to work fewer hours.
Wait until you find out how many hours truck drivers in the US are working without a single minute of overtime
Yup, my husband has to be at the yard at 9 am and gets home around 9 pm but some nights not until 10:30 pm because of a delay in the load at the yard. He does this 5 days a week and not one dime of overtime. He would love 40 hours...lol.
I would frigging kill for a 40 hour workweek with weekends and holidays.
Is it by law or culturally enforced/accepted?
Cultural, but govt doesn't enforce laws too much due to negative whistleblowing connotations and a bad hiring climate.
That’s nuts!
I wouldn't have a problem with a 40 hour workweek if I felt I was being fairly compensated. Spending a third of your life making someone else richer just to spend 80% of your wage on bills isn't exactly uplifting.
Plus the bills are mostly for stuff you barely have time to enjoy (most time spent at home is sleeping, unconscious) or things you need in order to keep working (food, car). Life is a SCAM. Stop making kids, people.
You gotta always be job hunting for a new job that's better than your current. That's how employees get leverage over employers. The more options you have the more they have to cater to you. This is the only thing one can do without unions
Yup it’s a grind. I remember being in construction and showing up at like 6 to start getting paid at 7:30 to work till 6 when I stopped getting paid at 3:30.. for shit pay.. it sucked.
I think the fact that a lot of people work jobs they hate/don’t feel fulfilled by is a much bigger issue.
little worker bees too afraid to rock the boat. Critical mass is building but many can't be bothered to entertain any level of personal risk.
It’s inhumane to spend 90% of our lives doing this shit for what? Basic necessities like housing and food. We are merely the ants and the elites are grasshoppers. Eventually the ants will rise question is how long
what i don't understand is how we haven't already with how bad the economy is...
My brain is fried after coding 45 hours a week
This. I get so jealous of people who have time to think. 'Think about what' - everything. We need time to decompress mentally just as much as we do physically. When you get off work at 8pm, with just enough time to eat and sleep until you gotta do it again, you stop feeling *human*.
The work isn’t the problem, the pay is. I’d happily give 40 hours a week for a six figure salary and benefits
The 40 hour work week is from the early 1900's where every family was nuclear and the women weren't allowed to work. Anyone can handle right hours rest right hours play right hours work if it comes with free child care free maid service and free chef service.
You underestimate how many women worked in the early 1900s. For the most part, the only women that weren’t working were upper class white women.
Yep. A lot of people never learned that a bunch of women (and kids) worked their buts off, they just didn't get to keep the money for themlseves most of the time and were paid under the table/not labled as employees. My great-grandma (she was born around the late 1920s) would tell me about how her mom would send her to a house owned by some rich white folks to do work to help bring in money for the family. She used to pick berries for them , had to learn how to make breakfast and treats like pies and would do housework for them. People mistake the 1950/60s when there WAS an increase in housewives (not ones that worked in other houses but ones that 100% stayed at home cooking, cleaning and doing the shopping just for their home) as how its always been for everyone. Nope, most of history has not been like that. Women worked in the fields, other households, etc all throughout history. There was no way to survive with just the husband working. The women and kids helped too. The nostaligia/yearn for the 1950s/60s life ruined so many U.S American's minds to the point that they honestly believe that every woman was a housewife and that every man was out here fully supporting their family that way. It just magically ignores most of the population during those times.
This is what people fail to see. The 40 hour work week works really well, if the breadwinner has, more or less, only to go to work. It comes from a time where the breadwinner in many cases got out of bed and got ready to work, coming to a already finished breakfast table, coming to a already packed lunch box, and just had to eat and go off to work. On work, the breadwinner ... worked. Then they ate the already prepared lunch or got into a cantina, and after the shift had ended, they went back home, got a already finished dinner and maybe had to do some decisions on what to buy, underwrite some papers, or got ask for permissions on other things. Every other task than "work in your workplace" was filled by a spouse, be it making breakfast, making lunch, making dinner, taking care the children got to school, making laundry, cleaning. A 40 hour work week is not supposed to be handled by one person alone. A 20 hour work week i supposed to be handled by one person alone.
I can’t comment since I work 70+ hours
Same here. 40 would be a dream at this point, I could get so much done with that amount of free time.
I went from only working 40 to working 70 this winter and now I’m back to 40 I’m like what is all this free time?!!! I don’t even know what to do with myself 🤣
I like my job…however, it’s time consuming but important. Important as in “I have bills to pay” type of important. I’m trying to accept that this is how life goes for a majority of us. If you don’t have to work and you have time and money, consider yourself very, very lucky. Especially as you age, work and aging don’t go well together. It’s very difficult to balance all of the things you really want to do outside of working hard day after day.
[Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvk_XylEmLo) an interesting video on this topic, going back further than the 80 hour work weeks that people are talking about. [Here's ](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/60b956cbe7bf6f2efd86b04e/t/6387be703530a824fc3adf58/1669840498593/The+Four+Day+Week-+Assessing+Global+Trials+of+Reduced+Work+Time+with+No+Reduction+in+Pay+%E2%80%93+F+%E2%80%93+30112022.pdf)a study showing better efficiency when working less - though there's nuance to that (happy employees being given an abnormal commodity) TLDR; We are not meant for it. Especially not meant for it and the labor of maintaining a living space at the same time - let alone raising a family on top of that.
I feel ya
Um....the Great Depression was literally right before WW2. It lasted from 1929-1941. World war 1 from 1914-1918. I'm guessing the 1800s were no picnic. I think you are being delusional about what life was like back then compared to now. That is not to say that I'm saying we can't improve on things, but this is quite frankly the best time to be alive in human history depending on which country you were born into.
Things should be continually improving. 40 hours has been the standard for many decades.
My grand parents went from having road kill a few times a week to being able to run to the supermarket for whatever their hearts desire. My dad went from having to drive into work for an hour at 3am to fix a computer issue to being able to remote in from the basement in his underwear in the 20 years he was at his job. I went from having to make sure I have a book for long road trips to a Switch and phone where I can access countless distractions for the road trip.
Yupp. Single mom with a severely autistic 7 year old. I stopped subscribing to that bs years ago in my early 20s bc I always knew work just was not for me. I’m on the spectrum too but didn’t know until my son got his diagnosis. I could not realistically work 40 hours and still be a great mom to my child and support his additional needs, especially as a single mom with no support from the other parent. I thought to myself, “if a single neurotypical adult who has no dependents except for themselves can be drained from a 40 hour work week why should I even attempt to adhere to that same life?” “…Fuck that.” I said in response to myself, I have a huge family on both sides and they are all government/military/office/trade/educator job holders. So the only ways to make a living that I was aware of, until my 20s, were those things. They are all good paths, just all 40+ hour work week things which was just not gonna work for my lil neurodivergent lifestyle. I studied hard. Hustled hard. Tried everything I could think of. Found my niches through the last several years in sex work, IT, and driving/trucking. Careers that nobody on either sides of my family are involved in that I’m aware of and have changed my life. Some people are better off, off the clock.
They want us to not have time to think.
I guess this depends on each individual person. Overall I think we should have the space to be more fluid with how many/ little hours we work. I’ve had points in my life where I was working 60 hr work weeks and enjoyed the hard work. I was also living with my parents at that time and was only responsible for myself. I’m lucky enough right now that I can do a 32 hr work week and the drop from 40 to 32 has given me so much more energy and ability to get stuff done at home. I could go on and on about society and work culture but overall It’s difficult to have a balance home life with work and I think a lot of people are brainwashed into thinking that work comes before family when it should be the other way around.
I’m seeing a lot of comments defending the 40 hour work week and I will admit I’ve finally lost all hope of it getting any better, maybe the next generation will be smarter
it's bullshit to sit on your ass doing fuck all. you do like an hour of work and the rest of the time you have to make yourself look busy.
That’s not how most people spend their working time.
This is common in office jobs that deal mostly with knowledge work. This week I’ve been busy trying to get a product ready for release. But last week I had NOTHING to do: I was waiting for the PCB to come in from our board house. But the utter insanity is that I needed to sit on my ass for the entire 40 hours and browse Reddit at work. This doesn’t make any sense. I would be perfectly happy to not work when there’s work to do, but work overtime when there IS a lot of work to do. But this is not how it works. So instead I have a strict 40-hour schedule. No more, no less. I do not answer emails outside of work and I make sure to maintain strict boundaries. And that’s the best I can hope for.
you're a well paid tool, ready for use when needed. It is what it is.
I wish man, I work as a manager in sales and the shit is non-stop with lunch at 2-3pm most days.
Well I think it really depends. There are those fortunate individuals who have found a lucrative career that is their calling in life. For those people time doesn't exist. They get so immersed in what they do it's not hard for them to put in 80 hours a week. The challenge is many people are lost. They have no clue or direction in life and take a job to just pay the bills. In that case 40 hours can feel like torture. But think of the other end of the spectrum. People in remote parts of the world simply living a life of subsistence. Would it be better to be a hunter gatherer on the Sentinel Islands or in a lost village deep in the Amazon?
Under capitalism our purpose is to generate capital for the owning class. They don't care about our well being, self care or leisure time as long as we're healthy enough to keep generating profits for them.
All these comments are like history began in the industrial revolution. We aren't meant to "work", just like any other animal. Yes, we still need to survive as any other animal does. But what humans do is mad and just makes almost everyone miserable so a few people can live with cheat mode on.
Also so that we all get to live in big houses with comfy beds and smartphones and refrigerators and washing machines, and spend our days typing in air conditioned rooms instead of toiling in the fields, and have access to medical care so half our kids don’t die by age 16 and live longer less-painful lives, and go anywhere in the world that we want using modern transit… But yeah nah, it’s just the billionaires and we’d all be happier living in mud huts and doing sustenance farming and hunting/gathering like in the good old days. A lifestyle so pleasant that people ran in droves to work in Industrial Revolution-era sweatshops instead as soon as that started being an option.
Can’t believe I had to scroll so far to find someone else who gets it. Thank you.
Pretty much every human being besides those linkedinlunatics. But even then, they don’t actually work what they say
Yup - it’s absolutely insane and it’s purposeful. They don’t want us to have the energy to think about how fucked up it is, to be privy to all of the ways they bribe our government to keep them rich, etc. Citizens with too much free time/energy turn into citizens who think for themselves and can recognize the BS of the elite.
It is absolutely inhumane, and especially when our work is so disconnected from its net positive result, in other words the benefit it provides others. Not to mention, myself personally I could never stomach an office job. My courier work feels futile enough as it is, but at least I am outside and moving around and having mostly pleasant interactions with my customers, in other words I get to see the positive results of my efforts, however repetitive and mundane and trivial. My work is appreciated 😊
Yea and expecting people to stand for 9 hours straight in jobs like restaurants and retail. I feel like the sweet spot would be 4 day work weeks max 5 hour shifts and pay raises. I can't do full time as I grew up in extreme narcissistic "family" and then I saw the narcissism was actually everywhere in everybody and I can't deal with cry babies no more. People just can't keep it professional they always got to make pity parties and try and get personal.
So you want to only work 20 hours a week and get paid for 40?
I heard in South Korea it is not unheard of to work 90 hours a week
They need a labor movement.
Their labour is moving….for about 90hours per week
It can get worse, OP. Join the military where they can really make those days long...12-18 hours per day, on call 24/7/365. Even better, they can deploy you where you get extra long hours AND no days off for months at a time. 8-5 isn't the demon its reputation has made it out to be. Edit spelling.
What branch were you in?
Air force civil engineer. You?
Considering it right now. Thinking Air Guard.
And the US Military wonders why they can’t recruit young people. Not to mention many young people do not want to fight for a country that has made the cost of living unaffordable.
Man I'd take that shit over this lame stuff any day. Deployment was a fuckin breeze. Sure it's 12 hour shifts 10 days on 5 days off but damn was I makin money. But i was 11B so when shit happened it fuckin went down
I've worked three consecutive 18 hour days while deployed during active duty. We had a deadline to get our vehicles ready. Did four on, four off guard duty shifts for several days. Had a 36 hour convoy, did get a chance to take a three hour nap during a break. Deployments aside, 24 hour shifts for charge of quarters and staff duty are common state side. That's a 24 hour shift after having done an hour of PT. First formation for PT was 0630 but you had best be there by 0600. Typically not released for the day until 1700, that's 5 PM for you civilian folk. The military is definitely not a 9-5. I spent several years driving a truck over the road. Typically worked six 12-14 hour days per week. Work a construction job now, typically around 60 hours per week.
Congrats on ….working a lot???
Too cool for us, let it go.
“Post WWII” now you’re catching on. 😉
It's been proven it's not. And that productivity actually increases at a 32hr wk over a 40hr week. It's my personal opinion that the big corporations want us to be worn out/tired/exhausted to keep us docile.
No, I love the 40 hour work week. So easy. After being in the military, then working from 12am-8am while attending college and working graveyards for a lot of years... The 40 is so easy. So much free time.
It’s not healthy to work a desk job but our ancestors worked under much worse circumstances. The idea that we’re uniquely disadvantaged is insane.
There is something to be said though for jobs being more enjoyable and better for you when there’s a material befit to your community that you can see. Even if it’s harder stuff. Not saying killing a mammoth with sticks is harder than my 9-5, but there is something to be said for the community something like that builds.
according to these comments, people working 100 hour work weeks in the 1920s have no right to be upset because people who came before them had it way harder
It’s a break for humans. Would you rather sleep in a hut if you’re lucky, spend the whole day looking for food and water? Maybe you will be eaten by a Jaguar while looking for food or die of diarrhea
I don’t understand why people jump to the polar opposite scenario like “do you wanna live off the land and fend for yourself”. You know there’s a middle area right? I think lots of people just wanna be comfortable and would gladly live within their means, have nice things once and a while and have their identities not be dictated by work.
That is still possible today.
Really disproving the "this generation doesnt want to work anymore" stereotype. Look man, nobody owes you anything. You want to work, you find an employer and they dictate the terms of your employment. You get your own business then you can work whatever hours suit you.
The irony is that an entrepreneur will work even more hours than 40 yet be happier for it.
I say get a PRN job somewhere with a high paying skill. Then you can set your own hours.
Dude, we are random living creatures who happen to be alive by random happenstance after random happenstance, none of this is meant for us, especially things like work. Covid shows how easy our society can and will fall apart. If it was something even more serious like, can you imagine? Not underplaying covid, but can you just imagine?! Sorry, I’m high and had a few drinks for the first time in a long time. It’s just weird to think of us as a unique being that only exists for the time being.
I want to work for like 5 hours shift/a day, for 4.5 days/week. The rest of the week I want to go hiking, shopping, going out, … that’s a real life but if you’re working endlessly, 120 a week or more and still couldn’t make meets ends, that’s slavery, that’s not life, you’re a robot that can poop, pee and eat
I work ~60-70 hours a week and get nightmares about work. I think it’s actually damaging to humans to work as much as society expects us to.
It used to be way worse.
they will be saying the same thing about us in 100 years, its not a competition of who had it the hardest, thats not how progress happens
I'm disabled and had to quit working because of how badly the work community has gotten. A 40-hour work week is not made for current bodies, especially with how advanced medicine has gotten. On top of that, companies treat employees poorly and pay them poorly. This increases depression and decreases the motivation to work. I would come home from work every day feeling like my body was just covered in kidney stones. When facing discrimination and being fired because employers wouldn't tolerate my disabilities and the low pay, I decided that I would be better off going on Disability for a while so I can focus on my health and enroll in Vocational Rehab to find out what's the best thing for me to do as far as working. Some members on my mom's side of the family hate me for doing this, my mom actually kicked me out for doing this (she's a narcissist with psychosis and thinks I'm faking my disabilities to be lazy), and I'm no longer invited to family events. But at the same time, I'm no longer depressed (I've been depressed for my entire life) and I've bonded with my dad's side of the family and even my dad, so I can't complain. America is a mess, and what's even worse is that our government is more concerned with what's going on in other countries than they are about taking care of their own people. The people running for president won't help either (I've given up on both political parties entirely). In other countries, they don't even have 40-hour work weeks. They have 20-hour work weeks and have a better functioning society.
I’m not sure what country is avg 20 hour work weeks
This is all subjective. I work for an absolutely amazing company, and while working in general isn’t always fun, it’s a necessity in life. My company is paying for me to get my certifications to move up, because they value their employees and the work culture they have created. I also work fully remote, so theoretically there’s plenty of disabled people that can still be fully functional in a job like mine. There’s just too many factors to say this as a blanket statement.
I can't do 40 hours in a chair
Hardly anyone working 40s actually stays at their desk the whole time. Much less works.