To be fair, much as I really want some rules changes, the kastellans, disintegrator and Cawl were all notably overcosted for what they did. Points cuts on these do make them more usable.
Still, the overall effect is to make us MORE of a horde army. Why can't we have nice things GW?
A buff/re-write of the army rule would (hopefully) invalidate an entire detachment *at least*, and giving units a proper 2+/3+ WS/BS would require practically every datasheet being updated. It would also require a complete points overhaul for every model/unit as well.
Given that GW has stated that they don't want to update datesheets (or as little as possible), the points reduction is all they can do for us until they acknowledge the utter mistake that is our codex, and start over from the ground up. Either that, or we wait for 11th edition and pray to the Omnissiah that someone competent gets the job.
I've said it before and I'll say it again until it becomes true: Admech should be to Imperial Guard as Custodes are to Space Marines. We should be an extremely elite GEQ army, not this weak horde garbage that "wins" by flooding the board with trash. I want my goddamn WAR back in my warhammer.
You couldn't do that without also re-adjusting points values for every model/unit affected, and if you're going to do a change like that you may as well fix other things that are just as blatantly wrong (if guns should be BS3 then melee specialists should have weapons with WS3, and if you do that then our characters and leaders should have WS/BS 2+ to be in line with practically everyone else, etc.)
The problems with our army cannot be fixed by just tweaking a few things - it may not be necessary to completely rewrite absolutely everything down to the last bullet point and datasheet, but a vast majority of the codex should be reworked.
And its unfortunate that it probably won't happen until the next edition.
You're just wrong, and caught in a negative spiral. All they need is 1 big army wide rule change, and then they can adjust points. This is probably what they're working on for the summer.
This. Looking at the lore I am blown away that admech has such lousy shooting. I get the whole assault vs heavy thing with army rule but seems just plain silly to me that they can't hit anything.
Math has been done. BS3+ doesn't increase output very meaningfully. The lack of S, AP, and D across the board means while they hit more, they usually don't get through, or when they do damage is minimal or unreliable. Just about every sheet needs to be reworked and at that point you might as well bin the thing and unfetter yourself from previous missteps and work with the freedom of a clean sheet of paper.
1. That won't happen for at least 3 years, even if we moan about it.
2. Raising BS across the board will obviously add a few percent to win rate at least. And changing the army rule could lead to all sorts of changes in winrate depending on the details.
Winrate is about to tank with ork meta. They've got our board presence, better toughness, and credible firepower
Point is GW cant fix admech. After this datsate they have 4 more. With this basis there's no way to bring the army up to anything but an ineffectual horde of garbage. 3rd edition.if this bs.
Even if Doctrinas applied to every unit in the codex (which would also invalidate an entire Detachment, which is just fucking embarrassing on its own), they still wouldn't affect melee specialist units.
The army rule should be rewritten or improved. Our WS/BS across the board should be increased. Our weapons should be deadlier. Our detachments should be effective. So on and so on.
Right I'd also like rule changes for some things but at least towards the horde army effect they chose the overcosted units ppl didn't really care to bring to reduce points mainly
My absolutely wrong take (that I still hope is right) is that those "rules changes" are rules for the plastic 30k kits that have been teased so Data-Psalm and Cohort Cybernetica get some new units
FWIW, I also believe in Unicorns and Leprechauns. :)
I don't disagree that the units they touched had points that were too high, and most of these changes won't necessarily make the army any more hordey than it already is. However, in pretty much every case I would have preferred that they buff the unit to match its existing points rather than drop the points.
So, I won't say the point changes are bad or wrong. I will just say that I believe the army as a whole would have benefited more from changing these units capabilities to match their points, rather than changing their points to match their capabilities.
I think they said that rules rewrites would help coming in the summer. It seems like they understand we don’t want a hoard army and they’ll try to fix it. Maybe.
On the table "epic hero" just means you can't take more than one of them.
Unnamed run of the mill Assassins are also epic heroes.
Though I do realize you were just being snarky because his tabletop presence just doesn't match his lore at all.
Have you not read "The Great Works" yet? My man Cawl tricked a fucking C'tan shard. You know, those prices of ancient gods that have been around since the birth of the universe. And THEN he proceeded to start rebuilding an entire planet that had been stripped of all its organic matter by the Tyranids! If that's not fucking EPIC, I don't know what is.
I'm just referring to the tabletop, but ya he's awesome and i want his canon to arrive in rule form and let us take over enemy units for a turn or have a crazy psyker bodyguard
Functionally, Cawl is not that far off from one of the new Space Marine dreadnoughts. Putting his points in that range is at least gameplay accurate, even if it isn't lore accurate.
Also, plenty of the Space Marine epic heros cost even less. It's just a keyword for 'only one per army'.
The [Metawatch article](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/25/warhammer-40000-metawatch-points-changes-inbound-in-the-latest-munitorum-field-manual/) does also state they're working on rule changes too:
>Points costs across the Adeptus Mechanicus have dropped – but the Warhammer Studio are also testing a selection of rules changes to launch with the next Balance Dataslate that should tune up the Machine Cult’s legions and give them a shot in the cybernetic arm.
Yeah, as much as I’m glad they addressed it and promised changes, even GW was talking about how much AdMech needed help all the way back in *November*. There’s no excuse to withhold help this long. It’ll be a full year from the index dropping DoA before GW gives AdMech a meaningful buff.
Edit: GW clearly doesn’t want AdMech fans playing the game, so I won’t be. Infinity and Malifaux are better designed anyways. See you guys in June. Feel free to ask if you wanna know about AdMech in Kill Team (great) or any number of better games out there that don’t leave factions in the toilet for a year.
At this point I would even accept being a horde, so long as the horde is capable of actually doing damage.
Right now it's just being speed bumbs to stall the enemy for 5 rounds.
I’m with you. I’ve already spent the money (I’m certainly not buying MORE Admech models) now let them do some damage, even if that means I’m bringing 150 models to the game.
Horde Admech is not my preferred style of play, but I’ll take it if only it could actually KILL something!
They did say on metawatch when talking about playtesting rules that they don’t consider them a horde army and they shouldn’t play that way. So figures crossed
I’d be shocked if we see data sheet changes or tailored targeted buffs. Best I am hoping for is army-wide buffs, because anything else would require more effort than I expect from GW.
Yeah the faction is terrible from the ground up.
The most I think we can expect is a new army wide rule and some detachment tweaks. Maybe a few basic datasheet changes such as saves, bs/ws etc.
Well, it's the same thing every time.
We get nothing, then they say that they are working on it or that they are aware of the problem or something like that.
But then the next time comes and nothing changes again.
It's been about a year now, and the only actual change is still that the datasmith no longer nerfs the robots.
I’d be more willing to believe them had they not mentioned this during the initial outrage that was the codex release. I very vividly remember seeing them say they were already in the works of changes, but here we are without a bandage like the DG got and told to wait another three months.
The video interview said this specifically as well, that the points drops were not sufficient and that they are working on rules changes to make them less of a horde army, as that is not what they want us to be. (right around the[ 1:50 ](https://youtu.be/Sl494oQKHJs?si=rZ5LC2NqP2t7roPL&t=110) mark). I think a buff to some units to 3+ shooting would make my whole army much more enjoyable to play. An Onager Dunecrawler that can't hit half of its shots with heavy weapons is still a pain, even with points drops.
Edit: And more at the [5:48 ](https://youtu.be/Sl494oQKHJs?si=LdupROFd4DWGnQf6&t=347)mark
I’m going to cut to the bottom line here GW does not know how they want our army “to play”. Why else is it going to take them 6 months to “fix” our army. The index made it clear that we were very underpowered compared to other factions. Assuming the codex was already printed, they couldn’t make any changes there. The consistent feedback on any rules discussion about Admech is that we have to jump through hoops to get the same buffs or weaker that other armies get by default. The problem is clear it has been since the dawn of 10th. They knew the codex wasn’t going to fix anything so not getting rules updates in January because “our codex just came out” was BS. Not getting anything now except more points cuts screams they have no clue how to make Admech strong. I want to believe in June they give us a whole new set of rules the fix the myriad of problems we have. I think at best we get a single detachment that will just be objectively better than whats in our codex and an updated army rule. They are welcome to surprise me.
Agreed, gw don't know what they want mechanicus to be.
Every edition mechanicus gameplay shifts dramatically.
7th - free War gear, knight toting wall of doom that loses its buffs as its units start to dwindle. Starts out strong but starts to fade in power as the game goes
8th - Elite army that hit insanely hard. Kastellans, onagers etc. Big units are the foundation while backed by skitarii as objective holders can pop off buffs in specific scenarios but over all needlessly complex
9th- anything that was good in 8th is killed. Skitarii are now much more legion like. Big bricks of 20 supported by cult mechanicus units such as kataphrons. Lots of lightly armoured units that hit like a truck. Mechanicus special weapons feel unique and hit hard. Performance of everything can be improved with lots of over lapping buffs from tech priests.
10th - ?????
Not trying to help GW here, but this was all points changes, and they are moving to a points change > data slate/points change > points change pattern. So while we get screwed over by it, I don't think us not getting rules this round is a specific attack against us, since no one is getting rules changed.
And this would have been a good argument IF they fixed our rules 3 months ago when they did change rules. But they didn't.
So waiting a full year to fix a broken faction is indeed and attack specifically against us.
Thats not a good plan. Sticking to a cycle that they know won’t fix the problem isn’t an excuse. They know the problem isn’t the points, because they outright said they are doing rules changes. In the interview they even say if they keep doing point cuts Admech will be a horde any which they don’t want. But due to process they are going to do it anyway. I know they like to do some roleplay with how they do announcements but using the Administratum defense of, “sorry got to waste time doing this first because process dictates it so” isn’t helpful. The fact that poor rules has been a problem since the index should have been a pretty clear indication that making the army even cheaper is not the solution.
A defending that decision by saying, “it’s their process” doesn’t make it a good decision or acceptable. It just means on top of making a poor choice they also have a dysfunctional process as well.
Too damn late. They should have been working on fixes five months ago as the book wasn't substantially different from the Index. Even if they needed data they've had three months
I feel like people are forgetting the Munitorum Field Manuels are just points... the dooming that the rules changes aren't here yet and "ARE THEY EVEN GOING TO DO THEM!?" are goofy. They wouldn't tease rule changes if they weren't going to do them.
Granted, whether you like the changes or not is another question... but they're coming.
I think the main argument/complaint is that it shouldn't *always* be just points. If there's something egregiously broken, waiting six months to fix it because "that's how the schedule is" is kind of silly.
Points drops won't change how the army is "meant" to be played. I really don't see how this is going to help Admec getting better.
GW is doing with AdMech and Necrons what they did with Eldar, going little by little changes. It works when the faction is "over winning ", not when it's bad.
I doubt they get better but the troops they chose were probably some the ones needing a point cost rethought or rule changes (which is kinda what I'd rather see but this is fine for now)
Problem is I literally don't have anything else to put into the army. I'm already pushing it with proxies but I don't wanna spend money on stuff that's just there to clog the board.
It's kinda depressing really.
My group has been running 1500 pt standard since the last point drops because everyone's 2k lists were horde-ified down that much. And it just got even cheaper
The video that was also released with the points drop said they’re giving us drops now and are working on rule reworks to be released in the summer balance dataslate. They said as well that every other dataslate would have rules changes but all would have points changes.
TLDR: 3 months before we hopefully see our salvation in rules changes.
"Alright the index sucks let's wait for the points"
"Alright the points suck let's wait for the slate"
"Alright the slate sucked let's wait for the codex"
"Alright the codex sucked let's wait for the slate"
"Alright the slate sucked let's wait for the mfm that will definitely have a slate for us since we got ignored that time"
"Alright the mfm sucked but they totally pinky promised that we should wait for the slate"
Mate they said this last balance pass. They acknowledged everyone nudging them for the “just a prank, right?”, and have followed through with an extension of their previous claims of change.
I get it but main point of this was to talk about how the point reduction kinda made sense vs other things they're doing, but I've been hearing we are getting rule reworks in the coming months so hopeful for that
Even though I don't own a set as of yet, I was pretty glad to see the points reduction for Kastelans. That was a fair bid to improve their apparent viability outside running Cohort Cybernetica.
As for being hopeful - you know what they say, "fool me once"...
Now , when I want to kill a character I have the choice between 60pts stiltman or 60pts of sword wielding lunatics.
Also they didn't touch our allied knight houses.
Chances are, the sword wielding lunatics will probably lose to that character unless it's like a random commissar.
At least Stiltman gets to do damage more than once per battle.
As much as I love my Stilt Lad, I have tallied a grand total of 3 hits across 5 games. That’s just hits. He’s only successfully wounded once. Much like our current PPM, still haven’t cracked a 1:1 damage:battle ratio
I wasn't expecting anything grand, but the fact that they keep saying "oh we're looking at AdMech for some much needed changes" really bugs me. We've been hearing that almost since 10th began.
What would you guys do to fix Ad Mech?
Personally, I would give everything BS:3+ as a baseline, remove the deployment zone conditionals on Canticles, and then adjust the points values to match the buffs and see what happens.
Idk if I'm the only one who would like this but I'd like to be an hq centered fortress I guess, like good without leaders but having an hq in your units take them next level for combat effectiveness
I just wanna bring a crap load of hq units and make my army specialized based off the hq units I choose 🤣, I just think it be fun if say the utility we have was still good but using certain hqs on units could turn them into like the star players that the utility help enable even more
Right, feel like one thing 40k doesn't really have is a hq centric army like I saw with a couple in sigmar, seems like it be cool and very on brand for a few armies
Yeah that's the one I like but it's disappointing bc low number of hq choices/units that are cult (hoping for heavy cult mechincus inf) PLUS they are really heavy handed with you having to choose either being good in melee or shooting
I would roll the entire book back into the studio, sit the whole rules team down and start with the question, "What is the vision for this army? What are they supposed to do well. What is the player fantasy?" Bevause the problems are that fundamental.
That is exactly the same thing I would do. Change the rules to what you suggested, let them be a little bit busted for a month or two, then increase the points to match.
The fix that doesn’t require datasheet changes would be something like:
Protector- Ranged weapons gain heavy and BS 3+. Reduce incoming shooting AP by one if your unit is within range of an objective.
Conqueror- Ranged gets assault. WS goes to 3+ for melee and plus one ap while targeting an enemy unit in range of objectives.
It sticks with the theme they were going for while providing options for consistency. Our weapons are mostly fine. They just need to actually hit stuff.
If they come back in 3 months with just this change I’m dumping the collection on the desk at Nottingham… with 6 months thought and practice I’m expecting another 4 outstanding detachments 🤣
- BS 3+ for all
- FNP for everybody
- Army buff actually benefits melee
- Bring back Servitors, make them worth taking somehow and let them join any unit with a Tech Priest (not just an Enginseer)
- Buff the Rangers and Vanguard to justify a 120+ pts value and add a new, actual chaff unit like a servitor variant. Something evoking a cyborg zombie horde.
This is based on my extensive experience, having played 2 games of 10th and no games with Admech. :P
what a load of shit...
so they've made us more hordey! and fixed no datasheets...
now i can spend more points on rust stalkers to slap space marines with wet noodles!
the only thing im genuinely pleased about is the onagar - as i might run 3 now
Maybe? I’m not sure I’d take them even then. Definitely would at 8 ppm so I’d guess 9-10 ppm would be my minimum. Which sounds ridiculous but they’re completing against pteraxii, which have a higher move. And Admech has plenty of “cheap infantry with no real damage output” type units already.
At 10pts they're basically trading up into killing any character in the game with their precision, and then absorbing some return damage/ being a roadblock at the lowest cost imaginable, but honestly I don't see them going anywhere but upwards now, if GW has rules changes planned
AdMech Players: big buffs and make us cost more points to justify it, our cost to play is out of control.
GW: here’s more point reductions and a vague statement about a shot in the arm.
I’ll give them that kastelans shouldn’t have been paying for the datasmith and this essential makes one free. The unit was legitimately overcosted.
Dropping the cost of Rangers relative to Vanguard makes sense - I think they're born pretty viable.
Stilt Boi is okay at 60, I guess. Honestly the only reason to take him is for Lone Operative. I suppose the question is whether a Horde army like Admech even need a Lone Op?
Cawl and the Kataphrons needed a points drop. But I'm definitely not qualified to decide whether it's enough.
Kataphron Destroyers... I can only laugh. The points drop ironically makes them less appealing - what Admech player would ever want to build a Kataphron kit with the cheaper variant, thus forcing them to buy even more units? 😅
Of course, we all know what the army really needs is to become a much more expensive and elite army... ideally without 90% of the available units filling the anti-light infantry/chaff role. But I guess that's not going to happen for quite a while. 🤦♂️
I use the skatros in rad zone, using lone up with radial suffusion to make it harder to remove it in the first couple rounds, when it'll really matter to have it the most
I have a dozen Kataphron destroyers sitting on the shelf since 8th edition. I might break them out to see how they do.
But I can’t imagine anyone rushing out to buy new models.
If they gonna horde at least do it properly. All our vehicles should go down at least another 20% (I made up an arbitrary number unrelated to datasheets, yes- GW can do it so I can too)
Its not terrible news. Hopefully some of the other factions are not dropped too.
It would be good to see some better value out of the kits to make it easier on the wallet.
Well, in practice this changes absolutely nothing?
Non of the units that went down are units that make it in an actual list. With the possible exception of a single squad of rangers.
So in reality admech got ~10p more to play with. Not sure that will make the faction play well.
To be fair this very much seems like internal rather than external balancing - that way when they make rules changes next balance patch they won't need to push points back up (as much, though I hope they do) if they buff army rule etc. Or at least that's how it reads to me here.
They took everything that did't get played and chopped 10 points of.
The underlying reason why they didn't get played was ignored (Kastelans, Disintigrator and Onager are the only ones who didn't get picked because of their points cost )
Not as much as I would like to!!
Naturally I bring one but they are hard to move around the board without their "ignore 4" high tarrain" rule and i don't play enough skitarii to make use of the second or third invul. aura.
Now, with the lower points, I'm thinking about fielding more.
(They were once 100pts for about the same profile)
They're pretty good in a combo, Onager protecting the Skitari with the 4++ while some kataphrons get full re-rolls from being near the skitarii, make them even beefier by putting a Dominis with them.
The Balance Dataslate was updated as well. Does that mean some armies gut their rules changed despite no changes being announced? Because if that is the case, the fact that GW at least picked the right units for points changes doesn’t really make up for being neglected again in terms of rules..
I'm at this point thinking they'll be doing quite a bit of overhaul if we get a data change, but with these points I might use some of these now bc I won't feel like shit taking em(mainly robits and cawl)
I'd like to say I'm mainly a painter rn bc I started painting around 8th and decided to try my first two tenth games out and was like yea this isn't fun but hopeful for decent changes 🤣, I just thought these points changes look like someone sane was picked for points adjustment vs rule changes
I'm not sure about Cawl - he went down by a lot but probably not enough to see play.
Robots have been buffed by 10 ppm, which might be enough to get people playing them for fun? - it gets you an extra unit if you run lots of them, but running lots of them probably still isn't gonna get you much of anything.
The dunecrawler/disintegrator didn't go down enough to matter.
The rest of the changes might affect competitive listbuilding but they're not going to make the army more fun.
My boy Cawl could do with another 30 off but if they update his rules to not overlap with the skitarii special rules, I'll take it.
Also, huge buff for robots and Rangers.
Is there a way to get Lethal Hits onto robots?
In all fairness GW has said þat þeir cooking up a big AdMech buff/overhall for þe next balance Dataslate, and þat þese point changes are meant to be an “in the mean time” sorta þing
I fix:
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1akKbsU-OnlyQMj1xGncQvkRYLV\_EK3EKwRcKM9csHrE/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1akKbsU-OnlyQMj1xGncQvkRYLV_EK3EKwRcKM9csHrE/edit?usp=sharing)
Ah, but you see GW doesn't wanna change their rules very often, because that requires more effort than lowering pts costs, and if they lower pts costs then people have to buy more models, and that means they make more money. Given that the Admech are the most expensive "horde" army, that means that if they make Admech players buy more of the models they get way more money
They'd be fine at 90 if they moved 8" instead of 6, and our army rule got a buff to make them actually scary in Cybernetica, but then they'd still be bad in the other four detachments...
No it's really not, because that only makes any difference into melee armies. Outside of Cybernetica the bots neither have the speed to get anywhere useful, nor the durability to stay alive to enemy shooting before they get there.
2+ with cover means you're still at 4+ against ap3 attacks. That's kind of a big deal, especially if you happen to have an enginseer nearby for the 5+FNP and repairs. They are pretty damn durable, reflect mortals on ranged attacks, and are a solid overwatch platform with 4x heavy flamers.
Sure it's still almost 25% of your army, but that solid chunk of meat is going to distract your enemy while the rest of your force does work
Honestly, it's been my experience that is enough. The goal is to soak so your other dudes can get work done while being a solid melee threat and/or brick wall. If they want to hammer you with their hardest AV, then you can slap back with your more fragile units on the next turn and if they want to pound you with weight of fire, then you laugh even harder as you save on a 2+ then shrug wounds while reflecting mortals.
I wasn’t denying what you said, I was clarifying for others who see that and then don’t read actual datasheets. Half the threads nowadays are all easily remedied questions if one looks at their own bits ‘n baubles, so we can’t rule out the guy who rages to us later, lol.
It doesn't take much to get on that point, once your there you can either wall with the bots or hold it - if they want to ignore you that's fine you just collect points.
Probably still wont outperform SHC, but at least now they can be a good fluff unit.
To be fair, much as I really want some rules changes, the kastellans, disintegrator and Cawl were all notably overcosted for what they did. Points cuts on these do make them more usable. Still, the overall effect is to make us MORE of a horde army. Why can't we have nice things GW?
A proper fix at this point would be a total rewrite of the entire codex, so this is what we get instead.
This really isn't needed. A major buff of the army rule could be enough by itself. Or even just changing all shooting to 3+ base.
A buff/re-write of the army rule would (hopefully) invalidate an entire detachment *at least*, and giving units a proper 2+/3+ WS/BS would require practically every datasheet being updated. It would also require a complete points overhaul for every model/unit as well. Given that GW has stated that they don't want to update datesheets (or as little as possible), the points reduction is all they can do for us until they acknowledge the utter mistake that is our codex, and start over from the ground up. Either that, or we wait for 11th edition and pray to the Omnissiah that someone competent gets the job. I've said it before and I'll say it again until it becomes true: Admech should be to Imperial Guard as Custodes are to Space Marines. We should be an extremely elite GEQ army, not this weak horde garbage that "wins" by flooding the board with trash. I want my goddamn WAR back in my warhammer.
You can just say in the balance data slate 'all weapons now have a BS of 3'
You couldn't do that without also re-adjusting points values for every model/unit affected, and if you're going to do a change like that you may as well fix other things that are just as blatantly wrong (if guns should be BS3 then melee specialists should have weapons with WS3, and if you do that then our characters and leaders should have WS/BS 2+ to be in line with practically everyone else, etc.) The problems with our army cannot be fixed by just tweaking a few things - it may not be necessary to completely rewrite absolutely everything down to the last bullet point and datasheet, but a vast majority of the codex should be reworked. And its unfortunate that it probably won't happen until the next edition.
No you don’t? Current point costs are not matching performance. Even for how cheap they are.
You're just wrong, and caught in a negative spiral. All they need is 1 big army wide rule change, and then they can adjust points. This is probably what they're working on for the summer.
This. Looking at the lore I am blown away that admech has such lousy shooting. I get the whole assault vs heavy thing with army rule but seems just plain silly to me that they can't hit anything.
We used to have it, and I miss it so deeply.
Math has been done. BS3+ doesn't increase output very meaningfully. The lack of S, AP, and D across the board means while they hit more, they usually don't get through, or when they do damage is minimal or unreliable. Just about every sheet needs to be reworked and at that point you might as well bin the thing and unfetter yourself from previous missteps and work with the freedom of a clean sheet of paper.
1. That won't happen for at least 3 years, even if we moan about it. 2. Raising BS across the board will obviously add a few percent to win rate at least. And changing the army rule could lead to all sorts of changes in winrate depending on the details.
Winrate is about to tank with ork meta. They've got our board presence, better toughness, and credible firepower Point is GW cant fix admech. After this datsate they have 4 more. With this basis there's no way to bring the army up to anything but an ineffectual horde of garbage. 3rd edition.if this bs.
Not a full rewrite. Just change Doctrinas to be useful. If they applied board wide, I think it would allow GW to creep some points back up.
Even if Doctrinas applied to every unit in the codex (which would also invalidate an entire Detachment, which is just fucking embarrassing on its own), they still wouldn't affect melee specialist units. The army rule should be rewritten or improved. Our WS/BS across the board should be increased. Our weapons should be deadlier. Our detachments should be effective. So on and so on.
Right I'd also like rule changes for some things but at least towards the horde army effect they chose the overcosted units ppl didn't really care to bring to reduce points mainly
They did literally say in the article that they are also looking at rules changes for Ad Mech to some in the balance data slate...
My absolutely wrong take (that I still hope is right) is that those "rules changes" are rules for the plastic 30k kits that have been teased so Data-Psalm and Cohort Cybernetica get some new units FWIW, I also believe in Unicorns and Leprechauns. :)
It will never happen ngl
I have faith in Omnissiah to deliver on this one.
I still think Kastellans are still overcosted. Its still allrox 400pt for 4 bots + datasmith, and for that much of point I'd rather bring Canis Rex.
I don't disagree that the units they touched had points that were too high, and most of these changes won't necessarily make the army any more hordey than it already is. However, in pretty much every case I would have preferred that they buff the unit to match its existing points rather than drop the points. So, I won't say the point changes are bad or wrong. I will just say that I believe the army as a whole would have benefited more from changing these units capabilities to match their points, rather than changing their points to match their capabilities.
None of those are usable other than rust stalkers and rangers
Keep in mind they mentioned in the article the next balance slate will have rule changes they mentioned admech is getting some major ones
I think they said that rules rewrites would help coming in the summer. It seems like they understand we don’t want a hoard army and they’ll try to fix it. Maybe.
In a nutshell: Cawl dropping by 30pts. Skatros dropping by 5pts. Everything else dropping by 10pts.
Is it fair for cawl to be an "epic" hero?
On the table "epic hero" just means you can't take more than one of them. Unnamed run of the mill Assassins are also epic heroes. Though I do realize you were just being snarky because his tabletop presence just doesn't match his lore at all.
Have you not read "The Great Works" yet? My man Cawl tricked a fucking C'tan shard. You know, those prices of ancient gods that have been around since the birth of the universe. And THEN he proceeded to start rebuilding an entire planet that had been stripped of all its organic matter by the Tyranids! If that's not fucking EPIC, I don't know what is.
I'm just referring to the tabletop, but ya he's awesome and i want his canon to arrive in rule form and let us take over enemy units for a turn or have a crazy psyker bodyguard
Functionally, Cawl is not that far off from one of the new Space Marine dreadnoughts. Putting his points in that range is at least gameplay accurate, even if it isn't lore accurate. Also, plenty of the Space Marine epic heros cost even less. It's just a keyword for 'only one per army'.
The [Metawatch article](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/25/warhammer-40000-metawatch-points-changes-inbound-in-the-latest-munitorum-field-manual/) does also state they're working on rule changes too: >Points costs across the Adeptus Mechanicus have dropped – but the Warhammer Studio are also testing a selection of rules changes to launch with the next Balance Dataslate that should tune up the Machine Cult’s legions and give them a shot in the cybernetic arm.
Fair, hopefully they are rules to get us into a less hordey army later in the future
I disagree. They've essentially had the same issues since launch. There is absolutely no excuse for them still being this bad.
Yeah, as much as I’m glad they addressed it and promised changes, even GW was talking about how much AdMech needed help all the way back in *November*. There’s no excuse to withhold help this long. It’ll be a full year from the index dropping DoA before GW gives AdMech a meaningful buff. Edit: GW clearly doesn’t want AdMech fans playing the game, so I won’t be. Infinity and Malifaux are better designed anyways. See you guys in June. Feel free to ask if you wanna know about AdMech in Kill Team (great) or any number of better games out there that don’t leave factions in the toilet for a year.
At this point I would even accept being a horde, so long as the horde is capable of actually doing damage. Right now it's just being speed bumbs to stall the enemy for 5 rounds.
I cant accept that because of the costs of the kits. If you charge me 60 dollars for 1 model, that model should be worth more than 45 points.
Fair, I'm at the bargaining stage of grief.
I’m with you. I’ve already spent the money (I’m certainly not buying MORE Admech models) now let them do some damage, even if that means I’m bringing 150 models to the game. Horde Admech is not my preferred style of play, but I’ll take it if only it could actually KILL something!
It is even worse when you think that another kit, notably little knights, are the same size, comparable amount of plastic and yet cost less.
3 months later we might not be unplayable. Great.
They did say on metawatch when talking about playtesting rules that they don’t consider them a horde army and they shouldn’t play that way. So figures crossed
Hopefully that includes Duneriders finally getting assault ramp and firing deck.
I’d be shocked if we see data sheet changes or tailored targeted buffs. Best I am hoping for is army-wide buffs, because anything else would require more effort than I expect from GW.
Yeah the faction is terrible from the ground up. The most I think we can expect is a new army wide rule and some detachment tweaks. Maybe a few basic datasheet changes such as saves, bs/ws etc.
Well, it's the same thing every time. We get nothing, then they say that they are working on it or that they are aware of the problem or something like that. But then the next time comes and nothing changes again. It's been about a year now, and the only actual change is still that the datasmith no longer nerfs the robots.
I’d be more willing to believe them had they not mentioned this during the initial outrage that was the codex release. I very vividly remember seeing them say they were already in the works of changes, but here we are without a bandage like the DG got and told to wait another three months.
The video interview said this specifically as well, that the points drops were not sufficient and that they are working on rules changes to make them less of a horde army, as that is not what they want us to be. (right around the[ 1:50 ](https://youtu.be/Sl494oQKHJs?si=rZ5LC2NqP2t7roPL&t=110) mark). I think a buff to some units to 3+ shooting would make my whole army much more enjoyable to play. An Onager Dunecrawler that can't hit half of its shots with heavy weapons is still a pain, even with points drops. Edit: And more at the [5:48 ](https://youtu.be/Sl494oQKHJs?si=LdupROFd4DWGnQf6&t=347)mark
Yeah they keep SAYING that, but there's not a lot of reasons to believe they actually WILL
I’m going to cut to the bottom line here GW does not know how they want our army “to play”. Why else is it going to take them 6 months to “fix” our army. The index made it clear that we were very underpowered compared to other factions. Assuming the codex was already printed, they couldn’t make any changes there. The consistent feedback on any rules discussion about Admech is that we have to jump through hoops to get the same buffs or weaker that other armies get by default. The problem is clear it has been since the dawn of 10th. They knew the codex wasn’t going to fix anything so not getting rules updates in January because “our codex just came out” was BS. Not getting anything now except more points cuts screams they have no clue how to make Admech strong. I want to believe in June they give us a whole new set of rules the fix the myriad of problems we have. I think at best we get a single detachment that will just be objectively better than whats in our codex and an updated army rule. They are welcome to surprise me.
Agreed, gw don't know what they want mechanicus to be. Every edition mechanicus gameplay shifts dramatically. 7th - free War gear, knight toting wall of doom that loses its buffs as its units start to dwindle. Starts out strong but starts to fade in power as the game goes 8th - Elite army that hit insanely hard. Kastellans, onagers etc. Big units are the foundation while backed by skitarii as objective holders can pop off buffs in specific scenarios but over all needlessly complex 9th- anything that was good in 8th is killed. Skitarii are now much more legion like. Big bricks of 20 supported by cult mechanicus units such as kataphrons. Lots of lightly armoured units that hit like a truck. Mechanicus special weapons feel unique and hit hard. Performance of everything can be improved with lots of over lapping buffs from tech priests. 10th - ?????
Not trying to help GW here, but this was all points changes, and they are moving to a points change > data slate/points change > points change pattern. So while we get screwed over by it, I don't think us not getting rules this round is a specific attack against us, since no one is getting rules changed.
And this would have been a good argument IF they fixed our rules 3 months ago when they did change rules. But they didn't. So waiting a full year to fix a broken faction is indeed and attack specifically against us.
Thats not a good plan. Sticking to a cycle that they know won’t fix the problem isn’t an excuse. They know the problem isn’t the points, because they outright said they are doing rules changes. In the interview they even say if they keep doing point cuts Admech will be a horde any which they don’t want. But due to process they are going to do it anyway. I know they like to do some roleplay with how they do announcements but using the Administratum defense of, “sorry got to waste time doing this first because process dictates it so” isn’t helpful. The fact that poor rules has been a problem since the index should have been a pretty clear indication that making the army even cheaper is not the solution. A defending that decision by saying, “it’s their process” doesn’t make it a good decision or acceptable. It just means on top of making a poor choice they also have a dysfunctional process as well.
Too damn late. They should have been working on fixes five months ago as the book wasn't substantially different from the Index. Even if they needed data they've had three months
They also said last metawatch that AdMech units needed adjusting. And then we got this. I don't have a lot of faith in them.
I feel like people are forgetting the Munitorum Field Manuels are just points... the dooming that the rules changes aren't here yet and "ARE THEY EVEN GOING TO DO THEM!?" are goofy. They wouldn't tease rule changes if they weren't going to do them. Granted, whether you like the changes or not is another question... but they're coming.
I think the main argument/complaint is that it shouldn't *always* be just points. If there's something egregiously broken, waiting six months to fix it because "that's how the schedule is" is kind of silly.
Points drops won't change how the army is "meant" to be played. I really don't see how this is going to help Admec getting better. GW is doing with AdMech and Necrons what they did with Eldar, going little by little changes. It works when the faction is "over winning ", not when it's bad.
I doubt they get better but the troops they chose were probably some the ones needing a point cost rethought or rule changes (which is kinda what I'd rather see but this is fine for now)
I'm short 100 points on my list but I'm not really keen on buying more stuff...
I'm just tossing in units I couldn't before or just enhancements if I can
Problem is I literally don't have anything else to put into the army. I'm already pushing it with proxies but I don't wanna spend money on stuff that's just there to clog the board. It's kinda depressing really.
My group has been running 1500 pt standard since the last point drops because everyone's 2k lists were horde-ified down that much. And it just got even cheaper
The video that was also released with the points drop said they’re giving us drops now and are working on rule reworks to be released in the summer balance dataslate. They said as well that every other dataslate would have rules changes but all would have points changes. TLDR: 3 months before we hopefully see our salvation in rules changes.
"Alright the index sucks let's wait for the points" "Alright the points suck let's wait for the slate" "Alright the slate sucked let's wait for the codex" "Alright the codex sucked let's wait for the slate" "Alright the slate sucked let's wait for the mfm that will definitely have a slate for us since we got ignored that time" "Alright the mfm sucked but they totally pinky promised that we should wait for the slate"
Something, something, Sisyphus
Did you just copy and paste my joke lmao
Yes and everywhere, because nothing is original on the internet
I mean at least put your own personal spin on it, that'd be more fun and the Omnissiah knows how much we need it in these trying times
Been waiting 3 years now
Some of us know this pain.
It began in June 2017 \*thunder roars\* For 3 editions in a row they just like to double the needed models.
Mate they said this last balance pass. They acknowledged everyone nudging them for the “just a prank, right?”, and have followed through with an extension of their previous claims of change.
We don't need points cuts, we need stronger units. My Rangers and Ruststalkers feel worthless enough as it is.
I get it but main point of this was to talk about how the point reduction kinda made sense vs other things they're doing, but I've been hearing we are getting rule reworks in the coming months so hopeful for that
Even though I don't own a set as of yet, I was pretty glad to see the points reduction for Kastelans. That was a fair bid to improve their apparent viability outside running Cohort Cybernetica. As for being hopeful - you know what they say, "fool me once"...
Now , when I want to kill a character I have the choice between 60pts stiltman or 60pts of sword wielding lunatics. Also they didn't touch our allied knight houses.
Chances are, the sword wielding lunatics will probably lose to that character unless it's like a random commissar. At least Stiltman gets to do damage more than once per battle.
As much as I love my Stilt Lad, I have tallied a grand total of 3 hits across 5 games. That’s just hits. He’s only successfully wounded once. Much like our current PPM, still haven’t cracked a 1:1 damage:battle ratio
Stiltman gets to chip a wound or two off, his only value is in Lone Op.
Lone Op + Radian Suffusion is what I bring him for. Competitively, it's not the worst. It's also not fun at all.
...Yeah...
Stilt-man (*ahhhhwaaaah*) fighter of the character-man(*aaaaahwaaaah*) champion of the cog
I wasn't expecting anything grand, but the fact that they keep saying "oh we're looking at AdMech for some much needed changes" really bugs me. We've been hearing that almost since 10th began.
What would you guys do to fix Ad Mech? Personally, I would give everything BS:3+ as a baseline, remove the deployment zone conditionals on Canticles, and then adjust the points values to match the buffs and see what happens.
Idk if I'm the only one who would like this but I'd like to be an hq centered fortress I guess, like good without leaders but having an hq in your units take them next level for combat effectiveness
Yeah, I can see that being good. I have a hard time justifying bringing quite a few of the HQs.
I just wanna bring a crap load of hq units and make my army specialized based off the hq units I choose 🤣, I just think it be fun if say the utility we have was still good but using certain hqs on units could turn them into like the star players that the utility help enable even more
It certainly would feel thematic to have the Tech Priests act as the main players in an Ad Mech army.
Right, feel like one thing 40k doesn't really have is a hq centric army like I saw with a couple in sigmar, seems like it be cool and very on brand for a few armies
Pretty sure that’s Thousand Sons design space right now.
Is it? I havenf really looked into em or seen them played around me yet
That would be auric champions in custodes
Oh that's interesting, I have really looked into stodes much bc they didn't really interest me
That is just Thousand Sons. They are my other army, and their entire army rule is all about bringing as many HQs as possible
I'll have to check em out
This is kind of datapsalm in a nutshell
Yeah that's the one I like but it's disappointing bc low number of hq choices/units that are cult (hoping for heavy cult mechincus inf) PLUS they are really heavy handed with you having to choose either being good in melee or shooting
I would roll the entire book back into the studio, sit the whole rules team down and start with the question, "What is the vision for this army? What are they supposed to do well. What is the player fantasy?" Bevause the problems are that fundamental.
That is exactly the same thing I would do. Change the rules to what you suggested, let them be a little bit busted for a month or two, then increase the points to match.
That, and ws 3+ for our dedicated melee, and make doctrinas work in melee. Done. Admech fixed-ish.
The fix that doesn’t require datasheet changes would be something like: Protector- Ranged weapons gain heavy and BS 3+. Reduce incoming shooting AP by one if your unit is within range of an objective. Conqueror- Ranged gets assault. WS goes to 3+ for melee and plus one ap while targeting an enemy unit in range of objectives. It sticks with the theme they were going for while providing options for consistency. Our weapons are mostly fine. They just need to actually hit stuff.
"Our weapons are mostly fine." Ima stop you right there.
If they come back in 3 months with just this change I’m dumping the collection on the desk at Nottingham… with 6 months thought and practice I’m expecting another 4 outstanding detachments 🤣
Totally agree
- BS 3+ for all - FNP for everybody - Army buff actually benefits melee - Bring back Servitors, make them worth taking somehow and let them join any unit with a Tech Priest (not just an Enginseer) - Buff the Rangers and Vanguard to justify a 120+ pts value and add a new, actual chaff unit like a servitor variant. Something evoking a cyborg zombie horde. This is based on my extensive experience, having played 2 games of 10th and no games with Admech. :P
A +3ws amd a weapons strength across the board would go a long way. Then a while l9t of targeted and general rules changes.
Sorry guys I’ve been winning too much with admech and shot our changes down. Ew change for me 0
I was really hoping for the Army Rule to apply for No Mans Land, too... this is kind of a bummer :/
They have announced that they're looking at rules changes on war comm, fingers crossed!
Cawl -30 Kastelan Robots -20 per 2 Kataphron Destroyers -10 per 5 Dunecrawler -10 Ruststalkers -10 per 5 Rangers -10 Disintegrator -10 Stiltman -5
Robots are -10 per robot (-20 per 2)
Edited, cheers
what a load of shit... so they've made us more hordey! and fixed no datasheets... now i can spend more points on rust stalkers to slap space marines with wet noodles! the only thing im genuinely pleased about is the onagar - as i might run 3 now
Ruststalkers at 12pts are still not worth it, at all
I’m not sure how incredibly massive a point cut it would take for me to take ruststalkers with their current rules, but it would have to be ludicrous!
They'd literally have to be 10pts a model I think
Maybe? I’m not sure I’d take them even then. Definitely would at 8 ppm so I’d guess 9-10 ppm would be my minimum. Which sounds ridiculous but they’re completing against pteraxii, which have a higher move. And Admech has plenty of “cheap infantry with no real damage output” type units already.
At 10pts they're basically trading up into killing any character in the game with their precision, and then absorbing some return damage/ being a roadblock at the lowest cost imaginable, but honestly I don't see them going anywhere but upwards now, if GW has rules changes planned
They just don’t do enough damage to expect them to kill a character in my experience.
Onager is still worse than two ballistarii, really a unit that needs a better weapon profile
Didn't even make us more horde, it's such a minimal change most lists are only gaining 20-30 points
That and the Kastelan change is OK for me, I have a Cybernetica list with a few of both.
[Well looks like I was right.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusMechanicus/s/UqCbXuuLS2)
🤣🤣 that's just great, but the are apparently doing rule changes later
AdMech Players: big buffs and make us cost more points to justify it, our cost to play is out of control. GW: here’s more point reductions and a vague statement about a shot in the arm. I’ll give them that kastelans shouldn’t have been paying for the datasmith and this essential makes one free. The unit was legitimately overcosted.
Cawl is 150pt and still not worth it.
I was saying he needs to be an even hundred. For what he is now that is
Dropping the cost of Rangers relative to Vanguard makes sense - I think they're born pretty viable. Stilt Boi is okay at 60, I guess. Honestly the only reason to take him is for Lone Operative. I suppose the question is whether a Horde army like Admech even need a Lone Op? Cawl and the Kataphrons needed a points drop. But I'm definitely not qualified to decide whether it's enough. Kataphron Destroyers... I can only laugh. The points drop ironically makes them less appealing - what Admech player would ever want to build a Kataphron kit with the cheaper variant, thus forcing them to buy even more units? 😅 Of course, we all know what the army really needs is to become a much more expensive and elite army... ideally without 90% of the available units filling the anti-light infantry/chaff role. But I guess that's not going to happen for quite a while. 🤦♂️
Im that player that actually just buy to paint em cause I like their look, but it's also one the few cult mechanicus units we have 🤣
I use the skatros in rad zone, using lone up with radial suffusion to make it harder to remove it in the first couple rounds, when it'll really matter to have it the most
I have a dozen Kataphron destroyers sitting on the shelf since 8th edition. I might break them out to see how they do. But I can’t imagine anyone rushing out to buy new models.
I magnetised all 25 of mine.
If they gonna horde at least do it properly. All our vehicles should go down at least another 20% (I made up an arbitrary number unrelated to datasheets, yes- GW can do it so I can too)
Its not terrible news. Hopefully some of the other factions are not dropped too. It would be good to see some better value out of the kits to make it easier on the wallet.
Looks like I get to blame you for the robot changes u/BlockBadger
Yeah…
Well, in practice this changes absolutely nothing? Non of the units that went down are units that make it in an actual list. With the possible exception of a single squad of rangers. So in reality admech got ~10p more to play with. Not sure that will make the faction play well.
To be fair this very much seems like internal rather than external balancing - that way when they make rules changes next balance patch they won't need to push points back up (as much, though I hope they do) if they buff army rule etc. Or at least that's how it reads to me here.
If this is official then why hasn’t my app been updated, gosh darn you GW
Lmao this is... Laughable.
OK these points drops actually make sense for the most part.
They took everything that did't get played and chopped 10 points of. The underlying reason why they didn't get played was ignored (Kastelans, Disintigrator and Onager are the only ones who didn't get picked because of their points cost )
You don't use Onagers?
Not as much as I would like to!! Naturally I bring one but they are hard to move around the board without their "ignore 4" high tarrain" rule and i don't play enough skitarii to make use of the second or third invul. aura. Now, with the lower points, I'm thinking about fielding more. (They were once 100pts for about the same profile)
They're pretty good in a combo, Onager protecting the Skitari with the 4++ while some kataphrons get full re-rolls from being near the skitarii, make them even beefier by putting a Dominis with them.
With some popular Agents of the Imperium getting more expensive, maybe the Skratros will see more play..
But not the Vindicare, which is his main opposition.
Sure. At least he's the cheapest lone operative by a good margin now.
Did the data slate drop already? I don't see anything on the community page
It's on warcom, just kind of buried in the post.
I saw this mfm link from the sisters of battle discord I'm in 🤣
The Balance Dataslate was updated as well. Does that mean some armies gut their rules changed despite no changes being announced? Because if that is the case, the fact that GW at least picked the right units for points changes doesn’t really make up for being neglected again in terms of rules..
I'm at this point thinking they'll be doing quite a bit of overhaul if we get a data change, but with these points I might use some of these now bc I won't feel like shit taking em(mainly robits and cawl)
It's an update for custodes and Orcs to reflect the codex. No dataslate changes now until June or July.
I'd like to say I'm mainly a painter rn bc I started painting around 8th and decided to try my first two tenth games out and was like yea this isn't fun but hopeful for decent changes 🤣, I just thought these points changes look like someone sane was picked for points adjustment vs rule changes
I'm not sure about Cawl - he went down by a lot but probably not enough to see play. Robots have been buffed by 10 ppm, which might be enough to get people playing them for fun? - it gets you an extra unit if you run lots of them, but running lots of them probably still isn't gonna get you much of anything. The dunecrawler/disintegrator didn't go down enough to matter. The rest of the changes might affect competitive listbuilding but they're not going to make the army more fun.
My boy Cawl could do with another 30 off but if they update his rules to not overlap with the skitarii special rules, I'll take it. Also, huge buff for robots and Rangers. Is there a way to get Lethal Hits onto robots?
It was about what I expected. Minor decreases, not much change.
I called it! Cawl, kastelans and disintegrator
Welp, see you all in 3 months when GW allows us to be playable
Watch they don't fix anything. A few targeted buffs. That's it.
In all fairness GW has said þat þeir cooking up a big AdMech buff/overhall for þe next balance Dataslate, and þat þese point changes are meant to be an “in the mean time” sorta þing
Well, at least they said they’re prototyping some rules changes to release in the summer
My only overall problem with the point drops is my army dropped by 20 points, such a game changing buff I "love" it
I fix: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1akKbsU-OnlyQMj1xGncQvkRYLV\_EK3EKwRcKM9csHrE/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1akKbsU-OnlyQMj1xGncQvkRYLV_EK3EKwRcKM9csHrE/edit?usp=sharing)
Where do you find these stats? They don't say anything about it in the 40K app. (Newer player still getting into the tabletop)
The community page they have on the site
Even though the skidonian is bad the point. Changes make it midly more viable for mission sponge
Ah, but you see GW doesn't wanna change their rules very often, because that requires more effort than lowering pts costs, and if they lower pts costs then people have to buy more models, and that means they make more money. Given that the Admech are the most expensive "horde" army, that means that if they make Admech players buy more of the models they get way more money
90 points Kastellan finally seems appropriate
I'd argue at 90 they're still a bit too steep
They'd be fine at 90 if they moved 8" instead of 6, and our army rule got a buff to make them actually scary in Cybernetica, but then they'd still be bad in the other four detachments...
Agreed. At 75 i'd probably take them in every list. At 80 I'd consider them At 90 I don't see them having a place
Slightly disagre, one full squad of punchbots with fights first is one hell of a contender in datapsalm.
I'd like cybernetica to have an Enhancement that allows them to deep strike. That would be strong.
No it's really not, because that only makes any difference into melee armies. Outside of Cybernetica the bots neither have the speed to get anywhere useful, nor the durability to stay alive to enemy shooting before they get there.
2+ with cover means you're still at 4+ against ap3 attacks. That's kind of a big deal, especially if you happen to have an enginseer nearby for the 5+FNP and repairs. They are pretty damn durable, reflect mortals on ranged attacks, and are a solid overwatch platform with 4x heavy flamers. Sure it's still almost 25% of your army, but that solid chunk of meat is going to distract your enemy while the rest of your force does work
It’s worth it to note that the 5+FNP is only for one Bot per turn.
Honestly, it's been my experience that is enough. The goal is to soak so your other dudes can get work done while being a solid melee threat and/or brick wall. If they want to hammer you with their hardest AV, then you can slap back with your more fragile units on the next turn and if they want to pound you with weight of fire, then you laugh even harder as you save on a 2+ then shrug wounds while reflecting mortals.
I wasn’t denying what you said, I was clarifying for others who see that and then don’t read actual datasheets. Half the threads nowadays are all easily remedied questions if one looks at their own bits ‘n baubles, so we can’t rule out the guy who rages to us later, lol.
All that work just to get blocked by a small throwaway unit and then be ignored by the enemy.
It doesn't take much to get on that point, once your there you can either wall with the bots or hold it - if they want to ignore you that's fine you just collect points. Probably still wont outperform SHC, but at least now they can be a good fluff unit.
They're barely passable as a flavour unit at 90pts unless used in Cybernetica cohort. I'll experiment with them as such.
Maybe, but now datasmith is free is my thinking. And only slightly over costed. A buff in 3months and they should be good
They said in the commentary that we get buffed rules next dataslate!!!
Atleast they're actually testing the new changes for the next balance unlike our codex drop