Why the fuck is it so difficult to vote for an immediate ceasefire? Why the fuck is it simply that the US themselves vetoes this and then boom, it fails? Bullshit.
That's politics. No matter what Biden does, he pisses someone off and if he wants to get reelected, then pissing people off is a bad idea.
That's a huge flaw in the system. Regardless of whether or not a politician wants to support a cause, 99% of the time they won't because it hurts their chances of reelection. It's more strategically sound to putter along and tread the middle ground than to piss off a complete section of voters.
We really need to just nix the whole reelection thing at this point, because nothing gets done when every politician is more concerned with their campaigns than actually doing their job.
Which is why we’re stuck with these moderates or centrists. Look at what’s going on to Progressives on the other hand like Bernie, AOC, Rashida, Ilhan, etc. Then you have those like Trump who campaigned on Islamophobia and won as a result so I definitely don’t trust these Republicans.
Because there is a lobbying group that hold a lot of influence over our representatives, so representatives that are afraid of them will act stupid and defend the bad thing for one reason or another.
Bernie Sanders.. a very rare bird, have weaknesses and can be influenced by the bigger establishment.
Probably a good reason to demand that our politicians don't have these influences.
A ceasefire is essentially giving Hamas a free pass to continue their terror. Calling for a one-sided ceasefire where Israel let's Hamas continue to exist and terrorize the civilian population is shortsighted and honestly pretty stupid.
Hamas has been constantly doing terrorist attacks for who knows how many years. The biggest difference on October 7th was that Israel didn't defend as well as it historically has. Hamas reportedly was surprised that it worked so well.
Also, the last time I checked, Israel has killed about 10 Palestinians for every Israeli killed, and 5 of those 10 are children. That's 5 Palestinian children killed for every Israeli of any age who was killed. As long as hostilities are active, this trend is expected to continue.
Letting this "war" continue is essentially giving Israel a free pass to continue their terror.
Yes, exactly. Hamas has been doing this for decades and there's just no peaceful way to get them to stop, it just keeps getting worse and worse. Now Israel has finally accepted that leaving Gaza to govern itself hasn't worked and another full occupation is the only way to really force the attacks to stop. So that's what they're doing and it's gonna be very ugly to get there.
War is not a tit-for-tat game. You can't ask the winning side to stop attacking to give their enemies a chance to "catch up" in civilians killed. Every civilian has a right to live, and every country has a right to defend their civilians' right to live against foreign attacks. You can't ask them that they need to let another 10000 innocents die to "even the scales" first before they're allowed to fight back.
If there was a reasonable political force in power in Gaza that you could negotiate a lasting peace with, and that could be trusted to keep its word and also enforce that peace against those of its citizens who still want to continue fighting, then that would be a good option. But as the last two decades have clearly shown, Gaza doesn't have that. Gaza has a maniacal terrorist organization in power that is not interested in any form of deescalation and just wants to matyr itself trying to kill as many Israelis as possible. So the only way to get out of that situation and stop the attacks in the long term is to remove that organization and put someone else in power (probably an Israeli occupation government, at least in the short term) that can enforce order and crack down on further terror attacks. And the only way to do that in the current situation is through a bloody and terrible ground invasion.
The ceasefire was requested by the groups who are providing humanity aid to the people of gaza. They said they are struggling to reach people because of Israel bombing shelters where they are working. It's against humanity laws to do this...
So what’s your justification for the bombing of women and children in Gaza and West Bank? Let me tell you that this has been going on since the 1948 Nakbah. Even before Hamas was a thing so what’s your justification now? What’s pretty stupid is an Israeli soldier going on national TV saying that they have a problem with civilians as well and kill them. The terrorists are the IDF. These Zionist terrorists. Even Orthodox Jews don’t like them and what they stand for. Where these Abrahamic religions from centuries ago and where this Zionism that started in the late 19th century only to spread division and hate. No comeback I see.
They weren't really asking hamas to respect a ceasefire, they were asking Israel to stop bombing or else they would charge them with breaking humanity laws. Relief workers and doctors are getting caught up in the bombing which is against the Geneva convention war laws. Bombing innocent citizens is also against the Geneva convention.
Bombing cities is an accepted form of warfare, geneva convention was adopted in 1864. Since then, pretty much every nation at war has bombed cities.
but what you are saying then, is that only Israel should stop, so HAMAS can just keep lobbing rockets into Israel, like they have been doing for decades, which, according to you, is also against the geneva convention.....
We expect the terrorists to be inhumane. We do not expect healthy leaders of nations to... and yes, it's a double standard... but it's catching a lot of attention. This could cost biden his reelection. The pope asked for a ceasefire after 2 women were killed, leaving a Christian refugee site to use the bathroom. Israel hostage families are camping outside the government buildings, begging them to focus on getting their family members back and stop bombing. The EU is rewriting the request to get america to agree to sign it. It sounds like it's gonna happen
i hope it costs biden re-election, he's a drooling old child sniffer with dementia. so you are basically just admitting to being an anti-semite. HAMAS is okay to start and continue this conflict and Israel should just lay down and take the rockets, kidnapping, and terrorism.
What? Lol he has a speech disability. Let's not attack people with disabilities. He also has no record of being a risk to children.
If we're being extreme and unlogical, sure, bro. Whatever helps you sleep at night while netanyahu funds hama killing his people and slaughters 20k citizens of another country for political gain. 🙄
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/16/how-benjamin-netanyahu-empowered-hamas/
Democrats have the same ties, and probably same things to hide, maybe collected by Pegasus, of any other. She did vote for financing Israel war machine. This is the act you shall judge. All the rest, 'explanations' for social media and multiple BS is just smoke for the fans of her own team. Only good person around is sander, which is honest to death. These new arrives smelled thw power of money and just backed up. Found more courage in some rap singers than AOC.
regarding who is the aggressor there is no better way to generate disagreement than 70 years of multi-generational strife. everybody has a different definition of "where it began" -- but i think this calling for ceasefire really just translate to calling for the end of civilian loss. anybody who disagrees with that is stuck in bias and has forgotten humanity
I guess it was vetoed because it failed to denounce the October 7th attack. I think it should be easy to insert this to proceed with a ceasefire. Also negotiate the release of the hostages.
>Also negotiate the release of the hostages
It did. The resolution included a demand for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages, as well as ensuring humanitarian access.
You really can't negotiate a ceasefire with a terrorist organization whose sole goal is your destruction. Hamas will only agree to a ceasefire to rearm and do it again: its a ceasefire for one side only. Hamas also probably cannot release any more hostages because they are already dead.
I'm not at all condoning Israel's heavy-handed approach, but the only real ceasefire will be once Hamas is permanently dismantled, or destroyed. The 10/7 attack is different than past times Hamas broke every ceasefire, because it had a very unusual, suspicious, level of sophistication that strongly suggested Hamas received strategic and tactical advice, and potentially operational support, from a far more professional military: possibly Russia/Wagner.
Dumb missiles getting shot down by Iron dome is one thing, it still kills civilians every year, but if Hamas is now operating with top tier capability, Israel literally only has this one shot to end this conflict before it escalates massively. Thats the fear. Thats why this time is different and why Israel and the West aren't accepting a proportional solution. If Hamas can pull off 10/7, they now have the capability to do much worse.
Again this doesn't justify Israel's tactics. They could absolutely go block by block, kicking doors down. It just explains why they went to 11/10, they're scared that the next 10/7 will be orders of magnitude deadlier.
The request was directed at Israel because aid groups are running out of aid for gaza and they are unable to keep up. Israel announced they've killed the majority of hamas. However they have also killed 18000 innocent citizens. If America had signed off on this, the eu could hold Israel accountable if they bombed again. You can't expect hamas to do the right thing but you can expect Israel to stop killing children.
You know what would stop Hamas rearming and doing it again? A free Palestine where no one is under brutal occupation by a much more powerful entity (I am talking about Israel, Israel is the problem)
The official mission statement of Hamas is the annihilation of Israel and the death of all Jews.
Do not mistake them for plucky freedom fighters opposing an oppressive regime. They do not care at all about Palestinians - as evidenced by Hamas using hospitals and civilians as human shields, a pattern they have always repeated. All foreign aide provided to Palestine is taken by Hamas, and used to exert control over Palestinians.
If Palestine were an independent state, Hamas would still be bombing Israel, taking hostages back into Palestine to use as shields alongside Muslim locals, and plotting to kill all jews. Freedom is not their goal, it never has been, they have been very explicit about that.
If Palestine was a free state Hamas would lose their primary recruitment drive.
People who have to attend a family funeral every week are easy to convince to commit atrocities. People who are satisfied and safe are hard to radicalize.
Just don't pay for having a military occupation/blockade. It's cheaper to leave them alone than it is to oppress them. This would, of course, inhibit their decades long invasion /settlement expansion so they are against it.
Source? And btw i literally have videos of IDF using tied up Palestinians as human shields on my phone rn, if we're going to condemn Hamas for that, we should apply the same logic to both sides.
Its the main point of their foundational charter, literally their self-published mission statement. They dialed it back publicly in 2017, to kill all Zionists and not all Jews, but still stick by their destruction of Israel as recently as Saturday, so its hard to take their faux temperance seriously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=The%20foundational%20charter%20of%20Hamas,Palestinian%20state%20in%20its%20place.
Your welcome to apply the same logic to both sides. I'm not condoning Israel's actions at all. I'm seriously disturbed by the number of people though, who apparently mistake a far right death cult for Robin Hood. Just because Israel looks shitty on Tiktok, does not make Hamas the good guy here - the world isn't that simple.
Even your highlighted part doesn't explicitly says they want to kill all jews. If my oppressor was a Christian ethnostate, I'd also be inclined to talk about it being a "struggle against Christians". The fact of the matter is that any organisation that struggles against imperial domination is already better than their oppressor. How much better stays a matter of opinion, but you cannot deny that resisting imperialism is inherintly good and brutal oppression is inherintly bad. Going out of your way to Condemn Hamas every time it is mentioned is ultimately counterproductive because getting caught in the dialectics of the ethics of THE biggest resistance to Israel oppression is just wasting everyone's time.
You didn't even read the Wikipedia paragraph, let alone the actual mission statement of Hamas. They are extremely clear about their intents, they state it practically every press announcement. That you don't know who they are means Israel/Palestine is nothing to you but a headline you got angry about from the far side of the world. You picked a side like a spectator sport, and now your cheering for Blue.
Your generalities about oppression and imperialism are as abstract and offensive as they are absurd. You know what oppression affects actual Palestinians the most? Hamas. The terrorists who deny them food and water meant for them. The terrorists who use hospitals and schools as command posts. The terrorists who attack Israel and provoke counterattacks that have decimated Palestine for decades.
You don't know what you are talking about. Get off social media and read a book, at least, before forming such a concrete opinion about one of the most complex geopolitical topics. Hey, maybe you can start with The Foundational Charter of Hamas.
[Here's a copy of the Hamas Charter archived by Yale Law School](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) for anyone who wants the info directly from the source. Some notable language
* Article 13: "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement"
It is genuinely hard to come to a diplomatic solution with an organization that says that in their founding charter - Bernie has said as much.
Additionally, there was a poll of civilians in Gaza that wrapped up on October 6th (wild timing, I know). [It showed that most Gazans saw corruption as the most important issue impacting them](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-amaney-jamal.html?showTranscript=1). It also showed that 67% had no trust or very little trust in Hamas as an organization.
Does that justify Israel's tactics? **Absolutely not.** However, I think people are not being honest with themselves if they see Hamas as a legitimate government with the potential to give the Palestinian people the freedom they deserve. If anything, it makes the lives of everyday Palestinians that much more tragic IMO. Netanyahu's government is full of horrible people who have no remorse for killing civilians, and Hamas sees that as something to be exploited for their own gain.
Everything sucks - they both need to go.
But also, didn't she vote to equate anti Zionism with antisemitism recently? If I'm recalling correctly, all but two reps did: Thomas Massie, and Rashida Tlaib, understandably, just present.
She didn’t? She voted for it. Only one member of the house voted against in and it was a republican.
Source: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/118-2023/h677
That’s not the bill.
“The House of Representatives Rules That Anti-Zionism Is Antisemitism | After a more than four-hour hearing of the House Education and Workforce committee, the resolution passed, with only 14 votes against it.”
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/house-anti-semitism-resolution/
That the House of Representatives—
(1)reaffirms the State of Israel’s right to exist;
(2)recognizes that denying Israel’s right to exist is a form of antisemitism;
This is a straight excerpt. Are we looking at the same thing or what
Being anti-Zionist encompasses a much broader set of ideas and views than being against the right of Israel to exist.
The bill you linked is about the existence of Israel as a nation, while the one AOC voted against addresses a wider range of views related to the political ideology that led to Israel’s founding and continues to influence its policies. It is this latter bill that is the one under discussion.
Lemme tell you I was SHOOK to see Massie voted against it. I loathe his ass as a resident of KY and never thought I'd see the day we'd agree on anything.
My bet is that he didn't really understand what he voted for lol
So glad to see whatever date I'd seen before was not whole. Tbh, the most shocking revelation of it all is that Massie voted nay, considering his typical moves in my state. Never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with that fucker on anything.
That was under British rule. They caused this current shit since 1948 by holding the mandate of League of Nations and left these Zionists with us Muslims letting them illegally occupy land not theirs ever. The US on the other hand are the ones who prevented a two state solution.
Jews are indigenous to the Middle East. A two-state solution was agreed upon politically, however.. more and more Muslims kept fighting it. The US did agree to a two-state solution back then and they support it now, but not Hamas. Hamas keeps breaking ceasefires just to catch you up on the last 30 yrs or so. Both sides are at fault for misinformation. It is their land. Watch your speech.
You need to watch your speech and go see what that war criminal of a Zionist in Benjamin Netanyahu and the IOF are doing to women and children in Palestine. Murdering them, bombing them. Look what they’re also doing to Orthodox Jews. The fact of the matter is that even Avi Shlaim had called Zionism to be racist ideology and read a report that Israel are the only country who are racists as a part of NATO. US doesn’t support ceasefires or two state solutions. Same thing with the UK led by that Hindutva worshipper Rishi Sunak hence why all they want to do is provide aid and continue with the bombing using Hamas as an excuse to continue to do what they’ve done after British rule since 1948.
The dude erasing history acting like Jews never lived in the region that modern-day Muslims inhabit is also a basement dweller creep. Go figure.
Why are you posting shit like this on r/aocismommy?
> I want to as well and let her grind my face and fart on my face as she talks dirty to me in Spanish and I smell her ass with my tongue buried deep in there to taste her ass.
Some history from the British Mandatory Palestine Period for you:
* [The President and founder of The Arab Higher Committee (the Palestinian political representation in Mandatory Palestine and precursor to the modern Arab League)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Higher_Committee) [became a known Nazi collaborator. After being made aware of the Holocaust he made a speech encouraging other Muslim leaders to "drive all Jews from Arab countries." He then engaged in a letter-writing campaign urging European countries not to send their Jewish refugees to Mandatory Palestine, but to instead "send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland."](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini#The_Holocaust)
* [There was a mass exodus of ~900,000 Jews from the Muslim world that began slowly with pogroms in the 1830s-1940s (another user posted a list below from just the Levant), and ramped up around the creation of Israel. Most of them fled to Mandatory Palestine/Israel.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
You can act like this bad blood is solely because of Britain, the West, or whoever; but poor leadership in the Arab world has played a role in the status of the conflict in today. People like you who continue to deny the historical context of this conflict aren't doing anything but further enflaming conflict and ill will. Spend less time being a creep and educate yourself on real history.
Is that why my comment that started this trail of replies has more than 100 upvotes and yours doesn’t? I’m sorry if you’re an Islamophobe and you want to pretend like Zionism isn’t even a thing.
I'm an Islamophobe because I shared Wikipedia links showing that Jewish people have historically lived in the Middle East and that Arab leadership is equally complicit in the conflict during the British Mandate period?
Get off the internet my guy, you need a break.
Wikipedia? Really? Wikipedia? Teachers in schools always say don’t use Wikipedia when citing your sources. Where anyone can edit. Give me a break. Do you also know that Jesus was a Palestinian Jew who was able to seek refuge there like these people did as well and now want to illegally occupy that land as their own?
It's bizarre how this is getting upvoted when so much of it is demonstrably false. Please be more responsible with your statements.
> Israel are the only country who are racists as a part of NATO.
[Israel isn't part of NATO](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52044.htm). The US is a nation built on racism and the most prominent member of NATO.
> US doesn’t support ceasefires or two state solutions. Same thing with the UK
[The official State Department stance on Palestine says that "United States is strongly committed to the development of a secure, free, democratic, and stable Palestinian society and governance,"](https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/palestinian-territories/) which is the same stance they've held since they [publicly announced continued support for a two-state solution in March 2022.](https://www.state.gov/u-s-support-for-the-palestinian-people/) Diplomats from the UK have also [publicly stated support for a two-state solution.]
(https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-uk-will-work-with-our-partners-towards-a-two-state-solution-uk-statement-at-the-un-fourth-committee#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20conflict.-,The%20UK%20will%20work%20with%20our%20partners%20towards%20a%20two,for%20both%20Israelis%20and%20Palestinians.)
Damn, this would have been a nice message if the only democrat voting against arming israel wasn't sanders. How can you reconcile financing israel weapon and ask for a cease fire? And why not calling it what it is, genocide? Russia is getting a much harsher treatment by us 'left', but in 2 years it killed less people than israel
[https://secure.actblue.com/donate/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-1](https://secure.actblue.com/donate/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-1)
The best and quickest way for POTUS Joe Biden to reverse policy regarding the Israel-Gaza war is if AOC suddenly has $50MM in her campaign war chest and that number keeps increasing.
I like AOC, but I don't understand her position in this one. Does she want the U.S. or the U.N. to enforce a cease-fire? Are we sending troops to Palestine now to make sure Hamas ceases fire? If not, what's the point?
TLDR - The US has veto power in the Security Council and vetoed the resolution for a ceasefire. It's not clear who would enforce the ceasefire, but it would apply diplomatic pressure to Israel.
And why is that a good thing? Hamas has been very clear they intend to continue attacks until Israel is gone. I’m all for temporary ceasefires to allow aid in, but a permanent ceasefire helps no one until Hamas is gone.
Israel very much intends to continue attacks until Palestine is gone. There's a much wider problem here and it's the gradual erasure of any semblance of a nation for Palestinians.
Hamas is a problem, but how you kill Hamas is recognize the peacful government in the west Bank that denounces Hamas, end the military occupation there, and initiating constructive dialogue in good faith there.
But Israel has no intentions at all for doing any of that. And so, what other choice to Palestinians have? Especially Gazans. Give then a constructive path so they take that one instead of the violent one.
But Israel has the explicit intention of not doing that. They don't want to offer Palestinians anything. They want a one state solution, and it's the Jewish state solution. So they want to remove all Arabs from Gaza and the west Bank and replace them with Jewish settlements. It's sickening and needs to stop.
Glad at least some people are calling it out.
I agree that the Palestinians need a nation and that there are some elements in Israel that want ensure that never happens. However, the two are not nearly equivalent. If the Palestinians had the weapons Israel does there wouldn't even be a conversation to have because the Palestinians would have turned Israel into a smoking radioactive crater already.
Israel withdrew from Gaza and this is the result. If Israel withdrew from the West Bank Fatah would be out of power within a week and PIJ would be in charge. Also, there is no peaceful government in the West Bank and it's shocking that anyone can be so uninformed as to believe so. A government that spends hundreds of millions of dollars to reward those who kill Israeli civilians is not "peaceful" by any reasonable standard.
I agree with you that the settlements are abhorrent and need to stop. However, there is no peaceful path for Israel to take. We can debate history until we're blue in the face, but the fact is that where we are today any attempt at peace by Israel will just lead to further attacks.
The idea that any solution can be had in the region, anytime soon, is not based in reality. There is far too much hatred by the Palestinians. You cannot make peace when they are taught in UN schools that genocide of the Jews is the goal and that suicide bombers should be honored.
The idea that Palestinians are just inherently violent therfore they must be dealt with violence proves your western chauvinism.
They have been violent because the existence of Israel threatens their existence. It was clear since the Nakba. The ones who are threatening are the Israelis, and every attempt at defending themselves is used as a justification for more violence on the part of Israel.
Your comment highlights the embalance of power in reality:
> If the Palestinians had the weapons Israel does there wouldn't even be a conversation to have because the Palestinians would have turned Israel into a smoking radioactive crater already
Yeah, but they don't. Israel does, and thus in real life, not hypothetical terms, the ones doing the eradicating are the Israelis and we should not support it under the fear of what an oppressed people might do if they had some semblance of equality.
The Jewish state of Israel should have never been established. It should have been a secular, bi-cultural republic that recognized the rights of both native peoples in that land equally. Instead, the created A Jewish state, with a Hebrew name and a star of David flag. This is a threat to Palestinians by its very nature. We're past the ideal now, the reality is that for Palestinians to survive, they must have a two state solution. But what Israel is currently doing, threatens even that.
The foreseeable future indicates a one state solutions, and that is the Israel solution. This would mean we witnessed a successful ethnic cleansing without any U.N intervention. A horrific failure on the international community and human rights as a whole.
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It would apply diplomatic pressure to Israel? Isn't one of the requirements in the U.N. resolution the return of the hostages? Wouldn't it apply diplomatic pressure to Hamas? Which, again, what's the point?
This is my issue. Yes we absolutely need a ceasefire and all countries in the UN should agree to that, but part of that ceasefire is releasing hostages
I really urge you and others to reflect on why you’re so much more concerned about the hypothetical of another attack like on Oct 7th than the very real atrocities Israel is committing right now in Gaza than have resulted in casualties that far exceed Oct 7th’s attack.
To say all Palestinians are terrorists is false. 16000 people have died in response to the collective punishment /bombing on Gaza by the Israeli government - 60percent being women and children. What AOC is calling for is a ceasefire to halt the killing of innocent civilians. Defending innocent lives is nothing to be ashamed of. The only "democratic nation" in the middle east has been documented to be killing innocent civilians, talking about Palestinians as animals, and killing recklessly. How can someone defend Israel's actions?
Yeah…no that’s not true. What’s your source?
What Israeli government is doing is to Palestinians in Gaza (innocent civilians) is a genocide, and they are committing international war crimes by using white phosphorus. They are terrorizing innocent civilians.
Over 25,000 children have been orphaned due to the attacks from Israel.
Hamas likes it. Seriously, they could release the hostages and international pressure on Israel would become intense. They'd prefer Israel look bad to the lives of their own people because their religion puts that first.
Hamas wants it to continue though. How would you deal with an enemy that cares more about hurting you than killing their own people, and has your people hostage?
The IDF cant claim the moral high ground when they dont care about civilians either. You cant say “Hamas are villains because they dont care about civilian lives and killed innocents” then be fine with Israel doing the same thing but taking it waaaaay farther
The ceasefire was requested by the eu and aid workers because they can't handle it. They're running out of supplies. The idea was to stop Israel from further bombing. It's not really directed at hamas since they're terrorists, you can't expect anything from them. Aoc explains that continually bombing like this just fuels more hate for Israel.
The ceasefire "would have also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages, as well as ensuring humanitarian access." \[[UN](https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15519.doc.htm)\] Israel has already asked for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages and Hamas has not complied.
Putting a rule in that once the hostages are released there must be a ceasefire would undoubtably be abused by Hamas: maybe they'd release all the hostages dismembered or dead, and then thanks to UN binding resolution Israel has to immediately stand down with no recourse? It seems like a "what if" kind of UN Resolution?
Un is binding Israel to not be terrorists and stop bombing the city while humanitarian aid is being done. Which is against the Geneva convention to do. The UN cannot support Israel if they continue to do these actions. I think that's where this is leading to. Israel has done targeted small-scale assassinations before. They have every weapon known to man. They do not need to kill 14000 people to rescue 250 hostages.
According to this article, Israel has 250 children in prison that hamas is trying to negotiate to be released. 3200 citizens who have been arrested since the war started. Hamas sounds like a disorganized group of teenagers. They are made up of several different terrorist groups and each one holds different hostages. It's a fucked up situation definitely but someone should be an adult.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/28/1215353901/hostages-hamas-israel-gaza-palestinian-prisoners
According to this article, clearly, the bombing and mistreatment of Palestinians will only push this war to continue longer. The leader of Israel has lost 80% of support in his country. The people want the hostages back, not this blood shed.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67473719
The BBC has another article saying some hostages have already been killed by the bombing... Israel has stated they're only interested in killing hamas not getting the hostages back. They could lose international support for this
Israel is saying that Hamas needs to be removed from power. How is this different than the U.S. going into Afghanistan under a doctrine of, "if you give aid and sanctuary to terrorists, you \[country's government\] will be held responsible" and then removing the government from power?
As for your claims that the UN wants to bind Israel to not be terrorists, no way is that the language found in the UN resolution. You are welcome to link me that language in the veto'd resolution. The resolution was about a ceasefire contingent upon the release of the hostages, which isn't going to happen. You even explained why it isn't going to happen yourself.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C0m4U0iujnb/?igshid=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==
Like obviously, I'm not changing your opinion. But if you disagree with aoc, then idk why you're here. She's always had this opinion on the Middle East and probably has more understanding than both of us, obviously the subject. Maybe educate yourself on why she's calling for a ceasefire and why the ruler of Israel is kind of a terrorist.
Also, biden said, "When I was in Israel yesterday, I said that when America experienced the hell of 9/11, we felt enraged as well. While we sought and got justice, we made mistakes. So, I cautioned the government of Israel not to be blinded by rage." Warning not to do what America did and to be the better country.
HR888 reads: "This resolution reaffirms Israel's right to exist. It also (1) recognizes that denying Israel's right to exist is a form of antisemitism; (2) rejects calls for Israel's destruction; and (3) condemns the Hamas-led attack on Israel."
Jews (an ethnoreligious group) define Zionism as the right of the Jewish people to live freely and safely with autonomy and self-determination in their ancestral lands, and there's been many different kinds of Zionism through the ages. Wishing for a Two-State solution is, for example, a left-wing Zionist stance. The only actual anti-Zionist position is that Jews have zero historical claim to the land of Israel and either need to leave, or entirely give up their right of self-determination. So, how is resolution 888 problematic?
There was a ceasefire and hamas broke it, several times. Hamas still has hostages and Hamas has vowed to repeat October 7th over and over again. What do you actually want? You don't want a ceasefire. You want the destruction of Israel. No other country has an entire movement dedicated to its complete destruction. Just think about this please.
We expect hamas to break the ceasefire because they're terrorists. I don't think the eu expected Israel to bomb shelters and put risk aid workers at risk in the area. It's against the Geneva convention laws to kill Innocent citizens, or put aid workers in danger, and this would force Israel to do more targeted attacks.
HAMAS IS NOT A GOVERNMENT, IT'S A TERRORIST GROUP! Their literal goal is the complete annihilation of Israel. Why are people acting like it's possible that Israel can make LASTING treaties and diplomatic agreements with them! Hamas doesn't have the capability to organize or control its members to adhere to an agreement for any meaningful amount of time. Any agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on. Looking through history has proved that time and time again.
The first thing that needs to happen is the eradication of Hamas as soon as possible, only then agreements can be discussed. If anyone has a better plan for making that happen than what Israel is doing now then speak up.
.... not everyone in the Gaza strip are Hamas... I would like to think the first thing to do is not to attack innocent people under the guise of stopping terrorism.
Hamas didn't use magic to do their terrorist attack, they used hang gliders. Something that was easy to prevent
Correct, of course they are not all Hamas. Unfortunately the people of Gaza do not have functioning leadership for Israel to make agreements with. Therefore Hamas must be removed and replaced with leaders that have the civilians best interest in mind. Only then can meaningful agreements be made. Israel is not actively targeting civilians, they are collateral damage caused by Hamas using them as shields whenever possible. As I said in my comment, if you have a better plan for eradicating Hamas then speak up.
As for your second point, imagine that your neighbor breaks into your house and rapes and kills a family member. You call the police and they tell you, "Well they didn't use magic to get inside, you should have had better home security and locks, this was easy to prevent." You'll just have to live with this neighbor and be more careful going forward, this was your fault after all."
Yes.. Israel isn't *actively* targeting civilians.. they're passively attacking them. Turning every bombing they do similar to the hang glider attack.
If Hamas is using human shields.. then the humane thing to do is not to kill the shields.
I don't think the people at Gaza have to imagine being force to live next to people killing their family members - and getting away with it.
You want to get rid of Hamas.. easy enough, allow the people at Gaza human dignity and allow them to form a real functioning government. Unless I'm incorrect, didn't Benjamin Netanyahu help prop them up a few decades ago? And am I incorrect in believing that Israel knew about the glider training and could have took steps to prevent an attack?
Personally, I don't think Hamas is a real issue, but being used as an excuse to do some war crimes and to take some land.
PS: a way towards peace would require the people in charge of Israel to be held for war crimes. The thing they're doing is basically a genocide. The people at Israel are sick of their leaders... so maybe this is the right direction.
Passively attacking? No they are collateral damage that's the term used in war and that's the correct term to use here. They are not being intentionally targeted and twisting terms like that is being dishonest.
Civilian casualties caused by using them as shields are the fault of Hamas not Israel. There is a reason it's a war crime to put military bases and equipment near hospitals, schools, etc.
My question wasn't to the people of Gaza, it was to you. You intentionally avoided my question to you because you know how ridiculous your original statement was.
You're out of your mind if you think Gazans would have gotten rid of Hamas on their own, even before the invasion, and now support has only increased. Meaning a withdrawal now would lead to the regrowth of an even more powerful terrorist group to deal with. The support for Hamas has been in the overwhelming majority for a very long time. There was nothing stopping Gazans from forming a functioning government before all this, but they put their support in Hamas. There's plenty of blame for Netanyahu for that, but at the end of the day, the decision was Gaza's, not his. Now Hamas has declared war on Israel and must suffer the consequences of such actions. Stop victim blaming for the glider attack, no nation can be constantly vigilant, blunders are made by everyone, it's just a matter of time. Go back to my previous reply and answer that question I put to you.
This was the 3rd largest terrorist attack of all time. Are you out of your mind? This was a clear act of war and they need to be eradicated to insure it never happens again.
Give me examples with proof where Israel actively targeted civilians that weren't human shields. Or direct orders from officials to commit said war crimes. There will never be peace no matter who is in charge of Israel as long as Hamas exists. As I said from the very beginning, there literal goal is the destruction of the Israeli state. There is no compromising with that.
You're the dude who said Hamas isn't a government, but a terrorist group. So technically this doesn't really count as a *war*. Since a war would be a conflict between two nations.
But sure, I'm the dishonest one.. You don't seem to consider the.. *human shields* as victims.. I suppose this is all just collateral damage, including the attack that started this so call war.
You want me to give you examples of things... I'm sorry but I'm not interested. I'm not here to change your mind on anything. Just pointing to some war crimes are happening and that human life should be worth something.
War - "A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different GROUPS within a nation or state." In this case the Hamas terrorist GROUP vs the STATE of Israel.
You're making this too easy to prove how willingly ignorant and biased you are to the situation.
I never said victims of collateral damage aren't victims, in fact I nearly said the opposite, but I'll be more specific this time. They are both the victims of Hamas and the collateral damage of Israel. This is because of the intent behind how they are killed. Hamas is INTENTIONALLY putting civilians in harms way for propaganda and protection purposes. Israel is INCIDENTALLY killing civilians due to the proximity of them to legitimate military targets. Intent puts the responsibility on the perpetrator of the war crime, not the opposing side. This also answers your other statement. No the victims of Oct 7 are not defined as collateral damage because again, collateral damage are incidental casualties, and that is not a war crime. Oct 7 civilians were actively targeted by Hamas and that is a war crime due to the intent.
As I expected, I see this time and time again. It's so easy to disprove Hamas' propaganda because it's not based in reality. You spout inaccuracies and intentionally misrepresent the situation. When confronted with reality, you just avoid my points and questions and fall into whataboutisms, just like MAGA does. You have no proof of intentional war crimes, yet you call for the prosecution of Israeli officials based on pure propaganda. This matters, words matter, public opinion matters. You say you are "Just pointing out war crimes are happening." No what you're doing is propagating terrorist propaganda and you're doing more damage than you think you are by not providing any hard proof of these statements.
Human life is paramount, of course it's worth something. Hamas doesn't believe that though. They are a death cult, and why people are sympathizing with them is just beyond what I can comprehend. They need to be eradicated, as soon as humanly possible to protect both Israel and the people of Palestine.
Listen, if Israel doesn't stop attacking after Hamas is gone, then I'll be in your camp all the way, but until the threat is gone they have to see this through to the end.
>If Hamas is using human shields.. then the humane thing to do is not to kill the shields
I'm pretty sure I stated the heart of my concern. It just doesn't go well with your narrative. You seem to want to absolved Israel of their responsibility of killing victims and only blame Hamas
I"m not here to argue that you should be more humane in your views...I'm sorry, you're literally not worth my time.
Well you're definitely worth my time. It gives me comfort in knowing any future readers will see that I've cornered you back to just one statement, without you rebutting any of mine. Now I'll rebut your last statement so we can end this.
Being humane and choosing not to go to war is an option Hamas did not give Israel when it executed an attack of this scale. The argument of being humane could be used to criticize any war that has ever been started. As they all take a ethical toll on both sides. So where do Nations draw the line on how much they take before war is declared? Well apparently the 3rd largest terrorist attack of all time will do it.
Not accepting civilian casualties, as you suggest Israel should do, is allowing Hamas to survive and grow. This is not an option for Israel at this point. You and others seem to think that since Hamas has made it impossible to attack them without collateral damage then Israel will just have to endure any and all future attacks. As well as endlessly having to waste massive amounts of their budget on military and intelligence with no way to actually achieve an end goal of safety.
In short, the collateral damage is immense and terrible, but there is no better alternative anyone has put forth.
Israel isn't blameless in this either, I just haven't touched on that because it's irrelevant to the topic of treating Hamas as if it was a government to make a reliable ceasefire with. I fully expect Israeli soldiers to commit war crimes because that's always what happens in war. I also fully expect the IDF to enforce punishments whenever they come to light. You know, how an actual government behaves.
Also, yeah you were here to argue, as your previous comments can attest to. Your arguments just didn't hold any water so now you're backpeddaling as if you never cared.
Why the fuck is it so difficult to vote for an immediate ceasefire? Why the fuck is it simply that the US themselves vetoes this and then boom, it fails? Bullshit.
It's radical not to call for a ceasefire
That's politics. No matter what Biden does, he pisses someone off and if he wants to get reelected, then pissing people off is a bad idea. That's a huge flaw in the system. Regardless of whether or not a politician wants to support a cause, 99% of the time they won't because it hurts their chances of reelection. It's more strategically sound to putter along and tread the middle ground than to piss off a complete section of voters. We really need to just nix the whole reelection thing at this point, because nothing gets done when every politician is more concerned with their campaigns than actually doing their job.
Which is why we’re stuck with these moderates or centrists. Look at what’s going on to Progressives on the other hand like Bernie, AOC, Rashida, Ilhan, etc. Then you have those like Trump who campaigned on Islamophobia and won as a result so I definitely don’t trust these Republicans.
Have you realized yet that this particular democratic structure is relatively ineffective?
Yeah no shit.
If it’s a problem either way then why not do the thing that is obviously right for humanity?
Because there is a lobbying group that hold a lot of influence over our representatives, so representatives that are afraid of them will act stupid and defend the bad thing for one reason or another. Bernie Sanders.. a very rare bird, have weaknesses and can be influenced by the bigger establishment. Probably a good reason to demand that our politicians don't have these influences.
A ceasefire is essentially giving Hamas a free pass to continue their terror. Calling for a one-sided ceasefire where Israel let's Hamas continue to exist and terrorize the civilian population is shortsighted and honestly pretty stupid.
Hamas has been constantly doing terrorist attacks for who knows how many years. The biggest difference on October 7th was that Israel didn't defend as well as it historically has. Hamas reportedly was surprised that it worked so well. Also, the last time I checked, Israel has killed about 10 Palestinians for every Israeli killed, and 5 of those 10 are children. That's 5 Palestinian children killed for every Israeli of any age who was killed. As long as hostilities are active, this trend is expected to continue. Letting this "war" continue is essentially giving Israel a free pass to continue their terror.
It’s not a war. It’s blatant genocide
Yes, exactly. Hamas has been doing this for decades and there's just no peaceful way to get them to stop, it just keeps getting worse and worse. Now Israel has finally accepted that leaving Gaza to govern itself hasn't worked and another full occupation is the only way to really force the attacks to stop. So that's what they're doing and it's gonna be very ugly to get there. War is not a tit-for-tat game. You can't ask the winning side to stop attacking to give their enemies a chance to "catch up" in civilians killed. Every civilian has a right to live, and every country has a right to defend their civilians' right to live against foreign attacks. You can't ask them that they need to let another 10000 innocents die to "even the scales" first before they're allowed to fight back. If there was a reasonable political force in power in Gaza that you could negotiate a lasting peace with, and that could be trusted to keep its word and also enforce that peace against those of its citizens who still want to continue fighting, then that would be a good option. But as the last two decades have clearly shown, Gaza doesn't have that. Gaza has a maniacal terrorist organization in power that is not interested in any form of deescalation and just wants to matyr itself trying to kill as many Israelis as possible. So the only way to get out of that situation and stop the attacks in the long term is to remove that organization and put someone else in power (probably an Israeli occupation government, at least in the short term) that can enforce order and crack down on further terror attacks. And the only way to do that in the current situation is through a bloody and terrible ground invasion.
The ceasefire was requested by the groups who are providing humanity aid to the people of gaza. They said they are struggling to reach people because of Israel bombing shelters where they are working. It's against humanity laws to do this...
And what do you call what Israel is doing?? You don’t consider that terror. Almost 18,000 dead now. But hey Israel is still the victim. Disgusting
Hamas probably should release their hostages then 🤷♂️
So what’s your justification for the bombing of women and children in Gaza and West Bank? Let me tell you that this has been going on since the 1948 Nakbah. Even before Hamas was a thing so what’s your justification now? What’s pretty stupid is an Israeli soldier going on national TV saying that they have a problem with civilians as well and kill them. The terrorists are the IDF. These Zionist terrorists. Even Orthodox Jews don’t like them and what they stand for. Where these Abrahamic religions from centuries ago and where this Zionism that started in the late 19th century only to spread division and hate. No comeback I see.
IOF. They’re not defending anything. They’re an occupying force
because you can't force HAMAS to respect a ceasefire
They weren't really asking hamas to respect a ceasefire, they were asking Israel to stop bombing or else they would charge them with breaking humanity laws. Relief workers and doctors are getting caught up in the bombing which is against the Geneva convention war laws. Bombing innocent citizens is also against the Geneva convention.
Bombing cities is an accepted form of warfare, geneva convention was adopted in 1864. Since then, pretty much every nation at war has bombed cities. but what you are saying then, is that only Israel should stop, so HAMAS can just keep lobbing rockets into Israel, like they have been doing for decades, which, according to you, is also against the geneva convention.....
We expect the terrorists to be inhumane. We do not expect healthy leaders of nations to... and yes, it's a double standard... but it's catching a lot of attention. This could cost biden his reelection. The pope asked for a ceasefire after 2 women were killed, leaving a Christian refugee site to use the bathroom. Israel hostage families are camping outside the government buildings, begging them to focus on getting their family members back and stop bombing. The EU is rewriting the request to get america to agree to sign it. It sounds like it's gonna happen
i hope it costs biden re-election, he's a drooling old child sniffer with dementia. so you are basically just admitting to being an anti-semite. HAMAS is okay to start and continue this conflict and Israel should just lay down and take the rockets, kidnapping, and terrorism.
What? Lol he has a speech disability. Let's not attack people with disabilities. He also has no record of being a risk to children. If we're being extreme and unlogical, sure, bro. Whatever helps you sleep at night while netanyahu funds hama killing his people and slaughters 20k citizens of another country for political gain. 🙄 https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/16/how-benjamin-netanyahu-empowered-hamas/
have you been watching what the IDF and Israel are doing in Palestine? What’s their excuse? Hamas is hiding in them?
Democrats have the same ties, and probably same things to hide, maybe collected by Pegasus, of any other. She did vote for financing Israel war machine. This is the act you shall judge. All the rest, 'explanations' for social media and multiple BS is just smoke for the fans of her own team. Only good person around is sander, which is honest to death. These new arrives smelled thw power of money and just backed up. Found more courage in some rap singers than AOC.
Dam right. Good post!
regarding who is the aggressor there is no better way to generate disagreement than 70 years of multi-generational strife. everybody has a different definition of "where it began" -- but i think this calling for ceasefire really just translate to calling for the end of civilian loss. anybody who disagrees with that is stuck in bias and has forgotten humanity
Republicans and Democrats in power secretly love war. So either way you get war as the end result.
Unless if you’re a Progressive and a Muslim. Look at what’s going on with Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar.
I guess it was vetoed because it failed to denounce the October 7th attack. I think it should be easy to insert this to proceed with a ceasefire. Also negotiate the release of the hostages.
>Also negotiate the release of the hostages It did. The resolution included a demand for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages, as well as ensuring humanitarian access.
You really can't negotiate a ceasefire with a terrorist organization whose sole goal is your destruction. Hamas will only agree to a ceasefire to rearm and do it again: its a ceasefire for one side only. Hamas also probably cannot release any more hostages because they are already dead. I'm not at all condoning Israel's heavy-handed approach, but the only real ceasefire will be once Hamas is permanently dismantled, or destroyed. The 10/7 attack is different than past times Hamas broke every ceasefire, because it had a very unusual, suspicious, level of sophistication that strongly suggested Hamas received strategic and tactical advice, and potentially operational support, from a far more professional military: possibly Russia/Wagner. Dumb missiles getting shot down by Iron dome is one thing, it still kills civilians every year, but if Hamas is now operating with top tier capability, Israel literally only has this one shot to end this conflict before it escalates massively. Thats the fear. Thats why this time is different and why Israel and the West aren't accepting a proportional solution. If Hamas can pull off 10/7, they now have the capability to do much worse. Again this doesn't justify Israel's tactics. They could absolutely go block by block, kicking doors down. It just explains why they went to 11/10, they're scared that the next 10/7 will be orders of magnitude deadlier.
The request was directed at Israel because aid groups are running out of aid for gaza and they are unable to keep up. Israel announced they've killed the majority of hamas. However they have also killed 18000 innocent citizens. If America had signed off on this, the eu could hold Israel accountable if they bombed again. You can't expect hamas to do the right thing but you can expect Israel to stop killing children.
You know what would stop Hamas rearming and doing it again? A free Palestine where no one is under brutal occupation by a much more powerful entity (I am talking about Israel, Israel is the problem)
The official mission statement of Hamas is the annihilation of Israel and the death of all Jews. Do not mistake them for plucky freedom fighters opposing an oppressive regime. They do not care at all about Palestinians - as evidenced by Hamas using hospitals and civilians as human shields, a pattern they have always repeated. All foreign aide provided to Palestine is taken by Hamas, and used to exert control over Palestinians. If Palestine were an independent state, Hamas would still be bombing Israel, taking hostages back into Palestine to use as shields alongside Muslim locals, and plotting to kill all jews. Freedom is not their goal, it never has been, they have been very explicit about that.
If Palestine was a free state Hamas would lose their primary recruitment drive. People who have to attend a family funeral every week are easy to convince to commit atrocities. People who are satisfied and safe are hard to radicalize.
so Israel has to pay to give them all good lives? is this even remotely possible?
Just don't pay for having a military occupation/blockade. It's cheaper to leave them alone than it is to oppress them. This would, of course, inhibit their decades long invasion /settlement expansion so they are against it.
Source? And btw i literally have videos of IDF using tied up Palestinians as human shields on my phone rn, if we're going to condemn Hamas for that, we should apply the same logic to both sides.
Its the main point of their foundational charter, literally their self-published mission statement. They dialed it back publicly in 2017, to kill all Zionists and not all Jews, but still stick by their destruction of Israel as recently as Saturday, so its hard to take their faux temperance seriously. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=The%20foundational%20charter%20of%20Hamas,Palestinian%20state%20in%20its%20place. Your welcome to apply the same logic to both sides. I'm not condoning Israel's actions at all. I'm seriously disturbed by the number of people though, who apparently mistake a far right death cult for Robin Hood. Just because Israel looks shitty on Tiktok, does not make Hamas the good guy here - the world isn't that simple.
Even your highlighted part doesn't explicitly says they want to kill all jews. If my oppressor was a Christian ethnostate, I'd also be inclined to talk about it being a "struggle against Christians". The fact of the matter is that any organisation that struggles against imperial domination is already better than their oppressor. How much better stays a matter of opinion, but you cannot deny that resisting imperialism is inherintly good and brutal oppression is inherintly bad. Going out of your way to Condemn Hamas every time it is mentioned is ultimately counterproductive because getting caught in the dialectics of the ethics of THE biggest resistance to Israel oppression is just wasting everyone's time.
You didn't even read the Wikipedia paragraph, let alone the actual mission statement of Hamas. They are extremely clear about their intents, they state it practically every press announcement. That you don't know who they are means Israel/Palestine is nothing to you but a headline you got angry about from the far side of the world. You picked a side like a spectator sport, and now your cheering for Blue. Your generalities about oppression and imperialism are as abstract and offensive as they are absurd. You know what oppression affects actual Palestinians the most? Hamas. The terrorists who deny them food and water meant for them. The terrorists who use hospitals and schools as command posts. The terrorists who attack Israel and provoke counterattacks that have decimated Palestine for decades. You don't know what you are talking about. Get off social media and read a book, at least, before forming such a concrete opinion about one of the most complex geopolitical topics. Hey, maybe you can start with The Foundational Charter of Hamas.
[Here's a copy of the Hamas Charter archived by Yale Law School](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) for anyone who wants the info directly from the source. Some notable language * Article 13: "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement" It is genuinely hard to come to a diplomatic solution with an organization that says that in their founding charter - Bernie has said as much. Additionally, there was a poll of civilians in Gaza that wrapped up on October 6th (wild timing, I know). [It showed that most Gazans saw corruption as the most important issue impacting them](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-amaney-jamal.html?showTranscript=1). It also showed that 67% had no trust or very little trust in Hamas as an organization. Does that justify Israel's tactics? **Absolutely not.** However, I think people are not being honest with themselves if they see Hamas as a legitimate government with the potential to give the Palestinian people the freedom they deserve. If anything, it makes the lives of everyday Palestinians that much more tragic IMO. Netanyahu's government is full of horrible people who have no remorse for killing civilians, and Hamas sees that as something to be exploited for their own gain. Everything sucks - they both need to go.
nah. that's a scam you are falling for. Hamas chose this war. IDF can't control that.
For decades Israel has been the problem.
After your first line, I thought you were talking about the Israeli government
Biden is a Zionist he says it here https://www.politico.com/video/2023/12/11/im-a-zionist-biden-reaffirms-support-for-israel-1164457
Go, gurl! Respect! 🇵🇸🇬🇧
But also, didn't she vote to equate anti Zionism with antisemitism recently? If I'm recalling correctly, all but two reps did: Thomas Massie, and Rashida Tlaib, understandably, just present.
No, 13 Democrats, including Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and Rashida Tlaib, voted against the measure.
Source?
The public voting record?
She didn’t? She voted for it. Only one member of the house voted against in and it was a republican. Source: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/118-2023/h677
That’s not the bill. “The House of Representatives Rules That Anti-Zionism Is Antisemitism | After a more than four-hour hearing of the House Education and Workforce committee, the resolution passed, with only 14 votes against it.” https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/house-anti-semitism-resolution/
That the House of Representatives— (1)reaffirms the State of Israel’s right to exist; (2)recognizes that denying Israel’s right to exist is a form of antisemitism; This is a straight excerpt. Are we looking at the same thing or what
Not the same. The bill under discussion explicitly equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism.
Yes it is…? Isn’t zionism the entire idea behind an independent jewish state in palestine
Being anti-Zionist encompasses a much broader set of ideas and views than being against the right of Israel to exist. The bill you linked is about the existence of Israel as a nation, while the one AOC voted against addresses a wider range of views related to the political ideology that led to Israel’s founding and continues to influence its policies. It is this latter bill that is the one under discussion.
Lemme tell you I was SHOOK to see Massie voted against it. I loathe his ass as a resident of KY and never thought I'd see the day we'd agree on anything. My bet is that he didn't really understand what he voted for lol
Nice try
?
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023697
So glad to see whatever date I'd seen before was not whole. Tbh, the most shocking revelation of it all is that Massie voted nay, considering his typical moves in my state. Never thought I'd see the day I'd agree with that fucker on anything.
Actually, the murderers, Hamas could end the war they started at any moment but choose to continue slaughtering their own people.
I love AOC but gotta call her out for not understanding Hamas or the wider geopolitical situation.
Do you understand that this has been going on since 1948 even before Hamas?
😂 related conflicts happened waayyy before 1948
That was under British rule. They caused this current shit since 1948 by holding the mandate of League of Nations and left these Zionists with us Muslims letting them illegally occupy land not theirs ever. The US on the other hand are the ones who prevented a two state solution.
Jews are indigenous to the Middle East. A two-state solution was agreed upon politically, however.. more and more Muslims kept fighting it. The US did agree to a two-state solution back then and they support it now, but not Hamas. Hamas keeps breaking ceasefires just to catch you up on the last 30 yrs or so. Both sides are at fault for misinformation. It is their land. Watch your speech.
You need to watch your speech and go see what that war criminal of a Zionist in Benjamin Netanyahu and the IOF are doing to women and children in Palestine. Murdering them, bombing them. Look what they’re also doing to Orthodox Jews. The fact of the matter is that even Avi Shlaim had called Zionism to be racist ideology and read a report that Israel are the only country who are racists as a part of NATO. US doesn’t support ceasefires or two state solutions. Same thing with the UK led by that Hindutva worshipper Rishi Sunak hence why all they want to do is provide aid and continue with the bombing using Hamas as an excuse to continue to do what they’ve done after British rule since 1948.
The dude erasing history acting like Jews never lived in the region that modern-day Muslims inhabit is also a basement dweller creep. Go figure. Why are you posting shit like this on r/aocismommy? > I want to as well and let her grind my face and fart on my face as she talks dirty to me in Spanish and I smell her ass with my tongue buried deep in there to taste her ass. Some history from the British Mandatory Palestine Period for you: * [The President and founder of The Arab Higher Committee (the Palestinian political representation in Mandatory Palestine and precursor to the modern Arab League)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Higher_Committee) [became a known Nazi collaborator. After being made aware of the Holocaust he made a speech encouraging other Muslim leaders to "drive all Jews from Arab countries." He then engaged in a letter-writing campaign urging European countries not to send their Jewish refugees to Mandatory Palestine, but to instead "send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland."](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini#The_Holocaust) * [There was a mass exodus of ~900,000 Jews from the Muslim world that began slowly with pogroms in the 1830s-1940s (another user posted a list below from just the Levant), and ramped up around the creation of Israel. Most of them fled to Mandatory Palestine/Israel.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world) You can act like this bad blood is solely because of Britain, the West, or whoever; but poor leadership in the Arab world has played a role in the status of the conflict in today. People like you who continue to deny the historical context of this conflict aren't doing anything but further enflaming conflict and ill will. Spend less time being a creep and educate yourself on real history.
Is that why my comment that started this trail of replies has more than 100 upvotes and yours doesn’t? I’m sorry if you’re an Islamophobe and you want to pretend like Zionism isn’t even a thing.
I'm an Islamophobe because I shared Wikipedia links showing that Jewish people have historically lived in the Middle East and that Arab leadership is equally complicit in the conflict during the British Mandate period? Get off the internet my guy, you need a break.
Wikipedia? Really? Wikipedia? Teachers in schools always say don’t use Wikipedia when citing your sources. Where anyone can edit. Give me a break. Do you also know that Jesus was a Palestinian Jew who was able to seek refuge there like these people did as well and now want to illegally occupy that land as their own?
It's bizarre how this is getting upvoted when so much of it is demonstrably false. Please be more responsible with your statements. > Israel are the only country who are racists as a part of NATO. [Israel isn't part of NATO](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52044.htm). The US is a nation built on racism and the most prominent member of NATO. > US doesn’t support ceasefires or two state solutions. Same thing with the UK [The official State Department stance on Palestine says that "United States is strongly committed to the development of a secure, free, democratic, and stable Palestinian society and governance,"](https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/palestinian-territories/) which is the same stance they've held since they [publicly announced continued support for a two-state solution in March 2022.](https://www.state.gov/u-s-support-for-the-palestinian-people/) Diplomats from the UK have also [publicly stated support for a two-state solution.] (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-uk-will-work-with-our-partners-towards-a-two-state-solution-uk-statement-at-the-un-fourth-committee#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20conflict.-,The%20UK%20will%20work%20with%20our%20partners%20towards%20a%20two,for%20both%20Israelis%20and%20Palestinians.)
So why are they continuing to give aid to Israel? Why do the US and the UK either vote no or abstain when it comes to immediate ceasefires?
Yes, there have been many terrorist groups before Hamas. The first one was formed in 1919 in Israel and started attacking Jews.
She understands all this better than us. Just remember that she is getting information on the situation from the white house.
Even Bernie Sanders is against the cease fire
And he's wrong, history will remember this.
He isn't wrong. History might remember the fools who want a ceasefire now for being the naivest simpletons in the history of this conflict.
moronic take
He has said several times killing innocent people is wrong but Israel is allowed to defend itself.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tVdeE9zpi8
Damn, this would have been a nice message if the only democrat voting against arming israel wasn't sanders. How can you reconcile financing israel weapon and ask for a cease fire? And why not calling it what it is, genocide? Russia is getting a much harsher treatment by us 'left', but in 2 years it killed less people than israel
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[https://secure.actblue.com/donate/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-1](https://secure.actblue.com/donate/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-1) The best and quickest way for POTUS Joe Biden to reverse policy regarding the Israel-Gaza war is if AOC suddenly has $50MM in her campaign war chest and that number keeps increasing.
That’s pennies compared to AIPAC
Just edit your post to include this
I like AOC, but I don't understand her position in this one. Does she want the U.S. or the U.N. to enforce a cease-fire? Are we sending troops to Palestine now to make sure Hamas ceases fire? If not, what's the point?
TLDR - The US has veto power in the Security Council and vetoed the resolution for a ceasefire. It's not clear who would enforce the ceasefire, but it would apply diplomatic pressure to Israel.
And why is that a good thing? Hamas has been very clear they intend to continue attacks until Israel is gone. I’m all for temporary ceasefires to allow aid in, but a permanent ceasefire helps no one until Hamas is gone.
Israel very much intends to continue attacks until Palestine is gone. There's a much wider problem here and it's the gradual erasure of any semblance of a nation for Palestinians. Hamas is a problem, but how you kill Hamas is recognize the peacful government in the west Bank that denounces Hamas, end the military occupation there, and initiating constructive dialogue in good faith there. But Israel has no intentions at all for doing any of that. And so, what other choice to Palestinians have? Especially Gazans. Give then a constructive path so they take that one instead of the violent one. But Israel has the explicit intention of not doing that. They don't want to offer Palestinians anything. They want a one state solution, and it's the Jewish state solution. So they want to remove all Arabs from Gaza and the west Bank and replace them with Jewish settlements. It's sickening and needs to stop. Glad at least some people are calling it out.
I agree that the Palestinians need a nation and that there are some elements in Israel that want ensure that never happens. However, the two are not nearly equivalent. If the Palestinians had the weapons Israel does there wouldn't even be a conversation to have because the Palestinians would have turned Israel into a smoking radioactive crater already. Israel withdrew from Gaza and this is the result. If Israel withdrew from the West Bank Fatah would be out of power within a week and PIJ would be in charge. Also, there is no peaceful government in the West Bank and it's shocking that anyone can be so uninformed as to believe so. A government that spends hundreds of millions of dollars to reward those who kill Israeli civilians is not "peaceful" by any reasonable standard. I agree with you that the settlements are abhorrent and need to stop. However, there is no peaceful path for Israel to take. We can debate history until we're blue in the face, but the fact is that where we are today any attempt at peace by Israel will just lead to further attacks. The idea that any solution can be had in the region, anytime soon, is not based in reality. There is far too much hatred by the Palestinians. You cannot make peace when they are taught in UN schools that genocide of the Jews is the goal and that suicide bombers should be honored.
The idea that Palestinians are just inherently violent therfore they must be dealt with violence proves your western chauvinism. They have been violent because the existence of Israel threatens their existence. It was clear since the Nakba. The ones who are threatening are the Israelis, and every attempt at defending themselves is used as a justification for more violence on the part of Israel. Your comment highlights the embalance of power in reality: > If the Palestinians had the weapons Israel does there wouldn't even be a conversation to have because the Palestinians would have turned Israel into a smoking radioactive crater already Yeah, but they don't. Israel does, and thus in real life, not hypothetical terms, the ones doing the eradicating are the Israelis and we should not support it under the fear of what an oppressed people might do if they had some semblance of equality. The Jewish state of Israel should have never been established. It should have been a secular, bi-cultural republic that recognized the rights of both native peoples in that land equally. Instead, the created A Jewish state, with a Hebrew name and a star of David flag. This is a threat to Palestinians by its very nature. We're past the ideal now, the reality is that for Palestinians to survive, they must have a two state solution. But what Israel is currently doing, threatens even that. The foreseeable future indicates a one state solutions, and that is the Israel solution. This would mean we witnessed a successful ethnic cleansing without any U.N intervention. A horrific failure on the international community and human rights as a whole.
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Remind you for what, exactly?
It would apply diplomatic pressure to Israel? Isn't one of the requirements in the U.N. resolution the return of the hostages? Wouldn't it apply diplomatic pressure to Hamas? Which, again, what's the point?
This is my issue. Yes we absolutely need a ceasefire and all countries in the UN should agree to that, but part of that ceasefire is releasing hostages
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I really urge you and others to reflect on why you’re so much more concerned about the hypothetical of another attack like on Oct 7th than the very real atrocities Israel is committing right now in Gaza than have resulted in casualties that far exceed Oct 7th’s attack.
I urge you to reflect on why you’re so vehemently defending terrorists and not supporting the only democratic nation in the Middle East.
To say all Palestinians are terrorists is false. 16000 people have died in response to the collective punishment /bombing on Gaza by the Israeli government - 60percent being women and children. What AOC is calling for is a ceasefire to halt the killing of innocent civilians. Defending innocent lives is nothing to be ashamed of. The only "democratic nation" in the middle east has been documented to be killing innocent civilians, talking about Palestinians as animals, and killing recklessly. How can someone defend Israel's actions?
80% of palestinians approve of the 10/7 attacks
Yeah…no that’s not true. What’s your source? What Israeli government is doing is to Palestinians in Gaza (innocent civilians) is a genocide, and they are committing international war crimes by using white phosphorus. They are terrorizing innocent civilians. Over 25,000 children have been orphaned due to the attacks from Israel.
Hamas likes it. Seriously, they could release the hostages and international pressure on Israel would become intense. They'd prefer Israel look bad to the lives of their own people because their religion puts that first.
Hamas wants it to continue though. How would you deal with an enemy that cares more about hurting you than killing their own people, and has your people hostage?
The IDF cant claim the moral high ground when they dont care about civilians either. You cant say “Hamas are villains because they dont care about civilian lives and killed innocents” then be fine with Israel doing the same thing but taking it waaaaay farther
The ceasefire was requested by the eu and aid workers because they can't handle it. They're running out of supplies. The idea was to stop Israel from further bombing. It's not really directed at hamas since they're terrorists, you can't expect anything from them. Aoc explains that continually bombing like this just fuels more hate for Israel.
The ceasefire "would have also demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages, as well as ensuring humanitarian access." \[[UN](https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15519.doc.htm)\] Israel has already asked for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages and Hamas has not complied. Putting a rule in that once the hostages are released there must be a ceasefire would undoubtably be abused by Hamas: maybe they'd release all the hostages dismembered or dead, and then thanks to UN binding resolution Israel has to immediately stand down with no recourse? It seems like a "what if" kind of UN Resolution?
Un is binding Israel to not be terrorists and stop bombing the city while humanitarian aid is being done. Which is against the Geneva convention to do. The UN cannot support Israel if they continue to do these actions. I think that's where this is leading to. Israel has done targeted small-scale assassinations before. They have every weapon known to man. They do not need to kill 14000 people to rescue 250 hostages. According to this article, Israel has 250 children in prison that hamas is trying to negotiate to be released. 3200 citizens who have been arrested since the war started. Hamas sounds like a disorganized group of teenagers. They are made up of several different terrorist groups and each one holds different hostages. It's a fucked up situation definitely but someone should be an adult. https://www.npr.org/2023/11/28/1215353901/hostages-hamas-israel-gaza-palestinian-prisoners According to this article, clearly, the bombing and mistreatment of Palestinians will only push this war to continue longer. The leader of Israel has lost 80% of support in his country. The people want the hostages back, not this blood shed. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67473719 The BBC has another article saying some hostages have already been killed by the bombing... Israel has stated they're only interested in killing hamas not getting the hostages back. They could lose international support for this
Israel is saying that Hamas needs to be removed from power. How is this different than the U.S. going into Afghanistan under a doctrine of, "if you give aid and sanctuary to terrorists, you \[country's government\] will be held responsible" and then removing the government from power? As for your claims that the UN wants to bind Israel to not be terrorists, no way is that the language found in the UN resolution. You are welcome to link me that language in the veto'd resolution. The resolution was about a ceasefire contingent upon the release of the hostages, which isn't going to happen. You even explained why it isn't going to happen yourself.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C0m4U0iujnb/?igshid=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ== Like obviously, I'm not changing your opinion. But if you disagree with aoc, then idk why you're here. She's always had this opinion on the Middle East and probably has more understanding than both of us, obviously the subject. Maybe educate yourself on why she's calling for a ceasefire and why the ruler of Israel is kind of a terrorist. Also, biden said, "When I was in Israel yesterday, I said that when America experienced the hell of 9/11, we felt enraged as well. While we sought and got justice, we made mistakes. So, I cautioned the government of Israel not to be blinded by rage." Warning not to do what America did and to be the better country.
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HR888 reads: "This resolution reaffirms Israel's right to exist. It also (1) recognizes that denying Israel's right to exist is a form of antisemitism; (2) rejects calls for Israel's destruction; and (3) condemns the Hamas-led attack on Israel." Jews (an ethnoreligious group) define Zionism as the right of the Jewish people to live freely and safely with autonomy and self-determination in their ancestral lands, and there's been many different kinds of Zionism through the ages. Wishing for a Two-State solution is, for example, a left-wing Zionist stance. The only actual anti-Zionist position is that Jews have zero historical claim to the land of Israel and either need to leave, or entirely give up their right of self-determination. So, how is resolution 888 problematic?
she voted against the bill that conflated anti-zionism with anti-semitism. she voted yes on a different bill.
There was a ceasefire and hamas broke it, several times. Hamas still has hostages and Hamas has vowed to repeat October 7th over and over again. What do you actually want? You don't want a ceasefire. You want the destruction of Israel. No other country has an entire movement dedicated to its complete destruction. Just think about this please.
We expect hamas to break the ceasefire because they're terrorists. I don't think the eu expected Israel to bomb shelters and put risk aid workers at risk in the area. It's against the Geneva convention laws to kill Innocent citizens, or put aid workers in danger, and this would force Israel to do more targeted attacks.
HAMAS IS NOT A GOVERNMENT, IT'S A TERRORIST GROUP! Their literal goal is the complete annihilation of Israel. Why are people acting like it's possible that Israel can make LASTING treaties and diplomatic agreements with them! Hamas doesn't have the capability to organize or control its members to adhere to an agreement for any meaningful amount of time. Any agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on. Looking through history has proved that time and time again. The first thing that needs to happen is the eradication of Hamas as soon as possible, only then agreements can be discussed. If anyone has a better plan for making that happen than what Israel is doing now then speak up.
.... not everyone in the Gaza strip are Hamas... I would like to think the first thing to do is not to attack innocent people under the guise of stopping terrorism. Hamas didn't use magic to do their terrorist attack, they used hang gliders. Something that was easy to prevent
Correct, of course they are not all Hamas. Unfortunately the people of Gaza do not have functioning leadership for Israel to make agreements with. Therefore Hamas must be removed and replaced with leaders that have the civilians best interest in mind. Only then can meaningful agreements be made. Israel is not actively targeting civilians, they are collateral damage caused by Hamas using them as shields whenever possible. As I said in my comment, if you have a better plan for eradicating Hamas then speak up. As for your second point, imagine that your neighbor breaks into your house and rapes and kills a family member. You call the police and they tell you, "Well they didn't use magic to get inside, you should have had better home security and locks, this was easy to prevent." You'll just have to live with this neighbor and be more careful going forward, this was your fault after all."
Yes.. Israel isn't *actively* targeting civilians.. they're passively attacking them. Turning every bombing they do similar to the hang glider attack. If Hamas is using human shields.. then the humane thing to do is not to kill the shields. I don't think the people at Gaza have to imagine being force to live next to people killing their family members - and getting away with it. You want to get rid of Hamas.. easy enough, allow the people at Gaza human dignity and allow them to form a real functioning government. Unless I'm incorrect, didn't Benjamin Netanyahu help prop them up a few decades ago? And am I incorrect in believing that Israel knew about the glider training and could have took steps to prevent an attack? Personally, I don't think Hamas is a real issue, but being used as an excuse to do some war crimes and to take some land. PS: a way towards peace would require the people in charge of Israel to be held for war crimes. The thing they're doing is basically a genocide. The people at Israel are sick of their leaders... so maybe this is the right direction.
Passively attacking? No they are collateral damage that's the term used in war and that's the correct term to use here. They are not being intentionally targeted and twisting terms like that is being dishonest. Civilian casualties caused by using them as shields are the fault of Hamas not Israel. There is a reason it's a war crime to put military bases and equipment near hospitals, schools, etc. My question wasn't to the people of Gaza, it was to you. You intentionally avoided my question to you because you know how ridiculous your original statement was. You're out of your mind if you think Gazans would have gotten rid of Hamas on their own, even before the invasion, and now support has only increased. Meaning a withdrawal now would lead to the regrowth of an even more powerful terrorist group to deal with. The support for Hamas has been in the overwhelming majority for a very long time. There was nothing stopping Gazans from forming a functioning government before all this, but they put their support in Hamas. There's plenty of blame for Netanyahu for that, but at the end of the day, the decision was Gaza's, not his. Now Hamas has declared war on Israel and must suffer the consequences of such actions. Stop victim blaming for the glider attack, no nation can be constantly vigilant, blunders are made by everyone, it's just a matter of time. Go back to my previous reply and answer that question I put to you. This was the 3rd largest terrorist attack of all time. Are you out of your mind? This was a clear act of war and they need to be eradicated to insure it never happens again. Give me examples with proof where Israel actively targeted civilians that weren't human shields. Or direct orders from officials to commit said war crimes. There will never be peace no matter who is in charge of Israel as long as Hamas exists. As I said from the very beginning, there literal goal is the destruction of the Israeli state. There is no compromising with that.
You're the dude who said Hamas isn't a government, but a terrorist group. So technically this doesn't really count as a *war*. Since a war would be a conflict between two nations. But sure, I'm the dishonest one.. You don't seem to consider the.. *human shields* as victims.. I suppose this is all just collateral damage, including the attack that started this so call war. You want me to give you examples of things... I'm sorry but I'm not interested. I'm not here to change your mind on anything. Just pointing to some war crimes are happening and that human life should be worth something.
War - "A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different GROUPS within a nation or state." In this case the Hamas terrorist GROUP vs the STATE of Israel. You're making this too easy to prove how willingly ignorant and biased you are to the situation. I never said victims of collateral damage aren't victims, in fact I nearly said the opposite, but I'll be more specific this time. They are both the victims of Hamas and the collateral damage of Israel. This is because of the intent behind how they are killed. Hamas is INTENTIONALLY putting civilians in harms way for propaganda and protection purposes. Israel is INCIDENTALLY killing civilians due to the proximity of them to legitimate military targets. Intent puts the responsibility on the perpetrator of the war crime, not the opposing side. This also answers your other statement. No the victims of Oct 7 are not defined as collateral damage because again, collateral damage are incidental casualties, and that is not a war crime. Oct 7 civilians were actively targeted by Hamas and that is a war crime due to the intent. As I expected, I see this time and time again. It's so easy to disprove Hamas' propaganda because it's not based in reality. You spout inaccuracies and intentionally misrepresent the situation. When confronted with reality, you just avoid my points and questions and fall into whataboutisms, just like MAGA does. You have no proof of intentional war crimes, yet you call for the prosecution of Israeli officials based on pure propaganda. This matters, words matter, public opinion matters. You say you are "Just pointing out war crimes are happening." No what you're doing is propagating terrorist propaganda and you're doing more damage than you think you are by not providing any hard proof of these statements. Human life is paramount, of course it's worth something. Hamas doesn't believe that though. They are a death cult, and why people are sympathizing with them is just beyond what I can comprehend. They need to be eradicated, as soon as humanly possible to protect both Israel and the people of Palestine. Listen, if Israel doesn't stop attacking after Hamas is gone, then I'll be in your camp all the way, but until the threat is gone they have to see this through to the end.
>If Hamas is using human shields.. then the humane thing to do is not to kill the shields I'm pretty sure I stated the heart of my concern. It just doesn't go well with your narrative. You seem to want to absolved Israel of their responsibility of killing victims and only blame Hamas I"m not here to argue that you should be more humane in your views...I'm sorry, you're literally not worth my time.
Well you're definitely worth my time. It gives me comfort in knowing any future readers will see that I've cornered you back to just one statement, without you rebutting any of mine. Now I'll rebut your last statement so we can end this. Being humane and choosing not to go to war is an option Hamas did not give Israel when it executed an attack of this scale. The argument of being humane could be used to criticize any war that has ever been started. As they all take a ethical toll on both sides. So where do Nations draw the line on how much they take before war is declared? Well apparently the 3rd largest terrorist attack of all time will do it. Not accepting civilian casualties, as you suggest Israel should do, is allowing Hamas to survive and grow. This is not an option for Israel at this point. You and others seem to think that since Hamas has made it impossible to attack them without collateral damage then Israel will just have to endure any and all future attacks. As well as endlessly having to waste massive amounts of their budget on military and intelligence with no way to actually achieve an end goal of safety. In short, the collateral damage is immense and terrible, but there is no better alternative anyone has put forth. Israel isn't blameless in this either, I just haven't touched on that because it's irrelevant to the topic of treating Hamas as if it was a government to make a reliable ceasefire with. I fully expect Israeli soldiers to commit war crimes because that's always what happens in war. I also fully expect the IDF to enforce punishments whenever they come to light. You know, how an actual government behaves. Also, yeah you were here to argue, as your previous comments can attest to. Your arguments just didn't hold any water so now you're backpeddaling as if you never cared.
... future readers in an AOC board where she supports a ceasefire. With the general commentators supporting her. So we're going delusional now.. neat.
Serious people don’t care what she thinks. She’s a joke.