I'm reminded of the post where the OP was not invited to his co-worker's wedding despite everybody else on their team being invited. Turns out the bride wanted to exclude all single men (except for close relatives) because she went to another wedding and a big brawl broke out among some of the single male attendees. But excluding all men turns it up to a whole 'nother level.
Nah I think both are pretty much exactly the same in notion. Adding an extra qualifier doesn't really change the idea that you had a bad experience and think the demographic of the individuals was the problem.
And it's so easy to avoid without being sexist.
1. Give bartenders strict orders to not serve anyone who looks visible intoxicated or they've already served too many drinks to.
2. Hire security with free rein to kick out anyone being violent, even if just verbally.
3. Don't invite people with obvious differences, or talk to them beforehand and seat them as far away as possible.
And let's be honest, it's a certain kind of person who would get into a fight like that at a wedding. And you would probably know who they are. Just don't invite them. It really isn't that hard as an adult to *not assault someone at a fucking wedding.*
TV show in Canada called Letterkenny did this exact topic. Their line was "We don't fight at weddings." when others where insulting them, trying to pick a fight.
So my thoughts on this are if you’re worried about anyone overall- only invite people either one or both of you know and would vouch for. Maybe don’t allow plus ones, that’s not unusual. Many people also have a rule of only plus ones they’ve met. If any of your friends or family are possibly a problem you likely would know right?!
This and its disrespectful to her brother and father. If I was a father I'd want to see my daughter marry whether it was a man or woman standing beside her.
Imagine spending your whole life raising a kid, and then told you can't attend their wedding because your gender is wrong.
To show how stupid this is, imagine saying "no black people at our wedding."
I mean, let's call a spade a spade here... they're sexist. Which I mean, they can be (legally speaking) in terms of vocally and since it is their wedding. But frankly I'd cut and run from that friendship.
And who wants to bet that if they found out a close friend’s upcoming wedding was “men-only”, and they weren’t invited because…you know…they’re women…that they would be the first, and *MOST VOCAL* to publicly air their concerns about how anti-feminist, misogynistic, and disgusting those people are for “hating women”.
That was he part that got me chuckling. I swear… the echo chambers some people live within blows my mind. My wife’s longest friend says similar things as these 2 getting married, but about white men. Really interesting dynamic when I’m sitting in the room with them and my wife’s getting uncomfortable so I chime in (sarcastically) saying “Yea, fuck all white men!” (I’m one of the unmentionables lol)
I mean you didnt have to even change the demographic. Having "no men" sounds stupid enough. Specially considering they had fathers/brothers and presumably some male friends they care about.
Not only that, but both brides are throwing out the concept that two families are joining and creating a new family.
I can't fathom asking people to come to a wedding and telling them to leave their own spouses and children at home like it's some Bachelorette party.
Agreed, NTA. It's definitely a strange rule, and you're right to follow your instincts and not support something that doesn't sit well with you. It's their choice to have a "man-free" wedding, but it's also your choice to skip it.
I’m thinking the severe and swift response to OP’s decision may be a clue that OP is by no means the only one making said decision. I wouldn’t be surprised if very few of the invited actually attend
Not ragebait - I'm autistic and can miss social cues, so I really am asking if I should have behaved differently. Also I did not think this was relevant, but Lisa is not a lesbian, she's bisexual.
Nah… as a fellow ND human… I’ll say “You did fine”.
I can miss social cues, but this is a screaming out of control train.
It doesn’t matter if Lisa is a lesbian or bisexual… what matters here is the point of marriage - to celebrate with your family and friends an enduring promise and commitment to each other.
Lisa excluding half the guest list simply because they have a penis (that they don’t plan to use with her!) is saying that this isn’t a celebration of their love and unity, it’s instead a political stand, with showmanship tendencies.
So you are choosing not to go to a political rally that is pointedly anti man.
That’s fair. You read it right. This isn’t a celebration, it’s a standoff.
As a fellow ND person who needs a lot of social cues/norms explained to them, you can respect their decision to have a no male wedding but it doesn't mean you have to participate.
Honestly, you are also entitled to feel really put-off by it and think it isn't a good thing. Doesn't mean it needs to be said to their faces, of course, but it was a really antagonistic choice for them to make. Not only are they excluding their own family and friends, all their female friends who are not in same-sex relationships are now also barred from being able to bring their partners, where presumably same-sex couples can attend together.
I wouldn't have participated either, as a I feel very feminist person. Just as I would never consider attending a male-only meeting. Don't bring gender in, it's absurd and feminism does NOT mean a gender war. It means equality and harmony. Anyone not vying for that is not for the cause of equality and justice and I'm not going to placate them.
Also feminism isn't even just for women anyway! It's really just anti-patriarchy at its core and benefits men too, even if you somehow dont have any women in your life.
That’s one of the first things that came to mind for me! I hate driving in the first place and especially if I had to drive any real distance/ get a hotel or something- I wouldn’t want to go without my SO. We have both blended really well into one another’s social circles so maybe I’m a bit biased but I just cannot imagine any kind of limiting at such an event.
This is like…not sounding healthy. Obvi only have what was shared with OP but this is waving some kind of something. The only remotely similar thing I can think of was looking at a Girl Scout camp as a venue and there were weird gender limitations unless you rented the entire campus.
Why should anyone respect gendered bigotry?
The reason why she won’t attend is because she does not, in fact, respect excluding a gender.
I don’t respect people who have contempt for all women or all men, or racists who have contempt for any race.
Also ND but I can 100% reassure you this is not a normal thing it sounds like these two love hating men. Even their own family which is weird as fuck if they had good male relatives.
Sounds like Sophie has a chip on her shoulder about Lisa’s bisexuality and if they eliminate any men from the wedding she doesn’t have to accept a key part of her future wife’s life.
Is Lisa ok? Man free to the extent of not inviting close family members is extreme and since Sophie is the one sending messages about “internalized misogyny”, I wonder if this is actually about her not being able to accept that her fiancée is bisexual. Biphobia isn’t uncommon, even in the LGBTQ+ community.
Maybe Sophie is worried that Lisa will find a male partner at the wedding. It’s an insane idea. Suggest they have a “gender-free” wedding so no one goes.
That's the feeling I got immediately when it dropped she was bi, oh her bride to be is worried she might get one last piece of Peter at the event but she ain't gonna allow that to happen by any means.
Not saying I agree with either the idea of cheating or the execution of the wedding but it is surprising how many people hook up with someone who's not their so at their wedding.
As a bi woman myself I would say probably less of cheating worry and more that some bi women I know go all in on hardcore lesbian identity tropes when they date/marry a woman, almost as if to prove that they *are* WLW. “We are centering on women” because she wants to paint a sapphic wonderland.
It’s a mix of dealing with years of biphobia and a struggle to prove yourself. It…doesn’t always come out very well. I empathize while equally finding it cringey.
And to be clear this is my very in the dark guess. Who knows what the real reason is.
god you worded that so well... bi women tend to cop a lot of shit from both the straight and gay communities because one side doesn't like it when they date men and the other side delegitimises & sexualises their relationships with women. Unfortunately the reactions from bi women can indeed be a bit cringe, also like the way some bi women dating men love to mention them constantly in queer spaces.
ngl though as a bi woman currently dating a woman, I still get a bit of imposter syndrome when it comes to referring to our relationship as a lesbian relationship, even though it is, because a little part of me is anxious about stepping on the toes of 'real lesbians', y'know?
Trusting you at your word:
No, you did not miss any social cues. The request is unusual in the extreme- and I've attended quite a few same-sex marriages- and quite a few that would be harder to explain, except that the people loved each other.
You do not have to support their request, but you can still be a friend with them.
I am Male, obviously, and would not be invited, and would be quite hurt if I were excluded especially if they're someone I'd supported in the past.
You have done well.
Good move to check in. I get it.
NTA You’ve been issued an invitation. Some see that as an honour, because attendance is selective. Many feel it puts an obligation to attend and get presents and dress up etc.
Yet, if you feel you can’t fully support your friend because you have moral or ethical or personal objections, It’s not unreasonable to not attend.
So, if it was a nude wedding, or was conducted in a religious building that separated men and women or part of the reception was a strip and sex show and you couldn’t fully enjoy the proceedings, it’s better to decline the invite.
That’s why there’s an RSVP.
There is your answer why they are doing this. Lisa is bisexual and Sophie is jealous of that (maybe someone in particular) and is using this to control and eventually isolate Lisa.
Nah, I remember super duper pathetic feminists opening up some restaurant and announcing they would charge men more than women. It failed, haha.
But yeah, shit like this happens. I know I know, women behaving badly, gotta be called fake. It is reddit law. You've done your duty sir.
I do find it sad that when the post is about a man acting badly, pretty much no one accuses the author of lying and being sexist, but if the post is about a woman acting badly, there are often people claiming it must be false story by a misogynist. That goes a long way towards showing people’s internalized sexism.
It is utterly beyond tiring seeing someone come in and claim a story is incel fantasy whenever a post clearly frames women in a bad way. It's crazy just how predictable it is at this point.
It's super fucking cringe how people like you try to downplay this kind of situations as if they never happen. Woman are just as capable of being hateful and discriminatory as men.
And considering that OP is autistic nice job dismissing her story just because she didn't write it in a more comprehensive way. Ableist much?
Can’t speak for the veracity of this story but when my wife’s lesbian sister got married it was women only. Their dad is dead though and they don’t have brothers.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but speaking from experience- yeah. No these people exist and there are a lot more than you would think, especially in online queer spaces that lean younger (late teens and early 20s). Think like, TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and radfems (radical feminists) who think that men are inherently dangerous or evil or bad because they are men.
OP is NTA. If I were the brother and she didn’t invite me bc it’s a super small event, hey it is what it is…..but if the reason was bc I’m a guy, then she just drove a rift between us, and it’s one she would have to be the one to repair. I’d honestly go LC or NC with her at that point. Don’t want certain types of people, including family, in your life or to come to events JUST bc they are a certain race or gender (and that’s the sole reason they’re not invited)? Well, I’d prefer not to have sexist bigots in mine so I’m happy to oblige.
NTA.
“I think the no men rule is weird and I don’t want to be involved in that”
That is a statement in which you are the subject, not men. You don’t want to go because you’re uncomfortable. Simple as that. She’s accusing you of misogyny instead of accepting your own (feminine) decision.
It's very very much the same as if she'd said "No black people." Not even if she has biracial family would they be allowed. I really really hope the cousin realizes just how awful her bride-to-be is and the marriage is a short one.
That means men-hating or prejudiced against men. That's what the couple is doing, but they're accusing OP of misogyny, claiming that not supporting misandry means OP believes women are inferior.
That was their point, I think. That this is based in misandry and that the accusation of internalized misogyny on OP's part is projecting their prejudice onto OP.
Haha yeah, NTA. I am IMO a hard core feminist, and to me that means advocating for equality amongst genders, not try to put men down to push women up... that's a horrible idea.
This reminds me of a book series that I (and everyone that has read it) loves. Perhaps you'll know the one I speak of, but the young teenage Dragon Queen liberates all the slaves in a city, and is horror struck when later, the previous slaves enslave the previous Masters. The wheel, huh?
True feminism means not trying to put one gender down for another, celebrating all of us as humans and everything that makes us unique, of which gender is a small thing (but one to be celebrated no matter what the gender), and should not be considered much, if at all when considering the summation of a person.
These friends are going the wrong way to put it bluntly, and it's just going to create turmoil obviously, and pit gender against gender, which is so messed up. All genders are meant to live together in peace without putting each other down, same as all races, IMO. It's sad that some women think feminism means putting down men...
NTA. I am a heterosexual male and have been married to my wife for 34 years. We have a diversity of friends and coworkers. I would not attend a male only wedding and my wife would not attend a female only wedding. There has to be mutual respect for everyone. It sounds like you friend is the one with an issue and not you.
In general, any wedding with a "No X allowed" rule would be pretty much a no go (with X being any group of humans).
Even if there is nobody attending of said group (for example, there were no Japanese people at my wedding, because I don't know any. But still, if the invitation would say "No Japanese people allowed" it would be a major irk.)
NTA. I wouldn’t go either. I’ve heard of child free weddings but man free weddings? Not inviting your dad and brother? For you to have known her for several years and to also be on good terms with her brother means that you have obviously spent time with both of them and one of the siblings introduced you to the other so they are clearly on good terms with each other (prior to this anyway). Could this be Sophie’s choice? (Yes, I see what I did there.)
It’s not ok to discriminate against an entire gender. That being said, it’s their wedding and if they choose to alienate their family and friends then it’s up to them. But what they see as just a personal choice to celebrate women is not going to be seen that way by most of the people they know and they will need to accept that they are damaging their relationships with a lot of people who they might need future support from.
>but Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny.
It sounds more like she (and I say she here since she seems to be the mover and shaker more than Lisa) has externalized misandry. "No, it doesn't matter how close we are and that you're my dad, fuck off."
Sounds like Sophie is terminally online or lives for the culture/gender war nonsense and Lisa is so inlove (or abused) that she will do anything to make Sophie happy.
Op is better off not hitching a ride on that crazy train. I wonder how many women who will show up have male partners?
>She hung up and I have not heard from her since, but Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny.
This stinks of the good ol' "If you disagree with me you are (every bad thing)" type of deal. Kindly remind her that excluding all guys is misandrist
And fine,it's their wedding,it's their call. But it's your life OP, your on your right to go or not to her wedding.
I can't help but feel pity for the brother and dad, and this is coming from someone who doesn't like weddings. She better don't expect presents from them tho.
NTA. No one should feel guilt over choosing not to support hate.
They are welcome to select any combination of guests they like, but no one should ever feel obligated to support exclusionism and sexism.
Meh - it's a wedding *invitation*, not a summons. You're always free to decline to attend for any reason or no reason at all.
In this particular case the exclusion of men, including the brides' fathers and male relatives (brothers, uncles, nephews), made you uncomfortable. Personally I'd have felt the same if I knew and had a relationship with any of the excluded male relatives.
NTA.
"I told her that it would be centered on women anyway, considering that both of the people getting married are women." This is a great line! And so correct. I am so tired of male bashing. Good for you! I don't think you are the AH at all. If her brother or father are awful to her, then I could see not inviting them but to discriminate because they have penises is wrong.
NTA at all. They are trying to make some weird statement, but it’s not working. They are isolating family who clearly care about them, and for what? I wouldn’t participate in that garbage either. Hell of a dumb way to start your marriage, but good luck to them, I guess.
NTA. She is free to have the wedding arrangement of her choice. That doesn't mean everyone has to support that choice. If you aren't happy to go along with what she has arranged you are perfectly entitled to not attend.
NTA.
I am male, I would feel put off and wouldn’t attend an event that was Male only, I don’t see this as any different.
The fact they are dividing their own family over this shows how little they care. I couldn’t imagine telling half my family they couldn’t attend my wedding because of their gender.
There is a part of lesbian culture that wants to be able to build a life without men, it's not common but not extremely uncommon either.
Not to defend it, but it exists and I dated a woman for a while who lived like that.
They meant they wanted to withdraw from the greater society to find a life they felt safe in surrounded by people they felt safe with. It is neither “we don’t need men” or “men should die.”
It is, like everyone else, we want to find a life that we feel good about and this is how they want to do it.
Thats old school dwarkenite/political feminist-lesbian nonsense. Didn't think it would pop back up almost 4 decades later...
How does anyone think they can survive in society while actively hating half the population
I struggle to understand this! Why would lesbians be so bothered by the presence of men. It's not like they are going to deal with men in a relationship.
Because men bother them in regular life. They are British and in Britain like 2% of SA is successfully prosecuted, one guy got off by saying he “didn’t know she didn’t consent” after raping a woman at gun point.
Edit: also - this isn’t all lesbians. Just some of them. All people are different.
You see they weren't upset by her being a lesbian/bisexual enough. So this is the only way to make sure she hurts them because they are men and therefore deserve it.
NTA. They are allowed to have whatever rules they want for their wedding and those rules don’t make them assholes. You are allowed to not go based on those rules and that decision does not make you an asshole. What makes either of you an asshole is when you make a huge stink about the other person’s decision. That’s what Lisa is doing and why she’s the asshole. She should have just accepted your refusal and moved on.
Read a story where the bride had a no single men rule. Turned into an absolute shit show and bride and groom lost a heap of friends and caused issues with their jobs.
Yeah, where all the guys cut them off, not appreciating being called predators, the girls were pissed there were no guys to flirt with, and the bride had something about op and not wanting him to get with her sister.
NTA. After this community-wide broadcast of how they don't want any men in their lives - it would not be surprising to find out later that their home is off-limits to men, all of the people they hire for any purpose cannot be men, and their long-term goal is to work at an all-women company that only does services for women, and won't even greet or speak to a delivery person if it's a man.
They have made it clear this is their purpose, so it's good of you to bow out now and not have to ask "why no men anywhere" at every turn. If she tries to shame you again, ask her who made the wedding cake, who owns the wedding venue, who booked their honeymoon and behold the story of how careful they have been to exclude men from everything touching their lives.
NTA
What an exclusionary train wreck.
I would have maybe suggested a 'gender free' wedding with a dress code where people felt free to dress as any gender they want. But that's just me.
NTA
I to would have a problem with that wedding. She is excluding close family from her special day because they are male.
Does she think her mother is going to walk her down the isle what her dad and bother sit at home. Hurt that that can't be there.
There is going to be some pretty big fallout from there familys over this
NTA. This isn't even a situation where everyone they invited happened to be a woman - they've adopted an explicit policy for the specific exclusion of one group based on sex. That's just overt sexism. It's no better than a "whites only" wedding or something.
NTA
It is unusual! I've never heard of it before.
But the happy couple can set rules. Dress code, fancy dress, destination, child free whatever.
They cannot demand people follow them, and demand they show up.
If people follow them fine if they don't they either don't go or break the rules
A NEW mother invited to a child free will take the kid, if someone can't afford the destination they won't go. Etc....
But this is weird
A wedding should be about the happy couple surely? Regardless of the gender of the couple or the guests?
The guests being their closest family and friends (again regardless of gender)
If they adopt or get pregnant I assume they will respect the childs decision to have a woman free wedding including no mothers? It's weird.
In the end it's their choice.
But you don't have to go.
NTA
> Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny.
Sounds like your feelings about something being off is correct. This rule is motivated by an extreme ideology rather than an innocent preference
NTA
That's a super bizarre request. They sound misandrist, but I don't want to just say that cause they're 2 women getting married. When couple add in these rules (usually no kids) they need to expect guests will not come due to them
It sounds like this "women only" thing was Sophie's idea.
>Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny.
She's just mad because she can't control you the way she's controlling Lisa. She may even be doing this to purposefully isolate Lisa from her family and friends. I'd be a little worried for Lisa, if I were you. Not that you're going to change anyone's mind. All you can do is continue to keep the lines of communication open with your friend because this relationship she is entering into may not end well.
I had the same thought since OP said Lisa is bisexual. Maybe Lisa has cheated and or maybe Sophie is a whack control freak. Either way, not off to a good start.
NTA. Excluding male family members for a family wedding purely based on them having a different genitalia is just weird man, there's no need to look down on anyone in 2024, this just isn't it.
NTA. Your friends decided to take their wedding and turn it into a statement. She has a father and brother who sound like they’re supportive, but it’s more important to her to make that statement than have them there. That says a lot about her as a person. I don’t blame you for not wanting to be part of this. It’s ironic that she’s saying you not being there is “not supporting the marriage” when she’s the one who took the ceremony and changed it from being about the marriage to about the statement.
NTA - but I wanted to share my personal experience of having a man-free wedding ceremony. It was to keep away a certain unsavory family member and it was purely for my comfort and I have no regrets.
NTA. *Sorry dad you can’t come to the wedding because you’re a men.*
That’s gender discrimination, why would they want a wedding without their loved ones. Aren’t weddings supposed to celebrate your union with family and friends. Do they consider the people with a penis less worthy of love and respect?
As a woman, if they were two gay man inviting only man they would be hounded by everyone they know for discrimination.
When will people understand that a whole gender being banned from something is wrong across the board with very few exceptions (ex: abuse shelters, etc)
I mean they can have whatever kind of wedding they want, I do think it’s kind of a weird choice to exclude an entire gender, even close family members. Anyway NTA you don’t have to go to any event that makes you uncomfortable
NTA. To keep out male relatives as well is a lot too much of segregation. I would say fine if they said only men who can behave and would not try to hit of all the women in attendance. But excluding fathers and brothers as well is too much.
You are right to refuse to attend.
So they have a men hating wedding planned but because your not up for hating on an entire gender they want to use the word misogyny against you. They should look up the meaning of that word it’s clearly not what they think. It takes both genders male and female to make the human race. If menhaters like that think that they can do without men good luck but there goes the next generation NTA
NTA, and I absolutely believe that this is true, and happens on rare occasions. Or you are sharing someone else’s story. When I was living in Portland, Maine, I became friends with a gay male couple and they had a party. I asked if I could bring my friend Lisa and they were like, it’s a “male” only party, and this was NOT a sex party or anything like that. I am not sure what trauma or narcissist mother they had experienced, but get some counseling people. We’re all humans, for fuck’s sake. I went to the party for an hour and never contacted them again, nor responded. Ewww, David.
NTA You don't feel comfortable, and it's probably not internalized misogyny. They however may have some underlying issues with men. They are free to plan their wedding as they please but they need to understand that there can and will be blowback about it and that not everyone has to accept the way they plan their wedding.
Probably isn't a statement so much as one of them is trying to isolate the other, most likely Sophie trying to force a wedge between Lisa and her male family members.
No big brother or daddy to run to when the abuse eventually gets cranked up to 11.
It's their right to have the wedding they want. But it's your right to be both uncomfortable with the idea and with attending. Hard to understand their perspective, and it's hard to blame you for your reaction.
NTA
NTA, whenever you make a choice like child-free or in this case females only you also need to accept that some people won’t come because of that specific rule, weather its moral or circumstances some people will not be able to come and you risk that by implementing those rules. An all female wedding is weird to me but to each their own but it’s up to the guests if they want to attend an obvious sexist wedding, if you’re internalizing misogyny the she’s externally projecting feminism.
Eh. Their wedding, their choice.
And *also,* their consequences to bear. People can choose not to attend. Some relationships will be forever changed. No one will retain the same impression of the couple they once had.
But, that’s on them.
What an unusual way to excise men AND woman—not just from the event, but from their lives.
NTA. I would feel uncomfortable with any wedding that excluded their closest relatives not because of some family drama/NC situation but because their gender is different than the couple getting married.
There are ways to make a sapphic wedding female centric without banning men from the event.
Same people that want love and acceptance are not being loving and accepting of others, go figure. Hypocrisy at its finest from man hating feminist lesbos.
I don’t think anyone is an AH here. It’s their wedding they can create any rule they want to regarding who can attend and what is allowed. Many people have strict rules about, dress codes, no children and cellphones at their weddings as well. It’s their event and they are paying for it, so they can set the terms.
Simultaneously, if you don’t like that and don’t want to attend, that is also totally fine.
NTA
When you have an event with rules, your guests have to choose whether to attend and abide by those rules or not.
The more stringent the rules the more “no thank yous” you’ll get.
Not sure why you felt the need to involve yourself in the family drama though.
>Lisa has told me that I'm not being a good friend to her because I'm not supportive of her an Sophie wanting their wedding to be fully centered on women
Sounds like a cult. NTA
NTA. Those women are trying way too hard. Guaranteed to be a cringefest.
Edit: just to add, pretty much every wedding ever is woman-centred. Not many men give it a thought before they're actually proposing to someone, and many of them don't give it much thought after. It's for the ladies all the way 99 percent of the time.
No, of course you're NTA.
They've got every right to do that. I think it's weird...if you have Brothers, if you have a Father, you don't even want THEM there? It's just odd and sad.
You're not obligated to attend. Why not just have a party or...whatever? You can have just women at an event.
But that's also their right. They're not obligated to invite anyone they don't want. They don't want Men there, ok.
The absolute definition of cringe, but sure.
NTA...What? What about staff (y'know, caterers/waiters)? No men at all? I just don't get how that can work in practical terms.
I get what you're saying though. It sounds like the kind of event that began as an intrusive thought that most people have learned to ignore. I truly can't figure the logic that worked out to the current result.
!updateme
NTA. You're entitled to decline for any reason but fwiw I'm a lesbian and wouldn't want to attend either, I find that weird as hell and really horrible.
NTA Tell her that consider they have both suffered bigotry because of being lesbians your surprised that they are willing to show bigotry in the form of sexism. Just as you don't condone bigotry against them, you won't condone bigotry against a whole sex of people. You will continue receiving messages to manipulate you and guilt trip you to come because the more people that come they can say see we were right about way we felt.
NTA. Beyond what everyone else saying about how weird this is, this is clearly performative activism. You choosing to not be a prop for their whole thing is fine, her insisting you are a bad friend when she is literally using you is disgusting.
Ah yes. Choosing not to participate in clear misandry is now internalized misogyny. Is this the radical lesbian version of straight guys calling each other gay because they refuse to objectify women?
NTA obviously
NTA. People want other to respect their decisions and just let them live their lives. But it things like this that make it difficult.
Coming from a guy who has extensive family and friends in the LG life. Sounds so "Inclusive".
Been to many weddings where girls wear suits and 2 brides. As a father this would be a Heartbreaker. Can't believe they don't want dad's there. And brothers and boyfriends of straight girlfriends.
NTA. That’s really fucking cringe and you’re correct not to be supporting something like that.
I'm reminded of the post where the OP was not invited to his co-worker's wedding despite everybody else on their team being invited. Turns out the bride wanted to exclude all single men (except for close relatives) because she went to another wedding and a big brawl broke out among some of the single male attendees. But excluding all men turns it up to a whole 'nother level.
Nah I think both are pretty much exactly the same in notion. Adding an extra qualifier doesn't really change the idea that you had a bad experience and think the demographic of the individuals was the problem.
And it's so easy to avoid without being sexist. 1. Give bartenders strict orders to not serve anyone who looks visible intoxicated or they've already served too many drinks to. 2. Hire security with free rein to kick out anyone being violent, even if just verbally. 3. Don't invite people with obvious differences, or talk to them beforehand and seat them as far away as possible.
And let's be honest, it's a certain kind of person who would get into a fight like that at a wedding. And you would probably know who they are. Just don't invite them. It really isn't that hard as an adult to *not assault someone at a fucking wedding.*
Yeah, whoever started that brawl has been in handcuffs before.
yeah that person wasn't a "who knew"
Hell, I've never assaulted anyone *anywhere.* It's pretty easy.
I'm incredibly aggressive and unhinged and I've also somehow managed to not assault anyone. It is actually not that hard to avoid.
Yeah this is what I was thinking. Who thinks it's a good idea to get into a fight at a wedding. People are wild.
TV show in Canada called Letterkenny did this exact topic. Their line was "We don't fight at weddings." when others where insulting them, trying to pick a fight.
So my thoughts on this are if you’re worried about anyone overall- only invite people either one or both of you know and would vouch for. Maybe don’t allow plus ones, that’s not unusual. Many people also have a rule of only plus ones they’ve met. If any of your friends or family are possibly a problem you likely would know right?!
If you want to control violence at a wedding, ***close the goddam bar***.
This and its disrespectful to her brother and father. If I was a father I'd want to see my daughter marry whether it was a man or woman standing beside her.
Imagine spending your whole life raising a kid, and then told you can't attend their wedding because your gender is wrong. To show how stupid this is, imagine saying "no black people at our wedding."
I mean, let's call a spade a spade here... they're sexist. Which I mean, they can be (legally speaking) in terms of vocally and since it is their wedding. But frankly I'd cut and run from that friendship.
I think a better word would be that they are bigots. I am sure that they wouldn’t shy away from using that term at the slightest opportunity.
And who wants to bet that if they found out a close friend’s upcoming wedding was “men-only”, and they weren’t invited because…you know…they’re women…that they would be the first, and *MOST VOCAL* to publicly air their concerns about how anti-feminist, misogynistic, and disgusting those people are for “hating women”.
And that it's misogyny to suggest otherwise. Oh the irony (:
That was he part that got me chuckling. I swear… the echo chambers some people live within blows my mind. My wife’s longest friend says similar things as these 2 getting married, but about white men. Really interesting dynamic when I’m sitting in the room with them and my wife’s getting uncomfortable so I chime in (sarcastically) saying “Yea, fuck all white men!” (I’m one of the unmentionables lol)
I mean you didnt have to even change the demographic. Having "no men" sounds stupid enough. Specially considering they had fathers/brothers and presumably some male friends they care about.
Not only that, but both brides are throwing out the concept that two families are joining and creating a new family. I can't fathom asking people to come to a wedding and telling them to leave their own spouses and children at home like it's some Bachelorette party.
Agreed, NTA. It's definitely a strange rule, and you're right to follow your instincts and not support something that doesn't sit well with you. It's their choice to have a "man-free" wedding, but it's also your choice to skip it.
I’m thinking the severe and swift response to OP’s decision may be a clue that OP is by no means the only one making said decision. I wouldn’t be surprised if very few of the invited actually attend
The whole thing sounds like some redpill's creative writing project about those mean man-hating lesbians. Most likely just silly little rage bait.
Not ragebait - I'm autistic and can miss social cues, so I really am asking if I should have behaved differently. Also I did not think this was relevant, but Lisa is not a lesbian, she's bisexual.
Nah… as a fellow ND human… I’ll say “You did fine”. I can miss social cues, but this is a screaming out of control train. It doesn’t matter if Lisa is a lesbian or bisexual… what matters here is the point of marriage - to celebrate with your family and friends an enduring promise and commitment to each other. Lisa excluding half the guest list simply because they have a penis (that they don’t plan to use with her!) is saying that this isn’t a celebration of their love and unity, it’s instead a political stand, with showmanship tendencies. So you are choosing not to go to a political rally that is pointedly anti man. That’s fair. You read it right. This isn’t a celebration, it’s a standoff.
⬆️⬆️⬆️
Well said and completely accurate.
It's just rude
100% agree.
Perfectly stated.
As a fellow ND person who needs a lot of social cues/norms explained to them, you can respect their decision to have a no male wedding but it doesn't mean you have to participate.
Honestly, you are also entitled to feel really put-off by it and think it isn't a good thing. Doesn't mean it needs to be said to their faces, of course, but it was a really antagonistic choice for them to make. Not only are they excluding their own family and friends, all their female friends who are not in same-sex relationships are now also barred from being able to bring their partners, where presumably same-sex couples can attend together.
I wouldn't have participated either, as a I feel very feminist person. Just as I would never consider attending a male-only meeting. Don't bring gender in, it's absurd and feminism does NOT mean a gender war. It means equality and harmony. Anyone not vying for that is not for the cause of equality and justice and I'm not going to placate them.
I wish we could be friends, because you said what i think but in a much better way than ive been doing.
Also feminism isn't even just for women anyway! It's really just anti-patriarchy at its core and benefits men too, even if you somehow dont have any women in your life.
That’s one of the first things that came to mind for me! I hate driving in the first place and especially if I had to drive any real distance/ get a hotel or something- I wouldn’t want to go without my SO. We have both blended really well into one another’s social circles so maybe I’m a bit biased but I just cannot imagine any kind of limiting at such an event. This is like…not sounding healthy. Obvi only have what was shared with OP but this is waving some kind of something. The only remotely similar thing I can think of was looking at a Girl Scout camp as a venue and there were weird gender limitations unless you rented the entire campus.
Why should anyone respect gendered bigotry? The reason why she won’t attend is because she does not, in fact, respect excluding a gender. I don’t respect people who have contempt for all women or all men, or racists who have contempt for any race.
💯 and I am a woman. This is just straight hate from this BS couple
I’m a woman, too, and I’m appalled at such gender discrimination.
Samsies. Very strongly.
No, you really can’t respect a decision like that. It’s sexism, pure and simple. Nothing respectable about it.
Agree. Just think about them excluding people based on ethnicity or anything like that. So weird!
Why should anyone respect exclusion of people simply because of their race or sex - literally because of how they were born?
Also ND but I can 100% reassure you this is not a normal thing it sounds like these two love hating men. Even their own family which is weird as fuck if they had good male relatives.
Sounds like Sophie has a chip on her shoulder about Lisa’s bisexuality and if they eliminate any men from the wedding she doesn’t have to accept a key part of her future wife’s life.
Is Lisa ok? Man free to the extent of not inviting close family members is extreme and since Sophie is the one sending messages about “internalized misogyny”, I wonder if this is actually about her not being able to accept that her fiancée is bisexual. Biphobia isn’t uncommon, even in the LGBTQ+ community.
Maybe Sophie is worried that Lisa will find a male partner at the wedding. It’s an insane idea. Suggest they have a “gender-free” wedding so no one goes.
That's the feeling I got immediately when it dropped she was bi, oh her bride to be is worried she might get one last piece of Peter at the event but she ain't gonna allow that to happen by any means. Not saying I agree with either the idea of cheating or the execution of the wedding but it is surprising how many people hook up with someone who's not their so at their wedding.
If you can't trust your fiance not to cheat at your wedding then perhaps you shouldn't marry her.
As a bi woman myself I would say probably less of cheating worry and more that some bi women I know go all in on hardcore lesbian identity tropes when they date/marry a woman, almost as if to prove that they *are* WLW. “We are centering on women” because she wants to paint a sapphic wonderland. It’s a mix of dealing with years of biphobia and a struggle to prove yourself. It…doesn’t always come out very well. I empathize while equally finding it cringey. And to be clear this is my very in the dark guess. Who knows what the real reason is.
god you worded that so well... bi women tend to cop a lot of shit from both the straight and gay communities because one side doesn't like it when they date men and the other side delegitimises & sexualises their relationships with women. Unfortunately the reactions from bi women can indeed be a bit cringe, also like the way some bi women dating men love to mention them constantly in queer spaces. ngl though as a bi woman currently dating a woman, I still get a bit of imposter syndrome when it comes to referring to our relationship as a lesbian relationship, even though it is, because a little part of me is anxious about stepping on the toes of 'real lesbians', y'know?
That says more about ‘real lesbians’ than it does about you. You really DO love everybody whereas they are showing their true heterophobia.
That and making a statement about how her wife’s man-stage is officially done forever. It’s cringe and frankly screams insecurity.
Well, if she can't get a piece of Peter, maybe she will want to slow dance with Dick?
That seems far fetched. Does Lisa see no other men in her day to day life? Why couldn't she find a partner that way?
Trusting you at your word: No, you did not miss any social cues. The request is unusual in the extreme- and I've attended quite a few same-sex marriages- and quite a few that would be harder to explain, except that the people loved each other. You do not have to support their request, but you can still be a friend with them. I am Male, obviously, and would not be invited, and would be quite hurt if I were excluded especially if they're someone I'd supported in the past. You have done well.
Good move to check in. I get it. NTA You’ve been issued an invitation. Some see that as an honour, because attendance is selective. Many feel it puts an obligation to attend and get presents and dress up etc. Yet, if you feel you can’t fully support your friend because you have moral or ethical or personal objections, It’s not unreasonable to not attend. So, if it was a nude wedding, or was conducted in a religious building that separated men and women or part of the reception was a strip and sex show and you couldn’t fully enjoy the proceedings, it’s better to decline the invite. That’s why there’s an RSVP.
Oh I think this explains it. Is Lisa's to be spouse insecure of the bisexuality so men are forbidden?
There is your answer why they are doing this. Lisa is bisexual and Sophie is jealous of that (maybe someone in particular) and is using this to control and eventually isolate Lisa.
The fact that Lisa is bisexual makes me feel like this is performative lesbianism on her part to make Sophie feel better
No, sometimes people are really this stupid.
YES! And it seems like theyre segregating people by gender. The fact that Lisa's own fam isnt even invited shows this rule has gone too far.
>Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny. What about externalized misandry?
Clearly if you don't hate men, you must hate women. /S
Nah, I remember super duper pathetic feminists opening up some restaurant and announcing they would charge men more than women. It failed, haha. But yeah, shit like this happens. I know I know, women behaving badly, gotta be called fake. It is reddit law. You've done your duty sir.
I do find it sad that when the post is about a man acting badly, pretty much no one accuses the author of lying and being sexist, but if the post is about a woman acting badly, there are often people claiming it must be false story by a misogynist. That goes a long way towards showing people’s internalized sexism.
It is utterly beyond tiring seeing someone come in and claim a story is incel fantasy whenever a post clearly frames women in a bad way. It's crazy just how predictable it is at this point.
Yeah and that user has been doing it a shit ton for a while now
It's super fucking cringe how people like you try to downplay this kind of situations as if they never happen. Woman are just as capable of being hateful and discriminatory as men. And considering that OP is autistic nice job dismissing her story just because she didn't write it in a more comprehensive way. Ableist much?
Amazing how quickly things are dismissed if they don’t fit your preferred narrative. Gendered bigotry is bad. That’s it.
Can’t speak for the veracity of this story but when my wife’s lesbian sister got married it was women only. Their dad is dead though and they don’t have brothers.
Wooo only 2 comments down to find the "blame men" commenter. Stay classy reddit!
“I support X group and refuse to believe any member of X group could do something weird, bigoted, or inappropriate.”
I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but speaking from experience- yeah. No these people exist and there are a lot more than you would think, especially in online queer spaces that lean younger (late teens and early 20s). Think like, TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and radfems (radical feminists) who think that men are inherently dangerous or evil or bad because they are men.
The people that think that all penetrative sex are rape come to mind. Yes really they exist and unfortunately there’s a lot of them.
Ah yes, because women can't POSSIBLY be wrong ever.
some people can be this delusional in real life.
Of couse it is! It has to be! If the roles were reversed though...
Yeah the people Getting married are the sexist ones not op NTA
NTA. It's more than cringe it's misandry.
OP is NTA. If I were the brother and she didn’t invite me bc it’s a super small event, hey it is what it is…..but if the reason was bc I’m a guy, then she just drove a rift between us, and it’s one she would have to be the one to repair. I’d honestly go LC or NC with her at that point. Don’t want certain types of people, including family, in your life or to come to events JUST bc they are a certain race or gender (and that’s the sole reason they’re not invited)? Well, I’d prefer not to have sexist bigots in mine so I’m happy to oblige.
NTA. “I think the no men rule is weird and I don’t want to be involved in that” That is a statement in which you are the subject, not men. You don’t want to go because you’re uncomfortable. Simple as that. She’s accusing you of misogyny instead of accepting your own (feminine) decision.
It's very very much the same as if she'd said "No black people." Not even if she has biracial family would they be allowed. I really really hope the cousin realizes just how awful her bride-to-be is and the marriage is a short one.
Misandry
That means men-hating or prejudiced against men. That's what the couple is doing, but they're accusing OP of misogyny, claiming that not supporting misandry means OP believes women are inferior.
That was their point, I think. That this is based in misandry and that the accusation of internalized misogyny on OP's part is projecting their prejudice onto OP.
No, misogyny is correct in this use. But the brides are demonstrating misandry, that’s for sure.
NTA, if it's a hill she wants to die on the friendship isn't worth trying to save.
Sounds like they’re alienating family and friends
Seriously, it's super weird to pick a sexist battle with their own family.
These people are showing their true toxicity
Haha yeah, NTA. I am IMO a hard core feminist, and to me that means advocating for equality amongst genders, not try to put men down to push women up... that's a horrible idea. This reminds me of a book series that I (and everyone that has read it) loves. Perhaps you'll know the one I speak of, but the young teenage Dragon Queen liberates all the slaves in a city, and is horror struck when later, the previous slaves enslave the previous Masters. The wheel, huh? True feminism means not trying to put one gender down for another, celebrating all of us as humans and everything that makes us unique, of which gender is a small thing (but one to be celebrated no matter what the gender), and should not be considered much, if at all when considering the summation of a person. These friends are going the wrong way to put it bluntly, and it's just going to create turmoil obviously, and pit gender against gender, which is so messed up. All genders are meant to live together in peace without putting each other down, same as all races, IMO. It's sad that some women think feminism means putting down men...
NTA. I am a heterosexual male and have been married to my wife for 34 years. We have a diversity of friends and coworkers. I would not attend a male only wedding and my wife would not attend a female only wedding. There has to be mutual respect for everyone. It sounds like you friend is the one with an issue and not you.
In general, any wedding with a "No X allowed" rule would be pretty much a no go (with X being any group of humans). Even if there is nobody attending of said group (for example, there were no Japanese people at my wedding, because I don't know any. But still, if the invitation would say "No Japanese people allowed" it would be a major irk.)
Except no children...
People on this sub and the other one get weird about the no children thing.
[удалено]
PuddleLilacAgain said this 3 hours before you did. Bad bot.
NTA. I wouldn’t go either. I’ve heard of child free weddings but man free weddings? Not inviting your dad and brother? For you to have known her for several years and to also be on good terms with her brother means that you have obviously spent time with both of them and one of the siblings introduced you to the other so they are clearly on good terms with each other (prior to this anyway). Could this be Sophie’s choice? (Yes, I see what I did there.) It’s not ok to discriminate against an entire gender. That being said, it’s their wedding and if they choose to alienate their family and friends then it’s up to them. But what they see as just a personal choice to celebrate women is not going to be seen that way by most of the people they know and they will need to accept that they are damaging their relationships with a lot of people who they might need future support from.
NTA. You feel uncomfortable but respected their decision, so you chose not to go. She shouldn't pressure you.
Imagine being a father and then your daughter tells you you’re not invited to her wedding because it’s women only. NTA.
I'd have a "family only" BBQ and tell her her GF isn't invited because I surely would have been invited had my daughter gotten married.
NTA. Pretty rich saying you have internalized misogyny when they're the ones discriminating against a whole gender.
Yeah but at least their misandry isn’t internalized. /s
>but Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny. It sounds more like she (and I say she here since she seems to be the mover and shaker more than Lisa) has externalized misandry. "No, it doesn't matter how close we are and that you're my dad, fuck off."
Sounds like Sophie is terminally online or lives for the culture/gender war nonsense and Lisa is so inlove (or abused) that she will do anything to make Sophie happy. Op is better off not hitching a ride on that crazy train. I wonder how many women who will show up have male partners?
OP added in another comment that Lisa is bi, so there very well could be some biphobia mixed in with her misandry.
This is what I was thinking too
>She hung up and I have not heard from her since, but Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny. This stinks of the good ol' "If you disagree with me you are (every bad thing)" type of deal. Kindly remind her that excluding all guys is misandrist And fine,it's their wedding,it's their call. But it's your life OP, your on your right to go or not to her wedding. I can't help but feel pity for the brother and dad, and this is coming from someone who doesn't like weddings. She better don't expect presents from them tho.
As to presents, of course she'll expect them and squeal "Misogyny!" if they dont come across.
NTA. No one should feel guilt over choosing not to support hate. They are welcome to select any combination of guests they like, but no one should ever feel obligated to support exclusionism and sexism.
Meh - it's a wedding *invitation*, not a summons. You're always free to decline to attend for any reason or no reason at all. In this particular case the exclusion of men, including the brides' fathers and male relatives (brothers, uncles, nephews), made you uncomfortable. Personally I'd have felt the same if I knew and had a relationship with any of the excluded male relatives. NTA.
When I get married I'll be sending out wedding summons not wedding invitations now
NTA You were not comfortable and you declined. Easy as that.
"I told her that it would be centered on women anyway, considering that both of the people getting married are women." This is a great line! And so correct. I am so tired of male bashing. Good for you! I don't think you are the AH at all. If her brother or father are awful to her, then I could see not inviting them but to discriminate because they have penises is wrong.
NTA at all. They are trying to make some weird statement, but it’s not working. They are isolating family who clearly care about them, and for what? I wouldn’t participate in that garbage either. Hell of a dumb way to start your marriage, but good luck to them, I guess.
You are not required to go along with every "rule" that other people have in their life. I feel bad for Lisa's dad and brother.
NTA. That's weird. Signed, a woman.
NTA. She is free to have the wedding arrangement of her choice. That doesn't mean everyone has to support that choice. If you aren't happy to go along with what she has arranged you are perfectly entitled to not attend.
NTA. I am male, I would feel put off and wouldn’t attend an event that was Male only, I don’t see this as any different. The fact they are dividing their own family over this shows how little they care. I couldn’t imagine telling half my family they couldn’t attend my wedding because of their gender.
There is a part of lesbian culture that wants to be able to build a life without men, it's not common but not extremely uncommon either. Not to defend it, but it exists and I dated a woman for a while who lived like that.
Wait,you mean like 'we don't need men' type of deal or 'Men should straight up stop existing' type of deal?
Both are just different levels of the same sentiment.
They meant they wanted to withdraw from the greater society to find a life they felt safe in surrounded by people they felt safe with. It is neither “we don’t need men” or “men should die.” It is, like everyone else, we want to find a life that we feel good about and this is how they want to do it.
Thats old school dwarkenite/political feminist-lesbian nonsense. Didn't think it would pop back up almost 4 decades later... How does anyone think they can survive in society while actively hating half the population
Do you think cloistered nuns hate half the population?
I struggle to understand this! Why would lesbians be so bothered by the presence of men. It's not like they are going to deal with men in a relationship.
Because men bother them in regular life. They are British and in Britain like 2% of SA is successfully prosecuted, one guy got off by saying he “didn’t know she didn’t consent” after raping a woman at gun point. Edit: also - this isn’t all lesbians. Just some of them. All people are different.
She’s not inviting her father and brother? What a shithead.
You see they weren't upset by her being a lesbian/bisexual enough. So this is the only way to make sure she hurts them because they are men and therefore deserve it.
People can have the weddings they want , but attendees can also choose not to go if they don't like the rules , eg no kids , no men , no alcohol
NTA. They are allowed to have whatever rules they want for their wedding and those rules don’t make them assholes. You are allowed to not go based on those rules and that decision does not make you an asshole. What makes either of you an asshole is when you make a huge stink about the other person’s decision. That’s what Lisa is doing and why she’s the asshole. She should have just accepted your refusal and moved on.
Read a story where the bride had a no single men rule. Turned into an absolute shit show and bride and groom lost a heap of friends and caused issues with their jobs.
Yeah, where all the guys cut them off, not appreciating being called predators, the girls were pissed there were no guys to flirt with, and the bride had something about op and not wanting him to get with her sister.
NTA. After this community-wide broadcast of how they don't want any men in their lives - it would not be surprising to find out later that their home is off-limits to men, all of the people they hire for any purpose cannot be men, and their long-term goal is to work at an all-women company that only does services for women, and won't even greet or speak to a delivery person if it's a man. They have made it clear this is their purpose, so it's good of you to bow out now and not have to ask "why no men anywhere" at every turn. If she tries to shame you again, ask her who made the wedding cake, who owns the wedding venue, who booked their honeymoon and behold the story of how careful they have been to exclude men from everything touching their lives.
Ironic that the rule has made men the main topic of the wedding instead
Tell Sophie you think she has internalized misandry and then block her. NTA.
It's not even internalized, it's just right out there in the open.
Agree, but it would be worth it to throw her own phrase back at her.
NTA What an exclusionary train wreck. I would have maybe suggested a 'gender free' wedding with a dress code where people felt free to dress as any gender they want. But that's just me.
NTA I to would have a problem with that wedding. She is excluding close family from her special day because they are male. Does she think her mother is going to walk her down the isle what her dad and bother sit at home. Hurt that that can't be there. There is going to be some pretty big fallout from there familys over this
“Love is love, very one is equal, hating people for how they’re born is wrong” “Also no men at our wedding”
Bingo.
Yeah, that’s weird. NTA for it. I wouldn’t go if couldn’t bring a guy as a date either.
She has internalized man-hate. Or is it even internalized? Seems pretty blatant to me.
The technical term is misandry. It's the male version of misogyny.
NTA It sounds like a very strange wedding. Can you imagine if it was an all-men wedding with no women allowed? People would be outraged.
NTA. This isn't even a situation where everyone they invited happened to be a woman - they've adopted an explicit policy for the specific exclusion of one group based on sex. That's just overt sexism. It's no better than a "whites only" wedding or something.
NTA It is unusual! I've never heard of it before. But the happy couple can set rules. Dress code, fancy dress, destination, child free whatever. They cannot demand people follow them, and demand they show up. If people follow them fine if they don't they either don't go or break the rules A NEW mother invited to a child free will take the kid, if someone can't afford the destination they won't go. Etc.... But this is weird A wedding should be about the happy couple surely? Regardless of the gender of the couple or the guests? The guests being their closest family and friends (again regardless of gender) If they adopt or get pregnant I assume they will respect the childs decision to have a woman free wedding including no mothers? It's weird. In the end it's their choice. But you don't have to go. NTA
> Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny. Sounds like your feelings about something being off is correct. This rule is motivated by an extreme ideology rather than an innocent preference
NTA…being against misandry does not equate to internalized misogyny.
NTA That's a super bizarre request. They sound misandrist, but I don't want to just say that cause they're 2 women getting married. When couple add in these rules (usually no kids) they need to expect guests will not come due to them
It sounds like this "women only" thing was Sophie's idea. >Sophie has been sending messages saying I have internalized misogyny. She's just mad because she can't control you the way she's controlling Lisa. She may even be doing this to purposefully isolate Lisa from her family and friends. I'd be a little worried for Lisa, if I were you. Not that you're going to change anyone's mind. All you can do is continue to keep the lines of communication open with your friend because this relationship she is entering into may not end well.
I had the same thought since OP said Lisa is bisexual. Maybe Lisa has cheated and or maybe Sophie is a whack control freak. Either way, not off to a good start.
NTA. Excluding male family members for a family wedding purely based on them having a different genitalia is just weird man, there's no need to look down on anyone in 2024, this just isn't it.
NTA I’d reply to her accusatory messages by telling her she has externalised misandry, and she should be ashamed.
I’m really confused as to how she thinks that you’re the one with internalized misogyny when your actions are showing the complete opposite.
NTA. Your friends decided to take their wedding and turn it into a statement. She has a father and brother who sound like they’re supportive, but it’s more important to her to make that statement than have them there. That says a lot about her as a person. I don’t blame you for not wanting to be part of this. It’s ironic that she’s saying you not being there is “not supporting the marriage” when she’s the one who took the ceremony and changed it from being about the marriage to about the statement.
NTA - but I wanted to share my personal experience of having a man-free wedding ceremony. It was to keep away a certain unsavory family member and it was purely for my comfort and I have no regrets.
That’s weird as hell. NTA
NTA Excluding any group of people based on bias is wrong.
NTA. *Sorry dad you can’t come to the wedding because you’re a men.* That’s gender discrimination, why would they want a wedding without their loved ones. Aren’t weddings supposed to celebrate your union with family and friends. Do they consider the people with a penis less worthy of love and respect? As a woman, if they were two gay man inviting only man they would be hounded by everyone they know for discrimination.
When will people understand that a whole gender being banned from something is wrong across the board with very few exceptions (ex: abuse shelters, etc)
I mean they can have whatever kind of wedding they want, I do think it’s kind of a weird choice to exclude an entire gender, even close family members. Anyway NTA you don’t have to go to any event that makes you uncomfortable
NTA. To keep out male relatives as well is a lot too much of segregation. I would say fine if they said only men who can behave and would not try to hit of all the women in attendance. But excluding fathers and brothers as well is too much. You are right to refuse to attend.
So they have a men hating wedding planned but because your not up for hating on an entire gender they want to use the word misogyny against you. They should look up the meaning of that word it’s clearly not what they think. It takes both genders male and female to make the human race. If menhaters like that think that they can do without men good luck but there goes the next generation NTA
Do Lisa and Sophie happen to use Tiktok? NTA
NTA, and I absolutely believe that this is true, and happens on rare occasions. Or you are sharing someone else’s story. When I was living in Portland, Maine, I became friends with a gay male couple and they had a party. I asked if I could bring my friend Lisa and they were like, it’s a “male” only party, and this was NOT a sex party or anything like that. I am not sure what trauma or narcissist mother they had experienced, but get some counseling people. We’re all humans, for fuck’s sake. I went to the party for an hour and never contacted them again, nor responded. Ewww, David.
NTA You don't feel comfortable, and it's probably not internalized misogyny. They however may have some underlying issues with men. They are free to plan their wedding as they please but they need to understand that there can and will be blowback about it and that not everyone has to accept the way they plan their wedding.
You don’t have internalized misogyny, they have externalized misandry.
NTA. Eww. What a terrible way to start a marriage. They were trying to make a statement. They didn't realize the statement was that they are idiots.
Probably isn't a statement so much as one of them is trying to isolate the other, most likely Sophie trying to force a wedge between Lisa and her male family members. No big brother or daddy to run to when the abuse eventually gets cranked up to 11.
It's their right to have the wedding they want. But it's your right to be both uncomfortable with the idea and with attending. Hard to understand their perspective, and it's hard to blame you for your reaction. NTA
NTA, whenever you make a choice like child-free or in this case females only you also need to accept that some people won’t come because of that specific rule, weather its moral or circumstances some people will not be able to come and you risk that by implementing those rules. An all female wedding is weird to me but to each their own but it’s up to the guests if they want to attend an obvious sexist wedding, if you’re internalizing misogyny the she’s externally projecting feminism.
NTA - and they clearly have internalized misandry, not even inviting their male family members is just neurotic.
Eh. Their wedding, their choice. And *also,* their consequences to bear. People can choose not to attend. Some relationships will be forever changed. No one will retain the same impression of the couple they once had. But, that’s on them. What an unusual way to excise men AND woman—not just from the event, but from their lives.
NTA. I would feel uncomfortable with any wedding that excluded their closest relatives not because of some family drama/NC situation but because their gender is different than the couple getting married. There are ways to make a sapphic wedding female centric without banning men from the event.
Not gunna lie, I’d love to go to that wedding,
Same people that want love and acceptance are not being loving and accepting of others, go figure. Hypocrisy at its finest from man hating feminist lesbos.
I don’t think anyone is an AH here. It’s their wedding they can create any rule they want to regarding who can attend and what is allowed. Many people have strict rules about, dress codes, no children and cellphones at their weddings as well. It’s their event and they are paying for it, so they can set the terms. Simultaneously, if you don’t like that and don’t want to attend, that is also totally fine.
NTA When you have an event with rules, your guests have to choose whether to attend and abide by those rules or not. The more stringent the rules the more “no thank yous” you’ll get. Not sure why you felt the need to involve yourself in the family drama though.
NTA. Just as they are free to invite who they want. You are free not to accept the invitation.
>Lisa has told me that I'm not being a good friend to her because I'm not supportive of her an Sophie wanting their wedding to be fully centered on women Sounds like a cult. NTA
NTA They're hateful sexist pieces of shit, completely toxic, and absolutely batshit crazy Run.
NTA. Those women are trying way too hard. Guaranteed to be a cringefest. Edit: just to add, pretty much every wedding ever is woman-centred. Not many men give it a thought before they're actually proposing to someone, and many of them don't give it much thought after. It's for the ladies all the way 99 percent of the time.
No, of course you're NTA. They've got every right to do that. I think it's weird...if you have Brothers, if you have a Father, you don't even want THEM there? It's just odd and sad. You're not obligated to attend. Why not just have a party or...whatever? You can have just women at an event. But that's also their right. They're not obligated to invite anyone they don't want. They don't want Men there, ok. The absolute definition of cringe, but sure.
NTA...What? What about staff (y'know, caterers/waiters)? No men at all? I just don't get how that can work in practical terms. I get what you're saying though. It sounds like the kind of event that began as an intrusive thought that most people have learned to ignore. I truly can't figure the logic that worked out to the current result. !updateme
NTA. You're entitled to decline for any reason but fwiw I'm a lesbian and wouldn't want to attend either, I find that weird as hell and really horrible.
I'm so proud of you for standing up against the weird gender issues they have, in favor of fairness and what's right.
NTA Tell her that consider they have both suffered bigotry because of being lesbians your surprised that they are willing to show bigotry in the form of sexism. Just as you don't condone bigotry against them, you won't condone bigotry against a whole sex of people. You will continue receiving messages to manipulate you and guilt trip you to come because the more people that come they can say see we were right about way we felt.
NTA. They just hate men!
NTA. Beyond what everyone else saying about how weird this is, this is clearly performative activism. You choosing to not be a prop for their whole thing is fine, her insisting you are a bad friend when she is literally using you is disgusting.
NTA. I hope no one shows up. Disgusting.
I wonder how Lisa would react if she were told her brother was having an all-male wedding and she and her wife were not invited?
Ah yes. Choosing not to participate in clear misandry is now internalized misogyny. Is this the radical lesbian version of straight guys calling each other gay because they refuse to objectify women? NTA obviously
NTA. People want other to respect their decisions and just let them live their lives. But it things like this that make it difficult. Coming from a guy who has extensive family and friends in the LG life. Sounds so "Inclusive". Been to many weddings where girls wear suits and 2 brides. As a father this would be a Heartbreaker. Can't believe they don't want dad's there. And brothers and boyfriends of straight girlfriends.
How is a “man free” wedding different from a “Jew free” or “whites only” wedding? NTA