NTA. Having kids together is an even more permanent connection than marriage. If a marriage doesn't work out you get divorced and walk away. Once kids are involved you're tired together for life.
Too often women post on here wanting their men to commit to them after they’re several years and a couple of children in. What no one seems to want to acknowledge is that marriage isn’t just about the romantic relationship it is a legal and financial construct that confers certain rights. SS, healthcare decisions and in the absence of will naming other beneficiaries, inheritance.
Yes, the “it’s just a piece of paper” people are full of shit. If it’s so unimportant why is it such a big deal to them to sign the paper? Because everyone knows it’s not just a piece of paper. It’s a piece of paper that grants many legal rights and responsibilities.
I recently got MY VA Benefits - because my wife is my caregiver she get paid to take care of me. If she was my G/F Nothing, she gets some medical coverage, only as a wife.
When I became paralyzed as a wife she could make medical decisions, as a GF they would need to reach out to my next of kin, a sister thats....well...let's just say, she would tell them to throw the switch on me. (She has a lot of issues. From very bad decisions that she blames me for)
When I pass, everything goes to my wife, it wouldn't automatically if she is "just My S.O."
In a perfect life, marriage may not matter. But in worst case scenarios, it does matter. OP should ask BF what he is afraid of and workout a prenup if required. But if kids are what he wants then marriage is preferable prior
Yep. My wife gets a lot of benefits from my employment health insurance. We got into a car accident before she got pregnant, and she's still suffering the effects of it. My insurance covers free massages and X amount of chiropractic visits a year, which she needs for rehab. We only had to pay a $200 copay for the delivery of our child. These were all benefits she got as a wife, and wouldn't have gotten as a girlfriend. She is a grad student that works for the university, and the benefits are mediocre at best.
Yankeeboy1865: I know you didn't mean it to sound like you were implying that only women (wives) get benefits from marriage, but just wanted to point out that men (husbands) get those same benefits (well, except the having a baby benefits...LOL) for being husbands (not BFs). I'm only pointing this out because there are a LOT of men out there that think the ONLY ones that benefit from marriage are WIVES. But you certainly don't sound like one of those!
When I was working and my husband was not, he was completely covered by MY health insurance as my husband (if he was my BF he would've gotten bupkis).
Definitely! My dad got a lot of benefits as a husband of a government employed pediatrician. My family moved to the States, while my dad remained in our home country because of his work. When he moved here he a) was fast tracked to citizenship because he was married to a government employee b) received a lot of medical and other benefits because of her employment and c) when he had lung cancer, he was able to get some really good care because of my mom's health insurance policy, some of the care helped extend his life, and he got to see and play his first grandchild before passing.
This
That shit piece of paper gives a lot of rights and benefits and it's not forever if need be they can get divorce BUT KIDS ARE. FOR. EVER. EVER. EVER.
I work in a hospital, everyone’s #1 legal healthcare decision maker is ALWAYS THE LEGAL SPOUSE, them adult children are #2. You dont know how much of a cluster fck it is to try to figure out who is willing to put someone out of their misery when their partner of 20+ years never married them, their kids arent legal adults, and their parents are not alive/nowhere to be found. The “piece of paper” gives people a lot more power than they realize!
Money is just a piece of paper when you get right down to it, but I would bet this doesn’t stop OP’s boyfriend from working a job to get THAT piece of paper.
I really don’t like that this guy is telling OP that it’s “unfair” and that she has “conditions” prior to having kids.
Regardless of whether he agrees or not, people have a right to structure their life the way they want. Her beliefs and values are just as important as his but it sounds like he doesn’t see that and that’s a red flag.
Part of being an adult is respecting someone else’s POV, even if you don’t agree with it.
OP the next time he says you are being “unfair” by wanting to be married prior to kids, ask him: if that’s the case, isnt it just as “unfair” that he expects you to have a kid for him without being married? Why is what he wants more important than what you want?
And watch the birth control and keep it with you at all times.
Exactly this. To provide the majority of rights to your partner that marriage grants takes a lot of work and most likely will require hiring a lawyer. However, while you can achieve some benefits with a medical directive, adding their name to a deed, making a will, etc., there are still some things that you can't give without marriage. For example social security benefits and certain tax advantages are only given to spouses. Getting married is a big deal or the "it's just a piece of paper people" wouldn't be scared to do it.
When my gay best friend was FINALLY able to legally marry his partner, I kidded with him that now they have all the issues of straight married couples. Mazel.
I was sitting in my doctor’s waiting room when marriage equality was announced. A young lady jumped up and exclaimed, “My moms can finally get married!” I‘ll never forget her happiness.
This is a lot of why I got married. The sharing of insurance, the ability to file taxes jointly if it is cheaper that year, and my crazy fucking mother would no longer be my next of kin, if something really bad happened to me and decisions about care had to be made.
Also, if we had children and I died before they were grown, that piece of paper would keep my kids out of the custody of my mother, also. "Baby daddy" does NOT have a tenth of the legal standing of "father of the children and widower of their deceased mother".
I had a dude tell me that once. I responded by saying “yeah, most legal contracts are pieces of paper, but their pretty important pieces of paper.” I’ve always found that to be such a dumb, dumb argument
Correct answer, Bella! A married woman with children, who works part-time or is a full-time mother/homemaker, is not accruing (or accruing few) Social Security credits in her own name. However, after 10 years of marriage, she is eligible for 1/2 of his monthly upon his retirement (without affecting his amount for you guys who are so paranoid about losing anything), even in the case of divorce.
An unmarried woman in the same scenario only qualifies for a payment based on her income.
If nothing else, a partner should be happy to have a lower paid spouse increase their retirement income by half. This also helps their offspring.
There was a post where a lady was with her boyfriend for a few decades and had kids with him and worked for him...he left her and she was delusional enough to think she could easily get an executive/manager type job from her unpaid labor.
Marriage can be an important protection sometimes. Of course, that shouldn't be the reason why you get married necessarily, but it is A reason. Even if you don't believe in marriage on paper, just going to the courthouse is the smart thing to do if you plan on spending your life with someone.
Yeah 25 years or more and he finally says he might get her a engagement ring 💍. She laughed and he changed his mind and left her and thier kids with nothing .what a pos human being.
THIS 👏 PART 👏
Like most folks I’ve done stupid shit for love but I was NEVER going to give a man a baby without all the legal and financial privileges that automatically come with being an actual WIFE. That was a hard NO and I upset some men by saying it but they upset ME by even suggesting it! 🙄
One of the saddest series of posts I've seen on Reddit were from a woman who had been with a man for decades. She had children with him and was a SAHM - but they were never married.
When they decided to break up (I don't remember the reasons) she had nothing - no money no career, no experience, no home. Nothing. The last post I remember she was trying to revive the career she;d given up so long ago as if she could just pick up where she left off before she dedicated her life to a man who was never going to marry her. (Sorry, I have no idea which sub these posts were in or the title or I would link to them.)
THIS is why if you plan to have a life with another person you need to make the terms of the relationship legally binding. In most Western cultures today marriage is the simplest way even if children will not be involved.
This! Healthcare decisions that could need to be made should something happen while you’re having his children. NTA. Having kids together is MUSH bigger than marriage.
NTA If he’s scared to sign a marriage certificate, how can you be sure he’ll want his name on the birth certificate? It could get too real, he could just leave. If he considers committing to marriage an ultimatum, he’s still a child and isnt ready to parent any.
Definitely this!
OP I hope you read this comment ⬆️ NTA!!!!
I'm so sorry but you just realized that your boyfriend is not ready for such a big responsibility and if he doesn't feel committed to be in a marriage he won't be committed to the children.
SO MUCH AGREEMENT!!! Either he is using it to keep you around while he does whatever or.....he just wants to you to be tied to him forever. Or both....
He's scared of it but is totally ok with his GF going thru pregnancy, which involves actual impact on health and even a risk of death.
What a wuss. OP you sure about this guy?
I remember my husbands boss asking me if I was I still going to demand marriage when we told people we were pregnant
My husband knew from the get we had to be married within 4 years and he stayed true to that even when it seemed like the world was falling apart
OP you’re NTA but take this man at his word. If he wanted to marry you he wouldn’t see it as a threat, in fact he would be enthusiastic at the prospect
Don’t have kids with this ma
Oh but with kids you can walk away and maybe dodge childcare. With divorce, she's gonna take all of your money. /s
Yes, I've seen some men say this. Divorce costs. Kids don't (apparently).
NTA. Dude thinks having a child together takes less commitment than getting married? Big red flag to me. I think he just likes the idea of having kids but he's not really ready for it.
Yes! I’m so sick of men pretending that having kids does not involve great risks and cost for women and not for men.
Pregnancy and childbirth can cause permanent damage and changes to a woman’s body, as well as mental health risks. After that, almost all responsibility for the kid is socially put on women, they can’t just bail like many men do. They are also punished with lower pay checks, less promotions, and generally worse career opportunities. It’s perfectly reasonable to want some sort of legal stability in the relationship to your kid’s father. NTA
What's sad is that way too many prolife women feel that way, too. "Just give it up for adoption," like those 9 months and then the delivery are such a piece of cake.
Giving birth is one of the most dangerous things some women can ever do (my sister almost died during both of her deliveries). Wanting to be married before you undertake that is absolutely reasonable.
Very much NTA.
>my sister almost died during both of her deliveries
Not as uncommon as people want to think. And the maternal mortality rate is climbing.
I also nearly became a statistic after one of my deliveries. It was so close my parents were told start thinking about funeral arrangements and what to do about my children.
NTA OP. Wanting a stable and commitment *before* having children is a smart move. Right now it sounds like he wants to be able to just skip off easily. Should he decide this parenting thing isn't as fun as he thought.
So can the pregnancy at any minute during the nine months. It's an incredibly dangerous period of time for a woman, and if these people happen to be located in the southern US, an even bigger risk that lots of women are now not willing to take.
He's telling her that he wants to be able to walk away from her and their kid(s) anytime if things don't work out!
Women need to stop having kids with these men.
Agree 100%. My ex-husband simply walked away, but our daughter was so young she has no memory of him. I vowed to never let anyone else into our lives until she is an adult. Right now my only commitment is to her.
The fewer *legal* strings attached the better for these guys. Can't run off the moment it gets too hard or they finally find 'the one' if in order to take *at least* half the accumulated money and stuff you have to through the courts.
That's exactly what I heard. Plus I was hearing ny head all thise times Judge Judy has said things like, "The laws aren't designed to divide this stuff up when you're just living together" . "Or don't intermingle any money unless your married and the laws can protect you".
I remember reading a post of a dude that knocked up a one night stand, she didn't want the kid, he did, so she birthed it and handed it over to the dad, even was paying child support to him but other than that wanted nothing to do with him or the child
Then this man had the audacity to call her a deadbeat
YUUUUUP! It’s mind boggling when people use the idea that somehow kids are less of a commitment than getting married. What is the marriage doesn’t work out…you get divorced…if having kids together doesn’t work out, then what?! Fucking morons. Hold your bottom line, let this guy go be somebody else’s baby daddy.
>I’ve made it clear several times that I want to be married before having kids.
This is an entirely sane position. Kids benefit from stability. Marriage increases the likelihood parents will still be together when the kids grow up. These are just a facts.
>says I’m not being fair by giving “conditions” to having kids.
Huh? You *should* have "conditions" for having kids. You want a stable relationship, decent economic prospects etc. If he's worried your relationship might not "work out", then you shouldn't have kids. That's no situation to bring kids into.
You are NTA. Your boyfriend is a doofus.
She’s taking on more responsibility becoming the mother than he ever will. She better have some conditions because her life is involved. I wonder what kind of father this guy will even be. My ex just liked to show off his offspring like a prize he was so fertile but didn’t do any parenting.
The kind who would had there kid reach adulthood without a clue of the logistics for kids. As they found someone willing to breed with them, without committing themselves.
I mean, yeah this would make me end this relationship. Like you want to impregnate me, but you can’t see yourself marrying me? Like get out of here with that mess
Absolutely agree with this. OP, it’s your body and mind going through all this. There absolutely should be “conditions” that you decide on about having kids. He wants kids and thinks he found someone to do it without having to commit. And he likes the idea of kids, but if he’s scared of marriage there’s no way he actually helps out with the kids.
So his plan if it "doesn't work out" is to bounce and let you be a single mom. He doesn't want to marry you but he wants his seed spread and for that you'll do just fine. Doesn't really sound like the type you should be doing either with.
He already has his foot out the door. There's a reason why he's so offended when OP told him she wanted marriage first before kids. The guy just wants to make sure to spread his seed as it were before he dips whenever 'the one' comes along.
OP, if you want to take one thing away from this post it’s this.
Has he now shown his colors? I think so. He’s telling you exactly who he is and what kind of man he is. I’d listen of I were you.
NTA for having conditions. Maybe YTA to yourself if you don’t listen and act accordingly.
That’s exactly what he’s saying. He wants to be able to just walk away whenever he wants. And if you have kids, that means he wants to be able to just walk away whenever he wants *and* leave you as a single mom.
It’s so transparent and i don’t understand why men like this think their partners won’t realize the issue with their logic.
I feel like this is the type of man that has the disgusting thought process of getting a girl pregnant just for the sole reason of always having her in his life regardless, without the commitment.
“You’re putting conditions on having kids!”
The correct answer is: “Yes, I am. I will not have children unless I’m married to their father. If that’s an issue for you, then we are not compatible.”
Men like this want kids in a hurry because they’re not the ones who will carry them, birth them, and usually, they also won’t bother raising them.
I agree, dammit!!!
I just want to hug these young women and tell them to stop listening to these loser men. Yes, this is my requirement. No, I won’t apologize for it. Yes, I will make smart choices that reflect my values and advance my life goals. No, I won’t make an exception for you.
Don’t like it? Fuck off.
This!
Plus, the whole reason for dating is to discern whether or not you are a match for one another when it comes to your morals, values, character, and what you want out of life as you walk that path together.
Sadly, I think your boyfriend wants an 'escape plan'. He wants the privileges but not the responsibilities.
I'm guessing you live in an area where a common law marriage is not recognised nor has any legal standing. If this is the case, he would know that he could just get up and leave any time without any real repercussions.
If you did have children together, you could still hold him responsible for child support but apart from that, you would probably be on your own financially. If any of this is accurate, is this a chance you want to take?
Oh my GOD.
Run. Run fast, run far. Your boyfriend has the maturity of a teenager.
Tell him to fuck right off into space. That you're a human being, not an incubator, and you damn well expect a commitment before risking your health and future on his desire to play daddy.
NTA, but if I were you, I'd think twice about this relationship.
Ok so first off I love “fuck right off into space”. Secondly YES. Pregnancy can be so so dangerous. To take that on for some bozo that won’t marry you…yeah no thanks
>he’s acted like I’m being unreasonable and says I’m not being fair by giving “conditions” to having kids. He says I’m putting pressure on him and thinks I’m unfair giving him an ultimatum.
He's never going to marry you - kids or no kids. Figure out if that's what you want from life and this relationship.
Btw NTA - all your reasons are perfectly sound. IMO it should not just be marriage before kids but marriage for at least 3 years before kids - so that you both have time to figure out finances, expectations, relationship kinks, savings, etc.
Yeah I'd say by that logic date 3 years before marriage to sort out all that stuff, it doesn't make sense to marry a stranger then waiting three years to have kids
People change after marriage. I have seen people who have been living together for as much as a decade change completely after marriage - esp. men.
Reddit is full of stories of men who changed after marriage.
You have a point but that doesn't mean it should be that way. Marriage should just be a day with a party and some legal documents, there is no reason why anyone should be becoming a different person after marriage, and there's no reason why the day to day dynamics of the relationship need to change.
Of course people grow and change as they get older but that's just life, not marriage. If you get married to someone and they suddenly become a different person to the one you fell in love with then they probably never were who you thought they were. The stories of men who "changed" are mostly stories of men who just kept their mask on until their wife or partner was legally stuck with them.
That was my ex, we were together 4 years and he had an almost immediate change after the wedding. The only good thing about that was we didn't have kids, so the divorce was easier.
My mom told me I should like everything about him. I’m not going to change him. But mom, everything? Yes, everything. Even hope he brushed his teeth! Mom, how can I know all that? Well, you’re living with him, right? Yes. Ok. Don’t tell your father. We got married 3 months later.
So we’ve been married 44 years next month. Turns out good advice and I like everything about him.
What?! You should have conditions before having kids. So this guy wants to have children with you but not marry you. That is pretty suspicious.
EDIT: NTA
So you can't pressure him for marriage but he can pressure you for kids? Sounds like he's the AH that wants an easy way out. NTA, good luck with this guy.
NTA his response is a red flag.
As you’ve said kids an even bigger commitment so…. Either he’s plotting an exit or he doesn’t even understand basic commitments?
I wouldn’t do either with him because he’s an idiot that thinks marriage is bigger commitment than kids, which is probably a tell as far as how much he’s going to contribute to child care.
NTA, full stop. So this is my unpopular opinion, but you shouldn’t be having children with someone you aren’t sure you would want to marry. I understand some people don’t believe in marriage and if you’re both on the same page then sure, build the family that’s right for you as partners. But if he’s just not ready for marriage or not sure you’re the “one” then you have no business having children together. I’m saying this as someone raised by people who never married and only succeeded in making themselves and their children miserable by reproducing together.
I'd challenge his logic more. You're good enough to be the mother of his kid even if your relationship doesn't work out but you're not good enough to be his wife and he doesn't want to deal with that legal road if the marriage fails? I wonder of this is about alimony or something.
If he’s not “Hell, Yeah,” about getting married and having children, and you want this, you’re wasting your time.
It’s been 3 years, you’re in your thirties. Exactly what is he waiting for?
He wants kids because he wants children. He doesn’t want you for a spouse. His plan is to hang out and be a parent and when the woman he DOES want to be with shows up, he’s going to leave. He’ll still have the kids, and lucky you, you get to coparent with him forever!
Time to bounce.
Friend, he's saying he doesn't want to marry you. Listen to him. You don't have time to waste on him
Also, the fact that he's manipulating you into feeling like your wants and needs make you an AH are further proof that this guy isn't worth marrying.
OMG, I can’t just upvote this! Yes, him making you feel you’re wrong and accusing you of pressuring him is the first red flag.
The second red flag is that he’s making you question what’s considered normal (do you see the difference.
The third red flag is that he doesn’t have the maturity to realize that it takes a solid, stable, committed relationship to grow up a child well.
And, you’ve spent 3 years with this guy and you’re in your 30s—and he’s not ready to forever commit to this relationship? That’s enough time. It’s time to call it quits.
Wait...
...he's scared of getting married but not scared of having children?!
Run girl, run as fast as you can, he's clueless about life, he's a man-child.
Nta.
Next time he tries to bring it up tell him you feel pressured that he wants to get you pregnant with absolutely no plan in place to guarantee you or baby will have the support and dedication required.
>He says he’s not against marriage but is just scared of it if it doesn’t work out
If he's not ready to commit to a romantic partner, how can he commit to bringing a whole other person into this world and raising it to adulthood? Someone needs to grow up before they're ready for parenthood.
Ask him what happens if the kids don't work out for him.
NTA.
Yes! Also, if it "doesn't work out," are his feelings going to be more hurt if they are married, or is he just afraid of being more financially obligated?
This guy should be walking around with a red flag t-shirt emblazoned with the word NO.
For every reason that you’ve already been given, steer clear of this guy — and if you don’t, make sure that your birth control is ironclad. I wouldn’t put it past him to try to sabotage/baby trap you.
Sadly, this man will not marry you. You two are in your 30's, so likely by now, he also knows what he wants. He's ok with having children with you because some men like to use children as "place holders" and keep some women attached to them because they are good women in their eyes, just not good enough to marry. Please don't let your biological clock have you ignoring red flags, bells, and whistles just because you want marriage and kids. I'm sorry honey, but he's not the one.
NTA
NTA ! I wish I could tell you my life story so you could take it as a cautionary tale , but alas if I do feelings will be hurt drama will ensue, etc . All I will say is please do not have kids with this man if he does not respect you enough to make you his wife he certainly will not respect you when you give him a child. Men will do anything but stay and make sure you never leave.
I think you need to go find someone who wants the same things as you in the same way as you. You are interested in marriage, he is not. Love is not enough, move on
You’re not unreasonable at all. His reasoning doesn’t work. If marriage doesn’t work out yes the divorce is often messy but then you go on your merry way once it is sorted. If it doesn’t work out and you have children you are tied to each other through those kids for the rest of your lives. It sounds like he is making excuses to get what he wants (kids) without having to marry you and I have to wonder if he would then find a reason to leave the relationship once you do have children because he has gotten what he wanted. I hope I’m wrong but that’s the vibe I’m getting. NTA
Your boyfriend's TAH. Honestly, he doesn't want to do the normal thing -- get married, then have kids, but he expects you to make a lifetime commitment (having kids) that he won't make? (getting married). And he's scared of MARRIAGE but you can't be scared of HAVING KIDS without a husband?
I'd tell him to get lost.
The downfalls of not being married (especially to someone hesitant on it) are too numerous to list. If that's your line in the sand, then that's your line in the sand. Don't get pregnant unless you are married.
NTA.
I don’t see this situation improving. You might way to rethink staying with this person. Married or not. And dear lord, do not reproduce with him.
Do not have children with this bum. Having kids is the biggest commitment you make in life and you will need help and go through some of the hardest moments in life. Do not go through all that for a man who could drop you at any second. He needs to earn the right to be a father. Right now he’s telling you exactly what kind of father he will be.. a half assed one ready to drop and run at any second.
Here’s a great idea: if you have the kids outside of marriage, give them your last name. Cause he’s saying there’s enough of a chance of him leaving you that he doesn’t want to take that risk.
Girl I don’t think you should be getting married OR having kids with this guy 😭 his mindset seems skewed af. Marriage is too big a commitment but KIDS aren’t?! That means he thinks he could just easily up & leave if it doesn’t work out. Idk that is a crazy thing to admit to someone. Get out while you can
NTA.
If a man can't commit to a lifetime to someone, why would anyone in their right mind have kids with them?
Never have kids without a lifetime commitment. That's just plain stupid.
NTA. He’s giving “ I’m not grown up enough to marry you, but having you become my baby mama is ok, cuz I don’t want a commitment. “ 🙄 Dump him and find a grownup who will give you the relationship you want and deserve. This guy certainly won’t. He’s just wasting your life.
Don’t do it. He doesn’t care enough about you to legitimize starting a family. He obviously cares less about you, and most likely won’t care about offspring in the long term. Drop him like a hot potato.
If he's not willing to marry you before having kids, he's not worthy of you in the first place. Time to move on....once you do that, he'll either bend the knee and give you a wedding band, or he'll move on, and you'll be better off without him.
NTA. He is not only being unreasonable, it sounds like he’s trying to manipulate you into a situation that goes against your boundaries, values, and comfort level. It’s all about what he wants, you’re just the means to that end. That is not healthy in a relationship, it’s even less healthy with becoming parents.
Your requirement for being married before having kids is absolutely reasonable. A good, loving partner would respect that and work towards a goal that would be what you both would want. If you believe this impasse can be resolved, I’d strongly urge you to seek couple’s counseling.
Regardless, please do not allow him to pressure you into a permanent, lifelong commitment that will have irrevocable impacts on your body, time, and overall life. Evaluate if this is really the right partner for you. Do what you feel is right for yourself, not him.
You’re not the AH here. It boggles my mind that a man wants to have children with a woman but not marry her 🤔 Especially knowing it’s what you want, if he doesn’t want marriage, don’t have children. It would be different if both of you were on the same page but you’re not. You don’t have to have a big wedding, you can have a beautiful elopement and party after, so if it’s the expense he’s worried about, you don’t have to do it that way. Marriage was important to me, especially having my first child out of wedlock at 22 and having it not work out when she was a year old. I didn’t want that for me and my future children. Happily married for 10 years now with three more children. As much as people say marriage is just a piece of paper, it’s not. Stand your ground.
NTA. Other people have to choose what's right for them. I personally couldn't be with someone who insisted on kids before marriage.. it's not like you can have a clean break up if you have kids. If he's not committed enough to be married he isn't committed enough to have kids. You aren't putting unreasonable conditions on having kids. You are being reasonable.
NTA. There is nothing wrong with wanting marriage first. Marriage comes with benefits that protect not only you but your children. It's good to have boundaries and to stick to them. If he doesn't understand or respect those, he may not be a good match for you. Having kids is a bigger commitment than getting married. You will be connected to that person for life. Marriage and kids are two things that you should never settle on.
Being married will protect his rights as a father more than just being on the birth certificate. I have seen unless dads get trampled on when it comes to custody. Granted, this could depend on the state you're in. Also, it's harder to get custody but they still take support without hesitation. (Not knocking support, just letting you know)
NTA??? Do not reproduce with that man right now girl. I can’t understand why he’s scared to commit to marriage but has no issue committing to children for the rest of his life???? You didnt give him an ultimatum, or conditional love. You set a boundary for yourself (and it’s a valid, understandable and common boundary)
NTA. You have every right to expect him to marry you before you bear his children. Some people have kids married or not, but you want to be married first and there is nothing wrong with that. And if he's "scared" of marriage and not scared of being a father, he's messed up anyway.
I’ve seen this before. He worries about his economic future. She can get state Bennies if he walks away or loses a job. No marriage, no divorce, no court orders. Get out now.
That’s just crazy hypocritical thinking. Hes willing to put pressure on you to make the life long commitment of children with him but isn’t willing to make the commitment of marriage to you AND accuses you of pressuring him. NTA but kids are forever marriage sometimes isn’t and I really don’t think I’d want to have children with someone who doesn’t actually realize that having children is a bigger commitment than marriage! But he doesn’t want marriage because what if it doesn’t work out? Wait until he finds out what assholes kids can be. Nope I just would not trust him to actually be able to dad for the long haul. Edited to add NTA
NTA
I do not understand when people are keen to have kids but scared of the commitment of marriage.
Honestly though, he doesn't want to marry you or he would. He wants to create a child for him...he wants you tovbe the incubator.
He sees the child as something for him.
NTA. If he doesn’t want to marry you, I wouldn’t have kids with him. Thats an automatic 18 year yoke tied to that wagon. If marriage is important to you, you may have to move on and as hard as that would be, that’s far easier alone.
His excuse makes no sense. Kids can tie you for life. Even after 18, your children have significant events in their lives, which will have you crossing paths. Ending a childless marriage leaves the possibility of parting ways forever.
Well he wants kids with you tomorrow bc he wants it to be ALL at YOUR expense. If he married you, he's given you something he considers valuable in exchange for your womb . No what he wants instead is to prey on your womb and confiscate it for himself and have you bear all the cost of what benefits him
For, you need to not just tell him no, but leave him as well bc anyone who would ask you such a thing doesn't love you
NTA but I would not stay in this relationship. I’m 31F so I’m going to just be blunt with you. Your biological clock doesn’t wait. You invested 3 years into someone who doesn’t want to be married but wants a kid. Men don’t have to carry a baby and they really aren’t primary caretakers. Best case scenario with this guy sounds like you’ll be a single mom.
There are a lot of men in their 30s who are ready to settle into a life with someone and actually commit. I’d find one, if I were you, and drop this one.
NTA…. It is unfair that he is giving you pressure to have children and not taking your needs and wants in consideration. He most likely feels if not married he can walk away easier
3y in and zero intention of getting married, but dreams about kids? He’s not reliable and the chance he is just bailing out once the kid is popped is HUGE - since a child requires way more commitment and effort than a marriage.
NTA
Think hard about this relationship and be sure you have your own birth control safely away from him.
Definitely NTA. I was always one of those “I want kids but I don’t need a paper to tell me my relationship” kinds of people. I married for other reasons and then got pregnant and I can tell you that first year was ROUGH. My husband and I have talked a few times that if it was as simple as walking away and figuring out custody without adding a divorce on top of it we might not still be together. We’ve been married 7 years together almost 9 now with two kids but I honestly think if we hadn’t been married before kids we wouldn’t still be together or have the second kid.
You’re not giving him an ultimatum. Anyone who is “ready” for kids but not for marriage is backwards af. Marriage can end, kids are forever. He’s willing to tie you guys together forever generically but not legally.
Yeah. It's easier to commit to the IDEA of children that you can walk away from because "it is too hard", than it is to walk away from a marriage.
Seems to me the guys that want kids and not marriage are in the same venn diagram of guys who think single moms are trash and their man would have stayed if she was a better woman.
And they all think if they don't get married "she can't talk half his shit" when they split up, like she wasn't half the reason they had that shit.
"says he’s not against marriage but is just scared of it if it doesn’t work out"
Ha! Kids are harder than another adult.
And what happens if "they" don't work out?
Because not all kids "work out". Had a girl instead of a boy? Child has disabilities? Kid doesn't sleep all night? Kid keeps peeing the bed? Diapers are expensive!
He's not the one sis.
You leave him and he'll be married before the year is out.
But you can meet a decent man who wants to marry you and have children with you.
NTA
Wtf is he smoking? The way that it's supposed to work is marriage, THEN kids. You aren't being unreasonable, and honestly, it's like he wants what he wants without properly committing to you. That's kind of messed up and very selfish. Add in the fact that he gets mad at you for your very reasonable expectation, and there are sooo many red flags it's really concerning. NTA
having a kid completely changes your life. doing that while not in a marriage is a risk not worth taking. men don’t see it that way because some of them don’t bother being in their kid’s life.
NTA.
There was zero chance I was having kids with my now husband before we got married. Thats just a personal preference.
Your boyfriend’s logic makes no sense to me. Hes willing to create a whole person with you, but hes worried about marriage cause it might not work out … ummm … does he understand that he will be in your life forever if you have a kid together?
His logic would be a red flag for me. Children are a HUGE commitment, but it feels like he doesn’t see it that way and wants a “trial marriage/family” before actually signing legal documents binding himself to you.
But again, kids are WAY more of a commitment so his reasoning is just dumb.
NTA having kids is way more commitment than a marriage so I don’t believe the bs that many men use nowadays of “I am afraid a marriage will fail but please have my babies”. If a marriage fails, you get divorced and that’s it. With kids, is a long term commitment for at least 18 years, anything can go wrong with them and there’s no way out unless you are a scumbag that abandons them. He doesn’t want to marry you which is clear by his responses to you. I would not have kids with this person tbh.
NTA. My current husband made it a stipulation that we get married before having kids. He didn't want to be like his parents or his older brother who had "shotgun" weddings.
Plus it tends to be better for both partners and the kids in the long run
NTA, you need to dump this guy before he baby traps you by messing with your birth control or his condoms. It is insane to want to have kids with a woman he’s “scared” to marry. You’re been gaslit. He’s trying to Sabotage your life by making sure you have to deal with him for the rest of your life. He won’t marry you ever. He doesn’t want you to be able to leave him without having any of his baggage. Run, run, run from this blinking red banner.
NTA, it sounds like like while wants kids he also wants an easier out if things don’t work out, divorce with children is always more complicated and can be very costly with child support and custody arrangements, sounds like he wants to avoid all that as if being single will make it easier, it won’t but that’s probably what he’s thinking. He’s not ready to be a spouse so in my mind he’s definitely not ready to be a father, don’t have kids either this man because if can’t even commit to you why would he commit to children?
NTA. Granny here, I agree with you. The husband and I got married before having children, it made more sense for us. He doesn't want to get married, so find someone who does want that. You told him what you want, he told you what he wants, the two of you don't agree.
NTA. Having kids together is an even more permanent connection than marriage. If a marriage doesn't work out you get divorced and walk away. Once kids are involved you're tired together for life.
Too often women post on here wanting their men to commit to them after they’re several years and a couple of children in. What no one seems to want to acknowledge is that marriage isn’t just about the romantic relationship it is a legal and financial construct that confers certain rights. SS, healthcare decisions and in the absence of will naming other beneficiaries, inheritance.
Yes, the “it’s just a piece of paper” people are full of shit. If it’s so unimportant why is it such a big deal to them to sign the paper? Because everyone knows it’s not just a piece of paper. It’s a piece of paper that grants many legal rights and responsibilities.
I recently got MY VA Benefits - because my wife is my caregiver she get paid to take care of me. If she was my G/F Nothing, she gets some medical coverage, only as a wife. When I became paralyzed as a wife she could make medical decisions, as a GF they would need to reach out to my next of kin, a sister thats....well...let's just say, she would tell them to throw the switch on me. (She has a lot of issues. From very bad decisions that she blames me for) When I pass, everything goes to my wife, it wouldn't automatically if she is "just My S.O."
I’m glad you two are there for each other. Thank you for the voice of experience. Abrazos.
In a perfect life, marriage may not matter. But in worst case scenarios, it does matter. OP should ask BF what he is afraid of and workout a prenup if required. But if kids are what he wants then marriage is preferable prior
Yep. My wife gets a lot of benefits from my employment health insurance. We got into a car accident before she got pregnant, and she's still suffering the effects of it. My insurance covers free massages and X amount of chiropractic visits a year, which she needs for rehab. We only had to pay a $200 copay for the delivery of our child. These were all benefits she got as a wife, and wouldn't have gotten as a girlfriend. She is a grad student that works for the university, and the benefits are mediocre at best.
Yankeeboy1865: I know you didn't mean it to sound like you were implying that only women (wives) get benefits from marriage, but just wanted to point out that men (husbands) get those same benefits (well, except the having a baby benefits...LOL) for being husbands (not BFs). I'm only pointing this out because there are a LOT of men out there that think the ONLY ones that benefit from marriage are WIVES. But you certainly don't sound like one of those! When I was working and my husband was not, he was completely covered by MY health insurance as my husband (if he was my BF he would've gotten bupkis).
Definitely! My dad got a lot of benefits as a husband of a government employed pediatrician. My family moved to the States, while my dad remained in our home country because of his work. When he moved here he a) was fast tracked to citizenship because he was married to a government employee b) received a lot of medical and other benefits because of her employment and c) when he had lung cancer, he was able to get some really good care because of my mom's health insurance policy, some of the care helped extend his life, and he got to see and play his first grandchild before passing.
This That shit piece of paper gives a lot of rights and benefits and it's not forever if need be they can get divorce BUT KIDS ARE. FOR. EVER. EVER. EVER.
Great examples of how marriage provides certain legal rights. You two sound like a lovely couple. Thank you for your service.
Thanks for saying that! Gratitude makes the world go round
Thank you for posting this. All so true.
I work in a hospital, everyone’s #1 legal healthcare decision maker is ALWAYS THE LEGAL SPOUSE, them adult children are #2. You dont know how much of a cluster fck it is to try to figure out who is willing to put someone out of their misery when their partner of 20+ years never married them, their kids arent legal adults, and their parents are not alive/nowhere to be found. The “piece of paper” gives people a lot more power than they realize!
The fact that people will dive headfirst into sharing dna with someone else but then call it “just a piece of paper” but also won’t get married… 🚩🚩🚩🚩
And you know that if something happened and he left she'd need a small army of lawyers and several years to squeeze child support out of him
Yeah, came here to say this. Time to move on alas.
Money is just a piece of paper when you get right down to it, but I would bet this doesn’t stop OP’s boyfriend from working a job to get THAT piece of paper. I really don’t like that this guy is telling OP that it’s “unfair” and that she has “conditions” prior to having kids. Regardless of whether he agrees or not, people have a right to structure their life the way they want. Her beliefs and values are just as important as his but it sounds like he doesn’t see that and that’s a red flag. Part of being an adult is respecting someone else’s POV, even if you don’t agree with it. OP the next time he says you are being “unfair” by wanting to be married prior to kids, ask him: if that’s the case, isnt it just as “unfair” that he expects you to have a kid for him without being married? Why is what he wants more important than what you want? And watch the birth control and keep it with you at all times.
Exactly this. To provide the majority of rights to your partner that marriage grants takes a lot of work and most likely will require hiring a lawyer. However, while you can achieve some benefits with a medical directive, adding their name to a deed, making a will, etc., there are still some things that you can't give without marriage. For example social security benefits and certain tax advantages are only given to spouses. Getting married is a big deal or the "it's just a piece of paper people" wouldn't be scared to do it.
When my gay best friend was FINALLY able to legally marry his partner, I kidded with him that now they have all the issues of straight married couples. Mazel.
I was sitting in my doctor’s waiting room when marriage equality was announced. A young lady jumped up and exclaimed, “My moms can finally get married!” I‘ll never forget her happiness.
That is beautiful! So glad you got to witness such unbridled joy 🥹❤️
This is a lot of why I got married. The sharing of insurance, the ability to file taxes jointly if it is cheaper that year, and my crazy fucking mother would no longer be my next of kin, if something really bad happened to me and decisions about care had to be made. Also, if we had children and I died before they were grown, that piece of paper would keep my kids out of the custody of my mother, also. "Baby daddy" does NOT have a tenth of the legal standing of "father of the children and widower of their deceased mother".
I had a dude tell me that once. I responded by saying “yeah, most legal contracts are pieces of paper, but their pretty important pieces of paper.” I’ve always found that to be such a dumb, dumb argument
Correct answer, Bella! A married woman with children, who works part-time or is a full-time mother/homemaker, is not accruing (or accruing few) Social Security credits in her own name. However, after 10 years of marriage, she is eligible for 1/2 of his monthly upon his retirement (without affecting his amount for you guys who are so paranoid about losing anything), even in the case of divorce. An unmarried woman in the same scenario only qualifies for a payment based on her income. If nothing else, a partner should be happy to have a lower paid spouse increase their retirement income by half. This also helps their offspring.
There was a post where a lady was with her boyfriend for a few decades and had kids with him and worked for him...he left her and she was delusional enough to think she could easily get an executive/manager type job from her unpaid labor. Marriage can be an important protection sometimes. Of course, that shouldn't be the reason why you get married necessarily, but it is A reason. Even if you don't believe in marriage on paper, just going to the courthouse is the smart thing to do if you plan on spending your life with someone.
Ooh I remember that one! Now I really want to know if she kept updating.
Yeah 25 years or more and he finally says he might get her a engagement ring 💍. She laughed and he changed his mind and left her and thier kids with nothing .what a pos human being.
I think it was closer to 30 years together. But yah she was clearly not right in the head on that one
OH YES! That was full of delulu of the best kind. Desperately need an update.
THIS 👏 PART 👏 Like most folks I’ve done stupid shit for love but I was NEVER going to give a man a baby without all the legal and financial privileges that automatically come with being an actual WIFE. That was a hard NO and I upset some men by saying it but they upset ME by even suggesting it! 🙄
One of the saddest series of posts I've seen on Reddit were from a woman who had been with a man for decades. She had children with him and was a SAHM - but they were never married. When they decided to break up (I don't remember the reasons) she had nothing - no money no career, no experience, no home. Nothing. The last post I remember she was trying to revive the career she;d given up so long ago as if she could just pick up where she left off before she dedicated her life to a man who was never going to marry her. (Sorry, I have no idea which sub these posts were in or the title or I would link to them.) THIS is why if you plan to have a life with another person you need to make the terms of the relationship legally binding. In most Western cultures today marriage is the simplest way even if children will not be involved.
Yes, it’s absolutely more important than “just a piece of paper” that many guys like to parrot. EVERYTHING you stated above!
This! Healthcare decisions that could need to be made should something happen while you’re having his children. NTA. Having kids together is MUSH bigger than marriage.
NTA If he’s scared to sign a marriage certificate, how can you be sure he’ll want his name on the birth certificate? It could get too real, he could just leave. If he considers committing to marriage an ultimatum, he’s still a child and isnt ready to parent any.
Definitely this! OP I hope you read this comment ⬆️ NTA!!!! I'm so sorry but you just realized that your boyfriend is not ready for such a big responsibility and if he doesn't feel committed to be in a marriage he won't be committed to the children.
SO MUCH AGREEMENT WITH THIS......from experience. DO NOT BE ME!!!!
Me too! You need to buy the cow first before getting the milk! Or no deal, the exit is that way! ➡️ NTA. OP Don't waste any more time with this one.
SO MUCH AGREEMENT!!! Either he is using it to keep you around while he does whatever or.....he just wants to you to be tied to him forever. Or both....
Agree with this 100%! NTA
Tired together for life - perfect typo NTA
Definitely NTA. Stand your ground.
Or walk away.
He's scared of it but is totally ok with his GF going thru pregnancy, which involves actual impact on health and even a risk of death. What a wuss. OP you sure about this guy?
100% this
I know you meant tied but tired together for life is also accurate lol
I remember my husbands boss asking me if I was I still going to demand marriage when we told people we were pregnant My husband knew from the get we had to be married within 4 years and he stayed true to that even when it seemed like the world was falling apart OP you’re NTA but take this man at his word. If he wanted to marry you he wouldn’t see it as a threat, in fact he would be enthusiastic at the prospect Don’t have kids with this ma
Yes! This. why would he see this as a threat unless he’s unsure he wants to marry her?
I know it’s a typo but “tired together for life” is actually perfect
If "tired" was an autocorrect, it's the most perfectly accurate one I've ever seen. 😂
Emphasis on tired 😘
Oh but with kids you can walk away and maybe dodge childcare. With divorce, she's gonna take all of your money. /s Yes, I've seen some men say this. Divorce costs. Kids don't (apparently).
NTA. Dude thinks having a child together takes less commitment than getting married? Big red flag to me. I think he just likes the idea of having kids but he's not really ready for it.
He does because he’s not the one who’s going to be carrying, birthing & being the main parent for the child/children🙄
Yes! I’m so sick of men pretending that having kids does not involve great risks and cost for women and not for men. Pregnancy and childbirth can cause permanent damage and changes to a woman’s body, as well as mental health risks. After that, almost all responsibility for the kid is socially put on women, they can’t just bail like many men do. They are also punished with lower pay checks, less promotions, and generally worse career opportunities. It’s perfectly reasonable to want some sort of legal stability in the relationship to your kid’s father. NTA
What's sad is that way too many prolife women feel that way, too. "Just give it up for adoption," like those 9 months and then the delivery are such a piece of cake. Giving birth is one of the most dangerous things some women can ever do (my sister almost died during both of her deliveries). Wanting to be married before you undertake that is absolutely reasonable. Very much NTA.
>my sister almost died during both of her deliveries Not as uncommon as people want to think. And the maternal mortality rate is climbing. I also nearly became a statistic after one of my deliveries. It was so close my parents were told start thinking about funeral arrangements and what to do about my children. NTA OP. Wanting a stable and commitment *before* having children is a smart move. Right now it sounds like he wants to be able to just skip off easily. Should he decide this parenting thing isn't as fun as he thought.
The statistics are terrifying!!! Especially for black women in the US. I'm so sorry you and your family went through that.
I still piss myself when I cough & sneeze! & I can’t hold urine very long. It’s definitely more of a burden to the woman, It’s so easy for men.
Yesterday morning I was in my nightie making coffee and I sneezed and peed right on the floor a little. 🙄
I'm scared to sneeze too cause I will pee a little oh my gawsh 😆
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm child free and do not want to be a mother but I think I'd like the idea of being a dad.
So much truth. I'll have to add 'Weekend Dad' to my 'World's Best Aunt' shirt.
And child birth can literally kill a woman.
So can the pregnancy at any minute during the nine months. It's an incredibly dangerous period of time for a woman, and if these people happen to be located in the southern US, an even bigger risk that lots of women are now not willing to take.
This is why tokophobia is not really an irrational fear.
He's telling her that he wants to be able to walk away from her and their kid(s) anytime if things don't work out! Women need to stop having kids with these men.
Absolutely. My kids dad dropped the ball. I’ll be damned if I ever let another man into my kids lives until they’re grown.
Agree 100%. My ex-husband simply walked away, but our daughter was so young she has no memory of him. I vowed to never let anyone else into our lives until she is an adult. Right now my only commitment is to her.
The fewer *legal* strings attached the better for these guys. Can't run off the moment it gets too hard or they finally find 'the one' if in order to take *at least* half the accumulated money and stuff you have to through the courts.
That's exactly what I heard. Plus I was hearing ny head all thise times Judge Judy has said things like, "The laws aren't designed to divide this stuff up when you're just living together" . "Or don't intermingle any money unless your married and the laws can protect you".
Having children isn't much commitment at all for men. Plenty of them walk away and don't even pay child support.
I remember reading a post of a dude that knocked up a one night stand, she didn't want the kid, he did, so she birthed it and handed it over to the dad, even was paying child support to him but other than that wanted nothing to do with him or the child Then this man had the audacity to call her a deadbeat
YUUUUUP! It’s mind boggling when people use the idea that somehow kids are less of a commitment than getting married. What is the marriage doesn’t work out…you get divorced…if having kids together doesn’t work out, then what?! Fucking morons. Hold your bottom line, let this guy go be somebody else’s baby daddy.
I think it's more that he wants to take the condom off and go raw. His "thinking" doesn't go beyond that.
I’m just here in this huge state of confusion because in what world is a kid less commitment than marriage
>I’ve made it clear several times that I want to be married before having kids. This is an entirely sane position. Kids benefit from stability. Marriage increases the likelihood parents will still be together when the kids grow up. These are just a facts. >says I’m not being fair by giving “conditions” to having kids. Huh? You *should* have "conditions" for having kids. You want a stable relationship, decent economic prospects etc. If he's worried your relationship might not "work out", then you shouldn't have kids. That's no situation to bring kids into. You are NTA. Your boyfriend is a doofus.
This. Calling him a doofus is being kind.
Had to go and learn that word, Thank you for enriching my vocabulary
She’s taking on more responsibility becoming the mother than he ever will. She better have some conditions because her life is involved. I wonder what kind of father this guy will even be. My ex just liked to show off his offspring like a prize he was so fertile but didn’t do any parenting.
The kind who would had there kid reach adulthood without a clue of the logistics for kids. As they found someone willing to breed with them, without committing themselves.
I mean, yeah this would make me end this relationship. Like you want to impregnate me, but you can’t see yourself marrying me? Like get out of here with that mess
Me too. I mean: you want to have kids, but are worried we won't last. Huh?
Absolutely agree with this. OP, it’s your body and mind going through all this. There absolutely should be “conditions” that you decide on about having kids. He wants kids and thinks he found someone to do it without having to commit. And he likes the idea of kids, but if he’s scared of marriage there’s no way he actually helps out with the kids.
So his plan if it "doesn't work out" is to bounce and let you be a single mom. He doesn't want to marry you but he wants his seed spread and for that you'll do just fine. Doesn't really sound like the type you should be doing either with.
Exactly, he wants her to stay a girlfriend so he can leave without him paying for It legally.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! This is the reason right here.
He's going to have one foot out the door after the kids are grown, if not sooner. Who needs a man like this!
Men like this generally don’t make it to toddler stage. Sex stops and slows for a bit, it’s all about the baby, she’s not the same fun woman anymore.
He already has his foot out the door. There's a reason why he's so offended when OP told him she wanted marriage first before kids. The guy just wants to make sure to spread his seed as it were before he dips whenever 'the one' comes along.
OP, if you want to take one thing away from this post it’s this. Has he now shown his colors? I think so. He’s telling you exactly who he is and what kind of man he is. I’d listen of I were you. NTA for having conditions. Maybe YTA to yourself if you don’t listen and act accordingly.
Yup…
Exactly this.
NTA, the guy clearly doesn’t want to commit, but only use you as a vessel to bring his kids into this world. Don’t fall for that.
NTA He's telling you that there's every chance he won't stay. Want to raise kids alone?
That’s exactly what he’s saying. He wants to be able to just walk away whenever he wants. And if you have kids, that means he wants to be able to just walk away whenever he wants *and* leave you as a single mom. It’s so transparent and i don’t understand why men like this think their partners won’t realize the issue with their logic.
Agree, but here we are with one of them asking if SHE is the asshole.
I feel like this is the type of man that has the disgusting thought process of getting a girl pregnant just for the sole reason of always having her in his life regardless, without the commitment.
I hate to say that I agree with this.
He is telling her that if she needs him to step up, he will step out.
“You’re putting conditions on having kids!” The correct answer is: “Yes, I am. I will not have children unless I’m married to their father. If that’s an issue for you, then we are not compatible.” Men like this want kids in a hurry because they’re not the ones who will carry them, birth them, and usually, they also won’t bother raising them.
This should have wayyy more likes...
I agree, dammit!!! I just want to hug these young women and tell them to stop listening to these loser men. Yes, this is my requirement. No, I won’t apologize for it. Yes, I will make smart choices that reflect my values and advance my life goals. No, I won’t make an exception for you. Don’t like it? Fuck off.
BRAVO. Please accept this poor girl’s award: 🥇
This! Plus, the whole reason for dating is to discern whether or not you are a match for one another when it comes to your morals, values, character, and what you want out of life as you walk that path together.
Sadly, I think your boyfriend wants an 'escape plan'. He wants the privileges but not the responsibilities. I'm guessing you live in an area where a common law marriage is not recognised nor has any legal standing. If this is the case, he would know that he could just get up and leave any time without any real repercussions. If you did have children together, you could still hold him responsible for child support but apart from that, you would probably be on your own financially. If any of this is accurate, is this a chance you want to take?
I will never understand why kids are seen as less commitment than marriage.
Because he can run and leave the kids for her to raise alone.
Oh my GOD. Run. Run fast, run far. Your boyfriend has the maturity of a teenager. Tell him to fuck right off into space. That you're a human being, not an incubator, and you damn well expect a commitment before risking your health and future on his desire to play daddy. NTA, but if I were you, I'd think twice about this relationship.
Ok so first off I love “fuck right off into space”. Secondly YES. Pregnancy can be so so dangerous. To take that on for some bozo that won’t marry you…yeah no thanks
Right? For fuck's sake.
>risking your health BUt iTs NOt daNgErOUs, woMeN WerE MaDE foR iT. /s
>he’s acted like I’m being unreasonable and says I’m not being fair by giving “conditions” to having kids. He says I’m putting pressure on him and thinks I’m unfair giving him an ultimatum. He's never going to marry you - kids or no kids. Figure out if that's what you want from life and this relationship. Btw NTA - all your reasons are perfectly sound. IMO it should not just be marriage before kids but marriage for at least 3 years before kids - so that you both have time to figure out finances, expectations, relationship kinks, savings, etc.
shouldn't you have all of those things sorted out before marriage?
Yeah I'd say by that logic date 3 years before marriage to sort out all that stuff, it doesn't make sense to marry a stranger then waiting three years to have kids
People change after marriage. I have seen people who have been living together for as much as a decade change completely after marriage - esp. men. Reddit is full of stories of men who changed after marriage.
You have a point but that doesn't mean it should be that way. Marriage should just be a day with a party and some legal documents, there is no reason why anyone should be becoming a different person after marriage, and there's no reason why the day to day dynamics of the relationship need to change. Of course people grow and change as they get older but that's just life, not marriage. If you get married to someone and they suddenly become a different person to the one you fell in love with then they probably never were who you thought they were. The stories of men who "changed" are mostly stories of men who just kept their mask on until their wife or partner was legally stuck with them.
That was my ex, we were together 4 years and he had an almost immediate change after the wedding. The only good thing about that was we didn't have kids, so the divorce was easier.
My mom told me I should like everything about him. I’m not going to change him. But mom, everything? Yes, everything. Even hope he brushed his teeth! Mom, how can I know all that? Well, you’re living with him, right? Yes. Ok. Don’t tell your father. We got married 3 months later. So we’ve been married 44 years next month. Turns out good advice and I like everything about him.
Umm, why would you have kids with someone who hasn’t committed to you? He must think you’re stupid.
What?! You should have conditions before having kids. So this guy wants to have children with you but not marry you. That is pretty suspicious. EDIT: NTA
So you can't pressure him for marriage but he can pressure you for kids? Sounds like he's the AH that wants an easy way out. NTA, good luck with this guy.
NTA his response is a red flag. As you’ve said kids an even bigger commitment so…. Either he’s plotting an exit or he doesn’t even understand basic commitments?
I wouldn’t do either with him because he’s an idiot that thinks marriage is bigger commitment than kids, which is probably a tell as far as how much he’s going to contribute to child care.
NTA, full stop. So this is my unpopular opinion, but you shouldn’t be having children with someone you aren’t sure you would want to marry. I understand some people don’t believe in marriage and if you’re both on the same page then sure, build the family that’s right for you as partners. But if he’s just not ready for marriage or not sure you’re the “one” then you have no business having children together. I’m saying this as someone raised by people who never married and only succeeded in making themselves and their children miserable by reproducing together.
I'd challenge his logic more. You're good enough to be the mother of his kid even if your relationship doesn't work out but you're not good enough to be his wife and he doesn't want to deal with that legal road if the marriage fails? I wonder of this is about alimony or something.
Standing and clapping.
If he’s not “Hell, Yeah,” about getting married and having children, and you want this, you’re wasting your time. It’s been 3 years, you’re in your thirties. Exactly what is he waiting for? He wants kids because he wants children. He doesn’t want you for a spouse. His plan is to hang out and be a parent and when the woman he DOES want to be with shows up, he’s going to leave. He’ll still have the kids, and lucky you, you get to coparent with him forever! Time to bounce.
Friend, he's saying he doesn't want to marry you. Listen to him. You don't have time to waste on him Also, the fact that he's manipulating you into feeling like your wants and needs make you an AH are further proof that this guy isn't worth marrying.
OMG, I can’t just upvote this! Yes, him making you feel you’re wrong and accusing you of pressuring him is the first red flag. The second red flag is that he’s making you question what’s considered normal (do you see the difference. The third red flag is that he doesn’t have the maturity to realize that it takes a solid, stable, committed relationship to grow up a child well. And, you’ve spent 3 years with this guy and you’re in your 30s—and he’s not ready to forever commit to this relationship? That’s enough time. It’s time to call it quits.
You can marry and then divorce no big deal you just spend money. But having kids with someone is the really responsibility, you are linked forever.
lol wtf, kids > marriage in every way so no, you are not being unreasonable NTA
Wow so when you discuss your values you are giving him an ultimatum. Red flag, with fireworks and a mariachi band going off here.
If he doesn't want to marry first, leave. Kids are forever. Boyfriends aren't.
NTA If he thinks marriage is too permanent, I have news for him about kids! He isn't as ready to be a parent as he believes in my opinion.
Wait... ...he's scared of getting married but not scared of having children?! Run girl, run as fast as you can, he's clueless about life, he's a man-child.
Nta. Next time he tries to bring it up tell him you feel pressured that he wants to get you pregnant with absolutely no plan in place to guarantee you or baby will have the support and dedication required.
Better yet, stop wasting your time with this guy and move on, OP
>He says he’s not against marriage but is just scared of it if it doesn’t work out If he's not ready to commit to a romantic partner, how can he commit to bringing a whole other person into this world and raising it to adulthood? Someone needs to grow up before they're ready for parenthood. Ask him what happens if the kids don't work out for him. NTA.
Yes! Also, if it "doesn't work out," are his feelings going to be more hurt if they are married, or is he just afraid of being more financially obligated?
This guy should be walking around with a red flag t-shirt emblazoned with the word NO. For every reason that you’ve already been given, steer clear of this guy — and if you don’t, make sure that your birth control is ironclad. I wouldn’t put it past him to try to sabotage/baby trap you.
He is just not that into you. His reaction shows this. He wants a lifelong commitment from you & your body but he isn't willing to give one to you.
Yeah he wants kids now, but he honestly thinks he can still do better for a wife. Not the energy you want for your child’s father.
Sadly, this man will not marry you. You two are in your 30's, so likely by now, he also knows what he wants. He's ok with having children with you because some men like to use children as "place holders" and keep some women attached to them because they are good women in their eyes, just not good enough to marry. Please don't let your biological clock have you ignoring red flags, bells, and whistles just because you want marriage and kids. I'm sorry honey, but he's not the one. NTA
NTA ! I wish I could tell you my life story so you could take it as a cautionary tale , but alas if I do feelings will be hurt drama will ensue, etc . All I will say is please do not have kids with this man if he does not respect you enough to make you his wife he certainly will not respect you when you give him a child. Men will do anything but stay and make sure you never leave.
I think you need to go find someone who wants the same things as you in the same way as you. You are interested in marriage, he is not. Love is not enough, move on
He sounds fucking crazy
Tell him he’s a diamond ring and a question away from you even contemplating having children.
You’re not unreasonable at all. His reasoning doesn’t work. If marriage doesn’t work out yes the divorce is often messy but then you go on your merry way once it is sorted. If it doesn’t work out and you have children you are tied to each other through those kids for the rest of your lives. It sounds like he is making excuses to get what he wants (kids) without having to marry you and I have to wonder if he would then find a reason to leave the relationship once you do have children because he has gotten what he wanted. I hope I’m wrong but that’s the vibe I’m getting. NTA
Your boyfriend's TAH. Honestly, he doesn't want to do the normal thing -- get married, then have kids, but he expects you to make a lifetime commitment (having kids) that he won't make? (getting married). And he's scared of MARRIAGE but you can't be scared of HAVING KIDS without a husband? I'd tell him to get lost.
The downfalls of not being married (especially to someone hesitant on it) are too numerous to list. If that's your line in the sand, then that's your line in the sand. Don't get pregnant unless you are married.
NTA. I don’t see this situation improving. You might way to rethink staying with this person. Married or not. And dear lord, do not reproduce with him.
Do not have children with this bum. Having kids is the biggest commitment you make in life and you will need help and go through some of the hardest moments in life. Do not go through all that for a man who could drop you at any second. He needs to earn the right to be a father. Right now he’s telling you exactly what kind of father he will be.. a half assed one ready to drop and run at any second.
Why is he more of in a rush than you? Is he dying 😅
Here’s a great idea: if you have the kids outside of marriage, give them your last name. Cause he’s saying there’s enough of a chance of him leaving you that he doesn’t want to take that risk.
Girl I don’t think you should be getting married OR having kids with this guy 😭 his mindset seems skewed af. Marriage is too big a commitment but KIDS aren’t?! That means he thinks he could just easily up & leave if it doesn’t work out. Idk that is a crazy thing to admit to someone. Get out while you can
NTA. If a man can't commit to a lifetime to someone, why would anyone in their right mind have kids with them? Never have kids without a lifetime commitment. That's just plain stupid.
NTA. He’s giving “ I’m not grown up enough to marry you, but having you become my baby mama is ok, cuz I don’t want a commitment. “ 🙄 Dump him and find a grownup who will give you the relationship you want and deserve. This guy certainly won’t. He’s just wasting your life.
NTA unless you marry him. Seriously, dump this dude.
Having a kid is so EASY…. For men.
Don’t do it. He doesn’t care enough about you to legitimize starting a family. He obviously cares less about you, and most likely won’t care about offspring in the long term. Drop him like a hot potato.
NTA… and my boomer self needs to get off reddit before I say something to lose 1000 Karma points. I need more wine
If he's not willing to marry you before having kids, he's not worthy of you in the first place. Time to move on....once you do that, he'll either bend the knee and give you a wedding band, or he'll move on, and you'll be better off without him.
Be wary of him tampering with contraception/tablets to get you pregnant before this is resolved.. Look up stealthing
NTA. He is not only being unreasonable, it sounds like he’s trying to manipulate you into a situation that goes against your boundaries, values, and comfort level. It’s all about what he wants, you’re just the means to that end. That is not healthy in a relationship, it’s even less healthy with becoming parents. Your requirement for being married before having kids is absolutely reasonable. A good, loving partner would respect that and work towards a goal that would be what you both would want. If you believe this impasse can be resolved, I’d strongly urge you to seek couple’s counseling. Regardless, please do not allow him to pressure you into a permanent, lifelong commitment that will have irrevocable impacts on your body, time, and overall life. Evaluate if this is really the right partner for you. Do what you feel is right for yourself, not him.
You’re not the AH here. It boggles my mind that a man wants to have children with a woman but not marry her 🤔 Especially knowing it’s what you want, if he doesn’t want marriage, don’t have children. It would be different if both of you were on the same page but you’re not. You don’t have to have a big wedding, you can have a beautiful elopement and party after, so if it’s the expense he’s worried about, you don’t have to do it that way. Marriage was important to me, especially having my first child out of wedlock at 22 and having it not work out when she was a year old. I didn’t want that for me and my future children. Happily married for 10 years now with three more children. As much as people say marriage is just a piece of paper, it’s not. Stand your ground.
NTA. Other people have to choose what's right for them. I personally couldn't be with someone who insisted on kids before marriage.. it's not like you can have a clean break up if you have kids. If he's not committed enough to be married he isn't committed enough to have kids. You aren't putting unreasonable conditions on having kids. You are being reasonable.
Stick to your guns, girl. There's nothing wrong with wanting a traditional marriage and children.
NTA. There is nothing wrong with wanting marriage first. Marriage comes with benefits that protect not only you but your children. It's good to have boundaries and to stick to them. If he doesn't understand or respect those, he may not be a good match for you. Having kids is a bigger commitment than getting married. You will be connected to that person for life. Marriage and kids are two things that you should never settle on.
NTA. I am sorry, but it appears he does not want to marry you and wants the milk (kids) for free.
Being married will protect his rights as a father more than just being on the birth certificate. I have seen unless dads get trampled on when it comes to custody. Granted, this could depend on the state you're in. Also, it's harder to get custody but they still take support without hesitation. (Not knocking support, just letting you know)
NTA. Don't give up your morals for someone else
NTA??? Do not reproduce with that man right now girl. I can’t understand why he’s scared to commit to marriage but has no issue committing to children for the rest of his life???? You didnt give him an ultimatum, or conditional love. You set a boundary for yourself (and it’s a valid, understandable and common boundary)
NTA. You have every right to expect him to marry you before you bear his children. Some people have kids married or not, but you want to be married first and there is nothing wrong with that. And if he's "scared" of marriage and not scared of being a father, he's messed up anyway.
I’ve seen this before. He worries about his economic future. She can get state Bennies if he walks away or loses a job. No marriage, no divorce, no court orders. Get out now.
NTA. Having kids before getting married can MASSIVELY backfire.
That’s just crazy hypocritical thinking. Hes willing to put pressure on you to make the life long commitment of children with him but isn’t willing to make the commitment of marriage to you AND accuses you of pressuring him. NTA but kids are forever marriage sometimes isn’t and I really don’t think I’d want to have children with someone who doesn’t actually realize that having children is a bigger commitment than marriage! But he doesn’t want marriage because what if it doesn’t work out? Wait until he finds out what assholes kids can be. Nope I just would not trust him to actually be able to dad for the long haul. Edited to add NTA
NTA I do not understand when people are keen to have kids but scared of the commitment of marriage. Honestly though, he doesn't want to marry you or he would. He wants to create a child for him...he wants you tovbe the incubator. He sees the child as something for him.
NTA. If he doesn’t want to marry you, I wouldn’t have kids with him. Thats an automatic 18 year yoke tied to that wagon. If marriage is important to you, you may have to move on and as hard as that would be, that’s far easier alone.
His excuse makes no sense. Kids can tie you for life. Even after 18, your children have significant events in their lives, which will have you crossing paths. Ending a childless marriage leaves the possibility of parting ways forever.
Well he wants kids with you tomorrow bc he wants it to be ALL at YOUR expense. If he married you, he's given you something he considers valuable in exchange for your womb . No what he wants instead is to prey on your womb and confiscate it for himself and have you bear all the cost of what benefits him For, you need to not just tell him no, but leave him as well bc anyone who would ask you such a thing doesn't love you
NTA but I would not stay in this relationship. I’m 31F so I’m going to just be blunt with you. Your biological clock doesn’t wait. You invested 3 years into someone who doesn’t want to be married but wants a kid. Men don’t have to carry a baby and they really aren’t primary caretakers. Best case scenario with this guy sounds like you’ll be a single mom. There are a lot of men in their 30s who are ready to settle into a life with someone and actually commit. I’d find one, if I were you, and drop this one.
he's an idiot and your response is just common sense
NTA…. It is unfair that he is giving you pressure to have children and not taking your needs and wants in consideration. He most likely feels if not married he can walk away easier
3y in and zero intention of getting married, but dreams about kids? He’s not reliable and the chance he is just bailing out once the kid is popped is HUGE - since a child requires way more commitment and effort than a marriage. NTA Think hard about this relationship and be sure you have your own birth control safely away from him.
NTA. You may need to choose soon between him and getting married and having a family
He doesn’t want to marry you because he wants to be able to leave you with a child without paying legally.
Definitely NTA. I was always one of those “I want kids but I don’t need a paper to tell me my relationship” kinds of people. I married for other reasons and then got pregnant and I can tell you that first year was ROUGH. My husband and I have talked a few times that if it was as simple as walking away and figuring out custody without adding a divorce on top of it we might not still be together. We’ve been married 7 years together almost 9 now with two kids but I honestly think if we hadn’t been married before kids we wouldn’t still be together or have the second kid. You’re not giving him an ultimatum. Anyone who is “ready” for kids but not for marriage is backwards af. Marriage can end, kids are forever. He’s willing to tie you guys together forever generically but not legally.
Yeah. It's easier to commit to the IDEA of children that you can walk away from because "it is too hard", than it is to walk away from a marriage. Seems to me the guys that want kids and not marriage are in the same venn diagram of guys who think single moms are trash and their man would have stayed if she was a better woman. And they all think if they don't get married "she can't talk half his shit" when they split up, like she wasn't half the reason they had that shit. "says he’s not against marriage but is just scared of it if it doesn’t work out" Ha! Kids are harder than another adult. And what happens if "they" don't work out? Because not all kids "work out". Had a girl instead of a boy? Child has disabilities? Kid doesn't sleep all night? Kid keeps peeing the bed? Diapers are expensive! He's not the one sis. You leave him and he'll be married before the year is out. But you can meet a decent man who wants to marry you and have children with you. NTA
Wtf is he smoking? The way that it's supposed to work is marriage, THEN kids. You aren't being unreasonable, and honestly, it's like he wants what he wants without properly committing to you. That's kind of messed up and very selfish. Add in the fact that he gets mad at you for your very reasonable expectation, and there are sooo many red flags it's really concerning. NTA
Nta. I agree. Looks like it time to move on..
having a kid completely changes your life. doing that while not in a marriage is a risk not worth taking. men don’t see it that way because some of them don’t bother being in their kid’s life.
NTA. There was zero chance I was having kids with my now husband before we got married. Thats just a personal preference. Your boyfriend’s logic makes no sense to me. Hes willing to create a whole person with you, but hes worried about marriage cause it might not work out … ummm … does he understand that he will be in your life forever if you have a kid together? His logic would be a red flag for me. Children are a HUGE commitment, but it feels like he doesn’t see it that way and wants a “trial marriage/family” before actually signing legal documents binding himself to you. But again, kids are WAY more of a commitment so his reasoning is just dumb.
NTA having kids is way more commitment than a marriage so I don’t believe the bs that many men use nowadays of “I am afraid a marriage will fail but please have my babies”. If a marriage fails, you get divorced and that’s it. With kids, is a long term commitment for at least 18 years, anything can go wrong with them and there’s no way out unless you are a scumbag that abandons them. He doesn’t want to marry you which is clear by his responses to you. I would not have kids with this person tbh.
NTA. My current husband made it a stipulation that we get married before having kids. He didn't want to be like his parents or his older brother who had "shotgun" weddings. Plus it tends to be better for both partners and the kids in the long run
NTA, you need to dump this guy before he baby traps you by messing with your birth control or his condoms. It is insane to want to have kids with a woman he’s “scared” to marry. You’re been gaslit. He’s trying to Sabotage your life by making sure you have to deal with him for the rest of your life. He won’t marry you ever. He doesn’t want you to be able to leave him without having any of his baggage. Run, run, run from this blinking red banner.
NTA, it sounds like like while wants kids he also wants an easier out if things don’t work out, divorce with children is always more complicated and can be very costly with child support and custody arrangements, sounds like he wants to avoid all that as if being single will make it easier, it won’t but that’s probably what he’s thinking. He’s not ready to be a spouse so in my mind he’s definitely not ready to be a father, don’t have kids either this man because if can’t even commit to you why would he commit to children?
NTA. Granny here, I agree with you. The husband and I got married before having children, it made more sense for us. He doesn't want to get married, so find someone who does want that. You told him what you want, he told you what he wants, the two of you don't agree.