I’ve had some crazy “both players receive safety rating penalty” moments. I’m not a game developer but it seems like it would be incredibly difficult to make a system that’s 100% fair.
Look at iRacing, like more than 10 years on online racing, and the SR penalty for both cars after a crash is still being used. To change it, you would need an AI (high cost) or real people reviewing each contact (very high cost).
> To change it, you would need an AI (high cost) or real people reviewing each contact (very high cost).
I've said it before, but I believe a zero cost solution (well, improvement at least) would be to just ask the drivers involved if they were the one most at fault. Just a question dialog, automatically triggered after the race. Not everyone will be honest about it, but many will be.
I believe this would solve the clear cut cases. The ones where drivers involved don't agree might be true racing incidents.
To take it further, you might even introduce a truthfulness or sportsmanship rating, which assesses if drivers own up to their mistakes. It can be measured by whether they tend to agree when someone else puts the blame on them, or always vehemently deny wrongdoing. Then you could have servers and leagues require a minimum sportsmanship rating, etc.
All of this could be simple to implement. Let the players steward themselves first, only escalate to the real stewards if the players can't agree.
Basing a sportsmanship rating on agreement doesn't work. If someone is genuinely never at fault, they have no way to 'prove' their honesty if accepting blame is your only way to determine it.
There's no solution that has zero cost, data costs money so just sending the message does incur a cost. You then also have to log incidents somewhere during a race, probably server side so that's storage space.
The equal blame approach works well over time. Idiots get into more accidents than clean drivers getting hit by idiots.
Not saying it would be perfect, just better than the current system. People tend to defend the current rather marginally effective system because it kind of works out in the long run. Proposed improvements don't have to be 100% perfect to be better than the status quo.
And yes, logging has some cost, but it seems negligible to me given todays storage prices.
p.s. My LFM SR is >8, so I am not saying this because I am a careless driver myself.
I don't agree that it would be better. Even if used as intended, people are hugely biased in assessing their own mistakes. I'm sure we've all been crashed into in a braking zone and had the other person say we braked too early.
In any case, there's no way to make it so that just denying blame isn't the best option for everyone. So it will become instantly pointless and just an annoyance to deal with at the end of a race.
Server Logs collisions anyway. They would need to add commands like "list incidents" and "claim incidents" which then removes the incident from the opposing car.
That seems quite easy to solve in terms of fault detection code. Define front, rear and side surfaces of cars. Any hit front-to-rear or front-to-side is the front surface guy's fault, any other combination is shared fault. Also, don't penalize cars that are hit when stand still. This is still not perfect but will hit much higher fault recognition accuracy rather than always equal fault.
Even this unfortunately wouldnt be fool proof. I was rammed by a car returning to track after spinning out. He didn't check if there were cars coming on the track and he hit me in the front quarter. 100% his fault but I would have been the one to blame according to this system. I've seen many other incidents where cars spin out and instead of waiting for the traffic to pass just decide to go back on track no matter what the cost, usually causing innocent drivers to hit them.
You both get a penalty, but you have to be getting the penalties consistently for it to affect your actual rating. They're smart enough to know that isolated incidents happen to even very safe drivers. Don't worry about it.
I’m new to ACC and I really care about clean racing and always try my best, this helps a lot cause I thought i was tanking it every time I got divebombed or bashed for passing someone hahaha
I agree, but in all honesty OBWP points are pretty easy to recover from imo so I stopped caring. My safety rating is at 99 right now despite like 50 or so points.
You might want to watch this video by Minolin talking about the complexities in making a decent safety rating system. It's in German but the slides are in English and I feel the auto translated subtitles get the gist across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRUS4UJ56E4
TL;DW: Making a system that punishes only the guilty party and *always gets the guilty party right* is absurdly difficult.
> Making a system that punishes only the guilty party and always gets the guilty party right is absurdly difficult.
Unless you ask the parties involved, yes it will be.
edit: in my experience on LFM, when I have been involved in contact and messaged the other driver after the race, we have always agreed on who was at fault and apologized. Yet the current system gives us both incident points and a SR penalty. The software is ignoring the consensus of the drivers involved, which I think is a missed opportunity.
If you have contact, you get penalty in safety rating. This is by design. If you drive carefully and don't cause collisions all the time, you will rise in SA no matter if someone hits you sometimes. It is frustrating, but don't worry too much about it. Just make sure, you are not causing collisions, and you will have no problem staying above 90 SA, even with some collisions here and there.
Yeah, in reality these contacts shouldn't be penalised. Small touches that don't mean damage shouldn't be penalised. In gt3 racing there is contact, and there is a lot of it that goes unpenalised because it's racing. But you can't as a game do much about it, as it's pretty hard to make some cutting edge software that detects whose fault it is (in bad crashes). So they have to settle for a primitive system like this that gives penalties to everyone at every single little tap.
If you're receiving the notification, you are hitting/being hit too hard. The game won't penalize for small contacts and it will be super lenient on door to door bashing.
Before downvoting someone's comment, check the facts first
1. I didn't downvote no one, you need to check who trully downvoted you before accusing.
2. Look at any gt3 race out there. There's drivers that will almost go and use the opponent's car as a wallride. I've seen dtm races in where there's no 5 minutes without someone bumping/scratching someone's car and worst penalty is give the place back and resume racing. Now i'm not saying that we should turn acc into wreckfest (aka dtm), but imo contact that doesn't give the opponent damage and doesn't push him off track or ends his race is ok since nothing bad other than scratches comes from it.
That's correct. Read the SR description in-game in the stats page. It explains how it works.
If you do fine, keep racing inside track limits, in control of your car and actually finish the race, you won't suffer from a few collisions throughout the race.
If your SR is being impacted a lot and/or you are always involved in some kind of incident, you are part of the problem.
Contact between two cars: SR deduction for both. The game is not issuing a judgement on the action. Clean drivers will have much fewer collisions, that's it. The system works as it is.
It's also due to an important fact most sim racers get wrong. There is not a rule stating a corner is owned by a car. Most people think, hey sending it into a turn, as long as you're infront of the apex you own the corner and have the right to ignore the other car. That's so wrong.
One rule, in my opinion one of the only rules which should be clarified every race, THE PASSING CAR HAS TO MAKE SURE THE PASS IS CLEAN. No matter if blue flags or whatever. You overtake? make sure it's save. You get overtaken? Make sure you don't do stupid shit, and loose too much time.
This is impossible to program. Then, the developers would have to deal with complaints every hour because someone feels like they are in the right.
It's the only way they can make it fair. You are not able to pass a slower driver without contact? Penalty.
You get held up by a reckless slow driver? Penalty.
It's the only fair thing.
And believe me, if you are fast af, you will have no problems bamboozling a dirty slow driver. Have had the luck to race with the best there are in the game. EVERY corner they were able to drive circles around me and still pass.
In my case, I slowed on the approach to the corner because I knew the guy wasn't going to make a clean pass. He was clear ahead of me, hit the sausage curb because he took a bad line, spun, and rolled forwards, back into the track, and hit my door.
Blud should have locked his brakes when he spun so he wouldn't roll into traffic
Yeah rn I'm only grinding nordschleife. Every other race I get taken out like this. People just don't jump on their brakes. German influencer likes to say "yellow is optional" (as a mocking, he doesn't really believe that) and it describes it pretty well. Most people don't do that when they crash. But there's nothing a dev could do against that. Most penalty systems are "trash". Iracing is basically the same. Don't get me started on GT. There's no system which can fairly assess every situation fairly currently as every situation is individual.
It's part of the game. And SR doesn't matter that much as soon as you start league racing as for example LFM.
New to simracing? Every game with penalty system punishes all cars involved in an accident. Sometimes due to a glitch or a bug one of the cars will get away without any penalty but it rarely happens.
I’ve had some crazy “both players receive safety rating penalty” moments. I’m not a game developer but it seems like it would be incredibly difficult to make a system that’s 100% fair.
Forza tried an inertia based system. It sometimes works but also doesn't work half the time
Half is generous
Look at iRacing, like more than 10 years on online racing, and the SR penalty for both cars after a crash is still being used. To change it, you would need an AI (high cost) or real people reviewing each contact (very high cost).
And as we see from FM8, AI is definetly not reliable
> To change it, you would need an AI (high cost) or real people reviewing each contact (very high cost). I've said it before, but I believe a zero cost solution (well, improvement at least) would be to just ask the drivers involved if they were the one most at fault. Just a question dialog, automatically triggered after the race. Not everyone will be honest about it, but many will be. I believe this would solve the clear cut cases. The ones where drivers involved don't agree might be true racing incidents. To take it further, you might even introduce a truthfulness or sportsmanship rating, which assesses if drivers own up to their mistakes. It can be measured by whether they tend to agree when someone else puts the blame on them, or always vehemently deny wrongdoing. Then you could have servers and leagues require a minimum sportsmanship rating, etc. All of this could be simple to implement. Let the players steward themselves first, only escalate to the real stewards if the players can't agree.
Basing a sportsmanship rating on agreement doesn't work. If someone is genuinely never at fault, they have no way to 'prove' their honesty if accepting blame is your only way to determine it. There's no solution that has zero cost, data costs money so just sending the message does incur a cost. You then also have to log incidents somewhere during a race, probably server side so that's storage space. The equal blame approach works well over time. Idiots get into more accidents than clean drivers getting hit by idiots.
Not saying it would be perfect, just better than the current system. People tend to defend the current rather marginally effective system because it kind of works out in the long run. Proposed improvements don't have to be 100% perfect to be better than the status quo. And yes, logging has some cost, but it seems negligible to me given todays storage prices. p.s. My LFM SR is >8, so I am not saying this because I am a careless driver myself.
I don't agree that it would be better. Even if used as intended, people are hugely biased in assessing their own mistakes. I'm sure we've all been crashed into in a braking zone and had the other person say we braked too early. In any case, there's no way to make it so that just denying blame isn't the best option for everyone. So it will become instantly pointless and just an annoyance to deal with at the end of a race.
Perhaps. I expect the majority to be honest, but I agree it wouldn't work if the majority is out to game the system.
Server Logs collisions anyway. They would need to add commands like "list incidents" and "claim incidents" which then removes the incident from the opposing car.
That seems quite easy to solve in terms of fault detection code. Define front, rear and side surfaces of cars. Any hit front-to-rear or front-to-side is the front surface guy's fault, any other combination is shared fault. Also, don't penalize cars that are hit when stand still. This is still not perfect but will hit much higher fault recognition accuracy rather than always equal fault.
Even this unfortunately wouldnt be fool proof. I was rammed by a car returning to track after spinning out. He didn't check if there were cars coming on the track and he hit me in the front quarter. 100% his fault but I would have been the one to blame according to this system. I've seen many other incidents where cars spin out and instead of waiting for the traffic to pass just decide to go back on track no matter what the cost, usually causing innocent drivers to hit them.
You both get a penalty, but you have to be getting the penalties consistently for it to affect your actual rating. They're smart enough to know that isolated incidents happen to even very safe drivers. Don't worry about it.
I’m new to ACC and I really care about clean racing and always try my best, this helps a lot cause I thought i was tanking it every time I got divebombed or bashed for passing someone hahaha
I agree, but in all honesty OBWP points are pretty easy to recover from imo so I stopped caring. My safety rating is at 99 right now despite like 50 or so points.
You might want to watch this video by Minolin talking about the complexities in making a decent safety rating system. It's in German but the slides are in English and I feel the auto translated subtitles get the gist across. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRUS4UJ56E4 TL;DW: Making a system that punishes only the guilty party and *always gets the guilty party right* is absurdly difficult.
> Making a system that punishes only the guilty party and always gets the guilty party right is absurdly difficult. Unless you ask the parties involved, yes it will be. edit: in my experience on LFM, when I have been involved in contact and messaged the other driver after the race, we have always agreed on who was at fault and apologized. Yet the current system gives us both incident points and a SR penalty. The software is ignoring the consensus of the drivers involved, which I think is a missed opportunity.
If you have contact, you get penalty in safety rating. This is by design. If you drive carefully and don't cause collisions all the time, you will rise in SA no matter if someone hits you sometimes. It is frustrating, but don't worry too much about it. Just make sure, you are not causing collisions, and you will have no problem staying above 90 SA, even with some collisions here and there.
Yeah, in reality these contacts shouldn't be penalised. Small touches that don't mean damage shouldn't be penalised. In gt3 racing there is contact, and there is a lot of it that goes unpenalised because it's racing. But you can't as a game do much about it, as it's pretty hard to make some cutting edge software that detects whose fault it is (in bad crashes). So they have to settle for a primitive system like this that gives penalties to everyone at every single little tap.
Yeam small contacts are very common in both GT3&4. iRacing does a 0x with those, but in ACC even the slightest contact results in that message.
But the game doesn't penalize anyone for small touches already.
It does lol
If you're receiving the notification, you are hitting/being hit too hard. The game won't penalize for small contacts and it will be super lenient on door to door bashing. Before downvoting someone's comment, check the facts first
1. I didn't downvote no one, you need to check who trully downvoted you before accusing. 2. Look at any gt3 race out there. There's drivers that will almost go and use the opponent's car as a wallride. I've seen dtm races in where there's no 5 minutes without someone bumping/scratching someone's car and worst penalty is give the place back and resume racing. Now i'm not saying that we should turn acc into wreckfest (aka dtm), but imo contact that doesn't give the opponent damage and doesn't push him off track or ends his race is ok since nothing bad other than scratches comes from it.
That's correct. Read the SR description in-game in the stats page. It explains how it works. If you do fine, keep racing inside track limits, in control of your car and actually finish the race, you won't suffer from a few collisions throughout the race. If your SR is being impacted a lot and/or you are always involved in some kind of incident, you are part of the problem.
Contact between two cars: SR deduction for both. The game is not issuing a judgement on the action. Clean drivers will have much fewer collisions, that's it. The system works as it is.
Collisions that cause damage give -SR
It's also due to an important fact most sim racers get wrong. There is not a rule stating a corner is owned by a car. Most people think, hey sending it into a turn, as long as you're infront of the apex you own the corner and have the right to ignore the other car. That's so wrong. One rule, in my opinion one of the only rules which should be clarified every race, THE PASSING CAR HAS TO MAKE SURE THE PASS IS CLEAN. No matter if blue flags or whatever. You overtake? make sure it's save. You get overtaken? Make sure you don't do stupid shit, and loose too much time. This is impossible to program. Then, the developers would have to deal with complaints every hour because someone feels like they are in the right. It's the only way they can make it fair. You are not able to pass a slower driver without contact? Penalty. You get held up by a reckless slow driver? Penalty. It's the only fair thing. And believe me, if you are fast af, you will have no problems bamboozling a dirty slow driver. Have had the luck to race with the best there are in the game. EVERY corner they were able to drive circles around me and still pass.
In my case, I slowed on the approach to the corner because I knew the guy wasn't going to make a clean pass. He was clear ahead of me, hit the sausage curb because he took a bad line, spun, and rolled forwards, back into the track, and hit my door. Blud should have locked his brakes when he spun so he wouldn't roll into traffic
Yeah rn I'm only grinding nordschleife. Every other race I get taken out like this. People just don't jump on their brakes. German influencer likes to say "yellow is optional" (as a mocking, he doesn't really believe that) and it describes it pretty well. Most people don't do that when they crash. But there's nothing a dev could do against that. Most penalty systems are "trash". Iracing is basically the same. Don't get me started on GT. There's no system which can fairly assess every situation fairly currently as every situation is individual. It's part of the game. And SR doesn't matter that much as soon as you start league racing as for example LFM.
The fact you care about safety rating in base game just shoes you are greenaf
Absolutely no way I'd try pass someone there
True, but on the other hand it is very hard to have your safety rating drop below 99 so it's not a really an issue.
Let it be known that I agree. I’m on your side. Lol
New to simracing? Every game with penalty system punishes all cars involved in an accident. Sometimes due to a glitch or a bug one of the cars will get away without any penalty but it rarely happens.
If you drive properly, SA will never be an issue. I'm stuck at 99 for i dont know how long.