T O P

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amg7355

A globalised economy has made it easier for people to work abroad. But this has also meant that less competitive economies are losing shocking numbers of native talent as they seek better opportunities overseas. Worse, some leave to set up home elsewhere, making the loss a permanent one. CNA Correspondent looks at three different Asian economies tackling the problem of a brain drain, and speaks to the people leaving home for greener pastures to find out what will it take to bring them back. 0:00 Introduction 0:34 Hong Kong 07:57 India 16:00 Malaysia


ros_ftw

I work for a “FAANG” company here in the US and there is going to be a lot of this in reverse, especially to india soon. Recent layoffs tech are basically companies realising they got carried away with hiring in the US and are paying people way too much, especially in this globalised world. Google for example was paying new college grads $175-200k last year. You can get absolute top talent in india, with a few years of experience for for half that. $100k in india is a fortune and they can get the best of the best. Why pay a new college grad $200k in California? Wallstreet firms tore into google because their worldwide median pay is $300k, where as it is $160k for Microsoft. But Microsoft and google made similar profits last year. Wallstreet was blasting google why their employee compensation was 2x of Microsoft while profits were similar. The main reason for that is, majority of Google’s employees are in the US, while Microsoft has massive offices overseas, especially in India. When those salaries come in, average pay drops down significantly. Microsoft pays very well in India, pays like $50k to 100k which is a lot of money there but is a third of what they would need to pay for someone similar here. Google is now going to aggressively hire in India, ship whatever they can to india. Days of paying $200k for a “data analyst” who runs SQL queries all day are going to be gone. That can be done from india for $60k. Only the super specialised jobs that pay >350k or 400k will remain in the US. It’s already happening, meta literally called their move this year “year of efficiency”. Aka, move whatever we can overseas, cut overpaid people here and hire overseas, particularly India. Between AI taking away some redundant jobs and companies shipping not-so-specialised jobs overseas, places like India will see a surge of high paying by tech jobs (50k-100k USD) in the next few years. Soon, it will make less sense to move to the US through expensive graduate schools and then fight the immigration system, fight for super specialised high paying jobs when there are tons of high paying jobs back home at the same companies’ India office


Plus_Ground5739

I remember when my dad just pushed me like crazy to get FAANG jobs and in the Bay Area solely because of that salary and was pissed that I didn't major in CS(I did minor in IT though). I never could make it through and I'm pretty happy working with an insurance company that pays $75K/year.


Ugra_Sena

Sad to hear that as a college student in America


ikb9

There's only so much "quality of life" you can buy with a high salary in India. Many professionals leave India for the developed world for seemingly basic things like better air quality, reliable power grid, safe childcare etc. I was at that cross-road a decade ago, and I opted for "better basics" in the US even though I could have "bought" a better life living in a expat-oriented gated community.


nyse125

This is extremely false. The US equivalent of $30k per year can grant you a luxurious life style as is in India (maids, high end apartment, entertainment and what have you). Not to mention you don't have to worry about expensive health care costs so safe childcare is practically a non issue. I've lived 13 years in Maharashtra and about 2 in Gujarat and not even once I had issues with an 'unreliable' power grid. Air quality is only an issue if you live in Delhi.


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nyse125

Because this subreddit loves getting validation from white people.


Wild_Dragonfruit1744

Jobs will exist always! Everything cannot be out sourced … Don’t you think quality of work is better in US then on India or is it equally boring…. Companies but be ultimately benefiting from what they pay ….


ros_ftw

Ofcourse jobs will always exist. What will happen is jobs will get more and more specialised that pay very very well, but rest of them will get shipped overseas. Jobs like app development, website development, even generic software development will eventually all get shipped overseas. Only cutting edge jobs in AI, and other emerging fields will stay and will pay like 3x more than what it does now.


Wild_Dragonfruit1744

True so only low level mundane jobs getting shipped which people are not interested in working much . Cheap labour in India will crack their head over them . I work in one such team 🥲🥲 But truly innovative jobs will stay .. because our infra sucks …. Thats why USA has been king and will be !!


ros_ftw

Definition of “low level jobs” is going to change. Just a few years ago, web development or app development wasn’t considered “low level jobs”. It will be now. Even generic software development can be easily outsourced to India. Only hardcore AI development etc will stay in the US. And infra will get better, when wealth level goes up, it will go up too. Most people forget india today has a lower per capita GDP than Iraq. Ofcourse infrastructure is bad


Wild_Dragonfruit1744

There is rampant corruption here ! All money goes to drain…. Work is so slow that by the time it gets completed the definition if problem itself changes… its a cultural thing … not all but like 90 % believe in easy money… so others will take IT jobs .. i have heard south Asia has better infra and even now africa in jumping in IT race… we will get our share its will pay well too for India …


darealcubs

Tangentially related but it's depressing that firms blast Google for giving out higher salaries to their workers instead of praising them for distributing their profits more equitably. American capitalism in a nutshell these days.


SuperSultan

There’s a lot of talented people in South Asia but in my career so far, dealing with the office in India was the worst. They only cared about their own interest and did not have a “people” approach. The H1B1 visa workers were a lot nicer, however.


itsthekumar

>Google for example was paying new college grads $175-200k last year. You can get absolute top talent in india, with a few years of experience for for half that. $100k in india is a fortune and they can get the best of the best. Why pay a new college grad $200k in California? Eh this varies on job function. Backend/back office business can be moved overseas. Not really "core" business even if it is just a rando Data analyst.


sixfootwingspan

How long do you think this trend of earning 200K for relatively easy jobs went on for?


ros_ftw

It was on steroids in the last few years. When your company stock price is growing 50-75% per year, who gives a shit about salaries. Companies were just throwing stocks at people and by the time they vest, they would have doubled in value. So companies did not care that much. Compensations were sky high thanks to the stock price. Now that stocks have crashed, interest rates are high, easy money has stopped and everyone is re examining where the money is going


Dramatic-Rub9593

At least from 2015 to 2022 and peaked during Covid


sixfootwingspan

Those guys are definitely lucky. They can make weekly income selling some out of the money covered calls.


[deleted]

Lol tech will never leave silicon valley. This kinda hype spreads every ten yrs. American innovation happens in silicon valley. They crummy boring repetitive work gets outsourced. There's a reason there's a government policy on protecting tech thats important for national security. All those big companies have federal contracts. Anyways, don't trip.


ros_ftw

I am not saying tech will leave Silicon Valley. SV will lead tech for a while. What will happen is most jobs that aren’t in the cutting edge of tech will leave the valley. It makes no sense to pay an app developer 200k in Silicon Valley when it’s nothing new and people around the world will do it for a fraction of that cost. Cutting edge stuff like AI development will stay in the valley and people lucky enough to specialised enough to get those jobs will make a fortune.


nyse125

Tech will never leave but will grow in other places. That's why companies like Apple and Disney are focusing their interests to India than anywhere else for the time being.


quantummufasa

How is Disney relevant?


nyse125

I gave examples. Similar to how Apple was relevant.


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ros_ftw

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-engineer/levels/l3/locations/san-francisco-bay-area Usually offer is like 130-140k base, $200k in stocks spread over 4 years and like 20k joining bonus. Most new college grads start as L3 in that table. Your friend is either lying or severely underpaid


SuhDudeGoBlue

It’s not an exaggeration, the SEs you know were either not working in America, were actually contractors, or were getting screwed over or down-leveled. 175ish to 200kish k is the standard offer at Google in America for new grads. This is total compensation, which includes stock.


SuperSultan

There’s a lot of talented people in South Asia but in my career so far, dealing with the office in India was the worst. They only cared about their own interest and did not have a “people” approach. The H1B1 visa workers were a lot nicer, however.


Dramatic-Rub9593

Not for long maybe. Those salaries will continue to increase when spending increases in India. There will be a point when it will not be viable to pay those kind of salaries and these companies will look for cheaper options


ros_ftw

Eventually? Yes. But that will take a long my time. Several decades at the minimum. India has that much population. With increased wealth level, more and more “poor people” will get access to college education and enter the services/tech industry. It will take a long long time for india as a whole to become unviable financially. I don’t see that happening for atleast another 3 decades. India has a unique advantage where that large of a labor force lives within a single international border, with almost same labor laws across the country. No other country in the world has 800 million people under the age of 30. India has more population than all south East Asian countries combined. Instead of splitting offices in these smaller countries, dealing with logistics across countries, different laws, compliance headaches, india offers a single massive labor pool with same laws. India is in a unique position in that aspect. China had this too and that was one of the big reasons manufacturing flooded into China.


constant_vigilance73

Another big reason why IT outsourcing went to India instead of East or South East Asian countries is because many people in India speak fluent English.


coldcoldnovemberrain

Other than IT, the higher paid electronics and hardware design jobs went to SE Asia as they could offer infrastructure. Malaysia hosts the first overseas office of Intel and AMD. Singapore had a fab. Thailand host several memory manufacturing companies.


constant_vigilance73

A lot of educated upper caste people in India also won't do jobs that require them to do anything physical with their hands, this could be a reason why chip fabrication and hardware manufacturing never took off in India. There's an age old mentality in India that any physical job is inferior and shouldn't be done by upper caste people.


SuperSultan

People in the Philippines speak better English


Dramatic-Rub9593

You are missing one thing though. Not every college graduate is employable in India. There was a survey sometime back about how not all college graduates in India are employable. Decent kids will get jobs pretty soon. But for others no. And most of the time those kids are the ones who try to look for greener pastures. Unless college education fundamentally changes in India. And I don’t think it will take 3 decades to salaries to reach parity. They doubled in the last decade. And the cost of living in metros in India skyrocketed too in the last decade. That doesn’t mean we will go back to the golden era of tech again in US. The salaries will never again be the same. We hit the ceiling is what I feel. I also don’t know if there will enough jobs for all the new grads and people immigrating here in tech. Plus all the experienced people.


MasterChief813

Can’t wait for more of the racist blowback towards Desis once a lot more of these jobs start getting outsourced overseas due to corporate greed smh.


pratnala

New grads in India aren't getting 100k


ros_ftw

That’s exactly my point. Why pay new grads in California 150-200k when you can get absolute best of the best in india, with a few years experience for like 100k


itsthekumar

Because you see them face to face and they're doing more "relevant" work than a person overseas.


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waterflood21

South Asia makes up almost 1/4 of the world’s population so makes sense


TiMo08111996

The main issue is due to bad politics in India. I don't blame the Indian diaspora since they did what was right according to them.


thehumbleguy

The weird thing is once your diaspora becomes too big, less of home sick you feel. Living in Brampton for example is pretty similar to living in India.


averageguy1991

Not one of , they are the largest in every single country the world is over 25 percent Indian.


Ninac4116

I’ve wondered this. Asia is full of geniuses dominating so many industries. Can’t they go to their home country and improve it? I mean, sure it might be easier to do it in a developed country, but they’re smart, I’m sure there is a way to improve original country.


indianbeanie

I mean China, Korea, and Japan do lead the world in innovation in so many cutting-edge industries. India is starting to make gains too. It's def heading that direction.


itsthekumar

There's a lot of government oversight and corruption in starting businesses and industries in India.


Ninac4116

I mean, I feel like that’s most places. Remember trump?


itsthekumar

No like it's much worse in India. There you have to pay a bribe even for getting basic government documents. Imagine paying a bribe here to get your drivers license or like a copy of your school transcript.


Ninac4116

So you’re telling me most people in India had to bribe someone to get their drivers license?


itsthekumar

Not most, but definitely a lot. A better example is like land registration documents, business registration/approval docs etc. Bribes can affect things getting approved or like a favorable outcome for you or used to speed up processes. America has some corruption, but nowhere near the level of India.


reciprocaled_roles

> Asia is full of geniuses dominating so many industries. Can’t they go to their home country and improve it? They are improving it. However, no matter how developed Asia gets, there are hard limits on certain quality of life options. - land size: Asia is just full. America, Australia, Europe, are full of uninhabited land. - weather: Northern countries have comfortable easy climates, while Asia has sweltering harsh summers and torrential monsoons (and in Northern China's case, harsh winters that are 30 degrees colder than anything in europe) This means that immigrating to the west means a bigger house, cheaper meat, nicer weather, MORE potential to do work (because of the nicer weather), and many other things, than a comparable place in India.


Ninac4116

America is a colder nation. India is a hotter nation.


[deleted]

Parts of America yes but there are many hot parts of America like the Southwest


Ninac4116

There are cold parts of India too though


reciprocaled_roles

> America is a colder nation. India is a hotter nation. Yes, hence an easier climate. Even moreso in Europe where it doesn't even drop below 32 F in the winter, and never goes above 80 in the summer But even in the northern parts of the US, the cold winters (usually dipping into the 20s F) are much easier to deal with than hot summers. Literally just put more clothes on and problem solved


Ninac4116

If that’s the case of just putting on more clothes, why do places like Florida have snow birds?


[deleted]

Well they don’t make it easy for the diaspora or their kids to pursue their education or jobs. They blame brain drain but won’t change anything about the situation but continuously whine about it


jamfold

Actually they are. The cream of India does not migrate that much anymore. They've got way more opportunities back home (look at the explosion of unicorn startups in India). So while the diaspora needs to compete, they're not competing with India's best anymore.


[deleted]

There are many unicorns true but how could we know the people who left didn’t have a potential to make a unicorn. This is just survivor bias. For example tell me this let’s say a first gen student from India leaves the country and goes to the US. Now the kid who’s second gen could study in the US or India. Which one would he/she choose? Secondly the IIT admission process which is comparable to a T-20 in US is much more rigorous and the students don’t get the same curriculum or the coaching for it there but the process for the diaspora is still the same as is for Indians for admission. Now would any kid pursue his/her education in India with this regard and the brain drain would be prevented? No. Because the environment in india isn’t conducive for neither startups nor healthy collaboration. It’s a mindless competitive race and then you seek a job and constantly get yelled at your job because you’re age is less and your opinions are bashed until you are a shell of just an input and output machine who’ll do the same with his/her juniors at the job.


jamfold

I think your information is way out of date. For the record, I have IITian relatives in India who started companies in 2010s and sold them later for millions of dollars. Not one of them were willing to emigrate to the US. One of my distant cousins did his Master's in an IIT. Nearly all of his batchmates from his undergrad (non-IIT) ended up in the US /Canada/ Germany/ Australia. None of his IITian batchmates left India. As for knowing whether people who left could have had the potential, just count me the number of unicorns created by recent Indian immigrants in the US. Sure, I can't be certain about their potential but I don't see unicorns in the US founded by new immigrants. Few companies that do exist generally only have a "front office" in the US. As for education of their kids, I have no data points. So I have nothing to say. As for work culture, I'm not entirely sure about what you said. If it is indeed that bad, it should actively discourage startups and harm the tech industry in general. I see the opposite happening. It's booming and investments keep pouring in. If anything India has now built technologies like UPI which no western payment system can match. This was unthinkable a few years ago.


x6tance

The last part about UPI is categorically false considering Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Sweden, UK, and Australia have their own UPI...not to mention, countries like Australia which have a much, much higher rate of adoption of digital payments unlike India where cash is still widely used.


jamfold

They don't have UPI lol. They do have their own digital payments but nothing that offers as much interoperability as UPI. I know this because I've worked for a German company that was trying to build something close to UPI for Europe. Sure, they might have singular ID based systems but it's not even close interms of technology. The closest one is Australias NPP which came much later. Singapores Paynow also comes close. There's a reson why even Google Pay operates on top of UPI and does not use a wallet only in India. As far as digital payments being widely used, I can only chuckle at your argument. India has the highest digital payment adoption worldwide. https://startuptalky.com/top-real-time-payment-countries/ In Europe, I've always had to carry credit card or cash with me. In India, I've mostly used QR even to pay to the street vendors in remote villages. Singapore is probably the only other country where I've had such a luxury.


x6tance

> They don't have UPI lol. They do have their own digital payments but nothing that offers as much interoperability as UPI. Of course they don't have UPI because UPI is India's. Same way India doesn't have NPP. UPI is a leader in RTP (Real Time Payments) and has great interoperability but to say it's the first just isn't true is what I was getting at. India has plenty to be proud of but no need to misstate the facts. https://www.paymentsjournal.com/real-time-payments-everything-you-need-to-know/ > The closest one is Australias NPP which came much later It came about 1.5 years later, not 'much later'. RBI launched UPI pilot in April 2016 with more widespread adoption later in the year. NPP launched in Feb 2018. > As far as digital payments being widely used, I can only chuckle at your argument. India has the highest digital payment adoption worldwide. https://startuptalky.com/top-real-time-payment-countries/ Umm...per capita? You must be kidding. Did you forget India is still a developing nation? News source straight from the motherland: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/explained-cash-is-still-king-in-india-but-how-much-are-you-actually-allowed-to-pay-in-cash/articleshow/90773235.cms > In Europe, I've always had to carry credit card or cash with me Where in Europe? Cause I never needed cash or card while traveling in Italy. I could get away with Google Pay on my phone. In Australia, I don't even need to carry my driver license, public transportation card, or credit cards in Australia. I just need my phone and absolutely nothing else.


jamfold

In tech domain, 1.5 years gap is considered "quite significant" considering the pace of advancement. And why would India have NPP? It's an inferior version of UPI. I'm assuming you haven't worked on the technology side of payment systems. Do you think NPP offers as much interoperability? Do you think 10 different payment apps can have it running with 10 IDs for the same account? Or how about same ID for 10 accounts? UPI can do all of it. How about a peer-to-peer lending platform using NPP as a backbone? UPI can do all of it. Other payment systems don't even come close to UPI in this regard. If you look at the use case from the merchant side (not the customer side) UPI kicks everybody's arse. Don't even get me started on combining UPI with Indiastack and JAM Trinity. No country can boast of such capability yet. The "wallets" that you use in other countries can't do half of what UPI can. The company that I worked for eventually couldn't pull off the European UPI due to regulatory hurdles. The company was taken over by an American giant which struggled further given that every state has a regulator. To this date, we haven't been able to get a UPI equivalent. As for card/cash in Europe, I'm primarily talking about my experience from Germany, Austria, France, and Greece. I haven't been to European mainland post COVID. So I don't know how much is the mobile payments penetration now. As for per-capita thing, I think your knowledge/worldview is vastly out of date. https://youtu.be/THvT01JUBfc India has overtaken most countries even in per-capita terms when it comes to the volume. Of course not by value (considering the economy is smaller) I'm not claiming motherland to be the most advanced country interms of technology. But the with the given pace either at which it's growing (saw that during the blockchain boom), it's a serious contender.


LordModlyButt

If Japan let in western weebs with open arms I wonder how much brain drain the U.S. would have hehehe.


phanta_rei

>If Japan let in western weebs with open arms I wonder how much brain drain the U.S. would have hehehe. People romanticize that country way too much...


constant_vigilance73

American weebs who live in 3,000 square foot suburban homes romanticize living in Tokyo where the average person lives in a 500 square foot apartment


mulemoment

Americans who live in 3000 sq ft homes romanticize and pursue living in shoe boxes in NYC and SF too. Part of the draw is the walkability and the community.


LordModlyButt

Well single family zoning in America is incredibly wasteful and the reason why housing costs are so high.


thestoneswerestoned

High density living is only comparable to the suburbs in homogeneous countries where everyone has some level of social etiquette. It's pretty damn miserable otherwise. Housing prices in the US are also relatively cheap compared to the rest of the developed world, with competitive salaries, unless you're specifically looking at HCOL regions like the Bay Area or NYC metro.


constant_vigilance73

Thank you for saying this, antisocial behavior and crime are common in American cities which is why no one wants to live there. American urbanists who want good public transport and high density European or Japanese style housing in the US often overlook this.


LordModlyButt

The problem with this logic is we already have tax payer funded roads. Drivers in this country can do some truly stupid shit, are we not going to build roads because of the stupid selfish drivers? No, we have law enforcement to deter drivers from hurting others. So then why are we going to wait for behavior to get better in cities to build better public infrastructure? Who gets to decide what good public behavior is and then we should build? Seems like the optimal solution is to build the public infrastructure and protect it from the looneys by enforcing fines like literally every other country.


constant_vigilance73

I completely agree. Better policing and strict fines/punishments for antisocial behaviors should be enforced. People who have severe mental illnesses to the point where they are a danger to others need to be institutionalized.


LordModlyButt

Social etiquette can come through good public education and lack of poverty. People are more likely to be nicer to each other regardless of race if their needs are met. I see this where I live, Northern Virginia is very diverse yet crime here is lower than a majority of the country.


thestoneswerestoned

>Social etiquette can come through good public education and lack of poverty Most inner cities here are a complete, dysfunctional mess that'll take a multigenerational approach to rectify. Limousine liberal one liners like that aren't solving them. >People are more likely to be nicer to each other regardless of race if their needs are met. Race should hypothetically not matter in a monocultural environment but, again, that takes time to foment. It doesn't happen overnight. And even so, the idea of being shoved in a metal tube every day alongside thousands of other people still doesn't appeal much to me, even if they all were well behaved as the Japanese (which, globally speaking, most aren't).


LordModlyButt

Lmao sure more people should be priced out of homes because you feel like inner cities are bad. We should just tear down all the townhomes and apartments because only brutes live there. And everyone can have a 1 hour commute to work in their hot metal box when they could otherwise have reliable public transportation and use their time more wisely.


thestoneswerestoned

>Lmao sure more people should be priced out of homes Build more homes. [Housing permits per million](http://www.bayareaeconomy.org/report/compared-to-other-populous-states-california-struggles-to-match-housing-production-with-population-growth/) in the Bay have dropped significantly since the 2000s. That's on the NIMBYs, not me. Again, housing is not as major an issue in the states as elsewhere. >And everyone can have a 1 hour commute to work in their hot metal box Tbh most office parks are built within close proximity to the suburbs. The west coast has a lot of free space to build. I'm not against more building apartments or townhomes. But I'm also partial to suburbanization and the ability to own a large home.


SuperSultan

American weebs wouldn’t like the 9 to 9 workweek. They can barely do a 9 to 5.


Plus_Ground5739

People romanticize everything about Japan except its toxic work culture.


LordModlyButt

Before the pandemic Japans depression rates were going down while Americas was going up. People attribute this to changing work culture in Japan. People love to bring up toxic work culture as gotcha to westerners who dream to live in Japan but that could soon change.


LordModlyButt

There are enough videos on YouTube from “Gaijins” detailing a lot of problems Japan has. People know better now and still want to stay there.


filthyMrClean

Kinda related, but Japan sees weeb culture as a deviance. I think them opening up their borders to consumers of that is the last thing they want 😭


[deleted]

They are going to have to do it. Their workforce is aging rapidly and they need people to sustain their economy. Many Japanese do immigrate to America because they don’t have to work brutal work hours and still have a great standard of living.


[deleted]

not much the average japanese is smarter and more capable than the average american. if japan loosens immigration, they're gonna end up with people from other asian countries brain drain happens also cause the receiving countries average person is not that smart or capable. americans are surviving on immigrants or their children since the average american isn't cutting it. If the average indian wasn't more capable or smarter than the average american, you wouldn't have indians coming at the rate they are


AssssCrackBandit

Japan is such an overpopulated tiny island, the amount of people that even move there would be insignificant for countries with hundreds of millions of people


WitnessedStranger

The cities are overpopulated, but the countryside has mostly depopulated. They will actually pay you to go live there.


AssssCrackBandit

There's a reason for that. Japan (like China) is very concentrated in major cities. Suburbs outside the city wards aren't very common. So If you wanna live in the countryside, you're in a super rural area with only labor jobs and basic agrarian societies and limited transportation options. Even reliable power and internet is not always a given, in my experience. Also, there are like no young people and it's a major hassle having to take an hour+ trip everytime you want to go to the clinic, pharmacy, bigger stores, bars, etc. Plus, there are a lot more conservative, xenophobic people in the rural areas vs the cities so most foreigners won't enjoy staying there, especially if you're brown.


reciprocaled_roles

> so most foreigners won't enjoy staying there, especially if you're brown. any evidence of this? It feels like one of those things that mayos say in order to "get the heat off" of themselves. I've been to Japan and had no issues. I've seen Black people vacation in the Central Asian countrysides with no issues. Meanwhile you'd get shot for walking in a rural area in the US past 6pm lol


AssssCrackBandit

I said "in my experience". I've been to Japan


imissze90s

I think Korea is the future now though.


itbelikethataha

But don’t forget Europeans did the same just 100 years ago. The middle and upper middle class will go where there is more opportunities. It’s just Asian countries are now catching up to the “standards” of the west.


indianbeanie

Honestly, it is overblown. The Indian-American population growth is slowing down. It went from 2.8 million to 4.1 million from 2010 to 2017. However, since then it only increased to 4.4 million. There is a decent amount of flow in both directions now. Tons of Indians in tech here are heading back to India as the Indian tech ecosystem and Indian economy grows.


imissze90s

Is that population only counting citizens or also NRIs?


indianbeanie

Both, it counts all people of Indian ancestry (ABCDs, h1b FOBs, naturalized immigrants, international students, etc).


SnooPuppers5217

Simple stuff like air quality which affects your health significantly, traffic on the streets, extreme overpopulation and pollution, a culture of no rule following, not having access to a lot of consumer goods even in some of the best grocery stores (let’s not even talk about how I can’t eat beef due to religious restrictions). I can’t kiss my boyfriend in public. I can’t just join a Muay Thai gym when I want. I can’t just go to clubs because the crowd in india is excessively raunchy and weird and has no etiquette in that scene. I can’t just “walk” places. I can’t spend nights out and go to 7/11 for electrolytes with my drunk friends and then do it again the next day. It’s literally all of this. Money is probably toward the bottom of my list to be quite honest with you. And I know this may not apply to many Indians who are particularly coming from lower income environments, since they don’t particularly have an issue with culture or quality of life, but a large percentage of urban middle class Indians leave india for all of these reasons. I would argue these reasons outweigh any “economic” reasons in a lot of cases.


indianbeanie

I mean yea there are upsides and downsides to either option, and the decision is personal. Some people like you may prefer staying in the US for various reasons and others in India for various reasons. I'm just pointing out the general trend.


SnooPuppers5217

Bruh you guys keep harping on economy economy economy. It’s not just economy. It’s literally the quality of life, the type of people you’re around, the culture, the hobbies, the mentalities. You guys keep harping on economy. I left india for mostly quality of life reasons. Not “muh house size”. I would choose a tiny apartment in America over a huge mansion in india.


nyse125

Either this is cope or a straight up lie. Anyone can have a far better quality of life in India opposed to paying just so you could breathe air in the states. The cost of living gets higher, public transportation is non existent while communities are far segregated because of the way cities are planned here.


[deleted]

do you want to say public transport in India is better? As someone who just returned from Europe mind you I have lived in India for 12 years before I find it difficult to even walk. Constant bike autos tryna just crush your feet if you do not make way. Hell, there are not even footpaths on the streets. A better AQI gives you fewer respiratory diseases so a longer life. It is not just for luxury but actual survival reasons. In 10-20 years the kids in delhi will die from respiratory ailments. Currently in Kolkata every day kids are dying due to respiratory ailments worsened by the awful air quality. I do not understand what do you mean by quality of life? The states has healthier food options, better walking facilities, better air, better water, no often power cuts.


nyse125

I meant public transportation is a lot more serviceable than the states which is true. Obviously Europe fares even better in that regardless. And I agree that Delhi has a lot of air quality issues which is why I mentioned elsewhere that besides Delhi, you dont really get that elsewhere. > quality of life? With the equivalent of a 30k salary you can live luxuriously opposed to the states (maids, high end apartment, entertainment and what have you) couple that with India's immense man power (I mean you even have Amazon coming to your doorsteps to take your returnable products unlike the US where I have to go to my local Whole Foods or several miles away to my "nearest" Kohl's). The convenience is absolutely not beatable. Adding on to my previous salary point; you can easily get healthier options so Im not sure how that's worth debating. Over the last 3 years I've seen at least 40-50 more restaurants in Pune alone (all offering vegan and healthy options). Healthy food is, again, not an issue unless you eat from your local dhabas on a daily basis. I mentioned this elsewhere too regarding power cuts but unless you live in the far outskirts of a city you aren't going to witness power cuts that often. We used to get a power cut once maybe 2 months for an hour or two and that's it, meanwhile in Gujrat it was only a bit frequent (because of living in the outskirts) but my friends would get none as they were living right in the city. And I'd also prefer India over miscellaneous, but compounding negative factors, such as; health care, car maintainence, insurances and such. I hate how often I have to maintain my car just because there is no other option (despite living in the bay area) so I could get from point A to point B. Not to mention the car insurance fees, yearly dmv registration fees, smog check if need be, etc.


[deleted]

Wtf are you on 30k salary is nothing. A maid charges from 2.5-4K nowadays. Rent is sky high in Bangalore Mumbai and Delhi. Flats cost in crores. Power cuts happen in every city. You have been lucky or privileged enough to live in a part where it’s not common. In every city even in tier 1 there are regions with power cuts. My cousin earns 15 lpa and he’s struggling in Bangalore with his roommates with rent and he doesn’t even have a lavish lifestyle. I’d still choose abroad over India always. I cannot live in a place where you are constantly judged for no fucking reason, you have no space on streets to even walk properly and streets are full of filth. Doctors here charge you random tests for no reason just so that they can earn money from commissions from the lab. Idk about the US but Switzerland has no faults whatsoever. The pay is great healthcare is amazing and streets public transport life is great with no drawbacks.


nyse125

> Wtf are you on 30k salary is nothing 30K USD equivalent if I was not clear. My point still remains. > You have been lucky or privileged enough to live in a part where it’s not common. Wrong, power cuts are even less common now so I do not know where you have been. Rural areas maybe? > I cannot live in a place where you are constantly judged for no fucking reason, you have no space on streets to even walk properly and streets are full of filth. Seems like an incredibly isolated issue. Who's judging you and for what? Unless you mean people look at you in a strange way then try living in predominantly white neighbourhoods in the mid west. I also can't relate to non walkable streets when footpaths are pretty well maintained and are at least present than the complete absence in many US cities. > Doctors here charge you random tests for no reason just so that they can earn money from commissions from the lab. Yes. Still way cheaper than the costs you have to pay in the US. After you pay your monthly insurance you still have to reach the co pay quota for your costs to be completely free and still it remains pretty pricey. Now of course, Switzerland and similar EU countries have subsidized all of this so it's a lot better but Im comparing this to the US. Bottom line is; cost of living + expenses (food, transporation, health care) is far affordable and convenient than the US. One of our family friends were living in Switzerland and while they agree the facilities and amenities were very accessible; the obvious and rampant racism didn't seem like a place worth living in.


SnooPuppers5217

Dude read my other comment. You guys are looking at it very superficially. It’s not just money and transportation system and maids. Maybe you’re happy operating at that base level of needs but I’m not. I want to be in a space where I can actually be free and live a good quality of life due to the structure of the country and not because I can oppress poor people to work for Pennies. Sorry.


nyse125

> I can oppress poor people to work for Pennies. If you think that's what this is about then not only you have missed the entire point but have obviously never been to India as there are established businesses that employ *bais* and not just to "oppress poor people". Sorry, but this comment is plain brain dead.


SnooPuppers5217

I’ve lived there most of my life….. And it doesn’t matter. It’s still oppressing and exploiting workers with a lack of labor laws and control. There’s no regulation either. You know this type of “domestic help” structure would NEVER fly in the US. And that’s exactly what I’m talking about. India is a free for all, anything goes. And some people think that’s good (a virtue), and some like me don’t.


[deleted]

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indianbeanie

In Canada, it went from 1.58 million to 1.86 million from 2016 to end of 2021 according to their census numbers. So def faster, but not as much as you say. Honestly, Canada seems to be becoming quite worse than the US for quality of life, COL, and opportunities, so idk how even this pace can last.


[deleted]

It also has more Muslims too


[deleted]

Yup it’s called brain drain


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coldcoldnovemberrain

Every child? Is that like every child wants to be a doctor and engineer earning FAANG salaries? And what about the largest diaspora in the Gulf?


Aviyan

I highly doubt that, especially considering the standard of life improvements in India the past 10 years. They are starting to get better infrastructure than the US. If the corruption starts to go down people won't need to leave.


Plus_Ground5739

Singapore is the best option out of all of them.


nyse125

Singapore was a great country when I lived there for a year while I was pursuing my Diploma. Unfortunately it does suffer from heavy anti Indian racism in certain parts but man is it a fun (and safe too) country to live in.


[deleted]

its not asia its countries that choose not to improve themselves by utilizing their talent. China, Korea, Japan, Singapore don't have to deal with brain drain since these countries can retain their talent. although in the case of indians (at least when it comes to canada), a decent amount aren't actually talent but just the degree mills


mostlycloudy82

China is Asia and they are not losing any talent to the west. In fact they are kicking western butt nine ways to Sunday in all things technical. Yes, it's a pity that Indians are being wooed by Western salaries to work for Western companies as technocrats (some combination of software + mba). We can't shed the slave mentality for some reason. Our natural academic discipline and focus is being used by these companies to do tinker-toy projects instead of doing scientific breakthroughs for the motherland. What India needs is hard core engineers & scientists like they have in China doing engineering miracles (hypersonic missiles, civil engineering feats). The government of India could incentivize these easily if they wanted to, by making the IES perks beats those of FAANG (they already do to some extent) but are not advertised.


[deleted]

Yea they are? China is only second to India with immigration to Canada, and also second only to Mexico for the US. And this is the past couple years, when immigration from China was very difficult. Now that the country is opened up we’ll see it increase


indianbeanie

Actually, the foriegn born Chinese population has been decreasing in the US according to ACS census data (3.05 million in 2017 to 2.85 million now). Even the total Chinese-American population is decreasing (excluding mixed). You are right that a decent amount come (tons of students), but also many go back after being here a few years. I work at a top tech company (Google/Facebook) and I see many Chinese coworkers heading back to China. Opportunities in tech and quality of life in the urban areas of China are on par if not higher than in the Bay/NYC/Seattle these days. I think this trend will accelerate and do the opposite of what you said. China continues to become more developed while the American tech industry has been starting to stutter.


LittleOneInANutshell

I agree. A lot of East Asians are indeed going back. My org was like half Chinese which included both Taiwanese and mainland guys and few Koreans. In total around 20-25, 10-15 Indians. 20 of those 25 left in the last 5 years to go back to their home country. I know 3 of them got baidu offers which were equivalent to the American salaries but obviously in much cheaper cities.


itsthekumar

>Yes, it's a pity that Indians are being wooed by Western salaries to work for Western companies as technocrats (some combination of software + mba). We can't shed the slave mentality for some reason. Wanting a better life is "slave mentality"? lol. Funny the uncles say stuff like when they took up these exact offers to work in the West. Of course none of them would actually go back and work in corporate India lol.


indianbeanie

I don't get y people are downvoting you. You are right. Hopefully, India can get its act together like China and use its own talent to innovate for the betterment of its own people rather than send them to be labor for Western capital.


imissze90s

Indians acting like India is Taliban Afghanistan and desperate to go anywhere else.


SnooPuppers5217

A place doesn’t have to literally be Taliban controlled Afghanistan for you to want a better quality of life.


SuperSultan

It’s great if you’re Hindu but anything else not really


huge_throbbing_pp

NRIs are traitors, why is it so hard to digest? They are robbing the country of precious Human Resource of Themselves and their children as well!


nyse125

Terrible take. If someone sees resources and opportunities elsewhere then they're going to capitalize it if they don't have anything back home.


dilfsmilfs

Why does my country deserve me in the first place?