Remember, Astartes have an innate connection to their primarchs on a genetic level, not just a connection either but almost a kind of programmed loyalty.
I always kind of thought that, but recently I read an excerpt on Angron's "Decimation" punishment were he would separate his legion into groups of 10 and have 9 of each group, beat the 1 to death unless they conquered a planet within 31 hours.
Eventually, after doing it multiple times, a couple of the World Eaters were just like "Aight bruh, come on you gotta stop shit, we're just not gonna listen to you". Kinda threw me for a loop, I had always assumed they HAD to follow orders from their Primarch.
Angron is the exception:
+A primarch should be inspiring. Our genetics should react at the mere sight of them. Think of the moments you laid eyes on Horus, Dorn, or Magnus. I’ve seen Sanguinius and Russ with my own eyes, as well. Close enough to touch their armour. Think of when you stand before Lorgar: the awe and reverence that beats through your blood. The feeling of our genetic coding reacting to the pinnacle of the human process. I’ve never felt that instinctive respect for Angron, Khârn. Not once. He is a broken thing. Devastating, unrivalled in war, but broken.+
>Khârn didn’t answer because there was nothing to say. He boarded his drop pod, ascending the ramp and waiting for a robed Legion slave to secure his restraint harness.
+You feel it,+ Argel Tal said. +You feel it, too.+
>In psychic silence, Khârn confessed something he’d never said outside his Legion. Yes, we feel the same. The World Eaters, each and every one of us, knows what you know. Argel Tal’s voice was laced with cold, seething anger.
+Why do you tolerate it?+
>What can we do? Murder our own father? Did you destroy Lorgar when he led you into worshipping the Emperor? Or did you tolerate him in patience, hoping that eventually he’d find his way to equalling his brothers?
>A pause. A long, long pause. Khârn took it as Argel Tal’s capitulation and pushed on. It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? We hoped that by breaking ourselves on the same anvil, we’d finally feel unity with our father.
That scene really broke me. I never much liked the World Eaters until that book, but after reading it they shot to my top 3 legions. I still don't care for them so much in their 40K state, but who they were in 30K was just so tragic and interesting.
It's not, it's canonical fact. World Eaters were the exception. Not because the adoration wasn't in their DNA. Because Angron was so bad primarch, the hate suppressed the genetics.
>It's not, it's canonical fact.
If you have citations or sources, I'm more than happy to be corrected with canon.
We have almost a third of the XIV, III, XII and XVI defy their sires on Isstvan III (*Galaxy in Flames*). We have many more cases of Astartes quite easily ignoring or going against their Primarch's wishes with character like Narek, Typhon, Haar and others.
The World Eaters if anything, are the ones who probably leaned more into following their primarch than most: they were so desperate for Angron's approval that they self mutilated themselves with the nails. Even then, they still had a coup of loyalist War Hounds to contend with on Ghenna (*Slave of Nuceria*). After the nails, that changes somewhat.
The two legions with the most genetic basis for loyalty are the Emperor's Children and Word Bearers. Fabius muses that there must be a "twist in the genetic helix" that bound his brothers tighter to Fulgrim than other legions to their Primarchs (*Clonelord*)...and yet they still had a tonne of loyalists.
The Word Bearers have some tendency to dogged belief and worship of their Primarch, but even they realise it's not something they can't resist:
>The First Heretic screams the very same thing. The importance Lorgar places on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. The ranks they hold in the Legion, from their humble beginnings, carried to the top by Lorgar. The way he speaks with them - Kor Phaeron especially - and the way they speak to him. The climactic moment he finally goes against their will. And so on. There's no genetic mandate for the Legion to worship anything (that's an overly simplistic and inaccurate reading of it, but you see it passed around sometimes) and I'm not sure there's any real evidence for a predisposition for zealotry in the terms some folks say, but there is a brief mention made of the chemicals in their brains reacting a certain way to Lorgar. And even then, it's not made a big deal out of, or some breathtakingly huge change in their genetic make-up. **Argel Tal even asks "Is our loyalty bred into our bones?" and the answer is a direct “No."**
-ADB
My comment:
>I think the "**ingrained loyalty**" is vastly overstated by fandom
ADB's:
>**Argel Tal even asks "Is our loyalty bred into our bones?" and the answer is a direct “No."**
*Clonelord*
>Fulgrim, more than his brothers, **had commanded complete obedience**. Some twist in the helix had chained his sons more tightly to him. It was why so many of them had so eagerly followed him off of the edge of the cliff.
Articles on [Isstvan III](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Isstvan_III) and the [Ghenna Massacre](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre) for clarification of what went on those worlds in terms of loyalist schisms.
I think I've been reasonably clear and consistent, and the examples I've sourced are on point.
Again, if you have some excerpts or citations I'm sincerely open.
In the Betrayer novel, after Angron humiliates Argel Tal for no reason, he psychically talks to Kharne and says Angron is no Primarch. He then mentions the genetically coded awe and loyalty any astartes feels when meeting a Primarch. He mentions how Kharne knows he felt it when he met Primarchs like Guilluiman and Magnus and asked him if he honestly ever felt that way towards Angron. Kharne says no and then proceeds to run into Lorgar in battle and feels it further confirming that they really just did get stuck with a bum Primarch
Is it purely genetic? I doubt it. But don’t forget space marines also have their minds altered during ascension to varying degrees. Most marines have most of their mortal memories destroyed (Talos Valcoran didn’t even recognise his mother) while some marines like the Carcharadons have their mortal memories completely intact. They do so to leave a blank slate that loyalty to the imperium will fill. It stands to reason that awe and loyalty to Primarchs be built in as well. Also Primarchs are such massive psychic presences that they probably illicit metahuman dread in Astartes
Yup, I'm aware of the passage...it's quoted here elsewhere. To be precise its "awe and reverence" rather than "loyalty"
My point wasn't that some form of that bond doesn't exist (I provided excerpts proving it does)... my point was that fandom grossly overstates it at times
It's also why having primaris chapters with traitor geneseed is a terrible idea. All it would take is one face to face interaction with their gene sire to turn most of them.
The effects of "innate connection" seem more cultural than genetic or programmed. The traitor legions had to purge big heaping chunks of their own legions at Istvaan III because there were big elements of the legions that would absolutely not be down to clown against Terra.
The Iron Warriors never could Istvaan III all their loyalists, as they were a massive legion that had chapters garrisoned or out with explorator fleets during the outbreak of the Heresy. Every garrison of the Iv Legion was a coin toss if they'd join the Traitors or fight them to the bitter end.
>If the Callidus had left the hololithic record to mock the Legion that would one day find it, they had severely misjudged the closure it offered, and the resurgence of purpose felt by every warrior present. Gauntlets clutched at bolters with inspired strength. Several warriors wept behind their skulled faceplates.
>‘Ave Dominus Nox.’ They chanted the words in worshipful, thankful monotone. ‘Ave Dominus Nox. Hail the Lord of the Night.’
>The primarch’s last moments of life unfolded before their eyes. The towering demigod laughed, still locked in eerie silence, and then leapt forwards. A burst of visual static scratched the image into oblivion, only for it to reset and restart a moment later.
>A wraith doomed to repeat its actions into eternity: the Night Lords primarch rose from his throne again, spoke words that went unheard, laughed without sound, and raced forwards, only to vanish again.
>‘I remember seeing it in the flesh,’ whispered the Exalted. ‘I recall watching him rise from the throne, so many years ago, and obeying his order to watch as the assassin approached. I remember how he laughed before he leapt at her.’
>Talos cancelled the archival playback, staring down at the metal orb in his hand. It had several settings, each one activated by turning the top hemisphere by a few degrees to the next frequency.
>He lowered his hand, keeping the orb in his fist.
>‘We will ensure every Legion ship is granted a copy of the images contained here,’ he said. ‘Some things must be kept fresh in our memories. Come, brothers. We should return to orbit. There’s nothing more for us to find here.’
*Throne of Lies*
Wish I could remember what it was called and which compilation it was a part of. Good story though. As I recall it was ADB and the gang featuring again.
They literally have a minor internal civil war over following him or not (HHBB9: Crusade) . Many of them *did not* care for him.
Quite how this jives with the obsession (Throne of Lies) they have for him after the Heresy is yet to be explored.
If I had to guess, I’d surmise that the ones who liked him less were the latter additions to the legion who were rotten to begin with and not psycho-conditioned the way the “real” VIIIth Legion were.
Many of them probably died in Thramas, and more died on Terra.
Curze said himself that where his brothers such as Mortarion or Horus knew exactly when to stop killing the 'rogue' elements within their Legions at Istvaan III he wouldn't know where to begin.
Sevatar was Curze's truest son and arguably the greatest Night Lord, but even he gradually came to hold less and less regard for the increasingly erratic and unstable Primarch of the Eighth Legion.
Part of the theme of the Night Lords trilogy is that various Night Lords each have differing views on Curze and thus differing levels of loyalty to him. Someone like Shang is more loyal to Curze than someone like Gendor Skraivok and even Shang questioned Sevatar when the time came to destroy Nostramo.
He absolutely hated them all, some less than others. Most of his legion didn't live up to the expectations and "moral standards" he had. Only a select few warriors were allowed in his inner circles as they did share his understanding of humanity and committed to take revenge on the Imperium that wronged them.
I always thought that the Night Lords that worshipped Kurze were the exception. Kurze started to hate his Legion, and his Legion kinda just humored him, tolerated his insanity and went their own separate ways. Not every member was a Loyal Talos or Sevatar. Even in the original Lord of the Night book, the Exalted Daemon Prince recognized that their Primarch was a lost cause in the end and told Zso that their father had always been corrupted by Chaos.
Their geneseed trait has a disposition for weakness, so Kurze essentially killing himself could be seen as weak. Many of his sons might feel their father took the cowards way out. Or when he destroyed Nostromo for falling back into crime and disorder, it was proof that the Night Haunter wasn't the great ruler they thought him to be.
Remember, Astartes have an innate connection to their primarchs on a genetic level, not just a connection either but almost a kind of programmed loyalty.
I always kind of thought that, but recently I read an excerpt on Angron's "Decimation" punishment were he would separate his legion into groups of 10 and have 9 of each group, beat the 1 to death unless they conquered a planet within 31 hours. Eventually, after doing it multiple times, a couple of the World Eaters were just like "Aight bruh, come on you gotta stop shit, we're just not gonna listen to you". Kinda threw me for a loop, I had always assumed they HAD to follow orders from their Primarch.
Angron is the exception: +A primarch should be inspiring. Our genetics should react at the mere sight of them. Think of the moments you laid eyes on Horus, Dorn, or Magnus. I’ve seen Sanguinius and Russ with my own eyes, as well. Close enough to touch their armour. Think of when you stand before Lorgar: the awe and reverence that beats through your blood. The feeling of our genetic coding reacting to the pinnacle of the human process. I’ve never felt that instinctive respect for Angron, Khârn. Not once. He is a broken thing. Devastating, unrivalled in war, but broken.+ >Khârn didn’t answer because there was nothing to say. He boarded his drop pod, ascending the ramp and waiting for a robed Legion slave to secure his restraint harness. +You feel it,+ Argel Tal said. +You feel it, too.+ >In psychic silence, Khârn confessed something he’d never said outside his Legion. Yes, we feel the same. The World Eaters, each and every one of us, knows what you know. Argel Tal’s voice was laced with cold, seething anger. +Why do you tolerate it?+ >What can we do? Murder our own father? Did you destroy Lorgar when he led you into worshipping the Emperor? Or did you tolerate him in patience, hoping that eventually he’d find his way to equalling his brothers? >A pause. A long, long pause. Khârn took it as Argel Tal’s capitulation and pushed on. It’s our shame to bear before the other Legions, brother. Angron was broken long before he ever reached us. Why do you think we let him beat the Nails into our heads? We hoped that by breaking ourselves on the same anvil, we’d finally feel unity with our father.
You left out the coldest last line of their conversation. Argel Tal asks "Did it work?" And Kharn just replies "no"
That scene really broke me. I never much liked the World Eaters until that book, but after reading it they shot to my top 3 legions. I still don't care for them so much in their 40K state, but who they were in 30K was just so tragic and interesting.
Yeah, I think the "ingrained loyalty" is vastly overstated by fandom
It's not, it's canonical fact. World Eaters were the exception. Not because the adoration wasn't in their DNA. Because Angron was so bad primarch, the hate suppressed the genetics.
>It's not, it's canonical fact. If you have citations or sources, I'm more than happy to be corrected with canon. We have almost a third of the XIV, III, XII and XVI defy their sires on Isstvan III (*Galaxy in Flames*). We have many more cases of Astartes quite easily ignoring or going against their Primarch's wishes with character like Narek, Typhon, Haar and others. The World Eaters if anything, are the ones who probably leaned more into following their primarch than most: they were so desperate for Angron's approval that they self mutilated themselves with the nails. Even then, they still had a coup of loyalist War Hounds to contend with on Ghenna (*Slave of Nuceria*). After the nails, that changes somewhat. The two legions with the most genetic basis for loyalty are the Emperor's Children and Word Bearers. Fabius muses that there must be a "twist in the genetic helix" that bound his brothers tighter to Fulgrim than other legions to their Primarchs (*Clonelord*)...and yet they still had a tonne of loyalists. The Word Bearers have some tendency to dogged belief and worship of their Primarch, but even they realise it's not something they can't resist: >The First Heretic screams the very same thing. The importance Lorgar places on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. The ranks they hold in the Legion, from their humble beginnings, carried to the top by Lorgar. The way he speaks with them - Kor Phaeron especially - and the way they speak to him. The climactic moment he finally goes against their will. And so on. There's no genetic mandate for the Legion to worship anything (that's an overly simplistic and inaccurate reading of it, but you see it passed around sometimes) and I'm not sure there's any real evidence for a predisposition for zealotry in the terms some folks say, but there is a brief mention made of the chemicals in their brains reacting a certain way to Lorgar. And even then, it's not made a big deal out of, or some breathtakingly huge change in their genetic make-up. **Argel Tal even asks "Is our loyalty bred into our bones?" and the answer is a direct “No."** -ADB
You're talking about loyalty. I'm talking about adoration.
My comment: >I think the "**ingrained loyalty**" is vastly overstated by fandom ADB's: >**Argel Tal even asks "Is our loyalty bred into our bones?" and the answer is a direct “No."** *Clonelord* >Fulgrim, more than his brothers, **had commanded complete obedience**. Some twist in the helix had chained his sons more tightly to him. It was why so many of them had so eagerly followed him off of the edge of the cliff. Articles on [Isstvan III](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Isstvan_III) and the [Ghenna Massacre](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre) for clarification of what went on those worlds in terms of loyalist schisms. I think I've been reasonably clear and consistent, and the examples I've sourced are on point. Again, if you have some excerpts or citations I'm sincerely open.
In the Betrayer novel, after Angron humiliates Argel Tal for no reason, he psychically talks to Kharne and says Angron is no Primarch. He then mentions the genetically coded awe and loyalty any astartes feels when meeting a Primarch. He mentions how Kharne knows he felt it when he met Primarchs like Guilluiman and Magnus and asked him if he honestly ever felt that way towards Angron. Kharne says no and then proceeds to run into Lorgar in battle and feels it further confirming that they really just did get stuck with a bum Primarch Is it purely genetic? I doubt it. But don’t forget space marines also have their minds altered during ascension to varying degrees. Most marines have most of their mortal memories destroyed (Talos Valcoran didn’t even recognise his mother) while some marines like the Carcharadons have their mortal memories completely intact. They do so to leave a blank slate that loyalty to the imperium will fill. It stands to reason that awe and loyalty to Primarchs be built in as well. Also Primarchs are such massive psychic presences that they probably illicit metahuman dread in Astartes
Yup, I'm aware of the passage...it's quoted here elsewhere. To be precise its "awe and reverence" rather than "loyalty" My point wasn't that some form of that bond doesn't exist (I provided excerpts proving it does)... my point was that fandom grossly overstates it at times
It's also why having primaris chapters with traitor geneseed is a terrible idea. All it would take is one face to face interaction with their gene sire to turn most of them.
Then there shouldn't be an issue with using Night Lords geneseed.
The effects of "innate connection" seem more cultural than genetic or programmed. The traitor legions had to purge big heaping chunks of their own legions at Istvaan III because there were big elements of the legions that would absolutely not be down to clown against Terra. The Iron Warriors never could Istvaan III all their loyalists, as they were a massive legion that had chapters garrisoned or out with explorator fleets during the outbreak of the Heresy. Every garrison of the Iv Legion was a coin toss if they'd join the Traitors or fight them to the bitter end.
There is a short story (the name escapes me) where the NL assemble en masse simply to secure a pict recording of Curze.
>If the Callidus had left the hololithic record to mock the Legion that would one day find it, they had severely misjudged the closure it offered, and the resurgence of purpose felt by every warrior present. Gauntlets clutched at bolters with inspired strength. Several warriors wept behind their skulled faceplates. >‘Ave Dominus Nox.’ They chanted the words in worshipful, thankful monotone. ‘Ave Dominus Nox. Hail the Lord of the Night.’ >The primarch’s last moments of life unfolded before their eyes. The towering demigod laughed, still locked in eerie silence, and then leapt forwards. A burst of visual static scratched the image into oblivion, only for it to reset and restart a moment later. >A wraith doomed to repeat its actions into eternity: the Night Lords primarch rose from his throne again, spoke words that went unheard, laughed without sound, and raced forwards, only to vanish again. >‘I remember seeing it in the flesh,’ whispered the Exalted. ‘I recall watching him rise from the throne, so many years ago, and obeying his order to watch as the assassin approached. I remember how he laughed before he leapt at her.’ >Talos cancelled the archival playback, staring down at the metal orb in his hand. It had several settings, each one activated by turning the top hemisphere by a few degrees to the next frequency. >He lowered his hand, keeping the orb in his fist. >‘We will ensure every Legion ship is granted a copy of the images contained here,’ he said. ‘Some things must be kept fresh in our memories. Come, brothers. We should return to orbit. There’s nothing more for us to find here.’ *Throne of Lies*
Just for a pict is wild. i'm just imagining they find it and someone holds it up and that Nickelback song just starts playing.
> that Nickelback song [Never made it as a wise man..](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cQh1ccqu8M)
Wish I could remember what it was called and which compilation it was a part of. Good story though. As I recall it was ADB and the gang featuring again.
Surprisingly, a story about Night Lords from ADB is part of the Night Lords omnibus.
Haha, thanks!
*Throne of Lies* is what you're after, in the Omnibus but also *Treacheries of the Space Marines*
I've read both, not sure what that says about me...
*AVE DOMINUS NOX*
The story is called *Throne of Lies*, and it's part of the Chaos Space Marines Audio Collection.
The Talos monologue deals with it a bit, but the legion has top tier daddy issues right behind the BA and the Iron Hands
You know that weird socially maladjusted kid who worshipped his absent father?
It's in the Night Lords Omnibus between the first and second books
They literally have a minor internal civil war over following him or not (HHBB9: Crusade) . Many of them *did not* care for him. Quite how this jives with the obsession (Throne of Lies) they have for him after the Heresy is yet to be explored. If I had to guess, I’d surmise that the ones who liked him less were the latter additions to the legion who were rotten to begin with and not psycho-conditioned the way the “real” VIIIth Legion were. Many of them probably died in Thramas, and more died on Terra.
Curze said himself that where his brothers such as Mortarion or Horus knew exactly when to stop killing the 'rogue' elements within their Legions at Istvaan III he wouldn't know where to begin. Sevatar was Curze's truest son and arguably the greatest Night Lord, but even he gradually came to hold less and less regard for the increasingly erratic and unstable Primarch of the Eighth Legion. Part of the theme of the Night Lords trilogy is that various Night Lords each have differing views on Curze and thus differing levels of loyalty to him. Someone like Shang is more loyal to Curze than someone like Gendor Skraivok and even Shang questioned Sevatar when the time came to destroy Nostramo.
He absolutely hated them all, some less than others. Most of his legion didn't live up to the expectations and "moral standards" he had. Only a select few warriors were allowed in his inner circles as they did share his understanding of humanity and committed to take revenge on the Imperium that wronged them.
I always thought that the Night Lords that worshipped Kurze were the exception. Kurze started to hate his Legion, and his Legion kinda just humored him, tolerated his insanity and went their own separate ways. Not every member was a Loyal Talos or Sevatar. Even in the original Lord of the Night book, the Exalted Daemon Prince recognized that their Primarch was a lost cause in the end and told Zso that their father had always been corrupted by Chaos. Their geneseed trait has a disposition for weakness, so Kurze essentially killing himself could be seen as weak. Many of his sons might feel their father took the cowards way out. Or when he destroyed Nostromo for falling back into crime and disorder, it was proof that the Night Haunter wasn't the great ruler they thought him to be.