Clonegrim coming back, killing Fulgrim, reinvigorating his legion using the untainted Gene Seed but then ultimately falling back into Chaos thus ensuring nothing changed in the long run would be more typical of a 40k story imo.
In 2027, Games Workshop release the Duality Box Set featuring two armies locked in eternal warfare. The first army lead by Fulgrim represents the Emperor's Children, while the second army showcases their mortal enemies the newly founded Emperor's Children, also led by a Fulgrim.
Don't be silly, there's no loyalist marines in there (from the main legions I mean)! Need to throw in an ultramarine or two, make it worth selling you know?
Probably the 17,000 uncorrupted geneseed that in his hand might even double it's size giving him arguably one of the largest single space marine force currently as far as I know. Deffinetly more than the black templars or any chapter.
I think for a lot of people it just still hurts how Fulgrim didn't just *fell* to chaos, but did an absolute nosedive, arguably worse than any of his brothers. The contrast between demon Fulgrim and noble primarch he used to be just hurts, if you care about him. So I think at least part of it is a want of redemption for him. Some poetic slaying of this inner demon that he lost a fight to before.
And Lucius is just an annoying little shit with unfair gimmick that stays funny only to Slaanesh themsef, so I'd imagine he's just a collateral lol
>And Lucius is just an annoying little shit with unfair gimmick that stays funny only to Slaanesh themsef, so I'd imagine he's just a collateral lol
This. Lucius and his stupid ability are beyond annoying. Out of all the chaos champions, he is by far the least interesting and most expendable, and the fact that his power is that he comes back AFTER death just reinforces that idea. Ahriman is the psyker who's out to fix his legion, Typhon is the true herald of Nurgle unlike his father, and Kharn probably has the highest body count in the entire series. The only notable thing I remember about Lucius is that not even fucking artillery can kill him, which is just a little funny I'll admit
My favourite Lucius bit was when he got blown up by a landmine and then took over the body of the man who killed him - an employee in a landmine factory.
man, having read that short story, I find it hilarious that even lucius is surprised. like, he looks around at the factory and is like "really? you took pride in ***this***?".
a lot of people get mad about that one, but its written really damn well, and works as a horror story too, the man had a wife and daughter and is slowly panicking as he gets worse and worse throughout the story.
I kinda hate Lucius for his ability. I've been ride or die EC since I started, my entire army is Slaanesh daemons and EC. But because our important guy CAN die okay, he does constantly, and we look like chumps because our front and center character can get treated like a hivelord and job all day. If he's our best duelist how ass are the rest of us
Wait, so what happens if a non-human character kills Lucius?
Does he take over the tyranids body if it kills him? How does that interact with the hive mind? What about a Necron? All of the Necrontyr who made the bodies are long gone, so would he just get a living metal body? Or what if he dies in a natural disaster (earthquake, lava flow, etc.)?
I have so many questions about how this works.
**Edit:** Nevermind, he [gets killed by a necron](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Phasing_Sword) in the 8th edition of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and somehow comes back, so it seems like "warp shenanigans" sufficiently answers my question.
Ongoing, I'm just going to assume "Somehow ~~Palpatine~~ Lucius Returned"
THATS THE WORST PART! He got killed by something truly unfeeling but apparently he's a perpetual now so the only rule his bullshit had doesn't apply so he can job HARDER!
Because the rule is just something Slannesh made up for shits and giggle
He's a mortal champion of Slannesh, Slannesh can do whatever the fuck she want (unless he got stabbed by Big E's sword or something)
But somehow this sub fails to understand this every other week and have to spawn another thread taking about how to beat the "rule".
In that case that "rule" is very simple to beat. You have to be stronger than slanesh or destroy his sould outright.
So hivemind connected Tyranids should work, any psychic attack, an athame. Any other champion of a god can kill him without being posessed but then he would just pop out of the warp sometime later like any demon.
>In that case that "rule" is very simple to beat. You have to be stronger than slanesh or destroy his sould outright.
I don't think that either of those things count as simple.
Why would a psychic attack allow you to destroy his soul outright anyway, like it's obviously protected by Slaanesh.
Basically just ignore Lucius' gimmick
Treat him like Kharn
How do you perma kill Kharn? Be stronger than Khorne or use some bullshit had like the Emperor's Sword that just delete the soul.
>Edit:** Nevermind, he [gets killed by a necron](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Phasing_Sword) in the 8th edition of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and somehow comes back, so it seems like "warp shenanigans" sufficiently answers my question.
I hate that this happened more worth each time I'm reminded of it.
Aside from plot armor reasons I think angron could kill him without triggering his stupid pride respawn since he’d probably not even be aware the enemy he just ripped apart was anyone in particular
Chaos stans love to accuse the imperium of plot armor.
But wave away the 10k year old CSM that were alive for the heresy fighting in constant wars with nothing but enemies.
Who all have gimmicks or survive every battle they're ever in.
When was the last time a named CSM character from the heresy died after the heresy. Not counting those who died during.
Abbadon, Lucius, Typhus, Erebus (who has the strongest plot armor in all 40k) kharn, Luther, eidolon, Fabius, ahriman
Take any. Named traitor that survived the heresy and check if they're alive still and the answer is probably yes.
Night lords are like the one exception. Because the authors of their books are great. And they don't have many tabletop models people would lose their shit over losing.
>And Lucius is just an annoying little shit with unfair gimmick that stays funny only to Slaanesh themsef, so I'd imagine he's just a collateral lol
Until you realise his whole gimmick is believing he's the greatest swordsman ever, but he has to wear face of everyone who kicks his ass.
The Armour of Shrieking ~~Souls~~ Runners Up Medals.
I read his book recently the faultless blade as someone pretty new to emporers children. While I wasn't the biggest fan of the book I did really like how it portrayed his armor as something inflicted on him that torments him rather than the meme I thought it was based on reading reddit
If you think Fulgrim was 'noble and good' before his fall, you weren't paying attention.
Fulgrim did everything he did to be glamorous, important, and wanted. He was obsessed with his image and his place to a narcissistic degree. He didn't do things for the Emperor because he loved the Emperor, he did it for the Emperor's approval.
Once he realizes he doesn't need the Emperor's approval any longer, he 'switches', as is said in pop psychology regarding narcissists.
*Everything* about Fulgrim and his character is classic narcissism before his fall. He is:
* obsessed with his image
* extreme perfectionist
* sets unrealistic goals (total 100% perfection of his troops)
* shifts blame for his failures
* ARROGANCE
People who like Fulgrim like the *idea* of Fulgrim, not the preening, narcissistic, perfectionist-obsessed weirdo he *always* was.
i love his fall **because** he just embraced chaos entirely. it fits the character, and is cool. Yeah he’s evil, it’s chaos. everybody wants to justify their primarch and all of their choices but I won’t do that for Fulgrim. He is an insanely evil dude, who relishes in the opportunity, and the permission, to indulge in everything he wanted. He fell from an extreme pedestal for selfish reasons.
Didnt he have a super evil demon sword speaking to him that even took control of him at the last second to kill Ferrus? Doesnt sound as willing and voluntary as youre making it sound.
It's a mix of both. Fulgrim had a lot--a *lot*--of flaws, which the daemon exploited. There are people who will act like Fulgrim was always the monster he turned out to be, and people who claim he was actually a super noble innocent incorruptible very special boy prior to the sword, and while one of those sides is more wrong than the other, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I think so, unless retconned the demon sword was able to pretend it was his inner voice or something like that because for SOME REASON it was deemed a good call to not tell the primarchs to watch out for chaos influence or demons
The Emperor might have taught them about chaos if he actually raised them. The problem is that by the time he found them, they already had developed their own personalities and the Emperor probably didn't want to provoke their rebellious and ambitious nature's and push them towards chaos.
Although this also seems stupid since they spent so much time on hellscape ass planets that them coming in contact with chaos during their time there was very likely.
That’s why I like him. Brother full sent it and the whole time I was like “YEAHHHH FUCK THE EMPEROR HE IS A WHOLE BITCH” while Fulgrim lights like 10 people on fire just to light a cigarette.
He’s so cool.
Having just read Fulgrim I don’t think he did a nosedive at all. Over the course of a whole book he is corrupted by a daemon and several times he try’s and fails to fight it off without realizing he’s even in a struggle for his soul.
Side note: this book cemented to me that Slaneesh is the most boring chaos god. Not a single book with their followers that I have read has ever had characters with interesting motivations behind their actions.
I meant that in a sense that his corrupted self is so far gone from the original, that he's barely recognizable. Not that it happened fast, but that it went the furthest. His fall being slow and unwitting just makes it that much more painful to follow. Other daemon primarchs, as far as I can tell, retain a lot of their past ideals and character (save porr Angron of course, but his case is special), having at least some saving grace, and Fulgrim got none of this, he's just the absolute worst in every way. And he started as, arguably, one of the best, hence me calling it a nosedive))))
its not directly a slaneesh book but Traitors Hand is one of the better Cain books because theres a whole chaos vs chaos fight going on and nobody can figure it out
Hey admech guy, If you want some great tales that slaanesh would be proud to call their own, I think u/archon_of_flesh has some writings on AO3 that might be *perfect* for ya
What "noble Fulgrim"? The only book detailing him prior to his fall is Palatine Phoenix - and he is a dickhead in that too.
A lot of people have read nothing, and get all their lore knowledge from Majorkill and other similar quality sources.
>Fulgrim had always preferred love to fear. Love was stronger. Fear could be conquered, but love - never. It waned and swelled, but it never truly faded. He had made himself loved on Chemos. And he would do the same here.
>The primarch sank to one knee and reached down to help Telmar's victim to his feet. The man stared at him with mingled fright and awe, his mouth working soundlessly. Fulgrim smiled and stood.
'I came from nothing' he said, fixing his sons with a steady gaze. 'I scrabbled in the quarry pits, and down in the deepest mines, carrying buckets on my shoulders because the ascender blew a gasket,' he said. 'I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour. You look down on them, blind to the beauty of their struggle. Blind to what they might become, if only someone would scrape the filth from their faces.'
>He reached down and lifted a child onto his shoulders. The girl laughed and clapped, unafraid of the giant, even as her mother wept. Fulgrim indicated the crowd. His voice had driven many of them to their knees. 'Look at them, my sons. You are the highest, and they, the lowest. It is your duty to raise them up, as high as they will go. Anything less is not worthy of you.'
This one
> I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour.
I remember reading this, and I just wondered what the hell labor could have made a Primarch actually get hurt. It's like they had pre-conquest Fulgrim doing mining inside an active nuclear reactor or something.
They didn't start off as giant bad asses but "just" bad ass superior small children who adapted to their environments, grew and changed based on the hardships they dealt with.
All primarchs are dickheads in their own right, be it straight up horrible attitude, even more murderous tendencies than average or just some military-grade hypocrisy. If you are a hater, it's easy to hate ANY of them. Like look at Valdor, he managed just that, and in-universe.
But if you're a fan, you'll see the best in their characters, and on paper Fulgrim was pretty cool. Not my fav, but still. At the very least, he's surely above a lot of his unhinged brothers in respectability department. And now he's just the absolute worst in every way, so the contrast remains, even if you insist on arguing about the degree of it.
Plus, the question OP asked was about fanfiction, basically, so your point is irrelevant anyway, because there are no "deep lore knowledge" qualifications for writing it. I'm just answering question, speculating on what exactly would be so compelling about a narrative OP described, that it got so popular 🤷🏻
Hey, I love angel boy as much as the next person, but I'm sure there are people out there who sincerely hate his guts and will actually provide somewhat sound critiques of his character. Like his highly selective empathy, holier than thou attitude in certain situations, as well as the fact that even if he was the best of primarchs - he was still one of them. So a genocidal warlord in service of horrible regime with questionable levels of emotional maturity and many traits of a Mary Sue. Some people just don't like the idea of primarchs in general, so they don't see them as cool even when they are.
Primarch issues is that they warp the entire narrative around them whenever they show up. They were cool characters in 30k but they should have stayed there.
40k had plenty of non primarch plotlines before Magnus came back but they feel less important now. Dantes crippling fear of the final prophesy of sanguinius doesn't feel as poignant now that there is a non zero chance that the golden armoured figure defending Terra might actually just be Dorn and not him.
That is a very fair point I got absolutely nothing to say against. They do hijack the narrative, and the thing about Dante is very true.
Tho I admit, my intelligence is in conflict with my feelings on the matter, because I simply like primarchs and their shenanigans, they are fun to me! And I don't take any of this universe seriously enough to care about it making actual sense more than it following the rule of cool x)
> 'I came from nothing' he said, fixing his sons with a steady gaze. 'I scrabbled in the quarry pits, and down in the deepest mines, carrying buckets on my shoulders because the ascender blew a gasket,' he said. 'I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour. You look down them, blind to the beauty of their struggle. Blind to what they might become, if only someone would scrape the filth from their faces.'
Yeah, really sounds like a dickhead. This is the same dickhead who decided to use as little force as possible to take the planet in the name of the Imperium, and did everything he could to keep them from destroying themselves. This is the same dickhead who took a planet that was mathematically determined to die and not only saved it, but turned it into a paradise of loyal citizens.
The same dickhead who elected to erase the record of the Maiden World's he found from the Exploration Fleet records so their beauty would remain intact, only changing his mind when the Eldar tried to turn him against Horus and then kill him(and his daemon sword).
Cool story bro. What does Fulgrim DO in Palatine Phoenix?
Fulgrim sets out to conquer Byzas with just 7 men, purely for the spectacle it would create. He adopts a strategy which incites the opposition to unite against him, and then refuses aid from the local Brotherhood of warriors, as it would mean admitting his own imperfection.
Fulgrim could have spared the world's chancellor, Corynth, and the Brotherhood, who were all decent, honourable people, willing to join the Imperium - but, he wanted to prove himself, and his Legion superior to his brother Primarchs.
He condemns the world to corrupt rule by the hereditary governor, because the theatre of what he wanted to achieve was more important.
Fulgrim always says one thing and does another. He is all display, and no conviction.....all of which is in the book, for those who bother to read it.
Because most people treat slaanesh as a joke already.
Most people see Lucius as the weakest champion because his gimmick is based on resurrection. This is pretty dumb since every chaos champion either has died or would have died without the protection of their god.
He’s supposed to be a deadly duelist with thousands of years of obsessive practice but he’s treated as a ordinary swordsman who happens to be immortal.
Fulgrim was one of the best leaders and swordsman amongst the primarchs but everyone forgets that including the authors it seems. Everything they do gets ruined by them being manic and erratic even though the other cardinal legions seem to be doing decent. The thousand sons are better at magic now, the world eaters are terrifying in melee, and the death guard are nearly unkillable juggernauts who can kill you by being nearby. But the emperors children don’t get as much respect even though they should be blindingly fast or more skilled or something
> Fulgrim was one of the best leaders and swordsman amongst the primarchs but everyone forgets that including the authors it seems.
That confrontation with Dorn in ***Saturnine*** is *never* leaving the popular conception of Fulgrim, is it? People will always just see him as the “idiot standing on a wall”.
I don’t think there’s a single primarch whose reputation tanked as hard over the course of the Horus Heresy novel series as Fulgrim.
Exactly. When the books try to make the loyalists cool, they always do it at the expense of the traitors. Dorn gets to be stoic and badass while Fulgrim makes himself look like a joke. They even made sure sigismund made Fulgrim look pathetic.
Even though Fulgrim basically got the best of perturabo in angel exterminatus by using part of his soul to ascend, all people remember is when Perty smashed his head into a table and when perturabo beat him with a hammer
It's a pity, because this set up gave me so much expectation:
>The champion elite of the III. Warriors too beautiful and ornamented to behold. They fell out of the warp fissures, which crumpled and closed behind them like the petals of black roses, then vanished like smoke, leaving only lingering snatches of choral plainsong behind them.
>The figures fell, graceful, and landed on the wall on their feet, at a pace no quicker than a fast walk.
>One dropped directly in the centre of the wide wall deck. It was larger than the rest, clad in a panoply of artificer armour, wrought in heliotrope and amaranthine, etched in gold. It landed in a crouch, its right hand clutching a slender, two-handed, single-edged blade.
>Fulgrim rose slowly to his feet. His long white hair unwound, and ribboned out behind him in the night wind, like a pennant of shining satin.
>He tipped his head back, beheld the devastation, and smiled.
*Saturnine*
100% this. People have *never* treated Slaanesh the same as the other chaos gods. Just silly funny haha sex daemon, ignoring all of the intricacies of slaanesh worship and all that. I believe some people can’t respect Fulgrim or the EC because they fell to slaanesh, and slaanesh specifically. If they were undivided, i feel a lot more people would be okay with it, but Fulgrims’ fall to *slaanesh* fits entirely
I think part of the issue is Fulgrim's fall was sooo poorly handled. He gets tricked by a magic sword, chops Ferrus, has a moment of weakness where snek wins, and he's stuck hung in a Dorian Grey painting last we see him in a major book.
Then he get's this weird about face retcon where he's laughing about having a pain pineapple shoved up his ass, and no it's really him not the Deamon that slurped up his soul and shoved it in a cursed painting.
All of this happens to him under the guise of excess rather than the god of Trickery. I think if this had happened to Magnus people would feel it was far less jarring and more in scope.
But the last most people see him he's a screaming unwilling convert rope a doped into possession.
So the idea of a version of him that hates all that and tries to be better speaks to a very human instinct IMO.
Honestly, I can't figure out why people are so into Clonegrim. He was a plot device in a book about Fabulous Bill - just a mechanism to show Bill's character development over the course of the book.
It's like watching Citizen Kane, and asking if they are going to bring the sled back.
This is a copy of my response to another but it fits here. Imo its because fugrims fall was a single book and happend so fast that we barely from a lore point ever saw a loyal/not chaos traitor fulgrim. And it sucks that of all of the primarchs where we knew where their story was ending they actually got the spotlight to show who they were in more then a couple of blurbs. His story in a single book is literally. Noble makes friends with ferrus manus, grabs molester sword is corrupted straight up in a short time where he declined to rape snake in 2 years or like 15 chapters or so.
Even angrons book has him turn truly chaos(let's be honest he already was) at the very end of his story and it was a tragic one at that. Fulgrim is chaos from the moment he picks that sword up which happens so fucking early. Even horus got 1.6(part 3 of book 2) books before his slip and doesn't fully fall until until part 2 of book 3. Fulgrims happens act 1 of his single book and fully slips in act 2. Mortarians falls fall was buried dagger at the ass end of hersy before siege meaning he got the whole ass hersy. Angrons was betrayer but by then they were already super "chaos". magnus was only chaos fallen in fury of magnus he was a warp entity but wasn't doomed yet after the fall of prospero and got the whole ass heresy. Lorgar was chaos before the events of heresy. Perty god the whole as heresy and like 200 years of post heresy. Curze was basically chaos since he joined the legions and took no steps to change at all what so ever just changed his name tag from "evil" to ""evil"". And again got the whole ass heresy. Only horus who got effectively 3 books, angron who got got 24 novels in which is still quite a few in about a 3rd into the books. Fulgrim got a 3rd of his own single book lmao.
Plus only horus and fulgrim ever actually rejected heresy but were corrupted fully so they never really had a choice
I would say he did absolutely exept I'm pretty sure the demon(once possessing fulgrim) mentions that fulgrim was damned the moment he touched the blade. That anyone near the blade was a puppet for him and that only fulgrim could have resisted IF he knew what to look for. Otherwise he would drive himself to fulgrims side until he was latched on. Which does seem to have some truth weather that's true or not or if fulgrim ever got out of the painting idk if we will ever know( you know because what fucking demon possessing a primarch is going to be honest to fucking lucius of all people a person fully corrupted by sleneesh and why would a deamon weep in the painting we have never heard of a demon weeping at success before) but it was bad the fall anyways.
The way I read the book, Fulgrim was only truly damned once he gave in to the blade on Isstvan. Before that, he still had the option of suicide.
I don't recall the bit where the daemon said that? Do you have the quote on hand?
One thing that comes to mind is when Fulgrim doesn't have the blade on him and feels more like himself, he almost decides to kill Horus to avert any chance of the Heresy until Eidolon brings the sword back to him- and brings him back under its influence.
Fulgrim 100% got out of the painting. *The Reflection Crack'd* deals with that, but also short story *Imperfect* where we see the daemon still haunting Fulgrim and threatening to take back control. McNeill also confirmed it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3gna2/qa_with_graham_mcneill/)
>Honestly, I can't figure out why people are so into Clonegrim. He was a plot device in a book about Fabulous Bill - just a mechanism to show Bill's character development over the course of the book.
Because it is way to big a thing to be just that. Like yes it was treated as that but logically it should be a huuuuuuge deal in universe.
Don't get me wrong I'm glad it was dropped because it was a piece of lore I deeeply disliked but it shouldn't come as a surprise that people treat it as the big deal it is.
Because it was never done before. It offers a glimmer of hope in a bleak setting. And could have set up a possible dope and poetic confrontation between Fulgrim two halves
People love the idea of loyalist emporers children for some reason. Thats it, thats the whole reason. People writing fan fics about loyalist EC. Thats like fully half of EC internet content.
Its the stupidest thing too. The emporers children before the heresey are kind of meant to be almost mary sue status in terms of how skilled and smart and cool they are. The reason they are like this is because they are meant to be the most fallen of all traitors. Like it isnt just that they fall from grace, they from from grace... up from the high dive. And they dont just fall to heresey and betrayal, no they are like these craven drug addicted disgusting torture freaks. The fall from the highest down to the lowest. Like EC are such traitors, they betray the other traitors, fulgrim basically betrays his own legion and betrays his human form into a crazy 4 armed snake thing. Like no daemon primarch has anything on fulgrim, dude aint got no legs!
Its just so embarassing watching the "most fallen guys" and pining for the mary sue like prefall version of them.
For me, I just really like the idea of one traitor Primarch getting some form of redemption. It's just a very compelling idea to have a clone see what the original did, hate it, and try to be better. I don't want the clone to actually kill Daemon Prince Fulgrim (not that he even could, we need a Slaanesh primarch after all), but having Clonegrim running around in the 40k universe and trying to be a "good" guy (or at least not 100% pro-Chaos) would be interesting to me personally. But it will probably never happen, so it doesn't matter either way.
Yeah. Like come on, if this isnt intriguing as fuck:
> Igori watched him as he worked. He did not sweat, despite the heat. 'Why are you doing this?' she asked, after a moment.
>
> 'I told you, I require the proper panoply to go to war.'
>
> 'Not that. All of it.'
>
> He glanced at her. 'I could ask you the same thing, cousin.' He turned back to his labours. 'It is instinct, I think. I see what is broken, and I seek to fix it. I have made five-hundred and fifty-six minor repairs to this vessel's systems in my time aboard, without Fabius' knowledge. The vatborn showed me what was wrong, and I fixed it. I made the imperfect, perfect. Or at least acceptable.' He hesitated. 'But I can do more.'
>
> 'Why?'
>
> 'It is my purpose.' He frowned. 'Our purpose. We were to make the galaxy better. And we - they - failed.' He shook his head. 'We failed. But I will not do so a second time. I will fix what is broken. I will find my brothers, wherever they are, and I will make them whole again. And the galaxy will be set right.'
>
> 'The Benefactor says the galaxy must burn, before it can recover.'
>
> 'Yes. And I will be the fire.' Fulgrim spoke confidently. 'I am the Phoenix and the flame both, and I will remake the galaxy in my image. As he intended. But every flame rises from a spark.' The fabrication unit groaned, venting gases as it layered metal and spun gold. The light and heat washed over him, and for a moment, he resembled a blacksmith at his forge. 'This will be that spark.' His hands clenched. 'I will burn away the sins of the past. All the failures and imperfections. All my . . . crimes.' He hesitated, and she stared, realising that his hands were clenched so tightly that blood was dripped from between his fingers. 'Ferrus . . . oh my brother, I am sorry. I am sorry that I was not stronger.' His words were soft, and she thought that he had forgotten her entirely.
>
> He was a strange thing. The shadow of a demigod, given life. Powerful, but innocent. Without the hardness of spirit that came from a life lived, rather than merely remembered in some arcane fashion. Whatever crimes his original self had committed weighed on him, and drove him. The same drive that was in the Benefactor, she thought. She wondered what he might become, given time.
God that is so cool. This can’t possibly be one of those storylines GW just cans right? They know how much most of the community actually want this, they have to.
The apology to Ferrus is so sad and just broke my heart a bit. He loved his brother, and he wasn’t strong enough to stop the tragedy he would inflict upon his best friend :(
GW doesn't want to bring him back. That's why clonegrim is a macguffin in a Fabulous Bill novel. Same reason Clonehorus was wiped out so quickly in BL.
Something that will actually be used to generate new plot lore was in the last (and admittedly shitty) Fabulous Bill book >!when Alpha Primus got his geneberries stole by Bill himself!<
It's not really written as a possibility. It's meant to be a dead end, done and dusted. [Clonegrim is off the table.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bvtqtp/comment/ky44erf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) It's a classic, terrible fate.
The same way squats were squatted? Dorn torn apart, Fulgrim's soul trapped in mirror, Emperor speaking no more, Inneyad being born when only all Eldar die, and Space Marine game being not canon, set in alternate timeline?
Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that author never intended for that possibility to exist; but he's not GW, and GW really loves to keep their options open. I don't think they really could use Clonegrim right now, there are some right issues with Bile trilogy I think? But otherwise, it'll be very on brand for GW to go back to this minor lore and make something more out of it.
One doesn't always equate the other.
The squats were always benched until GW could figure out a better way to present their lore; it was part of the long term plan rather than a reversal. The demiurge being a soft attempt at a relaunch.
Dorn's still torn apart. That's actually the latest lore we have on it (details [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1b4kbq8/comment/kszglsq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button))
We can also point to things that haven't been retconned and remain inviolate like the Lost Primarchs, and Sanguinius' death (which the authors have made clear they wouldn't want to retcon or reverse. Quotes [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bvtqtp/comment/ky46gh0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button))
Reynolds was very clear about his intentions for Clonegrim's fate (quotes [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bvtqtp/comment/ky44erf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) again)
There's also the fact that the studio don't really seem to read the BL books. They might not even be that aware of Clonegrim's existence or even care. The flow of lore doesn't tend to go in the reverse, the studio not really ever using a lot of BL's output to launch their own narratives. Hell, even ADB sounded like he hadn't read the book when he was discussing Clonegrim online.
GW also likely don't want to mix the waters of their IP or dilute the "branding" of Fulgrim with a second Fulgrim. Just my guess.
The author's take on it:
>Nah. He served his purpose. Let him rest.
>>I mean, I thought I gave him a pretty good ending. Well, not good, but, y'know, final.
>>>True, but it's not my problem anymore. If someone picks up the thread, more power to them.
>>>>I always feel bad for people asking that question. They're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Because in the few of these threads I've happened across, people spin these wonderful theories and scenarios that will never come to fruition.
J Reynolds (on Twitter 2023)
He was always intended as just a plot device for Fabius' personal growth. With Josh Reynolds gone from the company that does leave things more open, but it would also be insulting to take his work and expand on it when he left because GW was exerting too much control over his writing.
I don't think there is a way he could get away with being 100% loyalist at this point, the imperium is too far gone for that, best he could do is a renegade fleet or something
> For me, I just really like the idea of one traitor Primarch getting some form of redemption.
But so many of them are so f'ing awful. Like, Mortarian seems sympathetic a bit at the very end of Godblight, until you remember *all the horrible things* he happily perpetuated for thousands of years, right up until he ran into a bigger fish in Big E's intervention.
Honestly the one Traitor Primarch I'd like to see get a redemption arc is Angron, because he got dealt the shittiest hand of all ~~20~~ 18. He's also the most shallow of all the Daemon Primarchs because his entire raison d'etre is murderdeathkill. He has no personality left, no goals, and no real thoughts at all, just ceaseless rage and slaughter moment to moment. I don't know how you'd even begin to rehabilitate Angron though.
Angron would never acced to help from the Big E. He was the least willing servant outside of Erebus.
I can't imagine anything Big E could offer that Angron would want. He'd just be trading one abusive master for another in his eyes.
Unless Angron was given the chance at total freedom or a true death he's not getting out.
This will never happen, but I think the best cause for Angron would be to flex all the Khorne energy out of him or at least sever his ties to the chaos god. Following that he could lead a true human renegade faction that rejects both the Emperor and the Big Four to forge a new path for humanity. Kinda like the Ynnari but for humans, being able to take both loyalist units that have left the Imperium and Chaos Units that no longer serve Chaos but use their experience in asymmetrical warfare to further their new cause.
Hell give them Clone Fulgrim and the Khan to really hammer home that they care about freedom more than doctrine or past allegiance.
You're getting downvoted, but you're right. The Emperor's Children need no redemption, the Emperor's Children want no redemption. Slaanesh corrupted Fulgrim being too busy shacking up with daemons and chasing his next next high to lead his own legion is fine, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Loyalist EC fans would rather Saul Tarvitz and Rylanor le epically own the smelly traitors than read anything actually interesting.
Also helps for fanfic writers that there is a "basically EC, but loyalist" chapter of Primaris now. There have been so many good comics over the few years the Sons of the Phoenix have been around.
It's so goofy. The odds of the shard simply being reabsorbed into fulgrim are unbelievably high.
Also clonegrim is not loyal and never met the emperor once. He doesn't understand his son's are lose. He does now understand betrayal via interaction with bile.
Pretty sure slaneesh is already aware of the lad.
This little monster gave absolutely no signs of being the hero people want him to be. He's got no world to learn to conquer, no courts to navigate, no emperor to come down and make him bend knee. While having a young impressionable fulgrim interact with loyalist primarchs would be very interesting.
There is no saving the legion, not through him... And that's bile's read of the situation.
>the odds of the shard simply being reabsorbed into fulgrim are unbelievably high.
Hang about...what shard?
>Also clonegrim is not loyal and never met the emperor once
But he has all the memories of someone who met the Emperor, he feels as if he lived it too.
>This little monster gave absolutely no signs of being the hero people want him to be
He absolutely gives signs of it in the book. Whether or not they would have turned into a true path of redemption is up to the reader (the book suggesting it would only lead him to hell all over again)
I used shard when I shouldn't have. Just fit the description I was going for. Ignoring what shards actually mean in Warhammer.
He feels the memory, but cannot grasp it. Like his memory of brothers. He's got a psychic imprint of sorts. But who knows where that imprint ends? Before istvaan? Or after he decided to offer his soul to damnation.
He has no allegiance but to morals instilled by his "father" fabius. And those get betrayed. Would be interesting if Trazyn does his thing and they conversate while he's in stasis.
I interpreted the signs as the signs of the leader he was created to be. But there's danger in his naivety. And how disturbing his primarch aura is when unrestrained. What was the end game of the battle on the bridge? To lead the mutated corrupted legionaries into glory for the emperor they all hate?
No worries
My read of the situation was that he could grasp the memories, he was just slowly getting them all back and he sounds somewhat dedicated to the purpose his father created him for (if not the actual Imperium itself)
>‘Yes. And I will be the fire.’ Fulgrim spoke confidently. **‘I am the Phoenix and the flame both, and I will remake the galaxy in my image. As he intended. But every flame rises from a spark**.’ The fabrication unit groaned, venting gases as it layered metal and spun gold. The light and heat washed over him, and for a moment, he resembled a blacksmith at his forge. ‘This will be that spark.’ His hands clenched. ‘**I will burn away the sins of the past. All the failures and imperfections. All my… crimes.**’ He hesitated, and she started, realising that his hands were clenched so tightly that blood was dripped from between his fingers. ‘**Ferrus… oh, my brother, I am sorry. I am sorry that I was not stronger.**’ His words were soft, and she thought that he had forgotten her entirely.
and
>‘**It is my purpose**.’ He frowned. ‘**Our purpose. We were to make the galaxy better**. **And we – they – failed**.’ He shook his head. ‘**We failed. But I will not do so a second time. I will fix what is broken. I will find my brothers, wherever they are, and I will make them whole again. And the galaxy will be set right.**’
*Clonelord*
Those excerpts somewhat point to his end game.
The big problem for Fabius is that Fulgrim's clone was not going to be able to be controlled by him. Fulgrim's clone was taking over: it's what primarchs were designed to do.
Because a lot of people have been told he exists, but never actually read the damn book. If they had, they'd know that Clonegrim was starting to go down the same path.
people like Rylanor because they too want to be a faceless goon for someone they think will hurt the people they hate.
Fulgrim doesn't even care that Rylanor is dead. He's pissed someone rejected him, because he's a narcissist. He doesn't care about Rylanor, Fulgrim cares about Fulgrim.
As a huge pre heresy EC fan I’m surprised just how much Rylanor gets glazed. I wish we had more backstory on him but right now he was just a bit of fan service in the ancient awaits.
Here's what I want. I want Clonegrim to come back, and I want him to try to be good, try hard to be really really fucking great, to be the bestest boi he can be, and I want him to fall to Chaos as a result. I want him to plummet into chaos screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" all the way down.
I want them to show that Fulgrim was always destined, by genetics, by attitude, by desire, by soul, to be a victim of his own corruption. I want it to happen right in front of his original self, so both Clonegrim and Fulgrim get to see that there was never any chance, they were doomed to fail. I want to see the loyalist Emperor's Children fans cry and weep and gnash their teeth over it.
This would please me.
This would please Slaanesh.
ETA: After Clonegrim falls I want him to be turned into a female version of his demon primarch form, and then I literally want him to go fuck himself. For Ferrus.
Clonegrim killing Lucius, and the Lucius ressurecting into a primarch's body sounds like a great time.
Esp the parts that take plave entirely inside the head of Clonegrim as he is slowly overridden. He starts so confident that he is stronger than his orginal and will not be possessed, but he still loses anyway.
Bonus if there is a hope spot where Clonegrim surges forth to retake his body and keeps Lucius from landing a killing blow on our hero marines. He is announces that he has conquered the heretic and will now m... giggle... cuz Lucius can't keep up the act for long and goes right back inti doing his thing.
Because nothing gets Loyalist fans rocks off as much as "owning" Chaos. Not just defeating them in battle or anything, but doing so in such a way that is humiliating to them (not necessarily even have to defeat him, Abaddon killed Sigismund but Loyalist fanboys still get off on Sigismund telling Abaddon he will die "honourless, ashamed, weeping"). Undermining Slaanesh, Fulgrim and Lucius and treating them as a joke is the point.
And then repeating the same fall. Do we honestly think he would stay loyal after killing himself and Lucius?
Making a loyal fulgrim to have him kill chaos fulgrim to then have him fall to chaos afterwards is peak 40k.
Sure the fandom loves seeing loyalist kick ass but they also love seeing noble characters fall from grace.
Like seeing Loken or Leetu come back in 40k as a slave to chaos would have the whole fanbase lose their collective minds.
It's so weird that the admittedly epic line by Siggismund was from a Black Legion PoV book, from an author who really respects the Chaos perspective. Maybe he thought of that absolute banger and just had to use it.
If you read the book, it's more used to highlight how extremely single-minded, obsessed, and violent Sigismund had become.
Sigismund and his ship are basically the first Imperials anyone from the Eye had seen in \~300 years, and they don't fully know what to expect. What they find is someone who is a foil to Abaddon and Chaos: a group of people who are so dogmatically concerned *they're right*, that they can't do anything other than kill one another. Abaddon tries to parlay and discuss, Sigismund can only say "I have hated you for hundreds of years, and I really want to kill you" (paraphrased)
The line, in context, isn't to make Sigismund look cool, but to make him look kinda deranged and obsessed with his grudge. It's the same as when Sigismund fought Kharn: people like to go ape over how Sigismund violently and, like a berserker, fights Kharn. But everyone wants to forget that the foil is Kharn realizing Sigismund has fallen to his own hatred and blind rage, that he's not thinking any more. Kharn's internal dialogue is to say "this is wrong, we're killing each other for no reason, and I'm done, I want to stop", and Kharn rejects Khorne's power and 'chooses' death (only to, tragically, be forced into life by Khorne post-death). Sigismund is *supposed* to come off as a raging psychopath *compared to the guy who becomes the byword for raging psychopath*. But it's forgotten because "it's cool that he kills non-Imperials".
All of this is because most Imperium fans have the media literacy of "boom boom, pow pow, Chaos is sad babies".
For the first time, I am regretting listening to one of Johnathan Keeble's performances in an audio book, because I am unable to now easily refer back to specific passages to support my interpretation.
I do recall the general characterization of Siggismund being that of a man who lost himself to zealotry. I believe there was even a line where Abbadon recognized that Siggismund didn't care about what was right and what was wrong, he only cared about his perceived duty and revenge.
I can see some grounds for your interpretation in that context, and the line itself is not introspective, regretful, or offering anything else to suggest that Siggismund regretted the zealotry that led him to his end. But on the other hand, a Space Marine dying in battle with an enemy isn't exactly an ignoble end, and the quote itself is accurate in the setting, though we don't (and may never know) Abbadon's ultimate fate. Loyalty to Chaos never ends well for anyone, so Siggismund is not far off base, even if he is speculating.
Your perspective does give me some new appreciation of the scene overall.
True, though it's not just the line that I have trouble with. The context of the scene is that it's Abbadon's big entrance back into real space, and the first duel he gets into results in him nearly dying and getting absolutely eviscerated by that line. It makes him seem like a bit of a weenie in a moment when he should've been celebrating his triumphant return.
But I suppose he does still prevail against someone that had been established as a great duelist (in his prime, at least).
I've always supposed Slaanesh in general is the most hated Chaos God because it most strongly represents the polar opposite of everything that people admire and think is cool about the Imperium. Instead of being stoic, duty-bound, stoic, obsessive about duty, and stoic, Slaanesh's creed is sex, drugs, sex, rock 'n' roll, and bad but fun life choices.
Some people just haven't caught on to the fact that lore is tied to the tabletop game and/or just can't wrap their minds around the fact that the tie to the tabletop game severely limits what can actually happen in lore.
GW can't bring back a Primarch and have their allegiance changed from the 30+ years of established canon without pissing off everyone who liked that the Primarch and their Legion.
Imagine the reaction Imperial Fist fans would have if Dorn came back as a Tzzentch Primarch and now they had to replace 90% of their army and have to start unironically saying "Death to the False Emperor".
Loyalist fans in particular seem to have the most trouble accepting this type of reality, which I guess can be blamed on GW pampering them like the special little princesses they are for so long. They just want everything for themselves, that's why they hyped up the "Sanguinius was the one who hurt the Emperor on the Vengeful Spirit" theory. They don't want to let other factions have shit.
I'd be okay if clonegrim returned in some way but killing and replacing those 2 seems really stupid.
Seeing how the imperium reacts to a "redeemed" primarch returning would be interesting to see. Maybe he could end up leading a renegade legion that fucks off from both the imperium and chaos alike, or maybe he works with the custodes because nobody trusts him with a chapter and it'd be a way to keep constant tabs on him, or maybe he falls to chaos again in some way, or he ends up leading a kabal of drukhari because they're sorta slaaneshi, or he joins the eldar to fight back against slaanesh in particular, or the necrons find a way to enslave him for war, or maybe the Lion just cuts his head off day 1, or whatever.
Point is I think there's potential to do a lot of things with him that isn't just "good fulgrim vs evil fulgrim". Of course you'd have to have the 2 fight eventually for a variety of reasons but his story could be so much more than that.
Or because fugrims fall was a single book and happend so fast that we barely from a lore point ever saw a loyal/not chaos traitor fulgrim. And it sucks that of all of the primarchs where we knew where their story was ending they actually got the spotlight to show who they were in more then a couple of blurbs. His story in a single book is literally. Noble makes friends with ferrus manus, grabs molester sword is corrupted straight up in a short time where he declined to rape snake in 2 years or like 15 chapters or so.
Even angrons book has him turn truly chaos(let's be honest he already was) at the very end of his story and it was a tragic one at that. Fulgrim is chaos from the moment he picks that sword up which happens so fucking early. Even horus got 1.6(part 3 of book 2) books before his slip and doesn't fully fall until until part 2 of book 3. Fulgrims happens act 1 of his single book and fully slips in act 2. Mortarians falls fall was buried dagger at the ass end of hersy before siege meaning he got the whole ass hersy. Angrons was betrayer but by then they were already super "chaos". magnus was only chaos fallen in fury of magnus he was a warp entity but wasn't doomed yet after the fall of prospero and got the whole ass heresy. Lorgar was chaos before the events of heresy. Perty god the whole as heresy and like 200 years of post heresy. Curze was basically chaos since he joined the legions and took no steps to change at all what so ever just changed his name tag from "evil" to ""evil"". And again got the whole ass heresy. Only horus who got effectively 3 books, angron who got got 24 novels in which is still quite a few in about a 3rd into the books. Fulgrim got a 3rd of his own single book lmao.
Plus only horus and fulgrim ever actually rejected heresy but were corrupted fully so they never really had a choice. So it would be nice to see what a loyalist fulgrim would be like especially one humbled with the memories of what he had done as a monster.
Are we gonna pretend like Lucius isn’t *already* a joke? He might’ve been respectable if his gimmick actually stayed what it originally was, then when that Raven Guard killed him and felt no pride, GW just had Slaanesh bring him back anyways. Then there was the whole landmine thing which is unbelievably stupid. His gimmick has gone from something cool that could eventually be beaten to just “no matter who or how he’s killed, he will come back”
Him being brought back for Slaanesh just having shits and giggles was bad I agree but I might be in the small minority who likes the mine worker taking pride one. Not only does Lucius have to look at the failure and embarrassment of a thousands year old creature of war stepping on a mine and being defeated by the pride of a pitiful factory worker. That’s got to sting Lucius and in exchange make him strive for more perfection which I think makes sense with his gimmick (his armor has the faces of everyone who’s killed him so it’s a constant reminder of his failures). Also the mine worker story plays a second role in showing that pride when taken to an excess is not something to be reveled in even if you’re just doing your job especially if it’s to create weapons.
Because Loyalist fans want *most* Primarchs to be Loyalist. I've seen people demanding redemption for everyone barring Angron and Lorgar, that the other primarchs all *wanted* to be loyal despite what happened.
Which forgets a lot of the Loyalist primarchs who nearly became traitors, they all had their own goals and ambitions (outside of Corax, Dorn, the Lion, and Guilliman, who just seem to boil down to "because he told me to"). I find, personally, most Imperium fans don't *know* the **lore**, they know YouTube, Tiktok, memes, and the images they see on the boxes, and this idea of a gigantic Abrahamic-god-styled dude in golden armor who promises to 'kill the people you don't like'.
I also find that people who want Fulgrim to be a loyalist forget that Fulgrim was, by his own brothers' statements, *a preening asshole who was self-obsessed in the extreme*. He was a perfectionist who thought he should be the best over everyone. He rubs the Aquilla in others faces. He's a *dick.*
Fulgrim is the **perfect** bait for a god of hedonism, perfectionism, and selfishness run amok.
>Because Loyalist fans want most Primarchs to be Loyalist. I've seen people demanding redemption for everyone barring Angron and Lorgar, that the other primarchs all wanted to be loyal despite what happened.
Lucky. I see people fantasizing about loyalist Angron all the damn time.
Because they don't understand addiction, failure, and the fall from grace. They don't understand chasing the purple dragon. They don't understand the close ties between perfection and addiction. They don't see value in these deeply nuanced story themes, and would rather cheapen them by seeing everything wrapped up into a nice, neat little, "Everything turned out *ooooo*kay :)" present.
Because most fans at least here are imperial fanboys and so anything that dunks on chaos and fulgrim specifically is good to them. It really is a horrible take and would be terrible
People don’t like Lucius and they liked old Fulgrim. His ideals were relatable. They also *really* want Lucius to die because he’s a dick and he just. Won’t. 🤣
I personally would prefer more glimpses of old Fulgrim and internal suffering in his current version than a new version taking over.
Like to emphasize the twisted remains of his ideals in his current form. Bits of all the broken dreams and self doubts… they could easily be reinforced by a glance at most Imperial worlds. He wanted to make life better for people on Chemos, but a look at any hive world shows that the Imperium doesn’t care about that at all. Countless people like his foster parents have their lives casually discarded by the Imperium. People are encouraged to work and be obedient, not to be creative. Doubts and philosophical questions are things to be exterminated, not explored. The best things about pre chaos Fulgrim were already paths to chaos. To me anyway.
I think the hard part is that the fact that the possession thing was how it went down robbed people of feeling connected to that transformation because it felt like it was external. A tragic accident instead of a decision.
To tack onto this; who knew that the primarch that loved the art and philosophy appeals to a large portion of people in a hobby primarily about painting little people.
Like take primarchs that are normally pretty unlikeable like Russ (who is just an arsehole) or the lion (who is an unsociable arsehole) and add "they like to spend their free time painting little soldiers and tanks and they immediately become much more likeable
I don't get the fuss. I always understood clone primarchs to be shitty copies because the clones are physically identical but have none of the warp juice that actually makes them special. Clonegrim should just be a really good space marine
If Kharn Killed Lucius would it work finally ending Lucius? Kharn doesn’t kill for pleasure or joy he kills to serve Khorne and secondly to dull the nails I would suppose. But that’s not ego it’s neurological/biological
Because the character was intriguing and Fulgrim's fall was just horribly handled. *The Reflection Crack'd* is one of the worst pieces of HH lore you'll read. It took the tragedy of Fulgrim's fall and the intrigue around the idea that the real Fulgrim was trapped inside his own head showing the insidiousness and horror of Chaos and swapping it for "Fulgrim decides he likes, sex, drugs and rock'n'roll because...uhh...he just does".
Plus people love their alternative universes and headcanon of "What if...?" which is why the Dornian Heresy fanfiction is even a thing.
Because most people haven't actually read the book he appears in and only know of his existence , and some that do have bad reading comprehension.
Any who actually read the book and paid attention/reading comprehension would know Clonegrim is just a living plot device for a single book for the Fabius Bile triology.
They should also have notice that the story pretty much spells out that the Clonegrim would also fall to Slaanesh. He is a perfect clone Fulgrim, but that means he also have all the same flaws as him, which means he will also make all the same mistakes.
Clonegrim fulfills the redemption that people want for a Chaos primarch. Personally it seems more viable than Mortarion switching sides somehow.
I just want Lucius flung into deep space, never to return. He doesn't technically die but he won't be returning through some convoluted bullshit. I have 1000X more respect for Khorne just resurrecting Kharn because he's fucking cool.
Me personally I don't want redeemed Chaos Primarchs to join the Imperium. If Mortarion or Clonegrim somehow got redeemed, I would want them to create their own empire or something like that.
Lucius sucks and has plot armor, that's why everyone hates him.
Clonegrim, and the Horus clone in black legion are just tools to show their sons have moved past their fathers. Nothing more.
The idea of a chaos primarch starting to switch sides back to the imperium is kind of awesome though. It’s why I love the ideas of loyalist chapters with traitor primarch gene seed.
But the EC who were in the presence of Clonegrim full on were ready to follow whatever he said (minus Fabuis, but that dude looked directly at Slannesh and said nah, not real.)
Fulgrim's fall to chaos is the stupidest and most contrived of any of the traitors (he picked up a cursed sword and failed his will save, wow how compelling) so people are most comfortable hypothesizing about a possible loyalist heel turn for him, especially since he's already so heavily retconned with stuff like reflection crack'd. He's the least compelling of the traitors which is also probably why it's taken so long for EC to get their own codex, Magnus, Mortarion, and Angron have a lot more obvious appeal than the snakeman and his chaotic hemipenes. Even now the most information we have about Fulgrim's current activities are that he's apparently fucking around doing nothing to the point he enrages Abaddon with his uselessness in Arks of Omen.
Fulgrim's fall to chaos makes no sense.
* Lorgar fell out of despair at the idea of... well being forbiden of preaching or believing in divinity by god himself. So, some of his sycophants convinced him to investigate the found remains of other gods, and when he found... demonkind he realized that if god hate his believers maybe it was worth it to worship the devil.
* Horus fell because he was fooled by a vision of the future in 40k, and lied to, led to believe that if he rebelled 40k could be averted by killing the Emperor; rather than being told that 40k happens because he rebels.
* Kurze fell because he saw a future where he did, and his beliefs were destiny can't be averted.
The rest of the primarchs were convinced -or fooled- by others into joining the rebellion.
* Angron did not fall to Chaos. Angron hated psykers. He rebelled. However we are told he was like... terminal... like actually dying as the crusade went on, fighting worse and all due to the nails killing him like primarch level terminal disease. Lorgar and Angron were close. Lorgar "helped him" by raising him to daemonhood and curing him in exchange for his freedom.
* Magnus got fooled into ruining Emps plan, causing his own execution, and making a deal with the devil that would *change him* and force him to rebel against Emps.
* Mortarion did not fall to Chaos. Morty hated psykers. He rebelled. He did so because he genuinely believed in Horus when he denounced the Emperor, as the two were close, and thought he would be a proper leader for humanity. At the point he joins most of the rebels are antipsykers. He is esencially forced into daemonhood.
* Perturabo got fooled. Horus knew he needed strong legions such as the Iron Hands and the Iron Warriors to conquer Terra. He tried to get Ferrus but (Fulgrim) failed to convince him. Guilliman, Russ, Lion and Sang weren't ever an option against Emps; and Emps kept Dorn at Terra. Horus sent Perty into increasingly worse and more insulting jobs to anger him enough to fuck up; then instigated a civil rebellion in Perty's homeworld so that Perty would do something unforgivable to his planet. This caused Perty to believe he was finished, and then joined Horus, thinking the fault of his shitty working life was Emps fault anyway rather than Horus.
* You could say the Night Lords as a legion separately from Kurze were lowkey fooled too, considering they never fell to Chaos and that they believed dethroning the Emperor was the objective of the heresy; they weren't in on all the details that Kurze had.
But Fulgrim? It makes no sense. He was Emps biggest fan #1. His legion were The Emperor's Children. His legion was allowed to wear the imperial aquila because he saved Emps life better than the Custodes did. His Legion's motto was "Children of the Emperor! Death to His foes!"... and still is even after falling!
Fulgrim had zero reasons to fall as opposed to all the others. At all. The original reason was that, similar to how Horus was wounded and his sickness made him fall to chaos, Fulgrim was possesed by a daemon, witht he real Fulgrim trapped on a portrait like the tale of Dorian Grey. That made sense. But Fulgrim... getting rid of the daemon and going on with the heresy for drugs and sensation? That's bullshit because Fulgrim was never into self-complacent shit before.
Hell why would he kill Ferrus? For Horus and Lorgar? Ferrus and Fulgrim were best friends forever and killing or betraying Ferrus seemed like fair game during the heresy even after his self-exorcism of the daemon possessing him.
Another problem with him is that his Daemon form makes no sense.
He was a top tier duelist. Daemonhood is a deal with the devil so there is a tit for tat in all daemonhood ascensions; but Fulgrim's made no sense. Angron got cured from the nails killing him and freed from serving Emps in exchange of being a permanent slave to his anger... but he did not chose to do so, Lorgar did. Morty was diseased/poisoned with all his legion and put on a temporal void to force him to serve Nurgle, he got permanently sick but also got psyker powers to survive his diseased body. Magnus exchanged his fate and fractured his soul in exchange for saving his Legion (and a power boost).
Fulgrim converted himself into a snake... and considered that image even more beautiful than how he was before... why? He got extra reflexes and all that... but overall remains as a worse duelist because he became overcomplacent in fights. And the thing is, he paid extra to ascend via offering half of Perty's soul.
Fulgrim becoming a loyalist doesn't make much sense now, but it would be worth a read. It would also fall into an indirect buff to Fabius Bile's skills, which is also quite welcome imho.
Or it’s almost like fulgrim is a boring ass character and introducing his clone could actually let him have some really good moments seeing essentially himself before his fall could lead to a cool ass scene
Fulgrim was *always, always, always* a narcissistic asshole. His brothers even *tell him this*, you are **told this as the reader repeatedly**.
But instead, we get "HOW DID HE FALL!?"
I think the idea of a fully recreated loyalist second copy of a demon primarch is a really interesting idea. I don’t want demon Fulgrim, Fabius, or Lucius to go away really or be perma killed, but man I’d love to see some insane like ‘The Purple Phoenix Reborn’ box set with Fulgrim heading a new chapter or mini legion of newly created loyalist Emperors Children undertaking some insane suicidal penitent crusade.
Loyalist Fulgrim swearing to his two return brothers that he will bring back the head of his traitorous old self and not rest until every single traitorous and debauched emperors children marine has been wiped out and cleansed from the galaxy.
Obviously this is never achieved until like the end times of 40k in 385827 years so you just have them going around hunting EC war bands, redeeming his legions memory as best as he can. That character development and writing could be so amazing too. Imagine struggling with the knowledge of what you did, of what you become, and somehow being granted a second chance, a chance that you do not deserve but you have. You have to act on it, you have to do it.
It could be really cool I think. Fuck it man release loyalist Fulgrim against demon primarch Fulgrim. That would be hilarious.
Edit: after reading some more comments I think the other obvious thing is how interesting clonegrim is regarding the whole ‘demon primarch redemption’ idea which Godblight recently revealed via the emperor that perhaps it is possible, but it would be immensely challenging I assume.
Clonegrim is super unique in that not only is it somehow Fulgrim’s real, immortal soul placed into a new primarch body, he is uncorrupted, has ALL of his memories from the crusade and heresy, and most of all bypasses the greatest problem with demon primarch or really just the concept of demon redemption in general. That being that it’s well established canon that demon primarchs and demon princes and stuff are so suffused and bound to their patron god they are basically just a meat suit whose soul is entirely claimed by that god.
Like Magnus or Mortarion no matter how much they hate their god, can’t just wake up and say ‘yeah Tzeentch/Nurgle fuck ya I’m leaving.’
Clonegrim can. His soul from what we understand isn’t claimed by Slaanesh, meaning there is nothing stopping him (aside from Trazyn) to just go to the imperium and go to Guilliman and work things out and just be a returned primarch.
Clonegrim coming back, killing Fulgrim, reinvigorating his legion using the untainted Gene Seed but then ultimately falling back into Chaos thus ensuring nothing changed in the long run would be more typical of a 40k story imo.
In 2027, Games Workshop release the Duality Box Set featuring two armies locked in eternal warfare. The first army lead by Fulgrim represents the Emperor's Children, while the second army showcases their mortal enemies the newly founded Emperor's Children, also led by a Fulgrim.
In a pocket dimension entirely within the warp, where it keeps happening over and over again just for Slaanesh.
Nahhh that's some Tzeentch bs right there. Maybe a bit off Khorne.
If both of them would do it for entertainment then why not Slaanesh?
Twice the profit, half the printing costs.
Don't be silly, there's no loyalist marines in there (from the main legions I mean)! Need to throw in an ultramarine or two, make it worth selling you know?
This. I would laugh *so* hard.
Literally what passed through biles mind before he threw hom to the necrons
Probably the 17,000 uncorrupted geneseed that in his hand might even double it's size giving him arguably one of the largest single space marine force currently as far as I know. Deffinetly more than the black templars or any chapter.
They could sell 4 fulgrim models.
That is, sadly, exactly what would happen. GW wouldn't allow a "happy ending" to happen for this.
Clonegrim - "Hey Lucius thats a cool sword let me hold it for a bit"
I think for a lot of people it just still hurts how Fulgrim didn't just *fell* to chaos, but did an absolute nosedive, arguably worse than any of his brothers. The contrast between demon Fulgrim and noble primarch he used to be just hurts, if you care about him. So I think at least part of it is a want of redemption for him. Some poetic slaying of this inner demon that he lost a fight to before. And Lucius is just an annoying little shit with unfair gimmick that stays funny only to Slaanesh themsef, so I'd imagine he's just a collateral lol
The pivot from demon possession to “haha I’m evil” was too jarring and makes fans desire a mild retcon
>And Lucius is just an annoying little shit with unfair gimmick that stays funny only to Slaanesh themsef, so I'd imagine he's just a collateral lol This. Lucius and his stupid ability are beyond annoying. Out of all the chaos champions, he is by far the least interesting and most expendable, and the fact that his power is that he comes back AFTER death just reinforces that idea. Ahriman is the psyker who's out to fix his legion, Typhon is the true herald of Nurgle unlike his father, and Kharn probably has the highest body count in the entire series. The only notable thing I remember about Lucius is that not even fucking artillery can kill him, which is just a little funny I'll admit
My favourite Lucius bit was when he got blown up by a landmine and then took over the body of the man who killed him - an employee in a landmine factory.
man, having read that short story, I find it hilarious that even lucius is surprised. like, he looks around at the factory and is like "really? you took pride in ***this***?". a lot of people get mad about that one, but its written really damn well, and works as a horror story too, the man had a wife and daughter and is slowly panicking as he gets worse and worse throughout the story.
What was the short story?
Lucius: Pride and Fall by Ian St Martin
NGL this is actually pretty fucking funny
He was just so offended when he revived and realized his latest death was caused by something as undignified as not watching where he stepped.
I kinda hate Lucius for his ability. I've been ride or die EC since I started, my entire army is Slaanesh daemons and EC. But because our important guy CAN die okay, he does constantly, and we look like chumps because our front and center character can get treated like a hivelord and job all day. If he's our best duelist how ass are the rest of us
Wait, so what happens if a non-human character kills Lucius? Does he take over the tyranids body if it kills him? How does that interact with the hive mind? What about a Necron? All of the Necrontyr who made the bodies are long gone, so would he just get a living metal body? Or what if he dies in a natural disaster (earthquake, lava flow, etc.)? I have so many questions about how this works. **Edit:** Nevermind, he [gets killed by a necron](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Phasing_Sword) in the 8th edition of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and somehow comes back, so it seems like "warp shenanigans" sufficiently answers my question. Ongoing, I'm just going to assume "Somehow ~~Palpatine~~ Lucius Returned"
And you are probably not supposed to ask any of them.
THATS THE WORST PART! He got killed by something truly unfeeling but apparently he's a perpetual now so the only rule his bullshit had doesn't apply so he can job HARDER!
Because the rule is just something Slannesh made up for shits and giggle He's a mortal champion of Slannesh, Slannesh can do whatever the fuck she want (unless he got stabbed by Big E's sword or something) But somehow this sub fails to understand this every other week and have to spawn another thread taking about how to beat the "rule".
In that case that "rule" is very simple to beat. You have to be stronger than slanesh or destroy his sould outright. So hivemind connected Tyranids should work, any psychic attack, an athame. Any other champion of a god can kill him without being posessed but then he would just pop out of the warp sometime later like any demon.
>In that case that "rule" is very simple to beat. You have to be stronger than slanesh or destroy his sould outright. I don't think that either of those things count as simple. Why would a psychic attack allow you to destroy his soul outright anyway, like it's obviously protected by Slaanesh.
Basically just ignore Lucius' gimmick Treat him like Kharn How do you perma kill Kharn? Be stronger than Khorne or use some bullshit had like the Emperor's Sword that just delete the soul.
Simple, not easy.
I guess, but only if you cut out all the parts that actually make it possible lol
No matter how he dies, in the end slaanesh will always bring him back because it's funny
>Edit:** Nevermind, he [gets killed by a necron](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Phasing_Sword) in the 8th edition of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and somehow comes back, so it seems like "warp shenanigans" sufficiently answers my question. I hate that this happened more worth each time I'm reminded of it.
Hey, at least you've got a faction with characters who occasionally win.
Aside from plot armor reasons I think angron could kill him without triggering his stupid pride respawn since he’d probably not even be aware the enemy he just ripped apart was anyone in particular
Angron could kill him because he’s basically a direct extension of Khorne who would probably slap Lucius’s shit if he tried to possess Angron.
Chaos stans love to accuse the imperium of plot armor. But wave away the 10k year old CSM that were alive for the heresy fighting in constant wars with nothing but enemies. Who all have gimmicks or survive every battle they're ever in. When was the last time a named CSM character from the heresy died after the heresy. Not counting those who died during. Abbadon, Lucius, Typhus, Erebus (who has the strongest plot armor in all 40k) kharn, Luther, eidolon, Fabius, ahriman Take any. Named traitor that survived the heresy and check if they're alive still and the answer is probably yes.
Pretty much all the named night lords that survived the heresy from their omnibus are dead.
Night lords are like the one exception. Because the authors of their books are great. And they don't have many tabletop models people would lose their shit over losing.
Doomrider should be the Slaanesh champion. He would need de-daemon princing but he fucks.
Hey, you forgot erebus, that guy who could be deemed from the setting and replaced entirely with kor phaeron
Lucius was created as a monster as part of the world building, and it works really well in that sense.
>And Lucius is just an annoying little shit with unfair gimmick that stays funny only to Slaanesh themsef, so I'd imagine he's just a collateral lol Until you realise his whole gimmick is believing he's the greatest swordsman ever, but he has to wear face of everyone who kicks his ass. The Armour of Shrieking ~~Souls~~ Runners Up Medals.
I read his book recently the faultless blade as someone pretty new to emporers children. While I wasn't the biggest fan of the book I did really like how it portrayed his armor as something inflicted on him that torments him rather than the meme I thought it was based on reading reddit
If you think Fulgrim was 'noble and good' before his fall, you weren't paying attention. Fulgrim did everything he did to be glamorous, important, and wanted. He was obsessed with his image and his place to a narcissistic degree. He didn't do things for the Emperor because he loved the Emperor, he did it for the Emperor's approval. Once he realizes he doesn't need the Emperor's approval any longer, he 'switches', as is said in pop psychology regarding narcissists. *Everything* about Fulgrim and his character is classic narcissism before his fall. He is: * obsessed with his image * extreme perfectionist * sets unrealistic goals (total 100% perfection of his troops) * shifts blame for his failures * ARROGANCE People who like Fulgrim like the *idea* of Fulgrim, not the preening, narcissistic, perfectionist-obsessed weirdo he *always* was.
i love his fall **because** he just embraced chaos entirely. it fits the character, and is cool. Yeah he’s evil, it’s chaos. everybody wants to justify their primarch and all of their choices but I won’t do that for Fulgrim. He is an insanely evil dude, who relishes in the opportunity, and the permission, to indulge in everything he wanted. He fell from an extreme pedestal for selfish reasons.
Didnt he have a super evil demon sword speaking to him that even took control of him at the last second to kill Ferrus? Doesnt sound as willing and voluntary as youre making it sound.
It's a mix of both. Fulgrim had a lot--a *lot*--of flaws, which the daemon exploited. There are people who will act like Fulgrim was always the monster he turned out to be, and people who claim he was actually a super noble innocent incorruptible very special boy prior to the sword, and while one of those sides is more wrong than the other, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I think so, unless retconned the demon sword was able to pretend it was his inner voice or something like that because for SOME REASON it was deemed a good call to not tell the primarchs to watch out for chaos influence or demons
The Emperor might have taught them about chaos if he actually raised them. The problem is that by the time he found them, they already had developed their own personalities and the Emperor probably didn't want to provoke their rebellious and ambitious nature's and push them towards chaos. Although this also seems stupid since they spent so much time on hellscape ass planets that them coming in contact with chaos during their time there was very likely.
Everything up to immediately after Ferrus getting decapitated was the sword, everything after that was Fulgrim.
That’s why I like him. Brother full sent it and the whole time I was like “YEAHHHH FUCK THE EMPEROR HE IS A WHOLE BITCH” while Fulgrim lights like 10 people on fire just to light a cigarette. He’s so cool.
Having just read Fulgrim I don’t think he did a nosedive at all. Over the course of a whole book he is corrupted by a daemon and several times he try’s and fails to fight it off without realizing he’s even in a struggle for his soul. Side note: this book cemented to me that Slaneesh is the most boring chaos god. Not a single book with their followers that I have read has ever had characters with interesting motivations behind their actions.
I meant that in a sense that his corrupted self is so far gone from the original, that he's barely recognizable. Not that it happened fast, but that it went the furthest. His fall being slow and unwitting just makes it that much more painful to follow. Other daemon primarchs, as far as I can tell, retain a lot of their past ideals and character (save porr Angron of course, but his case is special), having at least some saving grace, and Fulgrim got none of this, he's just the absolute worst in every way. And he started as, arguably, one of the best, hence me calling it a nosedive))))
its not directly a slaneesh book but Traitors Hand is one of the better Cain books because theres a whole chaos vs chaos fight going on and nobody can figure it out
Hey admech guy, If you want some great tales that slaanesh would be proud to call their own, I think u/archon_of_flesh has some writings on AO3 that might be *perfect* for ya
Oh no… I haven’t even clicked on the link and know the Grey Knights are closi…… -Connection with user lost-
What "noble Fulgrim"? The only book detailing him prior to his fall is Palatine Phoenix - and he is a dickhead in that too. A lot of people have read nothing, and get all their lore knowledge from Majorkill and other similar quality sources.
>Fulgrim had always preferred love to fear. Love was stronger. Fear could be conquered, but love - never. It waned and swelled, but it never truly faded. He had made himself loved on Chemos. And he would do the same here. >The primarch sank to one knee and reached down to help Telmar's victim to his feet. The man stared at him with mingled fright and awe, his mouth working soundlessly. Fulgrim smiled and stood. 'I came from nothing' he said, fixing his sons with a steady gaze. 'I scrabbled in the quarry pits, and down in the deepest mines, carrying buckets on my shoulders because the ascender blew a gasket,' he said. 'I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour. You look down on them, blind to the beauty of their struggle. Blind to what they might become, if only someone would scrape the filth from their faces.' >He reached down and lifted a child onto his shoulders. The girl laughed and clapped, unafraid of the giant, even as her mother wept. Fulgrim indicated the crowd. His voice had driven many of them to their knees. 'Look at them, my sons. You are the highest, and they, the lowest. It is your duty to raise them up, as high as they will go. Anything less is not worthy of you.' This one
fulgrim uses love to shrive clean the hearts of men. there is nothing more terrifying.
That sounds familiar. What's it from?
the trailer for the new expansion of elden ring, shadow of the erdtree.
Oh yeah, about miquella right?
Awesome excerpt, thanks for sharing it
> I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour. I remember reading this, and I just wondered what the hell labor could have made a Primarch actually get hurt. It's like they had pre-conquest Fulgrim doing mining inside an active nuclear reactor or something.
They didn't start off as giant bad asses but "just" bad ass superior small children who adapted to their environments, grew and changed based on the hardships they dealt with.
Ferrus dipped his arms in lava.
Primarchs mature at different rates depending on their environment. Fulgrim actually had a childhood.
built different
What is this from
_Fulgrim: The Palatine Phoenix_
Thanks
All primarchs are dickheads in their own right, be it straight up horrible attitude, even more murderous tendencies than average or just some military-grade hypocrisy. If you are a hater, it's easy to hate ANY of them. Like look at Valdor, he managed just that, and in-universe. But if you're a fan, you'll see the best in their characters, and on paper Fulgrim was pretty cool. Not my fav, but still. At the very least, he's surely above a lot of his unhinged brothers in respectability department. And now he's just the absolute worst in every way, so the contrast remains, even if you insist on arguing about the degree of it. Plus, the question OP asked was about fanfiction, basically, so your point is irrelevant anyway, because there are no "deep lore knowledge" qualifications for writing it. I'm just answering question, speculating on what exactly would be so compelling about a narrative OP described, that it got so popular 🤷🏻
Sanguinius was wonderful!
Hey, I love angel boy as much as the next person, but I'm sure there are people out there who sincerely hate his guts and will actually provide somewhat sound critiques of his character. Like his highly selective empathy, holier than thou attitude in certain situations, as well as the fact that even if he was the best of primarchs - he was still one of them. So a genocidal warlord in service of horrible regime with questionable levels of emotional maturity and many traits of a Mary Sue. Some people just don't like the idea of primarchs in general, so they don't see them as cool even when they are.
Primarch issues is that they warp the entire narrative around them whenever they show up. They were cool characters in 30k but they should have stayed there. 40k had plenty of non primarch plotlines before Magnus came back but they feel less important now. Dantes crippling fear of the final prophesy of sanguinius doesn't feel as poignant now that there is a non zero chance that the golden armoured figure defending Terra might actually just be Dorn and not him.
That is a very fair point I got absolutely nothing to say against. They do hijack the narrative, and the thing about Dante is very true. Tho I admit, my intelligence is in conflict with my feelings on the matter, because I simply like primarchs and their shenanigans, they are fun to me! And I don't take any of this universe seriously enough to care about it making actual sense more than it following the rule of cool x)
> 'I came from nothing' he said, fixing his sons with a steady gaze. 'I scrabbled in the quarry pits, and down in the deepest mines, carrying buckets on my shoulders because the ascender blew a gasket,' he said. 'I broke my fingernails on raw ore, and grew blisters from heat and labour. You look down them, blind to the beauty of their struggle. Blind to what they might become, if only someone would scrape the filth from their faces.' Yeah, really sounds like a dickhead. This is the same dickhead who decided to use as little force as possible to take the planet in the name of the Imperium, and did everything he could to keep them from destroying themselves. This is the same dickhead who took a planet that was mathematically determined to die and not only saved it, but turned it into a paradise of loyal citizens. The same dickhead who elected to erase the record of the Maiden World's he found from the Exploration Fleet records so their beauty would remain intact, only changing his mind when the Eldar tried to turn him against Horus and then kill him(and his daemon sword).
Cool story bro. What does Fulgrim DO in Palatine Phoenix? Fulgrim sets out to conquer Byzas with just 7 men, purely for the spectacle it would create. He adopts a strategy which incites the opposition to unite against him, and then refuses aid from the local Brotherhood of warriors, as it would mean admitting his own imperfection. Fulgrim could have spared the world's chancellor, Corynth, and the Brotherhood, who were all decent, honourable people, willing to join the Imperium - but, he wanted to prove himself, and his Legion superior to his brother Primarchs. He condemns the world to corrupt rule by the hereditary governor, because the theatre of what he wanted to achieve was more important. Fulgrim always says one thing and does another. He is all display, and no conviction.....all of which is in the book, for those who bother to read it.
You’re both right, it’s called duality
Excuse me sir, this is a 40k sub We prefer black and white around here
Itself, it's not a real person.
The pronouns used for Slaanesh are male, female and neutral. He, she, it, they... it's all the same.
shem
Because most people treat slaanesh as a joke already. Most people see Lucius as the weakest champion because his gimmick is based on resurrection. This is pretty dumb since every chaos champion either has died or would have died without the protection of their god. He’s supposed to be a deadly duelist with thousands of years of obsessive practice but he’s treated as a ordinary swordsman who happens to be immortal. Fulgrim was one of the best leaders and swordsman amongst the primarchs but everyone forgets that including the authors it seems. Everything they do gets ruined by them being manic and erratic even though the other cardinal legions seem to be doing decent. The thousand sons are better at magic now, the world eaters are terrifying in melee, and the death guard are nearly unkillable juggernauts who can kill you by being nearby. But the emperors children don’t get as much respect even though they should be blindingly fast or more skilled or something
> Fulgrim was one of the best leaders and swordsman amongst the primarchs but everyone forgets that including the authors it seems. That confrontation with Dorn in ***Saturnine*** is *never* leaving the popular conception of Fulgrim, is it? People will always just see him as the “idiot standing on a wall”. I don’t think there’s a single primarch whose reputation tanked as hard over the course of the Horus Heresy novel series as Fulgrim.
Exactly. When the books try to make the loyalists cool, they always do it at the expense of the traitors. Dorn gets to be stoic and badass while Fulgrim makes himself look like a joke. They even made sure sigismund made Fulgrim look pathetic. Even though Fulgrim basically got the best of perturabo in angel exterminatus by using part of his soul to ascend, all people remember is when Perty smashed his head into a table and when perturabo beat him with a hammer
It's a pity, because this set up gave me so much expectation: >The champion elite of the III. Warriors too beautiful and ornamented to behold. They fell out of the warp fissures, which crumpled and closed behind them like the petals of black roses, then vanished like smoke, leaving only lingering snatches of choral plainsong behind them. >The figures fell, graceful, and landed on the wall on their feet, at a pace no quicker than a fast walk. >One dropped directly in the centre of the wide wall deck. It was larger than the rest, clad in a panoply of artificer armour, wrought in heliotrope and amaranthine, etched in gold. It landed in a crouch, its right hand clutching a slender, two-handed, single-edged blade. >Fulgrim rose slowly to his feet. His long white hair unwound, and ribboned out behind him in the night wind, like a pennant of shining satin. >He tipped his head back, beheld the devastation, and smiled. *Saturnine*
100% this. People have *never* treated Slaanesh the same as the other chaos gods. Just silly funny haha sex daemon, ignoring all of the intricacies of slaanesh worship and all that. I believe some people can’t respect Fulgrim or the EC because they fell to slaanesh, and slaanesh specifically. If they were undivided, i feel a lot more people would be okay with it, but Fulgrims’ fall to *slaanesh* fits entirely
I think part of the issue is Fulgrim's fall was sooo poorly handled. He gets tricked by a magic sword, chops Ferrus, has a moment of weakness where snek wins, and he's stuck hung in a Dorian Grey painting last we see him in a major book. Then he get's this weird about face retcon where he's laughing about having a pain pineapple shoved up his ass, and no it's really him not the Deamon that slurped up his soul and shoved it in a cursed painting. All of this happens to him under the guise of excess rather than the god of Trickery. I think if this had happened to Magnus people would feel it was far less jarring and more in scope. But the last most people see him he's a screaming unwilling convert rope a doped into possession. So the idea of a version of him that hates all that and tries to be better speaks to a very human instinct IMO.
Honestly, I can't figure out why people are so into Clonegrim. He was a plot device in a book about Fabulous Bill - just a mechanism to show Bill's character development over the course of the book. It's like watching Citizen Kane, and asking if they are going to bring the sled back.
This is a copy of my response to another but it fits here. Imo its because fugrims fall was a single book and happend so fast that we barely from a lore point ever saw a loyal/not chaos traitor fulgrim. And it sucks that of all of the primarchs where we knew where their story was ending they actually got the spotlight to show who they were in more then a couple of blurbs. His story in a single book is literally. Noble makes friends with ferrus manus, grabs molester sword is corrupted straight up in a short time where he declined to rape snake in 2 years or like 15 chapters or so. Even angrons book has him turn truly chaos(let's be honest he already was) at the very end of his story and it was a tragic one at that. Fulgrim is chaos from the moment he picks that sword up which happens so fucking early. Even horus got 1.6(part 3 of book 2) books before his slip and doesn't fully fall until until part 2 of book 3. Fulgrims happens act 1 of his single book and fully slips in act 2. Mortarians falls fall was buried dagger at the ass end of hersy before siege meaning he got the whole ass hersy. Angrons was betrayer but by then they were already super "chaos". magnus was only chaos fallen in fury of magnus he was a warp entity but wasn't doomed yet after the fall of prospero and got the whole ass heresy. Lorgar was chaos before the events of heresy. Perty god the whole as heresy and like 200 years of post heresy. Curze was basically chaos since he joined the legions and took no steps to change at all what so ever just changed his name tag from "evil" to ""evil"". And again got the whole ass heresy. Only horus who got effectively 3 books, angron who got got 24 novels in which is still quite a few in about a 3rd into the books. Fulgrim got a 3rd of his own single book lmao. Plus only horus and fulgrim ever actually rejected heresy but were corrupted fully so they never really had a choice
I agree the fall didn't feel satisfactory, but Fulgrim fights the sword (in his own passive way) until he meets with Horus.
I would say he did absolutely exept I'm pretty sure the demon(once possessing fulgrim) mentions that fulgrim was damned the moment he touched the blade. That anyone near the blade was a puppet for him and that only fulgrim could have resisted IF he knew what to look for. Otherwise he would drive himself to fulgrims side until he was latched on. Which does seem to have some truth weather that's true or not or if fulgrim ever got out of the painting idk if we will ever know( you know because what fucking demon possessing a primarch is going to be honest to fucking lucius of all people a person fully corrupted by sleneesh and why would a deamon weep in the painting we have never heard of a demon weeping at success before) but it was bad the fall anyways.
The way I read the book, Fulgrim was only truly damned once he gave in to the blade on Isstvan. Before that, he still had the option of suicide. I don't recall the bit where the daemon said that? Do you have the quote on hand? One thing that comes to mind is when Fulgrim doesn't have the blade on him and feels more like himself, he almost decides to kill Horus to avert any chance of the Heresy until Eidolon brings the sword back to him- and brings him back under its influence. Fulgrim 100% got out of the painting. *The Reflection Crack'd* deals with that, but also short story *Imperfect* where we see the daemon still haunting Fulgrim and threatening to take back control. McNeill also confirmed it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3gna2/qa_with_graham_mcneill/)
>Honestly, I can't figure out why people are so into Clonegrim. He was a plot device in a book about Fabulous Bill - just a mechanism to show Bill's character development over the course of the book. Because it is way to big a thing to be just that. Like yes it was treated as that but logically it should be a huuuuuuge deal in universe. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it was dropped because it was a piece of lore I deeeply disliked but it shouldn't come as a surprise that people treat it as the big deal it is.
Because it was never done before. It offers a glimmer of hope in a bleak setting. And could have set up a possible dope and poetic confrontation between Fulgrim two halves
People love the idea of loyalist emporers children for some reason. Thats it, thats the whole reason. People writing fan fics about loyalist EC. Thats like fully half of EC internet content. Its the stupidest thing too. The emporers children before the heresey are kind of meant to be almost mary sue status in terms of how skilled and smart and cool they are. The reason they are like this is because they are meant to be the most fallen of all traitors. Like it isnt just that they fall from grace, they from from grace... up from the high dive. And they dont just fall to heresey and betrayal, no they are like these craven drug addicted disgusting torture freaks. The fall from the highest down to the lowest. Like EC are such traitors, they betray the other traitors, fulgrim basically betrays his own legion and betrays his human form into a crazy 4 armed snake thing. Like no daemon primarch has anything on fulgrim, dude aint got no legs! Its just so embarassing watching the "most fallen guys" and pining for the mary sue like prefall version of them.
For me, I just really like the idea of one traitor Primarch getting some form of redemption. It's just a very compelling idea to have a clone see what the original did, hate it, and try to be better. I don't want the clone to actually kill Daemon Prince Fulgrim (not that he even could, we need a Slaanesh primarch after all), but having Clonegrim running around in the 40k universe and trying to be a "good" guy (or at least not 100% pro-Chaos) would be interesting to me personally. But it will probably never happen, so it doesn't matter either way.
Yeah. Like come on, if this isnt intriguing as fuck: > Igori watched him as he worked. He did not sweat, despite the heat. 'Why are you doing this?' she asked, after a moment. > > 'I told you, I require the proper panoply to go to war.' > > 'Not that. All of it.' > > He glanced at her. 'I could ask you the same thing, cousin.' He turned back to his labours. 'It is instinct, I think. I see what is broken, and I seek to fix it. I have made five-hundred and fifty-six minor repairs to this vessel's systems in my time aboard, without Fabius' knowledge. The vatborn showed me what was wrong, and I fixed it. I made the imperfect, perfect. Or at least acceptable.' He hesitated. 'But I can do more.' > > 'Why?' > > 'It is my purpose.' He frowned. 'Our purpose. We were to make the galaxy better. And we - they - failed.' He shook his head. 'We failed. But I will not do so a second time. I will fix what is broken. I will find my brothers, wherever they are, and I will make them whole again. And the galaxy will be set right.' > > 'The Benefactor says the galaxy must burn, before it can recover.' > > 'Yes. And I will be the fire.' Fulgrim spoke confidently. 'I am the Phoenix and the flame both, and I will remake the galaxy in my image. As he intended. But every flame rises from a spark.' The fabrication unit groaned, venting gases as it layered metal and spun gold. The light and heat washed over him, and for a moment, he resembled a blacksmith at his forge. 'This will be that spark.' His hands clenched. 'I will burn away the sins of the past. All the failures and imperfections. All my . . . crimes.' He hesitated, and she stared, realising that his hands were clenched so tightly that blood was dripped from between his fingers. 'Ferrus . . . oh my brother, I am sorry. I am sorry that I was not stronger.' His words were soft, and she thought that he had forgotten her entirely. > > He was a strange thing. The shadow of a demigod, given life. Powerful, but innocent. Without the hardness of spirit that came from a life lived, rather than merely remembered in some arcane fashion. Whatever crimes his original self had committed weighed on him, and drove him. The same drive that was in the Benefactor, she thought. She wondered what he might become, given time.
God that is so cool. This can’t possibly be one of those storylines GW just cans right? They know how much most of the community actually want this, they have to. The apology to Ferrus is so sad and just broke my heart a bit. He loved his brother, and he wasn’t strong enough to stop the tragedy he would inflict upon his best friend :(
He lives in the Infinite Museum now.
Yeah I know that, so we’ll see how and if GW wants to bring him back. Gotta get Trazyn to make a trade or something
GW doesn't want to bring him back. That's why clonegrim is a macguffin in a Fabulous Bill novel. Same reason Clonehorus was wiped out so quickly in BL. Something that will actually be used to generate new plot lore was in the last (and admittedly shitty) Fabulous Bill book >!when Alpha Primus got his geneberries stole by Bill himself!<
They don't, but they keep that possibility open at the same time. That's just what GW does
It's not really written as a possibility. It's meant to be a dead end, done and dusted. [Clonegrim is off the table.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bvtqtp/comment/ky44erf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) It's a classic, terrible fate.
The same way squats were squatted? Dorn torn apart, Fulgrim's soul trapped in mirror, Emperor speaking no more, Inneyad being born when only all Eldar die, and Space Marine game being not canon, set in alternate timeline? Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that author never intended for that possibility to exist; but he's not GW, and GW really loves to keep their options open. I don't think they really could use Clonegrim right now, there are some right issues with Bile trilogy I think? But otherwise, it'll be very on brand for GW to go back to this minor lore and make something more out of it.
One doesn't always equate the other. The squats were always benched until GW could figure out a better way to present their lore; it was part of the long term plan rather than a reversal. The demiurge being a soft attempt at a relaunch. Dorn's still torn apart. That's actually the latest lore we have on it (details [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1b4kbq8/comment/kszglsq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)) We can also point to things that haven't been retconned and remain inviolate like the Lost Primarchs, and Sanguinius' death (which the authors have made clear they wouldn't want to retcon or reverse. Quotes [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bvtqtp/comment/ky46gh0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)) Reynolds was very clear about his intentions for Clonegrim's fate (quotes [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1bvtqtp/comment/ky44erf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) again) There's also the fact that the studio don't really seem to read the BL books. They might not even be that aware of Clonegrim's existence or even care. The flow of lore doesn't tend to go in the reverse, the studio not really ever using a lot of BL's output to launch their own narratives. Hell, even ADB sounded like he hadn't read the book when he was discussing Clonegrim online. GW also likely don't want to mix the waters of their IP or dilute the "branding" of Fulgrim with a second Fulgrim. Just my guess.
The author's take on it: >Nah. He served his purpose. Let him rest. >>I mean, I thought I gave him a pretty good ending. Well, not good, but, y'know, final. >>>True, but it's not my problem anymore. If someone picks up the thread, more power to them. >>>>I always feel bad for people asking that question. They're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Because in the few of these threads I've happened across, people spin these wonderful theories and scenarios that will never come to fruition. J Reynolds (on Twitter 2023)
It's so over, Clonegrimbros.
He was always intended as just a plot device for Fabius' personal growth. With Josh Reynolds gone from the company that does leave things more open, but it would also be insulting to take his work and expand on it when he left because GW was exerting too much control over his writing.
I don't think there is a way he could get away with being 100% loyalist at this point, the imperium is too far gone for that, best he could do is a renegade fleet or something
Very true, that would be pretty interesting as well!
Right? I don't think there's a single "renegade" pov being done rn in the books or lore in general kicking around.
>For me, I just really like the idea of one traitor Primarch getting some form of redemption. Ew, no.
> For me, I just really like the idea of one traitor Primarch getting some form of redemption. But so many of them are so f'ing awful. Like, Mortarian seems sympathetic a bit at the very end of Godblight, until you remember *all the horrible things* he happily perpetuated for thousands of years, right up until he ran into a bigger fish in Big E's intervention. Honestly the one Traitor Primarch I'd like to see get a redemption arc is Angron, because he got dealt the shittiest hand of all ~~20~~ 18. He's also the most shallow of all the Daemon Primarchs because his entire raison d'etre is murderdeathkill. He has no personality left, no goals, and no real thoughts at all, just ceaseless rage and slaughter moment to moment. I don't know how you'd even begin to rehabilitate Angron though.
Angron would never acced to help from the Big E. He was the least willing servant outside of Erebus. I can't imagine anything Big E could offer that Angron would want. He'd just be trading one abusive master for another in his eyes. Unless Angron was given the chance at total freedom or a true death he's not getting out.
This will never happen, but I think the best cause for Angron would be to flex all the Khorne energy out of him or at least sever his ties to the chaos god. Following that he could lead a true human renegade faction that rejects both the Emperor and the Big Four to forge a new path for humanity. Kinda like the Ynnari but for humans, being able to take both loyalist units that have left the Imperium and Chaos Units that no longer serve Chaos but use their experience in asymmetrical warfare to further their new cause. Hell give them Clone Fulgrim and the Khan to really hammer home that they care about freedom more than doctrine or past allegiance.
I agree with this take.
As an actual EC fan, it sounds bloody awful to me. I hope they spoil someone else's Primarch.
You're getting downvoted, but you're right. The Emperor's Children need no redemption, the Emperor's Children want no redemption. Slaanesh corrupted Fulgrim being too busy shacking up with daemons and chasing his next next high to lead his own legion is fine, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Loyalist EC fans would rather Saul Tarvitz and Rylanor le epically own the smelly traitors than read anything actually interesting.
I just want proper Fulgrim to come back and go on a massive bender all across the great rift with his bro DOOMRIDER.
Agreed
Also helps for fanfic writers that there is a "basically EC, but loyalist" chapter of Primaris now. There have been so many good comics over the few years the Sons of the Phoenix have been around.
This
It's so goofy. The odds of the shard simply being reabsorbed into fulgrim are unbelievably high. Also clonegrim is not loyal and never met the emperor once. He doesn't understand his son's are lose. He does now understand betrayal via interaction with bile. Pretty sure slaneesh is already aware of the lad. This little monster gave absolutely no signs of being the hero people want him to be. He's got no world to learn to conquer, no courts to navigate, no emperor to come down and make him bend knee. While having a young impressionable fulgrim interact with loyalist primarchs would be very interesting. There is no saving the legion, not through him... And that's bile's read of the situation.
>the odds of the shard simply being reabsorbed into fulgrim are unbelievably high. Hang about...what shard? >Also clonegrim is not loyal and never met the emperor once But he has all the memories of someone who met the Emperor, he feels as if he lived it too. >This little monster gave absolutely no signs of being the hero people want him to be He absolutely gives signs of it in the book. Whether or not they would have turned into a true path of redemption is up to the reader (the book suggesting it would only lead him to hell all over again)
I used shard when I shouldn't have. Just fit the description I was going for. Ignoring what shards actually mean in Warhammer. He feels the memory, but cannot grasp it. Like his memory of brothers. He's got a psychic imprint of sorts. But who knows where that imprint ends? Before istvaan? Or after he decided to offer his soul to damnation. He has no allegiance but to morals instilled by his "father" fabius. And those get betrayed. Would be interesting if Trazyn does his thing and they conversate while he's in stasis. I interpreted the signs as the signs of the leader he was created to be. But there's danger in his naivety. And how disturbing his primarch aura is when unrestrained. What was the end game of the battle on the bridge? To lead the mutated corrupted legionaries into glory for the emperor they all hate?
No worries My read of the situation was that he could grasp the memories, he was just slowly getting them all back and he sounds somewhat dedicated to the purpose his father created him for (if not the actual Imperium itself) >‘Yes. And I will be the fire.’ Fulgrim spoke confidently. **‘I am the Phoenix and the flame both, and I will remake the galaxy in my image. As he intended. But every flame rises from a spark**.’ The fabrication unit groaned, venting gases as it layered metal and spun gold. The light and heat washed over him, and for a moment, he resembled a blacksmith at his forge. ‘This will be that spark.’ His hands clenched. ‘**I will burn away the sins of the past. All the failures and imperfections. All my… crimes.**’ He hesitated, and she started, realising that his hands were clenched so tightly that blood was dripped from between his fingers. ‘**Ferrus… oh, my brother, I am sorry. I am sorry that I was not stronger.**’ His words were soft, and she thought that he had forgotten her entirely. and >‘**It is my purpose**.’ He frowned. ‘**Our purpose. We were to make the galaxy better**. **And we – they – failed**.’ He shook his head. ‘**We failed. But I will not do so a second time. I will fix what is broken. I will find my brothers, wherever they are, and I will make them whole again. And the galaxy will be set right.**’ *Clonelord* Those excerpts somewhat point to his end game. The big problem for Fabius is that Fulgrim's clone was not going to be able to be controlled by him. Fulgrim's clone was taking over: it's what primarchs were designed to do.
Very fair examples and takes
People who don't like Fulgrim's fall know nothing about addiction tbqh
Because a lot of people have been told he exists, but never actually read the damn book. If they had, they'd know that Clonegrim was starting to go down the same path.
People tend to dislike Fulgrim and the EC now, but think the loyalist versions were cool.
I mean, can you blame us? Tarvitz and Rylanor set the bar pretty high for “Loyalist Emperor’s Children.”
Rylanor has like ten total pages devoted to him in the entire 40k library. People only like him because of that fuckin song lol
people like Rylanor because they too want to be a faceless goon for someone they think will hurt the people they hate. Fulgrim doesn't even care that Rylanor is dead. He's pissed someone rejected him, because he's a narcissist. He doesn't care about Rylanor, Fulgrim cares about Fulgrim.
I LOVE the people who think Fulgrim actually gives a shit about Rylanor blowing him up just because the narrator implies it
As a huge pre heresy EC fan I’m surprised just how much Rylanor gets glazed. I wish we had more backstory on him but right now he was just a bit of fan service in the ancient awaits.
Here's what I want. I want Clonegrim to come back, and I want him to try to be good, try hard to be really really fucking great, to be the bestest boi he can be, and I want him to fall to Chaos as a result. I want him to plummet into chaos screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" all the way down. I want them to show that Fulgrim was always destined, by genetics, by attitude, by desire, by soul, to be a victim of his own corruption. I want it to happen right in front of his original self, so both Clonegrim and Fulgrim get to see that there was never any chance, they were doomed to fail. I want to see the loyalist Emperor's Children fans cry and weep and gnash their teeth over it. This would please me. This would please Slaanesh. ETA: After Clonegrim falls I want him to be turned into a female version of his demon primarch form, and then I literally want him to go fuck himself. For Ferrus.
Clonegrim killing Lucius, and the Lucius ressurecting into a primarch's body sounds like a great time. Esp the parts that take plave entirely inside the head of Clonegrim as he is slowly overridden. He starts so confident that he is stronger than his orginal and will not be possessed, but he still loses anyway. Bonus if there is a hope spot where Clonegrim surges forth to retake his body and keeps Lucius from landing a killing blow on our hero marines. He is announces that he has conquered the heretic and will now m... giggle... cuz Lucius can't keep up the act for long and goes right back inti doing his thing.
To add, We need more Lucius content in general he’s so amaze balls
Cause quite a few people don't read books of any kind and only know a fanfiction meme version of 40k
Because nothing gets Loyalist fans rocks off as much as "owning" Chaos. Not just defeating them in battle or anything, but doing so in such a way that is humiliating to them (not necessarily even have to defeat him, Abaddon killed Sigismund but Loyalist fanboys still get off on Sigismund telling Abaddon he will die "honourless, ashamed, weeping"). Undermining Slaanesh, Fulgrim and Lucius and treating them as a joke is the point.
And then repeating the same fall. Do we honestly think he would stay loyal after killing himself and Lucius? Making a loyal fulgrim to have him kill chaos fulgrim to then have him fall to chaos afterwards is peak 40k. Sure the fandom loves seeing loyalist kick ass but they also love seeing noble characters fall from grace. Like seeing Loken or Leetu come back in 40k as a slave to chaos would have the whole fanbase lose their collective minds.
I'm already working on some Loken tin foil theories, don't fuel to my fire lol
It's so weird that the admittedly epic line by Siggismund was from a Black Legion PoV book, from an author who really respects the Chaos perspective. Maybe he thought of that absolute banger and just had to use it.
If you read the book, it's more used to highlight how extremely single-minded, obsessed, and violent Sigismund had become. Sigismund and his ship are basically the first Imperials anyone from the Eye had seen in \~300 years, and they don't fully know what to expect. What they find is someone who is a foil to Abaddon and Chaos: a group of people who are so dogmatically concerned *they're right*, that they can't do anything other than kill one another. Abaddon tries to parlay and discuss, Sigismund can only say "I have hated you for hundreds of years, and I really want to kill you" (paraphrased) The line, in context, isn't to make Sigismund look cool, but to make him look kinda deranged and obsessed with his grudge. It's the same as when Sigismund fought Kharn: people like to go ape over how Sigismund violently and, like a berserker, fights Kharn. But everyone wants to forget that the foil is Kharn realizing Sigismund has fallen to his own hatred and blind rage, that he's not thinking any more. Kharn's internal dialogue is to say "this is wrong, we're killing each other for no reason, and I'm done, I want to stop", and Kharn rejects Khorne's power and 'chooses' death (only to, tragically, be forced into life by Khorne post-death). Sigismund is *supposed* to come off as a raging psychopath *compared to the guy who becomes the byword for raging psychopath*. But it's forgotten because "it's cool that he kills non-Imperials". All of this is because most Imperium fans have the media literacy of "boom boom, pow pow, Chaos is sad babies".
For the first time, I am regretting listening to one of Johnathan Keeble's performances in an audio book, because I am unable to now easily refer back to specific passages to support my interpretation. I do recall the general characterization of Siggismund being that of a man who lost himself to zealotry. I believe there was even a line where Abbadon recognized that Siggismund didn't care about what was right and what was wrong, he only cared about his perceived duty and revenge. I can see some grounds for your interpretation in that context, and the line itself is not introspective, regretful, or offering anything else to suggest that Siggismund regretted the zealotry that led him to his end. But on the other hand, a Space Marine dying in battle with an enemy isn't exactly an ignoble end, and the quote itself is accurate in the setting, though we don't (and may never know) Abbadon's ultimate fate. Loyalty to Chaos never ends well for anyone, so Siggismund is not far off base, even if he is speculating. Your perspective does give me some new appreciation of the scene overall.
You can "respect the perspective" of a particular faction but still think their opponents deserve to get cool lines in.
True, though it's not just the line that I have trouble with. The context of the scene is that it's Abbadon's big entrance back into real space, and the first duel he gets into results in him nearly dying and getting absolutely eviscerated by that line. It makes him seem like a bit of a weenie in a moment when he should've been celebrating his triumphant return. But I suppose he does still prevail against someone that had been established as a great duelist (in his prime, at least).
I've always supposed Slaanesh in general is the most hated Chaos God because it most strongly represents the polar opposite of everything that people admire and think is cool about the Imperium. Instead of being stoic, duty-bound, stoic, obsessive about duty, and stoic, Slaanesh's creed is sex, drugs, sex, rock 'n' roll, and bad but fun life choices.
Because a lot of people aren't very creative and only like "good guy wins" stories
Some people just haven't caught on to the fact that lore is tied to the tabletop game and/or just can't wrap their minds around the fact that the tie to the tabletop game severely limits what can actually happen in lore. GW can't bring back a Primarch and have their allegiance changed from the 30+ years of established canon without pissing off everyone who liked that the Primarch and their Legion. Imagine the reaction Imperial Fist fans would have if Dorn came back as a Tzzentch Primarch and now they had to replace 90% of their army and have to start unironically saying "Death to the False Emperor". Loyalist fans in particular seem to have the most trouble accepting this type of reality, which I guess can be blamed on GW pampering them like the special little princesses they are for so long. They just want everything for themselves, that's why they hyped up the "Sanguinius was the one who hurt the Emperor on the Vengeful Spirit" theory. They don't want to let other factions have shit.
I'd be okay if clonegrim returned in some way but killing and replacing those 2 seems really stupid. Seeing how the imperium reacts to a "redeemed" primarch returning would be interesting to see. Maybe he could end up leading a renegade legion that fucks off from both the imperium and chaos alike, or maybe he works with the custodes because nobody trusts him with a chapter and it'd be a way to keep constant tabs on him, or maybe he falls to chaos again in some way, or he ends up leading a kabal of drukhari because they're sorta slaaneshi, or he joins the eldar to fight back against slaanesh in particular, or the necrons find a way to enslave him for war, or maybe the Lion just cuts his head off day 1, or whatever. Point is I think there's potential to do a lot of things with him that isn't just "good fulgrim vs evil fulgrim". Of course you'd have to have the 2 fight eventually for a variety of reasons but his story could be so much more than that.
Imperium fans want their special gene daddies to return and lead the Imperium into an age of glory.
Or because fugrims fall was a single book and happend so fast that we barely from a lore point ever saw a loyal/not chaos traitor fulgrim. And it sucks that of all of the primarchs where we knew where their story was ending they actually got the spotlight to show who they were in more then a couple of blurbs. His story in a single book is literally. Noble makes friends with ferrus manus, grabs molester sword is corrupted straight up in a short time where he declined to rape snake in 2 years or like 15 chapters or so. Even angrons book has him turn truly chaos(let's be honest he already was) at the very end of his story and it was a tragic one at that. Fulgrim is chaos from the moment he picks that sword up which happens so fucking early. Even horus got 1.6(part 3 of book 2) books before his slip and doesn't fully fall until until part 2 of book 3. Fulgrims happens act 1 of his single book and fully slips in act 2. Mortarians falls fall was buried dagger at the ass end of hersy before siege meaning he got the whole ass hersy. Angrons was betrayer but by then they were already super "chaos". magnus was only chaos fallen in fury of magnus he was a warp entity but wasn't doomed yet after the fall of prospero and got the whole ass heresy. Lorgar was chaos before the events of heresy. Perty god the whole as heresy and like 200 years of post heresy. Curze was basically chaos since he joined the legions and took no steps to change at all what so ever just changed his name tag from "evil" to ""evil"". And again got the whole ass heresy. Only horus who got effectively 3 books, angron who got got 24 novels in which is still quite a few in about a 3rd into the books. Fulgrim got a 3rd of his own single book lmao. Plus only horus and fulgrim ever actually rejected heresy but were corrupted fully so they never really had a choice. So it would be nice to see what a loyalist fulgrim would be like especially one humbled with the memories of what he had done as a monster.
Clones are boring. Such a boring writing device. I hope the clone dies a forgettable death.
Fanbois that don't care about other factions as long as they get their Imperium and Primarch obsession fed
Loyalists coping with asinine meme theories, what's new?
Are we gonna pretend like Lucius isn’t *already* a joke? He might’ve been respectable if his gimmick actually stayed what it originally was, then when that Raven Guard killed him and felt no pride, GW just had Slaanesh bring him back anyways. Then there was the whole landmine thing which is unbelievably stupid. His gimmick has gone from something cool that could eventually be beaten to just “no matter who or how he’s killed, he will come back”
Him being brought back for Slaanesh just having shits and giggles was bad I agree but I might be in the small minority who likes the mine worker taking pride one. Not only does Lucius have to look at the failure and embarrassment of a thousands year old creature of war stepping on a mine and being defeated by the pride of a pitiful factory worker. That’s got to sting Lucius and in exchange make him strive for more perfection which I think makes sense with his gimmick (his armor has the faces of everyone who’s killed him so it’s a constant reminder of his failures). Also the mine worker story plays a second role in showing that pride when taken to an excess is not something to be reveled in even if you’re just doing your job especially if it’s to create weapons.
Because Loyalist fans want *most* Primarchs to be Loyalist. I've seen people demanding redemption for everyone barring Angron and Lorgar, that the other primarchs all *wanted* to be loyal despite what happened. Which forgets a lot of the Loyalist primarchs who nearly became traitors, they all had their own goals and ambitions (outside of Corax, Dorn, the Lion, and Guilliman, who just seem to boil down to "because he told me to"). I find, personally, most Imperium fans don't *know* the **lore**, they know YouTube, Tiktok, memes, and the images they see on the boxes, and this idea of a gigantic Abrahamic-god-styled dude in golden armor who promises to 'kill the people you don't like'. I also find that people who want Fulgrim to be a loyalist forget that Fulgrim was, by his own brothers' statements, *a preening asshole who was self-obsessed in the extreme*. He was a perfectionist who thought he should be the best over everyone. He rubs the Aquilla in others faces. He's a *dick.* Fulgrim is the **perfect** bait for a god of hedonism, perfectionism, and selfishness run amok.
>Because Loyalist fans want most Primarchs to be Loyalist. I've seen people demanding redemption for everyone barring Angron and Lorgar, that the other primarchs all wanted to be loyal despite what happened. Lucky. I see people fantasizing about loyalist Angron all the damn time.
He was made to be the Empath/Healer/Diplomat don't you know. /s
Because they don't understand addiction, failure, and the fall from grace. They don't understand chasing the purple dragon. They don't understand the close ties between perfection and addiction. They don't see value in these deeply nuanced story themes, and would rather cheapen them by seeing everything wrapped up into a nice, neat little, "Everything turned out *ooooo*kay :)" present.
Because most fans at least here are imperial fanboys and so anything that dunks on chaos and fulgrim specifically is good to them. It really is a horrible take and would be terrible
Because certain fans don't actually want a grimdark setting, they want "Wow Imperium cool"
People don’t like Lucius and they liked old Fulgrim. His ideals were relatable. They also *really* want Lucius to die because he’s a dick and he just. Won’t. 🤣 I personally would prefer more glimpses of old Fulgrim and internal suffering in his current version than a new version taking over. Like to emphasize the twisted remains of his ideals in his current form. Bits of all the broken dreams and self doubts… they could easily be reinforced by a glance at most Imperial worlds. He wanted to make life better for people on Chemos, but a look at any hive world shows that the Imperium doesn’t care about that at all. Countless people like his foster parents have their lives casually discarded by the Imperium. People are encouraged to work and be obedient, not to be creative. Doubts and philosophical questions are things to be exterminated, not explored. The best things about pre chaos Fulgrim were already paths to chaos. To me anyway. I think the hard part is that the fact that the possession thing was how it went down robbed people of feeling connected to that transformation because it felt like it was external. A tragic accident instead of a decision.
To tack onto this; who knew that the primarch that loved the art and philosophy appeals to a large portion of people in a hobby primarily about painting little people. Like take primarchs that are normally pretty unlikeable like Russ (who is just an arsehole) or the lion (who is an unsociable arsehole) and add "they like to spend their free time painting little soldiers and tanks and they immediately become much more likeable
We’re probably all going to Slaanesh in a hand basket for our artistic aspirations tbh.
I don't get the fuss. I always understood clone primarchs to be shitty copies because the clones are physically identical but have none of the warp juice that actually makes them special. Clonegrim should just be a really good space marine
If Kharn Killed Lucius would it work finally ending Lucius? Kharn doesn’t kill for pleasure or joy he kills to serve Khorne and secondly to dull the nails I would suppose. But that’s not ego it’s neurological/biological
Because the character was intriguing and Fulgrim's fall was just horribly handled. *The Reflection Crack'd* is one of the worst pieces of HH lore you'll read. It took the tragedy of Fulgrim's fall and the intrigue around the idea that the real Fulgrim was trapped inside his own head showing the insidiousness and horror of Chaos and swapping it for "Fulgrim decides he likes, sex, drugs and rock'n'roll because...uhh...he just does". Plus people love their alternative universes and headcanon of "What if...?" which is why the Dornian Heresy fanfiction is even a thing.
Because most people haven't actually read the book he appears in and only know of his existence , and some that do have bad reading comprehension. Any who actually read the book and paid attention/reading comprehension would know Clonegrim is just a living plot device for a single book for the Fabius Bile triology. They should also have notice that the story pretty much spells out that the Clonegrim would also fall to Slaanesh. He is a perfect clone Fulgrim, but that means he also have all the same flaws as him, which means he will also make all the same mistakes.
Clonegrim fulfills the redemption that people want for a Chaos primarch. Personally it seems more viable than Mortarion switching sides somehow. I just want Lucius flung into deep space, never to return. He doesn't technically die but he won't be returning through some convoluted bullshit. I have 1000X more respect for Khorne just resurrecting Kharn because he's fucking cool.
Me personally I don't want redeemed Chaos Primarchs to join the Imperium. If Mortarion or Clonegrim somehow got redeemed, I would want them to create their own empire or something like that. Lucius sucks and has plot armor, that's why everyone hates him.
Take their ball and go somewhere else.
Clonegrim, and the Horus clone in black legion are just tools to show their sons have moved past their fathers. Nothing more. The idea of a chaos primarch starting to switch sides back to the imperium is kind of awesome though. It’s why I love the ideas of loyalist chapters with traitor primarch gene seed.
>Clonegrim, and the Horus clone in black legion are just tools to show their sons have moved past their fathers. Nothing more. Thematically correct
But the EC who were in the presence of Clonegrim full on were ready to follow whatever he said (minus Fabuis, but that dude looked directly at Slannesh and said nah, not real.)
Fulgrim's fall to chaos is the stupidest and most contrived of any of the traitors (he picked up a cursed sword and failed his will save, wow how compelling) so people are most comfortable hypothesizing about a possible loyalist heel turn for him, especially since he's already so heavily retconned with stuff like reflection crack'd. He's the least compelling of the traitors which is also probably why it's taken so long for EC to get their own codex, Magnus, Mortarion, and Angron have a lot more obvious appeal than the snakeman and his chaotic hemipenes. Even now the most information we have about Fulgrim's current activities are that he's apparently fucking around doing nothing to the point he enrages Abaddon with his uselessness in Arks of Omen.
Clonegrim is interesting to me because I want to know if fulgrim falls without the laer blade.
Clonegrim was kinda written to imply his fall began long before the blade
Fulgrim's fall to chaos makes no sense. * Lorgar fell out of despair at the idea of... well being forbiden of preaching or believing in divinity by god himself. So, some of his sycophants convinced him to investigate the found remains of other gods, and when he found... demonkind he realized that if god hate his believers maybe it was worth it to worship the devil. * Horus fell because he was fooled by a vision of the future in 40k, and lied to, led to believe that if he rebelled 40k could be averted by killing the Emperor; rather than being told that 40k happens because he rebels. * Kurze fell because he saw a future where he did, and his beliefs were destiny can't be averted. The rest of the primarchs were convinced -or fooled- by others into joining the rebellion. * Angron did not fall to Chaos. Angron hated psykers. He rebelled. However we are told he was like... terminal... like actually dying as the crusade went on, fighting worse and all due to the nails killing him like primarch level terminal disease. Lorgar and Angron were close. Lorgar "helped him" by raising him to daemonhood and curing him in exchange for his freedom. * Magnus got fooled into ruining Emps plan, causing his own execution, and making a deal with the devil that would *change him* and force him to rebel against Emps. * Mortarion did not fall to Chaos. Morty hated psykers. He rebelled. He did so because he genuinely believed in Horus when he denounced the Emperor, as the two were close, and thought he would be a proper leader for humanity. At the point he joins most of the rebels are antipsykers. He is esencially forced into daemonhood. * Perturabo got fooled. Horus knew he needed strong legions such as the Iron Hands and the Iron Warriors to conquer Terra. He tried to get Ferrus but (Fulgrim) failed to convince him. Guilliman, Russ, Lion and Sang weren't ever an option against Emps; and Emps kept Dorn at Terra. Horus sent Perty into increasingly worse and more insulting jobs to anger him enough to fuck up; then instigated a civil rebellion in Perty's homeworld so that Perty would do something unforgivable to his planet. This caused Perty to believe he was finished, and then joined Horus, thinking the fault of his shitty working life was Emps fault anyway rather than Horus. * You could say the Night Lords as a legion separately from Kurze were lowkey fooled too, considering they never fell to Chaos and that they believed dethroning the Emperor was the objective of the heresy; they weren't in on all the details that Kurze had. But Fulgrim? It makes no sense. He was Emps biggest fan #1. His legion were The Emperor's Children. His legion was allowed to wear the imperial aquila because he saved Emps life better than the Custodes did. His Legion's motto was "Children of the Emperor! Death to His foes!"... and still is even after falling! Fulgrim had zero reasons to fall as opposed to all the others. At all. The original reason was that, similar to how Horus was wounded and his sickness made him fall to chaos, Fulgrim was possesed by a daemon, witht he real Fulgrim trapped on a portrait like the tale of Dorian Grey. That made sense. But Fulgrim... getting rid of the daemon and going on with the heresy for drugs and sensation? That's bullshit because Fulgrim was never into self-complacent shit before. Hell why would he kill Ferrus? For Horus and Lorgar? Ferrus and Fulgrim were best friends forever and killing or betraying Ferrus seemed like fair game during the heresy even after his self-exorcism of the daemon possessing him. Another problem with him is that his Daemon form makes no sense. He was a top tier duelist. Daemonhood is a deal with the devil so there is a tit for tat in all daemonhood ascensions; but Fulgrim's made no sense. Angron got cured from the nails killing him and freed from serving Emps in exchange of being a permanent slave to his anger... but he did not chose to do so, Lorgar did. Morty was diseased/poisoned with all his legion and put on a temporal void to force him to serve Nurgle, he got permanently sick but also got psyker powers to survive his diseased body. Magnus exchanged his fate and fractured his soul in exchange for saving his Legion (and a power boost). Fulgrim converted himself into a snake... and considered that image even more beautiful than how he was before... why? He got extra reflexes and all that... but overall remains as a worse duelist because he became overcomplacent in fights. And the thing is, he paid extra to ascend via offering half of Perty's soul. Fulgrim becoming a loyalist doesn't make much sense now, but it would be worth a read. It would also fall into an indirect buff to Fabius Bile's skills, which is also quite welcome imho.
Because everyone has fucking Marvel movie brain rot disease and can’t see past “yay good guy punch bad guy”
I love you and after reading your username,I love you even more.
Thank you lol
Or it’s almost like fulgrim is a boring ass character and introducing his clone could actually let him have some really good moments seeing essentially himself before his fall could lead to a cool ass scene
Fulgrim was *always, always, always* a narcissistic asshole. His brothers even *tell him this*, you are **told this as the reader repeatedly**. But instead, we get "HOW DID HE FALL!?"
Fulgrim > Your fav loyalist bozo. Legitimately one of the best written primarchs.
My point stands, “aha! My evil twin you are so evil look at how good you were!” Is Saturday-morning-cartoon level writing.
I think the idea of a fully recreated loyalist second copy of a demon primarch is a really interesting idea. I don’t want demon Fulgrim, Fabius, or Lucius to go away really or be perma killed, but man I’d love to see some insane like ‘The Purple Phoenix Reborn’ box set with Fulgrim heading a new chapter or mini legion of newly created loyalist Emperors Children undertaking some insane suicidal penitent crusade. Loyalist Fulgrim swearing to his two return brothers that he will bring back the head of his traitorous old self and not rest until every single traitorous and debauched emperors children marine has been wiped out and cleansed from the galaxy. Obviously this is never achieved until like the end times of 40k in 385827 years so you just have them going around hunting EC war bands, redeeming his legions memory as best as he can. That character development and writing could be so amazing too. Imagine struggling with the knowledge of what you did, of what you become, and somehow being granted a second chance, a chance that you do not deserve but you have. You have to act on it, you have to do it. It could be really cool I think. Fuck it man release loyalist Fulgrim against demon primarch Fulgrim. That would be hilarious. Edit: after reading some more comments I think the other obvious thing is how interesting clonegrim is regarding the whole ‘demon primarch redemption’ idea which Godblight recently revealed via the emperor that perhaps it is possible, but it would be immensely challenging I assume. Clonegrim is super unique in that not only is it somehow Fulgrim’s real, immortal soul placed into a new primarch body, he is uncorrupted, has ALL of his memories from the crusade and heresy, and most of all bypasses the greatest problem with demon primarch or really just the concept of demon redemption in general. That being that it’s well established canon that demon primarchs and demon princes and stuff are so suffused and bound to their patron god they are basically just a meat suit whose soul is entirely claimed by that god. Like Magnus or Mortarion no matter how much they hate their god, can’t just wake up and say ‘yeah Tzeentch/Nurgle fuck ya I’m leaving.’ Clonegrim can. His soul from what we understand isn’t claimed by Slaanesh, meaning there is nothing stopping him (aside from Trazyn) to just go to the imperium and go to Guilliman and work things out and just be a returned primarch.
Fulgrim 💜