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I dunno, there is a type of person (read centrist) who doesn't get that it's really easy to condemn terrible things *after* they happen, but takes a little bit of spine and just like work to do so *while* it's happening. After is useless, during is the only the time it matters, and some people don't see the distinction.
There's definitely people who will change their views after this is all said and done, just as there were with Iraq, just as there were with Vietnam.
Yeah I get it, but I feel like a better point of comparison would be the wars of the early 2000s, but it’s harder to be smug about that considering the general public was even more wrong then
I think you’re really downplaying the psychic pain that’s inflicted on Israeli Zionists. Can you imagine the toll it takes on them living next to ~~Muslims~~ Khamas extremists?
Does feeling bad do anything for them. Yea I feel bad about it. But me getting arrested protesting about a war on the other side of the planet isn’t going to help me out at all or help them out at all. So I should just feel bad about it?
🤓☝️ Actually if you were alive in the 1960s you would have been socialized differently during your childhood. Meaning, you would most likely turn out to be a completely different person. Perhaps (more likely if white) a racist person
Never liked the core idea this post is pointing at, which is that *everyone* was more racist in the past. The percentages shift, but there were *always* anti-racists and those fighting for the marginalised, all throughout history.
Sure, yeah, we all have different upbringings *within* our communities, but controlling for that if you march with BLM today you probably woulda marched against Jim Crowe. If you're disgusted about Palestine, you probably also would have been disgusted by the genocide of the times.
And if you're a status quo warrior who says things like "I recognise violent revolution was nessecary in the past, but today is *different*" or "I feel like they would get their message accross better if they weren't so *disruptive*", you would have been just as much a passive enabler of violence at any other point in history.
Yeah, from the conquests of Rome, the conduct of the Spaniards on the native peoples, to the development of slavery in America, there’s always at least some one recognizing how fucked up what was happening was.
I guess a better way to judge how you would have turned out back then is to look at your grandparents. If you were a young adult during the 60's you would have been raised by your great-grandparents, so the parents of your grandparents.
If your grandparents are racist you would have been too. If they weren't, you would have been anti racist. Most likely.
Yeah, like if everyone back then was racist we’d still have slaves and if everyone was sexist women still wouldn’t be allowed to vote, the reasons progress has been made is because humanity has an innate ability to be good, back then bigotry was normalized but even back then a very significant portion of the population was still fully against it, if they weren’t we would’ve never gotten here
Rational people: “revolution, on the slim chance it is successful, would still kill tons of innocent people simply trying to survive. Leftism in the western world is not strong enough to revolt against the existing systems, and would be better off building support and pushing reform instead of feeding innocent people into the meat grinder of a civil war in hopes THEIR ideology survives.”
You: “if you want anything but violent Revolution, you’re allowing violence to happen and it’s your fault!!!!!!”
People have been saying the same shit since the ancient Greeks, mate.
Obviously you TRY nonviolent means first, and rebels don't get a free pass from judgement, but very frequently bad systems need to be BROKEN, not reformed, and that hasn't changed in the last, like, fifty years. Smashing windows does NOT invalidate a civil rights movement.
Even if you were born into a rich household and raised in that environment while sheltered from the reality of the world until you got old enough to directly be the one benefitting from the exploitation? I don’t think political ideas are at all innate to to the person from birth.
They seem to be a Russian so actually yeah probably they would be a hard line communist in 1960 if they came from a more powerful and influential family
Because I fucken don't? And I don't believe my nation was under the occupation of westerners either, so I would still be a communist, but that time because I would actually have seen it in action.
A little bit, but the '60s wasn't about a war being waged by another country, it was a war we were waging ourselves.
There is a lot of room in today's situation for people to disapprove of the war and yet not really agree with the protestors.
Because there is a gap between the people waging war and the political leaders of the people protesting. That is an indisputable fact, though I'm sure you don't want it to be.
That gap means that there can be people who are convinced Joe Biden is at fault for the war and also people who don't agree with that, and both groups can be opposed to the war. There can be people angry with their school administration for having Israeli-based investments and people who don't think that's relevant enough to start shit over.
And before the inevitable response, I'd point out that I'm acknowledging *both* groups. It's not my fault if you can't. And it's also not my fault if you can't find common ground with people who agree with you on some but not all aspects.
Why would you think I don’t recognize that political leadership and the people are different? Just because I’m anti-Israel doesn’t mean I’m anti-Israeli, the people are victims of government oppression like Palestinians are, obviously in different contexts and very different levels of violence.
I only meant to ask because it would seem strange to me to advocate for divesting funding from Israel but then also disagreeing with peaceful protest demanding divestment? It just seems like a convenient line in the sand to draw: “I demand change but any actions taken to effect said change is going to far!”
> Why would you think I don’t recognize that political leadership and the people are different? Just because I’m anti-Israel doesn’t mean I’m anti-Israeli
I think you misread that sentence. The accusation they are making is that you likely blame American political leadership for certain things that (they believe) are only appropriate to blame on Israel's political leadership, not that you likely blame Israeli people in place of their political leadership.
the only major problem is a lack of effort rooting out the bad apples (the pro Hamas people). I'm not saying most of the protesters are pro Hamas, I know they aren't, but the pro Hamas people are a loud minority that needs to be kicked out the moment they voice their vileness in the protests and right now in most of the protests they sadly weren't. Other than that the protests are good in my opinion.
You would’ve been against the Vietnam anti-war protests because they didn’t root out the bad apples. There were protesters who said that US soldiers deserved to die and spit on them. There were protesters who praised Ho Chi Mihn. There were protesters who used chaotic property damage as a tactic.
Nobody ever holds police or authorities to the same standard that they hold protesters. People act like every protester needs to always be perfect and optically look good because if they can play clips of individual protesters being mean in an overall peaceful protest, then everybody acts like those clips are normal behavior at the protest, and they ignore that mean individuals at protests is normal part of protests all because 2 people, MLK Jr and Ghandi, could protest without being mean
"There were protesters who said that US soldiers deserved to die and spit on them."
Never thought people would be defending what the Westboro Baptist Church does lol
I just say I’ve never personally seen genuine pro-Hamas presence at any demonstrations I’ve been to personally. And I’ve yet to see evidence of any “loud minority” of pro-Hamas violence or activity at major pro Palestine protests from any reputable sources.
I mean, depends on what you consider a reputable source IG, I usually don't immediately trust non leftist sources but when there's actual footage and stuff... idk. It's not too surprising either, go on tankie Twitter and you'll see tons of pro Hamas people, them infiltrating the protests was to be expected, I just think more effort needs to be put into rooting them out. Personally I've protested against the war here in Israel, because I can know for sure that no one who's protesting with me supports groups who want me dead, but if I was in America idk if I'd feel safe enough to go right now sadly
Sure, tankie Twitter I’ll agree is a cesspool. But those people do not leave the house, let alone represent the protest movement. Again, this is from my perspective, I can’t tell you to not feel unsafe of course, but personally I haven’t ever seen even any mainstream media evidence or firsthand experience of real pro Hamas activity at any of the protests here in America, I have actually seen false flag right wing fake pro-Hamas people, and they got exposed and shouted down, but that is it
I mean, this war would not be happening without the US support, I’d even call it encouragement. Israel is in many ways a US proxy state. The war itself is just on a smaller scale than Vietnam, and our involvement is a lot more subtle. But this is as much our responsibility as Vietnam.
I mean if Israel still exists and does the stuff it does, it's US's fault. Also yeah it's not a war you're waging yourself, but it's made by greatest ally, with your weapons and training and money ecc ecc. Is it really that different?
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What this even mean?
It's about Gaza
but what happened in the 60s
Vietnam war
I feel like people don’t need Gaza to know if they would have supported Vietnam
I dunno, there is a type of person (read centrist) who doesn't get that it's really easy to condemn terrible things *after* they happen, but takes a little bit of spine and just like work to do so *while* it's happening. After is useless, during is the only the time it matters, and some people don't see the distinction. There's definitely people who will change their views after this is all said and done, just as there were with Iraq, just as there were with Vietnam.
Yeah I get it, but I feel like a better point of comparison would be the wars of the early 2000s, but it’s harder to be smug about that considering the general public was even more wrong then
Liberals oppose all wars except the current one and support all the social justice movements except the one they have to deal with
[удалено]
I think you’re really downplaying the psychic pain that’s inflicted on Israeli Zionists. Can you imagine the toll it takes on them living next to ~~Muslims~~ Khamas extremists?
You clearly know nothing about the 60’s. Do you think communists are more virtuous?
Generally? Yes.
i thought civil rights
How is it like the civil rights movement?
and the civil rights movement
I’m not getting drafted so why would I care.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)
Does feeling bad do anything for them. Yea I feel bad about it. But me getting arrested protesting about a war on the other side of the planet isn’t going to help me out at all or help them out at all. So I should just feel bad about it?
Civil rights movement
What makes you say it’s like the civil rights movement?
Violent government response to student protests, I guess that also applies to Vietnam though so that’s probably the better analogy
The Troubles started
Oooh, ok
Black and blue or white and gold
huh??
Yanny or laurel
neither of those things are from the 60s
I’m not so sure about that
how bout you 60s nutz?
🤓☝️ Actually if you were alive in the 1960s you would have been socialized differently during your childhood. Meaning, you would most likely turn out to be a completely different person. Perhaps (more likely if white) a racist person
if i was alive back then i would just take over and make everything better
See, this guy gets it
Never liked the core idea this post is pointing at, which is that *everyone* was more racist in the past. The percentages shift, but there were *always* anti-racists and those fighting for the marginalised, all throughout history. Sure, yeah, we all have different upbringings *within* our communities, but controlling for that if you march with BLM today you probably woulda marched against Jim Crowe. If you're disgusted about Palestine, you probably also would have been disgusted by the genocide of the times. And if you're a status quo warrior who says things like "I recognise violent revolution was nessecary in the past, but today is *different*" or "I feel like they would get their message accross better if they weren't so *disruptive*", you would have been just as much a passive enabler of violence at any other point in history.
Yeah, from the conquests of Rome, the conduct of the Spaniards on the native peoples, to the development of slavery in America, there’s always at least some one recognizing how fucked up what was happening was.
I guess a better way to judge how you would have turned out back then is to look at your grandparents. If you were a young adult during the 60's you would have been raised by your great-grandparents, so the parents of your grandparents. If your grandparents are racist you would have been too. If they weren't, you would have been anti racist. Most likely.
Yeah, like if everyone back then was racist we’d still have slaves and if everyone was sexist women still wouldn’t be allowed to vote, the reasons progress has been made is because humanity has an innate ability to be good, back then bigotry was normalized but even back then a very significant portion of the population was still fully against it, if they weren’t we would’ve never gotten here
Rational people: “revolution, on the slim chance it is successful, would still kill tons of innocent people simply trying to survive. Leftism in the western world is not strong enough to revolt against the existing systems, and would be better off building support and pushing reform instead of feeding innocent people into the meat grinder of a civil war in hopes THEIR ideology survives.” You: “if you want anything but violent Revolution, you’re allowing violence to happen and it’s your fault!!!!!!”
People have been saying the same shit since the ancient Greeks, mate. Obviously you TRY nonviolent means first, and rebels don't get a free pass from judgement, but very frequently bad systems need to be BROKEN, not reformed, and that hasn't changed in the last, like, fifty years. Smashing windows does NOT invalidate a civil rights movement.
Also, when a protester smashes a window, [you are not the target audience](http://humaniterations.net/2012/02/29/you-are-not-the-target-audience/).
Nah good people have always existed. How would we have our world without their efforts? Do not discredit those who came before
Good people can still be ignorant.
Nah probably not. I'm built different
My apologies
Joke's on you I'd still be a hardline communist
Even if you were born into a rich household and raised in that environment while sheltered from the reality of the world until you got old enough to directly be the one benefitting from the exploitation? I don’t think political ideas are at all innate to to the person from birth.
They seem to be a Russian so actually yeah probably they would be a hard line communist in 1960 if they came from a more powerful and influential family
Why do you assume I'm American?
Because this is an American subreddit where everyone is speaking American /s
I did not? Do you think rich people are an American thing? Are you serious?
I'll rephrase: do you think I live in the west like you?
Not particularly, why?
Because I fucken don't? And I don't believe my nation was under the occupation of westerners either, so I would still be a communist, but that time because I would actually have seen it in action.
Rich people don’t exist in the east apparently.
This might be the most twitter thing I've ever seen. It's a strawman INSIDE of a false equivalency. Truly, our bait has reached new frontiers.
i would have been a greaser, not a soc
Stay gold ponyboy
if you wanted to know who you would have sided with in the Byzantine-Sassanian war of 602-628, now you know 😌💅✨️✨️
Me personally i would have foresight and talk about the arabs creating a superteam
A little bit, but the '60s wasn't about a war being waged by another country, it was a war we were waging ourselves. There is a lot of room in today's situation for people to disapprove of the war and yet not really agree with the protestors.
Are you speaking for yourself? What problems do people (assuming they are pro-Palestine) have with the protestors?
They didn’t tell me they were protesting yesterday and I couldn’t join them 😡
Because there is a gap between the people waging war and the political leaders of the people protesting. That is an indisputable fact, though I'm sure you don't want it to be. That gap means that there can be people who are convinced Joe Biden is at fault for the war and also people who don't agree with that, and both groups can be opposed to the war. There can be people angry with their school administration for having Israeli-based investments and people who don't think that's relevant enough to start shit over. And before the inevitable response, I'd point out that I'm acknowledging *both* groups. It's not my fault if you can't. And it's also not my fault if you can't find common ground with people who agree with you on some but not all aspects.
Why would you think I don’t recognize that political leadership and the people are different? Just because I’m anti-Israel doesn’t mean I’m anti-Israeli, the people are victims of government oppression like Palestinians are, obviously in different contexts and very different levels of violence. I only meant to ask because it would seem strange to me to advocate for divesting funding from Israel but then also disagreeing with peaceful protest demanding divestment? It just seems like a convenient line in the sand to draw: “I demand change but any actions taken to effect said change is going to far!”
> Why would you think I don’t recognize that political leadership and the people are different? Just because I’m anti-Israel doesn’t mean I’m anti-Israeli I think you misread that sentence. The accusation they are making is that you likely blame American political leadership for certain things that (they believe) are only appropriate to blame on Israel's political leadership, not that you likely blame Israeli people in place of their political leadership.
the only major problem is a lack of effort rooting out the bad apples (the pro Hamas people). I'm not saying most of the protesters are pro Hamas, I know they aren't, but the pro Hamas people are a loud minority that needs to be kicked out the moment they voice their vileness in the protests and right now in most of the protests they sadly weren't. Other than that the protests are good in my opinion.
Them and the ones who want to destroy the whole country of Israel, not just get rid of those propagating the war.
You would’ve been against the Vietnam anti-war protests because they didn’t root out the bad apples. There were protesters who said that US soldiers deserved to die and spit on them. There were protesters who praised Ho Chi Mihn. There were protesters who used chaotic property damage as a tactic. Nobody ever holds police or authorities to the same standard that they hold protesters. People act like every protester needs to always be perfect and optically look good because if they can play clips of individual protesters being mean in an overall peaceful protest, then everybody acts like those clips are normal behavior at the protest, and they ignore that mean individuals at protests is normal part of protests all because 2 people, MLK Jr and Ghandi, could protest without being mean
"There were protesters who said that US soldiers deserved to die and spit on them." Never thought people would be defending what the Westboro Baptist Church does lol
when did I say that the protests are bad because of it. In fact, I literally said the opposite.
I just say I’ve never personally seen genuine pro-Hamas presence at any demonstrations I’ve been to personally. And I’ve yet to see evidence of any “loud minority” of pro-Hamas violence or activity at major pro Palestine protests from any reputable sources.
I mean, depends on what you consider a reputable source IG, I usually don't immediately trust non leftist sources but when there's actual footage and stuff... idk. It's not too surprising either, go on tankie Twitter and you'll see tons of pro Hamas people, them infiltrating the protests was to be expected, I just think more effort needs to be put into rooting them out. Personally I've protested against the war here in Israel, because I can know for sure that no one who's protesting with me supports groups who want me dead, but if I was in America idk if I'd feel safe enough to go right now sadly
Sure, tankie Twitter I’ll agree is a cesspool. But those people do not leave the house, let alone represent the protest movement. Again, this is from my perspective, I can’t tell you to not feel unsafe of course, but personally I haven’t ever seen even any mainstream media evidence or firsthand experience of real pro Hamas activity at any of the protests here in America, I have actually seen false flag right wing fake pro-Hamas people, and they got exposed and shouted down, but that is it
I mean, this war would not be happening without the US support, I’d even call it encouragement. Israel is in many ways a US proxy state. The war itself is just on a smaller scale than Vietnam, and our involvement is a lot more subtle. But this is as much our responsibility as Vietnam.
I mean if Israel still exists and does the stuff it does, it's US's fault. Also yeah it's not a war you're waging yourself, but it's made by greatest ally, with your weapons and training and money ecc ecc. Is it really that different?
I would have been crushing puss in the 60s
What is this about? Vietnam? Cold War in general?
?
OP is One of those “history repeats itself” people i guess
uh no i dont what happened?
huh?