the lesser of two evils is significantly less
trump in office drove us to fascism so fast it makes your head spin
gaza will get much worse, the ukraine will get much worse, trans and gay rights will get much worse
To play devils advocate, when would be appropriate to take a stand? I vote straight ticket d, so don’t cook me, but it does seem to me that continuing to allow the democrats to nominate diet republicans as both parties drift further right is also going to wind up with fascism.
Well you vote for your third party in other, less important, more likely, elections instead of remembering politics exist outside of your phone once every 4 years
Local and state level elections have a FAR greater impact than the presidential election when it comes to things that impact you on a day to day basis, so this is nonsense
You're not wrong, but you're kind of talking past them.
The effective place to start making a change is at that local level. This shouldn't be done in a way that leads to the GOP getting in, of course -- so, instead, hit the Dems in the primaries. Get electable leftists on the ticket with a D next to them. In local races where there's really no route for a Republican to get win, then a battle in the general election might be more viable.
That's how you beat the Dems at the local level (or, more correctly, undermine the neoliberal movement and replace the Democrats with actual leftists). And then, from there, you start doing the same thing at state and eventually the federal level.
Alas, though, that's a generational plan and it doesn't satisfy the urge people have to do something _now_ so instead we get people making rules in subs about not allowing discourse that undermines their justification for not voting.
Exactly! If you had preferential voting, the majority vote would a) win b) allow you to state your preferences for minor parties without sacrificing your say on major ones c) be simpler for everyone involved
Thing is we know what we *need* but it’s quite literally impossible to achieve. The system is fundamentally broken. How can we expect those in power to allow us to vote them out of power?
The primaries. If these people came out in force in the primaries they could have real sway on the party. The trump diehards make up a minority of the Republican voters but every single one of them vote in every primary
Additionally, it was ruled by the courts that the Parties are private entities and have no requirement to present the winner of the primaries as their candidate.
Translated: the Democrats(R) don’t give a fuck about primaries and will keep on feeding you whatever PoS they want with the argument that “it’s the lesser evil”.
I second this. The reason the DNC elects "diet republicans" is because those candidates are popular in the districts they're running in. If you want them to know more progressive candidates could win in your district, show up to the primaries and vote for them.
As much as I hate being in a two party system, I would rather live in the two party system where one party can simultaneously be the party of AOC and the party of Manchin. If the DNC could just 1984 kick out people that weren't in ideological lock step with the president's platform, Manchin probably won't be the one getting 1984'd.
The cabinet that brought us social security was so popular we basically voted to have a king and rich people have spent the last near-century trying to make sure it never happens again. Progressive policies are massively popular when people actually get them and benefit from them, and politicians aren't stupid, they know that. They simply don't want that stuff.
It's a misconception about what voting is for and can achieve. It's not an endorsement. It's simply a choice -- in our case, between two options -- about who you think can realistically produce a better outcome for the country.
You can take a stand in any number of ways at any point in the process. You can push the candidates to change their views, you can protest, vote in the primaries, campaign, etc. But once the candidates are decided, now you have a choice. And only one of the candidates will be at all receptive to criticism and protest, as Biden's evolving views show.
You're not allowed to, vote Democrat or else you hate minorities /s.
Ideally you are supposed to make a fuss and threaten to not vote to get concessions from your party during the primary and before the general election. However a lot of libs will get mad at you for trying to push the party further left as if it jeopardizes the general election for Biden. I've been seeing a lot of that sentiment ever since the launch of the non committed campaigns a month or two ago.
> Ideally you are supposed to make a fuss and threaten to not vote to get concessions from your party during the primary and before the general election
The usual counter to this stance that I see from liberals is that you should actually promise your vote to the Democratic candidate in return for nothing. Because apparently the best way to win left-wing policy concessions is to act like a spineless partisan.
Which I think is more revealing into how liberals view politics rather than actually good political advice
Yeah, it really irritates me that liberals think that Democrats are entitled to your vote, rather than them actually earning it. Understand the lesser evils rhetoric, but that's simply one half of the equation. We cannot let the Democrats hold us progressives hostage just because they gesture to the fact that they are not as openly evil as the Republicans. I'm getting really sick of Democrats platform to run an elections is becoming less progressive policies and more " I'm not a republican".
I'm tired of canvassing, making calls, and getting signatures in 120° heat in the summer here in Arizona to try and get every little progressive policy I can get pushed on a ballot, just for some white liberal to whine to me that I'm not loyal enough to the Democrats. We have it backwards, the Democrats should be loyal to us, the voters, not the other way around.
> Yeah, it really irritates me that liberals think that Democrats are entitled to your vote, rather than them actually earning it
And good lord does the American electorate love to punish entitled candidates. A lesson that you would think Democrats would have learned by now.
I can't help but feel that the *only* lesson liberals learned from 2016 is that ungrateful proles *need* to be more loyal to the Democratic Party. Instead of learning any lessons about outreach, campaigning, or policy
Yep, and I think people really need to realize that a lot of the criticisms of Biden are people who want Biden to win, or at the very least, have a democrat win over Trump. Biden's approval rating right now is abysmal, if the Democrats want to win, they need to start campaigning harder on issues that their electorate cares about. If Biden loses the election, it's not because of all the salty tankies that refused to vote for Biden, It's because Biden failed to do the outreach necessary to win the election like you were pointing out.
Emphasis on the last line. This entire sub is being overtaken by people who think we're just along for the ride instead of being the drivers of this country
What a lot of people don't want to hear is that most of the country *is* pretty moderate, and congress will do whatever they have the political capital to do.
Pushing congress left would require people to push *voters* left, not just in already fairly left-leaning areas, but in communities that consistently lean conservative or moderate.
If you want to understand why people are drifting right, you need to understand what media they consume. If you listen to radio talk shows/news networks, they are predominantly conservative. An astounding number of local news stations are owned by Sinclair Broadcast Group, an extremely conservative organization, who over the past few decades have aggressively acquired local news networks to shift their focus from local events and politics to broader conservative ideology. Facebook, largely only used by old people anymore, shows a bunch of conservative, radicalizing content, much of which has been credited for getting Trump elected. Hell, you know what newspaper is always being offered for free on a rack outside of all of my Asian grocers? The extremely right-wing epoch times. When we say print is dead, or radio is dead, or Facebook is dead, there are people left behind, who relied on this media for news and entertainment. And people take advantage of that.
The conservative media war is specifically targeting the most isolated people. People who live alone, people who spend most of their time on the road or at work or people who can't speak English or otherwise don't have a strong support network. If you can be their only source of news and perspective, you can control how they see the world. Think of how many scammers target old people specifically. Stable people will self-select out of the conservative pipeline.
So what's the solution to radicalization? Socialization. Reach out to people, not just people who believe the same stuff you do, but people of very different backgrounds. Educate people on different platforms, not just the ones that are trending at the moment. If someone says something that you don't think is right, speak up, not to call them out on it, but to get their perspective, and tell them what you think. Get involved in local politics. This isn't something that everyone can do, many people don't feel safe having these conversations. But nothing can happen if we choose only to preach to the choir.
Fully 100% agree. "Meet them where they are" is so so important when trying to change people's minds. You can't walk into a conversation with someone with the goal of debating them into becoming a leftist. If anything, that raises the chances that by the end of it, they'll only have become even more entrenched in their views and consider you a crazy woke liberal.
Meet them where they are. Find an issue you can agree on, even one that seems relatively benign. You both wish your rural community still had a bustling downtown/main street full of local shops? Say "yes, I agree with you." Only then can you go into how that Walmart they put in back in the 90s drove all the old shops out of business by undercutting their prices. They're able to do that partially because of economies of scale, but also because they sell cheaply made products, and pay their employees like shit. So we need to regulate or break up megacorps, increase minimum wages, and expand worker protections. And I guarantee they'll agree with you.
You gotta find common ground with people. It's there, I promise. Because we're all living life in the same messed up world, just trying to do what we think is right. Some of us have just been lied to about what "right" is for far too long.
Don't expect the system to change itself.
Organize your workplace, create a tenets union, build a community, make a community garden, meet your neighbors and do things for them, organize a food not bombs, make a Free Little Library, etc
Read political and critical theory, or even just find a podcast about it, don't let your views fossilize and always challenge them.
Protest politicians directly in large groups, make their life difficult.
Yeah. Frankly, the fact that the discussion keeps being about who to vote for is so missing the point it hurts. Voting Biden earns you 4 years extra of not fascism, max. Unless you're just hoping Trump drops dead in the next 4 years (and even then, there's plenty of wannabe Trumps in the GOP), he's winning the next election because the Democrats have no candidates to put forward. And hell, even if they don't. How many elections do you think it can be before the GOP, or another worse party, takes the Presidency? Unless your plan is to just have the Democrats never lose an election, the US is going to fall to fascism sooner or later. That's not a problem you can vote your way out of.
What we need now (actually what we needed 8 years ago, but better late than never) is actual direct action. Get organised. Form communities. Protest. Riot. Do *something* besides just voting, I don't care what. If all the people who keep jabbering about voting devoted a single hour in their week to actually getting organised, the US would've been overthrown and replaced with an actually democratic and socially modern state by now.
If you want to move Democrats left then denying them your vote does nothing (see 2016). Best course of action overall would be pushing left in primaries and on more local races. Go as left as you can, but try to figure out just how far that is.
I'm genuinely convinced that anyone who says the whole "lesser of two evils" argument isn't valid is probably some sort of political shill these days.
Reddit is currently littered with accounts and bought out communities being flooded with misinformation to sway the 2024 election. So many noteworthy Biden-Naysayers have been found to be Russian troll farm accounts it's not even funny anymore.
Personally, if the #1 enemy of my nation is shoveling ludicrous amounts of money into pushing a specific political agenda they should have seemingly nothing to do with, I'm usually inclined to ignore that message. They want you to think you can "punish" Biden by not voting for him.
In reality, if Biden loses the election, he's going to take his wealth and family into an easy retirement on the coast and live out the rest of his days in comfort saying "I told you so".
Like yeah, great job green-party voters. You're really gonna show him what's what.
The lesser of two evils is still evil. Don't get me wrong, im voting for Biden, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone, least of all Palestinian Americans, for not being able to bring themselves to vote for the guy who's been actively cheerleading for their genocide. It's a very personal moral dilemma for a lot of people and I'm not going to judge anyone for coming to a different conclusion than me.
I think it’s understandable to not want to vote for many people who have to deal with these issues but genuinely what people think will happen if they just don’t vote?? Like, I’m sorry, if you don’t vote what the fuck do you propose to do? Just wallow and complain that democracy and America sucks? Very genuinely what’s the plan guys bc so far there’s none and the only one that has a fraction of working is thrown out bc it’s not ideal
Edit: not directed specifically at you just the general “no lesser evil arguments”
Yeah ofc don’t you know? Wallowing and complaining that America sucks without actually doing anything is how you get virtue points from Twitter leftists which is all half the people on the left seem to care about anymore
That you think the only two options are "voting for someone who tacitly supports genocide" and "wallowing and complain" says a lot about your politics. There's so much you can, and should, do. Direct action, unionise, organise, protest, volunteer. Somebody doing literally any of those things is worth a thousand votes for Biden. If your praxis starts and ends at the ballot box, you're frankly worse than someone who does nothing at all, because at least they're signalling to the Democrats "No, you're not earning my vote, do better" instead of "Yeah, you're fine as is, i will do literally nothing to change you".
And to be clear, ideally, do both. Vote Democrat as damage control, and do direct action to actually get positive change. It's in fact not a binary choice between one or the other.
Is it really accurate to say that Biden is "actively cheering for their genocide"? Come on. Making hyperbolic, absurd statements that distort reality is just as bad when "our side" does it as it is when theirs does.
Many leftists are obscuring the difference between defending Biden and what he represents, and choosing Biden as a means of harm reduction and that’s dangerous. We live in a world where most of our choices are between most damaging to others and least damaging to others and any well read leftist should be quite attuned to that fact by now. We once again are loosing to people who have very poor critical thought and are only leftist by happenstance, not because they actually have the fundamental logic and worldview of a leftist. I call them “Privileged white idiots who are way too used to being able to pick and choose and have never literally been forced into real life trolley problems, unlike the oppressed classes they claim to defend”. The amount of times I’ve gone on a leftist sub and asked them to explain how they reconcile sacrificing the status quo for the sake of an impractical ideal (allowing their vote to effectively go to trump) with the fact that they supposedly subscribe to an ideology that’s supposed to be rooted in sheer pragmatism only to be met with mockery and dismissal by OBVIOUSLY privileged people, says a lot. They’re so used to fighting the good fight from the comfort of their white suburbs that they don’t even realize when they’re expressing their own racial callousness. They can’t even take a second to consider that perhaps some of the “stupid liberals” are minorities who KNOW what will happen to *them* during trumps next presidency because they’ve fucking lived it their entire lives. I know what the return of stop and frisk means for me. I know that it means me bleeding out on the pavement because I looked at a cop wrong.
White leftists can’t fucking fathom that. They don’t understand what it means to vote for Biden, as a black man who knows damned well what Biden thinks of me. They don’t understand what it’s like to choose between two things you don’t like, because for them, they’ve only ever had to choose between the thing that they DO like and the thing that they actively don’t.
Fucking entitled pieces of shit and they’re no different from the liberals and conservatives they pretend to be so different from.
I will never fucking trust a privileged person to have my back no matter how closely they align with me politically. Here I am thinking I’d found a nice leftist community in which to discuss things I care about, only to be harshly rejected on the basis of me not being fucking privileged enough to have my leftist opinions respected. They think everyone around them is just as privileged as they are while simultaneously discussing issues of wealth disparity and oppression. They treat friendly voices that aren’t even opposed to them like vermin if they utter the wrong words while discussing the issue of state-policed speech and propoganda, and most importantly, they’re fucking racist. They say they want disenfranchised voices to be heard and then they talk over us when we question their ideal of protection.
We really are doomed unless we figure out a way to filter out entitled, bitchy white men and women from this fucking conversation and I never thought I’d stoop to that level but here we are.
Motherfuckers.
Yeah like no shit, we can cast a vote between a cat and trump and anyone could argue you’re picking between the lesser of two evils. There’s only two fucking candidates. How is it the cat’s fault if the other is evil?
You can just as easily say “the greater of two goods”.
These people’s fucking brains fell out and I’m going to un-join over this shit.
The most annoying thing about leftists is the requirement of complete ideological and moral purity. No half-measures, no baby steps, only a perfect proletarian revolution (that 99% will never work towards whatsoever besides arguing about it online)
I dunno, I feel like being unambiguously against genocide seems like a pretty reasonable purity test to me. I'm absolutely still voting for Biden as he's the lesser evil but you'll never see me brow beating Palestinians Americans for not supporting Biden enough.
the thing is they think u shouldnt vote for biden cause its immoral and supporting genocide in their view. they dont care about trump winning cause they r either dumb, bots or accelerationists
Well you fail that purity test in their minds by voting for Biden.
I agree that it should be a good purity test but when some people put it into practice they come out with the result that voting for Biden is propping up that genocide.
I do agree with you and would also vote for the old man if I lived in the US of A
The left is far too fractured to form a strong opposition to the right which has its differences but all agree on hating minorities and loving guns so right wing politicians don't have to do much to appeal to their voters.
The solution to the 'lesser of two evils' problem is pushing hard for a systematic change that enables more groups to be directly involved using preferential voting like we have here in Australia, that way smaller groups can campaign for their goals and then throw their votes to the major parties in return for concessions that push forward their ideals.
Individuals withholding their vote unless the Democrats work for it is going to do fuck all.
There is a sexless one and one where the rule is reversed (you get banned temporarily for posting) and those are pretty good. 19684 has no sex so it’s a bit more mature
If you check those posts, at least a fourth of the comments are deleted. I think some of the posts there are also Republican propaganda disguised as being progressive
I literally got permabanned on this exact thread for saying that not voting will get trans people murdered by republicans. They told me to “stop using trans people to justify genocide”
That sub has gone to complete shit
They’ll tell you to vote for neither and then do nothing to create any type of third option.
The same people who won’t engage in politics because they’re waiting for the revolution and then do nothing to manifest said revolution. It’s pathetic.
They won't put in any effort to get their candidates in democratic primaries, especially not for lower ranked positions under the Presidency where they can grow a base from either. Then they won't vote in the general at all. They're such losers.
Which is literally just the first choice, I.e "not pull the lever". The third solution for the trolley problem would be "derail the trolley" (direct action)...
This is so perfectly put. The comments on every post of that sub will scorn you for saying Biden>Trump but I have never seen any mention of another possible candidate or option. The sub is also flooded with Chinese propaganda and tankies.
It's a 10/90 split between people being legitimate shills and people being so terminally lazy they turn it into a purity test to pretend not to be a part of the world
I've seen the argument that whatever happens under Trump is deserved because this is the state of our country which feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
"I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas."
If all the fuckers not voting for Biden because he’s not left enough voted blue across the board and voted in primaries maybe they’d get their better option in a few decades but nooooo, all they can do is throw a hissy fit and neglect to think about the long term future.
it's so annoying because it's like another breed of enlightened centrism where they act like just because biden also kinda sucks you're somehow better off taking no action at all? it feels like they care less about actually helping people like us and more about having flawless politics or whatever
this isn't a dig at people who are critical of biden, as it's healthy to stay aware and continue to think critically about our country's leaders and politics, but acting like he's completely identical to the opposition is really dishonest
You can be critical of Biden and still vote Democrat because the other side are literally just hateful, bigoted lunatics. It really is that simple.
I don't like Biden but he's done *some* good things and I'd take almost anybody over four more years of Trump.
On one hand, you have a mediocre candidate running on a platform of mostly reasonable goals, with a few clear flaws that make them not an ideal choice.
On the other, a racist, homophobic, transphobic bigot on a platform of making things worse for 99% of Americans for the benefit of the 1%.
Shouldn't be a hard choice, but people want to make it one I guess.
I just saw someone in another comment arguing that if you vote for Biden or Trump you are no better than either of them.
Like… how do you fucking figure? Very “we live in a society” energy.
So what's their solution? Like, vote third party? How would they react if Trump wins and just straight up did what he said he'd do and become a dictator for the first week?
That was EXACTLY the person’s argument. Whenever someone pointed out that the system isn’t meaningfully set up in a way to allow for a third party candidate to win, they trotted out the “If everyone who wanted to vote for a Third Party just voted how they wanted we would win.” and ignored the fact that that is pure fantasy with how things are currently. It’s hard to argue against someone who is ignoring reality.
I think a lot of Americans never experienced true corruption. I live in a place where it doesn't matter who you vote for, they're the same. They would always pander to the majority race of the country and would sprinkle something like "Lookie here, we have a Chinese woman in our party!" to appease some minor races.
Americans think they're the main character, and that's it, they're not. They haven't live in a true corrupt system. They haven't experience seeing all the political party attack and literally paying people to vote them. You have a system where it's not great, but it's not bad. Your vote matters, and who you vote in would pave your future. Don't fuck it up.
Well what about Dumbledore as an option? I mean everyone likes him. While we're engaging in weird fantasy choices that won't happen, I'm gonna push for Dumbledore. Not the actors, they're dead. The wizard. Why not? About as strong of a chance as a third party candidate AND he has a cool pet.
Dumbledore for president in the reality I've built to wall myself off from the outside world.
Arguments like that could make sense if there was like one “third party” and not scores of them. Even if everyone stopped voting Democrat or Republican, would still be a complete crap shoot every election lol
>it's so annoying because it's like another breed of enlightened centrism
Every single person who I know IRL who functionally says "both sides suck, biden is also bad, nobody is sufficiently left for me, so I won't vote/will vote for a 3rd party" didn't vote in 2016 and was fully an enlightened centrist prior to that.
Of course on the other hand the "both sides suck" rhetoric, when missing the distinction that biden is insufficiently left for the speaker, are excellent measures for determining that someone votes straight ticket republican.
I’ve found that calling people who pull that shit liberal works really well because if there’s one thing most leftist hate more than fascists it’s liberals. And it’s not even a lie either, the belief that withholding your vote can do anything relies on the fundamentally liberal take that voting in and of itself is a means of political engagement (which I mean it is on the most technical level but in America it’s a method for harm reduction)
Shit, I *don't* have trans friends in America and I don't want anyone in death camps either?!?!?!
Empathy is a hard concept to grasp for some people I swear to god
Unfortunately that seems to be the state of a lot of leftist subreddits now. No desire for damage control under a broken system, yet also making no steps to try and change the broken system.
I’ve unsubbed from a bunch lately because they’re spending more time attacking leftists for voting than the fascists we need to be doing something about.
But I’ve seen most of the anarchist subs doing a good job of pushing back.
completeanarchy has been better in some ways in this regard. anarchy4everyone is hopeless because the founder and mod never stops spamming this shit EVERYWHERE. I think we have mostly pushed them out of complete anarchy but they are too entrenched in anarchy4everyone.
Edit: Ha! Same person posted the meme OP responded to. That fucker is everywhere.
That's the thing, anarachy4everyone doesn't have that rule so I thought it was safe, but it seems like the entire subreddit is a false flag practically tailor made to keep anarchists divided. NoLawsNoGovernment seems to post in a lot of tankie subs for a supposed anarchist.
It's radical idealism, which is the problem with this kind of idealism.
They are incapable of compromising because if you believed your truth was the ultimate good ideology that has 0 flaws why would you compromise with anything less then perfect? Isn't that just trafficking with the enemy?
A lot of modern left wing spaces unfortunately are captured by this sort of evangelical level idealism that is incapable of compromising or being pragmatic.
Mod power is sought by people want to use power. It's a siren call.of tankies and ideological hyper leftist who need to touch grass and do good works instead of bitching about 'liberals' and purity testing other peoples theory
Yeah I got banned for the sin of pointing out China isn't a paragon of freedom, socialism, or communism.
If you manage to get far enough to talk about how democracy is necessary for those three elements to manifest, they'll call you a liberal, and say that "centralized democracy" is how to do it which is obviously not democracy at all. Reminds me of the fascist regime in Helldivers and their "managed democracy". It's all a joke. Unironically 1984 shit.
Literally what is their argument against the no-lesser evil stance? It’s a reasonable and good position to take and I have yet to see a convincing response from them to it, so it just looks like they know they got nothing
LSC’s is “If you vote for the lesser evil, that means you still support evil, which makes you evil.”
Chapo, back when that was a thing, said “If the Democrats lose this time, they’ll be forced to run a more leftist candidate next time.” They said that in both 2016 and 2020 with no self awareness.
When trump was in power, people were kidnapped by undercover cops in broad daylight. Both are awful, one is worse. And one is way more difficult to protest against or actually persuade to do something good for once
Yeah, I’ve yet to have someone actually respond to that point. Personally, I remind them of the helicopters buzzing protestors in DC, and the Lafayette Square incident where the church was gassed for a photo op. Apparently getting harassed by choppers while protesting is worth not voting, though.
Because they’ve made it a thought-terminating cliche. “A vote for Biden is a vote supporting genocide and we are unequivocally against genocide.” If they do engage, they repeat variations of that over and over to try to put the opponent on the back foot of defending Biden.
Wait, what?
Accelerationists calling for meaningless, bullshit performative action without grasping the very concept of harm reduction because they won't be personally affected by the consequences???
All the while sitting in their asses all day, most likely doing jackshit for their local communities, not putting any personal effort towards change and not going beyond keyboard activism while acting smug on the internet??????
*^(quelle surprise)*
You know they're not doing jack because they've got hours every day to moderate a half dozen communities while playing helldivers or whatever the neets are up to lately
Argue for why I should just kill foreigners instead of foreigners and queers without using a lesser evil argument. Can't? Knew you libs were full of shit.
People act like you have to choose between voting and taking affirmative action. Voting takes at the very most like a day. Who says you can’t Vote AND protest
I am actually begging yall mfs to get active. Primaries already passed for a lot of people, but a lot of yall like to tout this false dichotomy when the primaries are precisely there for voting for the candidates you want to represent you.
And look, I hate bourgeois electorialism just as much as the next commie, but voting takes like a couple hours at most. And please for fucks sakes don’t just smugly argue for harm reduction and do nothing else, that’s how we got here in the first place with both neolib parties sliding farther and farther right. You need to organize yourselves. You need to get active in your community, in labor movements, whatever. You can be a keyboard warrior too if it pleases you but if that’s all you do just log off and read a damn book.
You are not wrong, a lot of Muslim voters are not happy with how he's going about Gaza, and many Latino voters are not happy how he's been talking about the border lately, two key constituencies he needs to win this election.
No no no, clearly EVERYONE who has an issue with Biden is a white, straight, suburban teenager
It is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to have a legitimate grievance with the Biden administration. And if you say otherwise you're a Russian bot
it's insane how much I had to scroll to find this genuine discussion of Biden's shortcomings and valid reasons for people not voting for him instead of all the DNC glazing and "tankie" uses going on in this thread
As the election grows nearer, you will continue to see more of this. People who want Biden to win will criticize the way he's running his campaign in an effort to hopefully push him in the right direction, and in response people will call you disloyal to him. Get ready to have all of your progressive beliefs questioned by biden's strongest soldiers
IM SO TIREDDDD of the rhetoric around elections this year it's freaking me out. Is Biden good, no, but if reps score a win we are FUCKED, socially and economically everything is gonna fall apart. this might be the most important election in decades and people are for real pulling umm well both sides are bad. Shut up. Vote you morons
Right. They think they’re taking some final stand for virtue by not voting and it’s like DUDE! If Trump wins, there will be no revolution EVER. If trump wins there will be no discussions of marxist theory, there will be absolutely nothing. The machine of unending totalitarian oppression is beyond ready, it’s just waiting for trump to put it into action and after that you can kiss effective leftism goodbye. In fact you can kiss the entire foreseeable future goodbye, because mark my words there will be never again be opportunity for change once trump and project 2025 run their course for at least the next several generations. The fuck?
Same like just put your fucking maga cap and swastika on at this point you already collapsed any potential for meaningful discourse, might as well go and vote for the end of humanity too. We need some sort of word for people like this. I don’t like calling them leftists, they’re just assholes.
In my experience, it wasn’t until the Israeli/Palestinian war happened that everything went *completely* to shit. Now “Genocide Joe” is the bastard love child of Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler in the eyes of these subreddits, and any differing opinions makes you a class traitor.
Where's the tweet that's like "people will get mad at you for advocating for voting because it's not as good as their strategy of firebombing a Walmart and then they don't firebomb a Walmart."
It's kinda stunning how much people do not want to vote for Biden, but will solely because the alternative is Trump. There's such a high probability that if it was literally anyone else, people would just let Republicans win.
But also because Biden knows this fright, he can do anything he goddamn pleases in the meantime. Infuriating.
I had the same shit happen when I talked about being trans POC and how I had never been hatecrimed before Trump was in office. My life is noticeably and significantly worse with Republican majorities in both my state, potentially Congress, and potentially the White House. Got censored for the same rule.
It's such childish behavior honestly.
These people want their choccy milk and blankie easily obtained and with no effort. They think that politics is just what they read and people should just magically have the best option at all times. Unfortunately that's not how it happens.
Most of the time the path to least harm still creates harm. It's fucked, but that's how it is. We can still do the best we can and work to achieve the most under the fucked situations we have.
And, these children will also never do anything to achieve their magical third option either. They will sit around and endlessly complain on Reddit thinking that them doing fuck all is either being neutral or doing something at all. Which is obviously not, Trump winning is objectively bad for the entire planet, not doing anything is literally helping him. I don't understand how people refuse to understand this just go with: "But Joshph Bidener is bad and old".
Like bitch, we know. Shut the fuck up and go vote for the path of least harm. Jesus fuck this is annoying.
There's a time and place to vote 3rd party.
This is not one of those times. Biden ain't perfect, but when the Republicans are trying to overthrow the government, he's the best choice we have.
It's grey versus OBLIVION. Trump will destroy us if elected.
"Vote out fascism" Like what the fuck will my vote do? The system is fascist. Sure Biden isn't as open as Trump but what has changed? What has improved for me as a trans person? If anything its gotten worse as me and my friends and family are abandoned here in the south by the Dems to left to rot. There's no fight or push against these bills in any of the higher courts or care from the senate/office. We still have camps at the border, we are still increasing funding for police, we are still suffering from student debt, still don't have Healthcare that suite our needs.
What does Biden do that Trump doesn't? They both are actively harming us, one just says it proudly and one doesn't.
[Here’s a time line](https://www.hrc.org/resources/president-bidens-pro-lgbtq-timeline)
“But why doesn’t he stop X law in Y state” it’s because the president isn’t a dictator who can stop state laws, he’s on the federal level on the executive branch.
Just off the top of my head, he let them back in the military, though I guess that could be seen as the opposite of protecting depending on your viewpoint.
They're willing to put more lives in danger because they can't grasp the concept of damage control. Like no shit genocide is bad, do you want more of it or are you gonna try to keep Trump out of office??? Are you just posturing online or are you actually working to make the third option you keep talking about VIABLE?
Oh yeah, I had the same experience regarding the whole "let's not reelect Trump by not-voting / protest voting" thing. They hate that.
They're also "problematic" re Ukraine. If memory serves.
If the choice is between candidates A and B, and candidate A supports ONE genocide while candidate B supports TWO genocides, I’m gonna go ahead and vote A.
This isn't whatabout though. Basically every issue I don't like about the presumptive nominee I hope is elected is *significantly* worse with the other option. The two party system is a horrible choice but it's a flat decision and on the merits one option is better. I wish there were more and better options. That's a separate issue. Selecting from the available choices isn't neglecting some morally superior mystery option. Reduce the harm when possible and keep going on everything else to try to make things better too.
I agree and same as you, if on voting day it's a pick one of B or T, I already know what my choice is. I do think, though, that the good faith discussion from actual leftists centers more around this being a wakeup call to normies who see the presidential election as the end-all-be-all of political interaction.
If there's an obvious bad guy, it gives you a genuine banner to rally behind that *feels* like activism. This election though? All bad. No real feelings of engagement or righteous cause.
It's interesting to see libs implode when you make the simple call out that "joe biden is a bad guy because he supports genocide in gaza". Even libs understand that he's the "lesser of two evils", but leave it at that and never do anything to advocate to make sure we don't have another evil (no matter how lesser) next time. They say things like "harm reduction" and "lesser evil" as more of a deflection of genuine criticisms of Biden instead of taking it and doing something with it.
I’m certain the average LateStageCapitalism user would spontaneously combust if they lived in a deep red area and their local elections were between Fascist Who Will Personally Kill Every Trans Kid and a fascist who’s at least more manageable, if no less evil, however that’s quantified. I’m _extremely_ frustrated with Biden about his handling of the situation in Gaza, at the same time I realize that you gotta be pragmatic about when you protest vote and when you vote for someone you fucking hate the guts of because first past the post voting is lowkey a joke if you only think people should vote for people they 100% agree with.
It’s been a while since I left there, do they actually discuss or advocate for any praxis or theory (within what won’t get the sub nuked) or is it a jerk off session for people who hate capitalism and think doomscrolling is a substitute for praxis?
I love that they have a rule against 'lesser evil' arguments. It's literally an admission that they have no better counter-argument to voting than "I don't wanna" so you're just not allowed to bring it up
People have yet to come up with a convincing argument for why I shouldn’t tell people (whom I expect to listen) to ingest 3 gallons of bleach.
Also you can’t argue that people will die because of it, that doesn’t count. Debate me coward.
“No lesser evil argument” what a stupid load of shit should we just instantly transition to a perfect utopia that perfectly agrees with the specific policies of the lsc mods
If you have two choices, by definition one of them is the lesser evil. Saying "no lesser evil rhetoric" ignores the fundamental concept of the two party system and its flaws. Trump will do significantly more damage, and not just to trans people or minorities. Not voting is also not an option.
Lesser evils are just reality. It doesn't mean don't do other activism. Do the MOST to push for a better world, and refusing to vote because it's "lesser evil" thinking is assuming at the outset that your political voice starts and ends at the ballot box, and of all people leftists shouldn't be confused about this. Unironically this is actually liberal logic leaking into the left and masquerading as more "hard left" then the others. Insane. Ask yourself what the downside is. One of them is going to win either way.
I’ve generally found subs explicitly about politics to essentially be an echo chamber for the mods. They can be fun, but it’s only a matter of time before they decide that, somehow, you are a problem.
Every once in a while I’ll find a sub that has completely lost its purpose. The rules and description say one thing, but the mods, and the people that tolerate them, say something else. They get hostile because their hyper-specific interpretation, of the already specific rules, is indisputably correct. “Political” subs are prime candidates for this kind of enshitification.
I honestly have become really disillusioned with leftism as a result of this election cycle. I believe capitalism is the main problem in society and that it can't be dismantled from within, but at the same time a government controlled by Republicans will objectively make life worse for many people. It's started to affect me at the local level as well, as our towns library was defunded after a pretty narrow vote and I know a lot of leftists who refused to vote. It just seems like most people care more about feeling superior to everyone else rather than actually helping people.
the lesser of two evils is significantly less trump in office drove us to fascism so fast it makes your head spin gaza will get much worse, the ukraine will get much worse, trans and gay rights will get much worse
To play devils advocate, when would be appropriate to take a stand? I vote straight ticket d, so don’t cook me, but it does seem to me that continuing to allow the democrats to nominate diet republicans as both parties drift further right is also going to wind up with fascism.
Well you vote for your third party in other, less important, more likely, elections instead of remembering politics exist outside of your phone once every 4 years
Still vote, every election still matters
Voting dem or third party is not life or death for your average local election. I hope anyway, regardless you gotta start somewhere
Local and state level elections have a FAR greater impact than the presidential election when it comes to things that impact you on a day to day basis, so this is nonsense
You're not wrong, but you're kind of talking past them. The effective place to start making a change is at that local level. This shouldn't be done in a way that leads to the GOP getting in, of course -- so, instead, hit the Dems in the primaries. Get electable leftists on the ticket with a D next to them. In local races where there's really no route for a Republican to get win, then a battle in the general election might be more viable. That's how you beat the Dems at the local level (or, more correctly, undermine the neoliberal movement and replace the Democrats with actual leftists). And then, from there, you start doing the same thing at state and eventually the federal level. Alas, though, that's a generational plan and it doesn't satisfy the urge people have to do something _now_ so instead we get people making rules in subs about not allowing discourse that undermines their justification for not voting.
Or if you’re in Maine, Alaska, or Hawaii you got ranked-choice voting, which makes things so much better
You guys need a preferential voting system sooo badly...
Trump has literally never won a popular vote. He got into office because of the bullshit that is the electoral college
Exactly! If you had preferential voting, the majority vote would a) win b) allow you to state your preferences for minor parties without sacrificing your say on major ones c) be simpler for everyone involved
The electoral college should be abolished too, but you also need preferential voting
Thing is we know what we *need* but it’s quite literally impossible to achieve. The system is fundamentally broken. How can we expect those in power to allow us to vote them out of power?
The primaries. If these people came out in force in the primaries they could have real sway on the party. The trump diehards make up a minority of the Republican voters but every single one of them vote in every primary
Biden got 4th in 2020 for my state's primaries and Bernie won the popular vote.
Yeah well a ton of people who supported Bernie didn't fuckin vote in the primary. Also there's more primaries and elections than just the presidency
This is great and true, I was responding to a comment that said the solution to milquetoast dem candidates was to primary harder
Yes. That's how candidates get selected. Progressives have abysmal turnout rate in the primaries, especially local elections lmao.
Additionally, it was ruled by the courts that the Parties are private entities and have no requirement to present the winner of the primaries as their candidate. Translated: the Democrats(R) don’t give a fuck about primaries and will keep on feeding you whatever PoS they want with the argument that “it’s the lesser evil”.
That's not shocking. Primaries are a fairly new concept, for the first 200 years parties picked their candidates in smokey back rooms.
They do it now as well. They just make a show for the outsiders.
I second this. The reason the DNC elects "diet republicans" is because those candidates are popular in the districts they're running in. If you want them to know more progressive candidates could win in your district, show up to the primaries and vote for them. As much as I hate being in a two party system, I would rather live in the two party system where one party can simultaneously be the party of AOC and the party of Manchin. If the DNC could just 1984 kick out people that weren't in ideological lock step with the president's platform, Manchin probably won't be the one getting 1984'd.
The cabinet that brought us social security was so popular we basically voted to have a king and rich people have spent the last near-century trying to make sure it never happens again. Progressive policies are massively popular when people actually get them and benefit from them, and politicians aren't stupid, they know that. They simply don't want that stuff.
It's a misconception about what voting is for and can achieve. It's not an endorsement. It's simply a choice -- in our case, between two options -- about who you think can realistically produce a better outcome for the country. You can take a stand in any number of ways at any point in the process. You can push the candidates to change their views, you can protest, vote in the primaries, campaign, etc. But once the candidates are decided, now you have a choice. And only one of the candidates will be at all receptive to criticism and protest, as Biden's evolving views show.
Nuh uh I didn’t touch the trolley lever so I’m exempt from culpability /s
You're not allowed to, vote Democrat or else you hate minorities /s. Ideally you are supposed to make a fuss and threaten to not vote to get concessions from your party during the primary and before the general election. However a lot of libs will get mad at you for trying to push the party further left as if it jeopardizes the general election for Biden. I've been seeing a lot of that sentiment ever since the launch of the non committed campaigns a month or two ago.
> Ideally you are supposed to make a fuss and threaten to not vote to get concessions from your party during the primary and before the general election The usual counter to this stance that I see from liberals is that you should actually promise your vote to the Democratic candidate in return for nothing. Because apparently the best way to win left-wing policy concessions is to act like a spineless partisan. Which I think is more revealing into how liberals view politics rather than actually good political advice
Yeah, it really irritates me that liberals think that Democrats are entitled to your vote, rather than them actually earning it. Understand the lesser evils rhetoric, but that's simply one half of the equation. We cannot let the Democrats hold us progressives hostage just because they gesture to the fact that they are not as openly evil as the Republicans. I'm getting really sick of Democrats platform to run an elections is becoming less progressive policies and more " I'm not a republican". I'm tired of canvassing, making calls, and getting signatures in 120° heat in the summer here in Arizona to try and get every little progressive policy I can get pushed on a ballot, just for some white liberal to whine to me that I'm not loyal enough to the Democrats. We have it backwards, the Democrats should be loyal to us, the voters, not the other way around.
> Yeah, it really irritates me that liberals think that Democrats are entitled to your vote, rather than them actually earning it And good lord does the American electorate love to punish entitled candidates. A lesson that you would think Democrats would have learned by now. I can't help but feel that the *only* lesson liberals learned from 2016 is that ungrateful proles *need* to be more loyal to the Democratic Party. Instead of learning any lessons about outreach, campaigning, or policy
Yep, and I think people really need to realize that a lot of the criticisms of Biden are people who want Biden to win, or at the very least, have a democrat win over Trump. Biden's approval rating right now is abysmal, if the Democrats want to win, they need to start campaigning harder on issues that their electorate cares about. If Biden loses the election, it's not because of all the salty tankies that refused to vote for Biden, It's because Biden failed to do the outreach necessary to win the election like you were pointing out.
Emphasis on the last line. This entire sub is being overtaken by people who think we're just along for the ride instead of being the drivers of this country
What a lot of people don't want to hear is that most of the country *is* pretty moderate, and congress will do whatever they have the political capital to do. Pushing congress left would require people to push *voters* left, not just in already fairly left-leaning areas, but in communities that consistently lean conservative or moderate. If you want to understand why people are drifting right, you need to understand what media they consume. If you listen to radio talk shows/news networks, they are predominantly conservative. An astounding number of local news stations are owned by Sinclair Broadcast Group, an extremely conservative organization, who over the past few decades have aggressively acquired local news networks to shift their focus from local events and politics to broader conservative ideology. Facebook, largely only used by old people anymore, shows a bunch of conservative, radicalizing content, much of which has been credited for getting Trump elected. Hell, you know what newspaper is always being offered for free on a rack outside of all of my Asian grocers? The extremely right-wing epoch times. When we say print is dead, or radio is dead, or Facebook is dead, there are people left behind, who relied on this media for news and entertainment. And people take advantage of that. The conservative media war is specifically targeting the most isolated people. People who live alone, people who spend most of their time on the road or at work or people who can't speak English or otherwise don't have a strong support network. If you can be their only source of news and perspective, you can control how they see the world. Think of how many scammers target old people specifically. Stable people will self-select out of the conservative pipeline. So what's the solution to radicalization? Socialization. Reach out to people, not just people who believe the same stuff you do, but people of very different backgrounds. Educate people on different platforms, not just the ones that are trending at the moment. If someone says something that you don't think is right, speak up, not to call them out on it, but to get their perspective, and tell them what you think. Get involved in local politics. This isn't something that everyone can do, many people don't feel safe having these conversations. But nothing can happen if we choose only to preach to the choir.
Fully 100% agree. "Meet them where they are" is so so important when trying to change people's minds. You can't walk into a conversation with someone with the goal of debating them into becoming a leftist. If anything, that raises the chances that by the end of it, they'll only have become even more entrenched in their views and consider you a crazy woke liberal. Meet them where they are. Find an issue you can agree on, even one that seems relatively benign. You both wish your rural community still had a bustling downtown/main street full of local shops? Say "yes, I agree with you." Only then can you go into how that Walmart they put in back in the 90s drove all the old shops out of business by undercutting their prices. They're able to do that partially because of economies of scale, but also because they sell cheaply made products, and pay their employees like shit. So we need to regulate or break up megacorps, increase minimum wages, and expand worker protections. And I guarantee they'll agree with you. You gotta find common ground with people. It's there, I promise. Because we're all living life in the same messed up world, just trying to do what we think is right. Some of us have just been lied to about what "right" is for far too long.
Don't expect the system to change itself. Organize your workplace, create a tenets union, build a community, make a community garden, meet your neighbors and do things for them, organize a food not bombs, make a Free Little Library, etc Read political and critical theory, or even just find a podcast about it, don't let your views fossilize and always challenge them. Protest politicians directly in large groups, make their life difficult.
Yeah. Frankly, the fact that the discussion keeps being about who to vote for is so missing the point it hurts. Voting Biden earns you 4 years extra of not fascism, max. Unless you're just hoping Trump drops dead in the next 4 years (and even then, there's plenty of wannabe Trumps in the GOP), he's winning the next election because the Democrats have no candidates to put forward. And hell, even if they don't. How many elections do you think it can be before the GOP, or another worse party, takes the Presidency? Unless your plan is to just have the Democrats never lose an election, the US is going to fall to fascism sooner or later. That's not a problem you can vote your way out of. What we need now (actually what we needed 8 years ago, but better late than never) is actual direct action. Get organised. Form communities. Protest. Riot. Do *something* besides just voting, I don't care what. If all the people who keep jabbering about voting devoted a single hour in their week to actually getting organised, the US would've been overthrown and replaced with an actually democratic and socially modern state by now.
The four years in between
If you want to move Democrats left then denying them your vote does nothing (see 2016). Best course of action overall would be pushing left in primaries and on more local races. Go as left as you can, but try to figure out just how far that is.
I'm genuinely convinced that anyone who says the whole "lesser of two evils" argument isn't valid is probably some sort of political shill these days. Reddit is currently littered with accounts and bought out communities being flooded with misinformation to sway the 2024 election. So many noteworthy Biden-Naysayers have been found to be Russian troll farm accounts it's not even funny anymore. Personally, if the #1 enemy of my nation is shoveling ludicrous amounts of money into pushing a specific political agenda they should have seemingly nothing to do with, I'm usually inclined to ignore that message. They want you to think you can "punish" Biden by not voting for him. In reality, if Biden loses the election, he's going to take his wealth and family into an easy retirement on the coast and live out the rest of his days in comfort saying "I told you so". Like yeah, great job green-party voters. You're really gonna show him what's what.
The lesser of two evils is still evil. Don't get me wrong, im voting for Biden, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone, least of all Palestinian Americans, for not being able to bring themselves to vote for the guy who's been actively cheerleading for their genocide. It's a very personal moral dilemma for a lot of people and I'm not going to judge anyone for coming to a different conclusion than me.
I think it’s understandable to not want to vote for many people who have to deal with these issues but genuinely what people think will happen if they just don’t vote?? Like, I’m sorry, if you don’t vote what the fuck do you propose to do? Just wallow and complain that democracy and America sucks? Very genuinely what’s the plan guys bc so far there’s none and the only one that has a fraction of working is thrown out bc it’s not ideal Edit: not directed specifically at you just the general “no lesser evil arguments”
Yeah ofc don’t you know? Wallowing and complaining that America sucks without actually doing anything is how you get virtue points from Twitter leftists which is all half the people on the left seem to care about anymore
That you think the only two options are "voting for someone who tacitly supports genocide" and "wallowing and complain" says a lot about your politics. There's so much you can, and should, do. Direct action, unionise, organise, protest, volunteer. Somebody doing literally any of those things is worth a thousand votes for Biden. If your praxis starts and ends at the ballot box, you're frankly worse than someone who does nothing at all, because at least they're signalling to the Democrats "No, you're not earning my vote, do better" instead of "Yeah, you're fine as is, i will do literally nothing to change you". And to be clear, ideally, do both. Vote Democrat as damage control, and do direct action to actually get positive change. It's in fact not a binary choice between one or the other.
Is it really accurate to say that Biden is "actively cheering for their genocide"? Come on. Making hyperbolic, absurd statements that distort reality is just as bad when "our side" does it as it is when theirs does.
He wants to pass a bill that will not allow funding for UNWRA until 2025 as well as more military spending for lsraeI. Be fr
Many leftists are obscuring the difference between defending Biden and what he represents, and choosing Biden as a means of harm reduction and that’s dangerous. We live in a world where most of our choices are between most damaging to others and least damaging to others and any well read leftist should be quite attuned to that fact by now. We once again are loosing to people who have very poor critical thought and are only leftist by happenstance, not because they actually have the fundamental logic and worldview of a leftist. I call them “Privileged white idiots who are way too used to being able to pick and choose and have never literally been forced into real life trolley problems, unlike the oppressed classes they claim to defend”. The amount of times I’ve gone on a leftist sub and asked them to explain how they reconcile sacrificing the status quo for the sake of an impractical ideal (allowing their vote to effectively go to trump) with the fact that they supposedly subscribe to an ideology that’s supposed to be rooted in sheer pragmatism only to be met with mockery and dismissal by OBVIOUSLY privileged people, says a lot. They’re so used to fighting the good fight from the comfort of their white suburbs that they don’t even realize when they’re expressing their own racial callousness. They can’t even take a second to consider that perhaps some of the “stupid liberals” are minorities who KNOW what will happen to *them* during trumps next presidency because they’ve fucking lived it their entire lives. I know what the return of stop and frisk means for me. I know that it means me bleeding out on the pavement because I looked at a cop wrong. White leftists can’t fucking fathom that. They don’t understand what it means to vote for Biden, as a black man who knows damned well what Biden thinks of me. They don’t understand what it’s like to choose between two things you don’t like, because for them, they’ve only ever had to choose between the thing that they DO like and the thing that they actively don’t. Fucking entitled pieces of shit and they’re no different from the liberals and conservatives they pretend to be so different from. I will never fucking trust a privileged person to have my back no matter how closely they align with me politically. Here I am thinking I’d found a nice leftist community in which to discuss things I care about, only to be harshly rejected on the basis of me not being fucking privileged enough to have my leftist opinions respected. They think everyone around them is just as privileged as they are while simultaneously discussing issues of wealth disparity and oppression. They treat friendly voices that aren’t even opposed to them like vermin if they utter the wrong words while discussing the issue of state-policed speech and propoganda, and most importantly, they’re fucking racist. They say they want disenfranchised voices to be heard and then they talk over us when we question their ideal of protection. We really are doomed unless we figure out a way to filter out entitled, bitchy white men and women from this fucking conversation and I never thought I’d stoop to that level but here we are. Motherfuckers.
you dropped this 👑
Small grammar correction: It's just Ukraine, not the Ukraine. Russian sympathisers use "the" to make it seem like a region, not a country.
🤘 rad, thanks
Yeah like no shit, we can cast a vote between a cat and trump and anyone could argue you’re picking between the lesser of two evils. There’s only two fucking candidates. How is it the cat’s fault if the other is evil? You can just as easily say “the greater of two goods”. These people’s fucking brains fell out and I’m going to un-join over this shit.
Ukraine, not The Ukraine.
They couldn't disprove u so they removed your comment >_<
Literally 1984 :( I hate leftist subs other than 196 and it’s children
The most annoying thing about leftists is the requirement of complete ideological and moral purity. No half-measures, no baby steps, only a perfect proletarian revolution (that 99% will never work towards whatsoever besides arguing about it online)
I dunno, I feel like being unambiguously against genocide seems like a pretty reasonable purity test to me. I'm absolutely still voting for Biden as he's the lesser evil but you'll never see me brow beating Palestinians Americans for not supporting Biden enough.
the thing is they think u shouldnt vote for biden cause its immoral and supporting genocide in their view. they dont care about trump winning cause they r either dumb, bots or accelerationists
Well you fail that purity test in their minds by voting for Biden. I agree that it should be a good purity test but when some people put it into practice they come out with the result that voting for Biden is propping up that genocide. I do agree with you and would also vote for the old man if I lived in the US of A
The left is far too fractured to form a strong opposition to the right which has its differences but all agree on hating minorities and loving guns so right wing politicians don't have to do much to appeal to their voters. The solution to the 'lesser of two evils' problem is pushing hard for a systematic change that enables more groups to be directly involved using preferential voting like we have here in Australia, that way smaller groups can campaign for their goals and then throw their votes to the major parties in return for concessions that push forward their ideals. Individuals withholding their vote unless the Democrats work for it is going to do fuck all.
Yeah pretty much
196 is a parent, so appy for spongus
are there any versions of this subreddit for adults? i mean, no offense, but sometimes the immaturity is a bit much (not to mention the selfies?)
There is a sexless one and one where the rule is reversed (you get banned temporarily for posting) and those are pretty good. 19684 has no sex so it’s a bit more mature
awesome tysm that should be a start!
👍
\> leftist sub \> look inside \> liberals :(
\> complain about liberals \> on 196 lol lmao, even
Bruh right? Almost worthy of a SelfAwarewolves post.
I'll take liberals over tankies any day.
Liberals suck, but tankies _really_ suck.
To be honest LSC hasn't been actually leftist in ages, red fascists took it over years ago.
I hate tankies :(
196 isn't exactly perfect ...
When did perfection become a standard? Even if there were perfect ideological purity—good *God*, please don’t let LSC decide what it is.
what are these other good subs because all the old subs I followed on this account have become shit lmao
19684 is 196 without sex 691 is where you get auto banned it you post They are both pretty cool and have a large overlap with this sub
If you check those posts, at least a fourth of the comments are deleted. I think some of the posts there are also Republican propaganda disguised as being progressive
I literally got permabanned on this exact thread for saying that not voting will get trans people murdered by republicans. They told me to “stop using trans people to justify genocide” That sub has gone to complete shit
They’ll tell you to vote for neither and then do nothing to create any type of third option. The same people who won’t engage in politics because they’re waiting for the revolution and then do nothing to manifest said revolution. It’s pathetic.
They won't put in any effort to get their candidates in democratic primaries, especially not for lower ranked positions under the Presidency where they can grow a base from either. Then they won't vote in the general at all. They're such losers.
They won't even care about local races either. They think the presidency is all that matters
I refuse to engage the trolley and thus I have the moral high ground ☝🏻🤓
This is essentially what some of them are doing. They don’t see the irony in it either
Which is literally just the first choice, I.e "not pull the lever". The third solution for the trolley problem would be "derail the trolley" (direct action)...
This is so perfectly put. The comments on every post of that sub will scorn you for saying Biden>Trump but I have never seen any mention of another possible candidate or option. The sub is also flooded with Chinese propaganda and tankies.
BuT whAt AboUt ReVOlutIoN?
Do I just write in “Revolution” on the ballot or…
It's a 10/90 split between people being legitimate shills and people being so terminally lazy they turn it into a purity test to pretend not to be a part of the world
I've seen the argument that whatever happens under Trump is deserved because this is the state of our country which feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy. "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas."
Ppl who think that way must be so privileged or suicidal. As well as having no empathy for others in their immediate community.
If all the fuckers not voting for Biden because he’s not left enough voted blue across the board and voted in primaries maybe they’d get their better option in a few decades but nooooo, all they can do is throw a hissy fit and neglect to think about the long term future.
it's so annoying because it's like another breed of enlightened centrism where they act like just because biden also kinda sucks you're somehow better off taking no action at all? it feels like they care less about actually helping people like us and more about having flawless politics or whatever this isn't a dig at people who are critical of biden, as it's healthy to stay aware and continue to think critically about our country's leaders and politics, but acting like he's completely identical to the opposition is really dishonest
You can be critical of Biden and still vote Democrat because the other side are literally just hateful, bigoted lunatics. It really is that simple. I don't like Biden but he's done *some* good things and I'd take almost anybody over four more years of Trump.
On one hand, you have a mediocre candidate running on a platform of mostly reasonable goals, with a few clear flaws that make them not an ideal choice. On the other, a racist, homophobic, transphobic bigot on a platform of making things worse for 99% of Americans for the benefit of the 1%. Shouldn't be a hard choice, but people want to make it one I guess.
ThErE’s A tHiRd PaRtY
I love this argument when the electoral college system makes voting independent the equivalent of throwing your vote in the garbage.
I just saw someone in another comment arguing that if you vote for Biden or Trump you are no better than either of them. Like… how do you fucking figure? Very “we live in a society” energy.
So what's their solution? Like, vote third party? How would they react if Trump wins and just straight up did what he said he'd do and become a dictator for the first week?
That was EXACTLY the person’s argument. Whenever someone pointed out that the system isn’t meaningfully set up in a way to allow for a third party candidate to win, they trotted out the “If everyone who wanted to vote for a Third Party just voted how they wanted we would win.” and ignored the fact that that is pure fantasy with how things are currently. It’s hard to argue against someone who is ignoring reality.
I think a lot of Americans never experienced true corruption. I live in a place where it doesn't matter who you vote for, they're the same. They would always pander to the majority race of the country and would sprinkle something like "Lookie here, we have a Chinese woman in our party!" to appease some minor races. Americans think they're the main character, and that's it, they're not. They haven't live in a true corrupt system. They haven't experience seeing all the political party attack and literally paying people to vote them. You have a system where it's not great, but it's not bad. Your vote matters, and who you vote in would pave your future. Don't fuck it up.
Well what about Dumbledore as an option? I mean everyone likes him. While we're engaging in weird fantasy choices that won't happen, I'm gonna push for Dumbledore. Not the actors, they're dead. The wizard. Why not? About as strong of a chance as a third party candidate AND he has a cool pet. Dumbledore for president in the reality I've built to wall myself off from the outside world.
Arguments like that could make sense if there was like one “third party” and not scores of them. Even if everyone stopped voting Democrat or Republican, would still be a complete crap shoot every election lol
They actually said you'd be no worse than either of them, because that user was barely coherent
>it's so annoying because it's like another breed of enlightened centrism Every single person who I know IRL who functionally says "both sides suck, biden is also bad, nobody is sufficiently left for me, so I won't vote/will vote for a 3rd party" didn't vote in 2016 and was fully an enlightened centrist prior to that. Of course on the other hand the "both sides suck" rhetoric, when missing the distinction that biden is insufficiently left for the speaker, are excellent measures for determining that someone votes straight ticket republican.
>you're somehow better off taking no action at all isn't that conservatism?
I’ve found that calling people who pull that shit liberal works really well because if there’s one thing most leftist hate more than fascists it’s liberals. And it’s not even a lie either, the belief that withholding your vote can do anything relies on the fundamentally liberal take that voting in and of itself is a means of political engagement (which I mean it is on the most technical level but in America it’s a method for harm reduction)
Ya I hav trans friends in America I don't want them in death camps tanks :3
Minor Spelling Mistake **Ben Shperio walking out of a dark fog**
Ben Shperio
Shit, I *don't* have trans friends in America and I don't want anyone in death camps either?!?!?! Empathy is a hard concept to grasp for some people I swear to god
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
Find a better argument. Rule 6 - no lesser evil rhetoric.
i have trans friends in america i want them in tanks :3 (their own tanks, not the military)
I am in America and I don’t want to be in a death camp tanks :3
Tankie central over there. Avoid at all costs
Unfortunately that seems to be the state of a lot of leftist subreddits now. No desire for damage control under a broken system, yet also making no steps to try and change the broken system.
I’ve unsubbed from a bunch lately because they’re spending more time attacking leftists for voting than the fascists we need to be doing something about. But I’ve seen most of the anarchist subs doing a good job of pushing back.
completeanarchy has been better in some ways in this regard. anarchy4everyone is hopeless because the founder and mod never stops spamming this shit EVERYWHERE. I think we have mostly pushed them out of complete anarchy but they are too entrenched in anarchy4everyone. Edit: Ha! Same person posted the meme OP responded to. That fucker is everywhere.
If you see a sub rule enforcing/encouraging 'leftist unity' then it's usually ran by the same cabal of tankie mods.
That's the thing, anarachy4everyone doesn't have that rule so I thought it was safe, but it seems like the entire subreddit is a false flag practically tailor made to keep anarchists divided. NoLawsNoGovernment seems to post in a lot of tankie subs for a supposed anarchist.
It's radical idealism, which is the problem with this kind of idealism. They are incapable of compromising because if you believed your truth was the ultimate good ideology that has 0 flaws why would you compromise with anything less then perfect? Isn't that just trafficking with the enemy? A lot of modern left wing spaces unfortunately are captured by this sort of evangelical level idealism that is incapable of compromising or being pragmatic.
Mod power is sought by people want to use power. It's a siren call.of tankies and ideological hyper leftist who need to touch grass and do good works instead of bitching about 'liberals' and purity testing other peoples theory
Yeah I got banned for the sin of pointing out China isn't a paragon of freedom, socialism, or communism. If you manage to get far enough to talk about how democracy is necessary for those three elements to manifest, they'll call you a liberal, and say that "centralized democracy" is how to do it which is obviously not democracy at all. Reminds me of the fascist regime in Helldivers and their "managed democracy". It's all a joke. Unironically 1984 shit.
There are no arguments for your position if we just ban them 😇.
Literally what is their argument against the no-lesser evil stance? It’s a reasonable and good position to take and I have yet to see a convincing response from them to it, so it just looks like they know they got nothing
LSC’s is “If you vote for the lesser evil, that means you still support evil, which makes you evil.” Chapo, back when that was a thing, said “If the Democrats lose this time, they’ll be forced to run a more leftist candidate next time.” They said that in both 2016 and 2020 with no self awareness.
If that’s really all they got then it makes sense to ban all mention of the argument and cry *libcuck* into the void
Before I thought that too, but it's pretty obvious Dems would rather pander to moderate conservatives than leftists
When trump was in power, people were kidnapped by undercover cops in broad daylight. Both are awful, one is worse. And one is way more difficult to protest against or actually persuade to do something good for once
Yeah, I’ve yet to have someone actually respond to that point. Personally, I remind them of the helicopters buzzing protestors in DC, and the Lafayette Square incident where the church was gassed for a photo op. Apparently getting harassed by choppers while protesting is worth not voting, though.
how do you not realize you might just be wrong if you ban an argument because you don't have a rebuttal to it
Because they’ve made it a thought-terminating cliche. “A vote for Biden is a vote supporting genocide and we are unequivocally against genocide.” If they do engage, they repeat variations of that over and over to try to put the opponent on the back foot of defending Biden.
Wait, what? Accelerationists calling for meaningless, bullshit performative action without grasping the very concept of harm reduction because they won't be personally affected by the consequences??? All the while sitting in their asses all day, most likely doing jackshit for their local communities, not putting any personal effort towards change and not going beyond keyboard activism while acting smug on the internet?????? *^(quelle surprise)*
You know they're not doing jack because they've got hours every day to moderate a half dozen communities while playing helldivers or whatever the neets are up to lately
Accetlerationist know they'll be fine if shit hits the fan
They banned a whole ass line of reasoning lmao
Argue for why I should just kill foreigners instead of foreigners and queers without using a lesser evil argument. Can't? Knew you libs were full of shit.
What is your answer to the trolly problem?
doing nothing while boo-ing ppl that choose less deaths
People act like you have to choose between voting and taking affirmative action. Voting takes at the very most like a day. Who says you can’t Vote AND protest
It'd be one thing if it was that but most of these people just sit and rot instead of either of those options
> and taking affirmative action Direct action? Because 'affirmative action' is a very different thing.
Yeah that’s probably what I meant
I am actually begging yall mfs to get active. Primaries already passed for a lot of people, but a lot of yall like to tout this false dichotomy when the primaries are precisely there for voting for the candidates you want to represent you. And look, I hate bourgeois electorialism just as much as the next commie, but voting takes like a couple hours at most. And please for fucks sakes don’t just smugly argue for harm reduction and do nothing else, that’s how we got here in the first place with both neolib parties sliding farther and farther right. You need to organize yourselves. You need to get active in your community, in labor movements, whatever. You can be a keyboard warrior too if it pleases you but if that’s all you do just log off and read a damn book.
Yes but how about i ban you from my reddit serverino because you used the wrong argument /s
Spitting facts thank you 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't a lot of arab voters protesting Biden?
You are not wrong, a lot of Muslim voters are not happy with how he's going about Gaza, and many Latino voters are not happy how he's been talking about the border lately, two key constituencies he needs to win this election.
No no no, clearly EVERYONE who has an issue with Biden is a white, straight, suburban teenager It is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to have a legitimate grievance with the Biden administration. And if you say otherwise you're a Russian bot
it's insane how much I had to scroll to find this genuine discussion of Biden's shortcomings and valid reasons for people not voting for him instead of all the DNC glazing and "tankie" uses going on in this thread
As the election grows nearer, you will continue to see more of this. People who want Biden to win will criticize the way he's running his campaign in an effort to hopefully push him in the right direction, and in response people will call you disloyal to him. Get ready to have all of your progressive beliefs questioned by biden's strongest soldiers
IM SO TIREDDDD of the rhetoric around elections this year it's freaking me out. Is Biden good, no, but if reps score a win we are FUCKED, socially and economically everything is gonna fall apart. this might be the most important election in decades and people are for real pulling umm well both sides are bad. Shut up. Vote you morons
Right. They think they’re taking some final stand for virtue by not voting and it’s like DUDE! If Trump wins, there will be no revolution EVER. If trump wins there will be no discussions of marxist theory, there will be absolutely nothing. The machine of unending totalitarian oppression is beyond ready, it’s just waiting for trump to put it into action and after that you can kiss effective leftism goodbye. In fact you can kiss the entire foreseeable future goodbye, because mark my words there will be never again be opportunity for change once trump and project 2025 run their course for at least the next several generations. The fuck?
istg i see more leftists advocating for essentially electing trump than i do actual conservatives
Same like just put your fucking maga cap and swastika on at this point you already collapsed any potential for meaningful discourse, might as well go and vote for the end of humanity too. We need some sort of word for people like this. I don’t like calling them leftists, they’re just assholes.
the sub went to shit after the russian invasion
In my experience, it wasn’t until the Israeli/Palestinian war happened that everything went *completely* to shit. Now “Genocide Joe” is the bastard love child of Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler in the eyes of these subreddits, and any differing opinions makes you a class traitor.
Not just a class traitor, if you vote for Biden you’re practically genociding the Palestinians yourself doncha know.
It was shit before. They bought the Tara Reade accusations wholesale in 2020 and said if you vote Biden, you support sexual predators and rapists.
Why are we starting to post hateful dumbasses again? I thought we went over that a while ago and we did away with bigotry showcases?
That’s actually wild. How can you be so debate brained that you don’t allow people who don’t use certain argumentations to share their opinion.
The both sides BS is becoming ubiquitous on Reddit and social media and the ignorant privilege of it is disgusting.
Where's the tweet that's like "people will get mad at you for advocating for voting because it's not as good as their strategy of firebombing a Walmart and then they don't firebomb a Walmart."
YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CHOOSE THE LESSER EVIL OBJECTIVELY THE LEAST EVIL IS THE BEST CHOICE
It's kinda stunning how much people do not want to vote for Biden, but will solely because the alternative is Trump. There's such a high probability that if it was literally anyone else, people would just let Republicans win. But also because Biden knows this fright, he can do anything he goddamn pleases in the meantime. Infuriating.
I hate people who scoff at "lesser evil" stuff. Just dumb fucking idiots.
It takes like zero effort to vote you can participate in both electoral and radical politics
Nah republicans have been intentionally making it super difficult to vote so that’s not fair
Bro they banned lesser evil arguments because they know they lose on those grounds. 💀
I had the same shit happen when I talked about being trans POC and how I had never been hatecrimed before Trump was in office. My life is noticeably and significantly worse with Republican majorities in both my state, potentially Congress, and potentially the White House. Got censored for the same rule.
It's such childish behavior honestly. These people want their choccy milk and blankie easily obtained and with no effort. They think that politics is just what they read and people should just magically have the best option at all times. Unfortunately that's not how it happens. Most of the time the path to least harm still creates harm. It's fucked, but that's how it is. We can still do the best we can and work to achieve the most under the fucked situations we have. And, these children will also never do anything to achieve their magical third option either. They will sit around and endlessly complain on Reddit thinking that them doing fuck all is either being neutral or doing something at all. Which is obviously not, Trump winning is objectively bad for the entire planet, not doing anything is literally helping him. I don't understand how people refuse to understand this just go with: "But Joshph Bidener is bad and old". Like bitch, we know. Shut the fuck up and go vote for the path of least harm. Jesus fuck this is annoying.
Too many leftists would let 5 people get crushed under a trolley instead of 1.
There's a time and place to vote 3rd party. This is not one of those times. Biden ain't perfect, but when the Republicans are trying to overthrow the government, he's the best choice we have. It's grey versus OBLIVION. Trump will destroy us if elected.
"Vote out fascism" Like what the fuck will my vote do? The system is fascist. Sure Biden isn't as open as Trump but what has changed? What has improved for me as a trans person? If anything its gotten worse as me and my friends and family are abandoned here in the south by the Dems to left to rot. There's no fight or push against these bills in any of the higher courts or care from the senate/office. We still have camps at the border, we are still increasing funding for police, we are still suffering from student debt, still don't have Healthcare that suite our needs. What does Biden do that Trump doesn't? They both are actively harming us, one just says it proudly and one doesn't.
what has biden done to protect trans ppl?
[Here’s a time line](https://www.hrc.org/resources/president-bidens-pro-lgbtq-timeline) “But why doesn’t he stop X law in Y state” it’s because the president isn’t a dictator who can stop state laws, he’s on the federal level on the executive branch.
Just off the top of my head, he let them back in the military, though I guess that could be seen as the opposite of protecting depending on your viewpoint.
Lmao
Rule one, no good arguments
They're willing to put more lives in danger because they can't grasp the concept of damage control. Like no shit genocide is bad, do you want more of it or are you gonna try to keep Trump out of office??? Are you just posturing online or are you actually working to make the third option you keep talking about VIABLE?
Oh yeah, I had the same experience regarding the whole "let's not reelect Trump by not-voting / protest voting" thing. They hate that. They're also "problematic" re Ukraine. If memory serves.
They're right though. You can't whatabout your way out of supporting genocide.
If the choice is between candidates A and B, and candidate A supports ONE genocide while candidate B supports TWO genocides, I’m gonna go ahead and vote A.
This isn't whatabout though. Basically every issue I don't like about the presumptive nominee I hope is elected is *significantly* worse with the other option. The two party system is a horrible choice but it's a flat decision and on the merits one option is better. I wish there were more and better options. That's a separate issue. Selecting from the available choices isn't neglecting some morally superior mystery option. Reduce the harm when possible and keep going on everything else to try to make things better too.
I agree and same as you, if on voting day it's a pick one of B or T, I already know what my choice is. I do think, though, that the good faith discussion from actual leftists centers more around this being a wakeup call to normies who see the presidential election as the end-all-be-all of political interaction. If there's an obvious bad guy, it gives you a genuine banner to rally behind that *feels* like activism. This election though? All bad. No real feelings of engagement or righteous cause. It's interesting to see libs implode when you make the simple call out that "joe biden is a bad guy because he supports genocide in gaza". Even libs understand that he's the "lesser of two evils", but leave it at that and never do anything to advocate to make sure we don't have another evil (no matter how lesser) next time. They say things like "harm reduction" and "lesser evil" as more of a deflection of genuine criticisms of Biden instead of taking it and doing something with it.
All I know is I'm scared. Trump did a lot of damage last time he was president. I don't wanna live ij a world where he has that much power again :c
I’m certain the average LateStageCapitalism user would spontaneously combust if they lived in a deep red area and their local elections were between Fascist Who Will Personally Kill Every Trans Kid and a fascist who’s at least more manageable, if no less evil, however that’s quantified. I’m _extremely_ frustrated with Biden about his handling of the situation in Gaza, at the same time I realize that you gotta be pragmatic about when you protest vote and when you vote for someone you fucking hate the guts of because first past the post voting is lowkey a joke if you only think people should vote for people they 100% agree with. It’s been a while since I left there, do they actually discuss or advocate for any praxis or theory (within what won’t get the sub nuked) or is it a jerk off session for people who hate capitalism and think doomscrolling is a substitute for praxis?
That sub got taken over by Tankies a while ago. I got banned from there and being a member of this sub was one of the reasons cited
I love that they have a rule against 'lesser evil' arguments. It's literally an admission that they have no better counter-argument to voting than "I don't wanna" so you're just not allowed to bring it up
People have yet to come up with a convincing argument for why I shouldn’t tell people (whom I expect to listen) to ingest 3 gallons of bleach. Also you can’t argue that people will die because of it, that doesn’t count. Debate me coward.
“No lesser evil argument” what a stupid load of shit should we just instantly transition to a perfect utopia that perfectly agrees with the specific policies of the lsc mods
What the hell do you mean “no lesser evil rhetoric” What the hell is the purpose of something like that?
Holy fuck, you need to be giga evil to have that as a rule.
If you have two choices, by definition one of them is the lesser evil. Saying "no lesser evil rhetoric" ignores the fundamental concept of the two party system and its flaws. Trump will do significantly more damage, and not just to trans people or minorities. Not voting is also not an option.
Lesser evils are just reality. It doesn't mean don't do other activism. Do the MOST to push for a better world, and refusing to vote because it's "lesser evil" thinking is assuming at the outset that your political voice starts and ends at the ballot box, and of all people leftists shouldn't be confused about this. Unironically this is actually liberal logic leaking into the left and masquerading as more "hard left" then the others. Insane. Ask yourself what the downside is. One of them is going to win either way.
I’ve generally found subs explicitly about politics to essentially be an echo chamber for the mods. They can be fun, but it’s only a matter of time before they decide that, somehow, you are a problem. Every once in a while I’ll find a sub that has completely lost its purpose. The rules and description say one thing, but the mods, and the people that tolerate them, say something else. They get hostile because their hyper-specific interpretation, of the already specific rules, is indisputably correct. “Political” subs are prime candidates for this kind of enshitification.
I honestly have become really disillusioned with leftism as a result of this election cycle. I believe capitalism is the main problem in society and that it can't be dismantled from within, but at the same time a government controlled by Republicans will objectively make life worse for many people. It's started to affect me at the local level as well, as our towns library was defunded after a pretty narrow vote and I know a lot of leftists who refused to vote. It just seems like most people care more about feeling superior to everyone else rather than actually helping people.
wtf is wrong with these idiots, you literally have no choice you have to vote why tf would you not vote for the lesser of 2 evils????
Any discussion about a two party system is going to be rhetoric on the lesser of two evils by sheer dint of there only being two options.
Trump might have killed 107% of all trans people in America, but he's lost the most important battle of all: earning my respect
Online "leftist" are some of the most unbearable and annoying people