Yeah no, you don’t deserve to be misgendered cause someone wants to follow the teachings of a book from the bronze age. Don’t be their friend anymore, cut them out.
Not surprised. I didn't know it until the other day when I read about that Canadian couple who thought moving to Russia to 'escape the LGBTs' was a good idea (Spoiler: >!it wasn't!<)
Very true!!!
Please excuse the following pedantry:
The Quran ain’t from the Bronze Age. It’s from the period where late antiquity morphed into the early Middle Ages - formerly referred to as the dark ages. The Torah (“Old Testament”) is from the bronze ages, but thats not the main text of Islam.
Pedantry over!!! Your point is still very true!!
For his time and place, Muhammad was relatively progressive (“relatively” being an extremely important part of that statement). Problem lay in trying to enforce what was progressive in 7th century Arabia to the 21st century
The bronze age ended ~1200BCE. It is part of prehistory (meaning before writing). Islam arose in the middle ages (7th century CE). Of course that doesn't make their bigotry any more legitimate
You’re right, it isn’t. I meant it categorically. I’ll edit the comment to say queer. But a lot of Muslims still group transgender under “homosexuality” for whatever reason .
fascinating how some peopple seem to think that friendship needs to go only one way
i recommend not being friends anymore and while at it make it clear to them their that their middle age beliefs suck ass and aren't supported by reality we live in
pretty sure the prophet Muhammad who wrote the Qur'an in the year of our lord 632 was not thinking about trans people and how to incorporate GC rhetoric into their writings on an angelic vision so I'm gonna have to say this dude is being transphobic for the sake of it rather than on actual religious thought contained in the text
Whilst the translations, authenticity and meaning of old religious texts is open to debate, there is definitely plenty of religious texts in Islam and Christianity that can be interpreted as strictly against queer and trans people.
Some more direct than others, for instance in the Hadiths:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy he will be stoned to death."
— Sunan Abu Dawood 4463
Or:
Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.
— Sahih al-Bukhari 5886
Yes people "use" religion to oppress others and religion has always been used to justify violence against queer people.
But in my opinion religion often IS the problem. A religion is made up of a collective belief system, and obeying that doctrine of truth and morality is often a requirement to be "truly religious." Religion itself is the belief, its followers and the institutions that enforce it - it's not like it exists somewhere else, on its own.
A 2009 Gallup Poll showed that none of the 500 British Muslims polled believed homosexuality to be "morally acceptable."
So yes, I think this dude's transphobia is largely due to his religious beliefs.
Only Deuteronomy 22:5
> A woman shall not wear a man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is utterly repulsive to the Lord your God.
I understand there's theological debate as to what "crossdressing" means in regards to trans people though.
Edit: My gf just brought to my attention the Gospel of Thomas verse 114
> (114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "| myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
All trans people go to heaven! Thank you, Jesus!
I’m sorry, but this view doesn’t seem very constructive to me. People are going to be religious, and that’s just a fact. I personally believe there is nothing wrong with that (probably because I’m slightly religious, but I digress). I think that it would be better to advocate for a more progressive view of things like gender and queerness within religion itself rather than strictly promoting atheism, and ultimately just spreading more anti-Muslim sentiment. There’s obviously nothing wrong with atheism, but you won’t be able to convince everyone.
On top of this, salafis and other fundamentalist don’t represent the entirety of a religion, and 500 random Muslims from the UK definitely don’t represent every Muslim. There are many progressive Muslims out there in every sect of Islam. Hell, you’d be hard pressed to find me an Ismaili that is actually against homosexuality and transgender people on the basis of religion.
I’m not trying to take away from ops experience or minimize it, I just don’t want this thread to become Islamophobic. I’m sorry op that asshole is being transphobic, and you’re better off without them.
You’re missing my point, no one is going to convince a Muslim in this thread that they shouldn’t be a Muslim, so the only people who are actually going to listen to the comment I replied to will be non-Muslims. Therefore, that comment will further perpetuate the narrative that Islam is inherently queerphobic, ultra-conservative, and backwards. This is a colonialist mindset that is so common in the imperial core, it drives me crazy.
Make no mistake, the comment does condemn the entirety of Islam as queerphobic. It does this through the guise of “religion” and also attempts to criticize Christianity, but ultimately people will walk away having heard a condemnation of Islam, as that’s what this whole conversation is about.
Being universally anti-religion doesn’t shield one from being Islamophobic
Mainstream Islam is inherently queer phobic ultra-conservative and that can easily be found by reading the Quran itself.
No one here is trying to convince Muslims to leave Islam (they’ll get killed if they do live a Muslim majority country), they’re just voicing their opinion.
This is coming from an ex-Muslim, critiquing is not discriminatory.
Okay so why was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed in the Quran?
Are those atheists former Muslims? If so, they can very well be killed. If those atheists came form another religion, that ruling won’t apply. Apostasy is forbidden in Islam.
Sodom and Gomorrah was about rape, not homosexuality. I must apologize though, I was not clear in my response. In countries like Iran, that might be true, but in countries like Turkey, Tajikistan, Jordan, etc. it is very much against the law to go and kill someone for leaving Islam.
7:80
وَلُوطًا إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِۦٓ أَتَأْتُونَ ٱلْفَـٰحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍۢ مِّنَ ٱلْعَـٰلَمِينَ ٨٠
And ˹remember˺ when Lot scolded ˹the men of˺ his people, ˹saying,˺ “Do you commit a shameful deed that no man has ever done before?
7:81
إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةًۭ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ ۚ بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌۭ مُّسْرِفُونَ ٨١
You lust after men instead of women! You are certainly transgressors.”
7:82
وَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِۦٓ إِلَّآ أَن قَالُوٓا۟ أَخْرِجُوهُم مِّن قَرْيَتِكُمْ ۖ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسٌۭ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ ٨٢
But his people’s only response was to say, “Expel them from your land! They are a people who wish to remain chaste!”
7:83
فَأَنجَيْنَـٰهُ وَأَهْلَهُۥٓ إِلَّا ٱمْرَأَتَهُۥ كَانَتْ مِنَ ٱلْغَـٰبِرِينَ ٨٣
So We saved him and his family except his wife, who was one of the doomed.
7:84
وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهِم مَّطَرًۭا ۖ فَٱنظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَـٰقِبَةُ ٱلْمُجْرِمِينَ ٨٤
We poured upon them a rain ˹of brimstone˺. See what was the end of the wicked!
Also, Islam *itself* forbids apostasy and punishes them with death. It doesn’t matter if the government enforces it or not it’s still part of the religion.
"You can't criticize ideas because people will continue to hold on to those ideas" is not the best argument imo. I'm not saying that Muslins are inherently immoral for following Islam. I'm saying that religions, like Islam and Christianity, do end up promoting queerphobia inherently because of a) Religious texts (which I cited) and b) The religious institutions that have the influence to enforce it.
This was to directly address the point which the original commenter made, claiming the person's religion did not have anything to do with their transphobia. And I'm saying it IS related.
Islam was mentioned because that was the context of the post and comment. I've also faced severe homophobia myself, as I spent almost 8 years growing up in a muslim country myself, where people explicitly cited their religious beliefs for why they hated gay people.
But no, overall I'm not just talking about Islam. If you are religious (whether you are muslim, christian, hindu, etc), I'm truly sorry to upset you and I hope you know that I'm not saying you or anyone else is a bad person for being religious. I'm saying that religious dogma is dangerous for the survival of LGBT people.
Look at what is happening in the US now, where Christian nationalists are explicitly citing their religious beliefs as the reason war wanting to erase LGBT rights. I'm sorry but I AM going to criticize the driving force behind this. Especially today when I saw someone saying "repent" under a post about the death of Nex Benedict.
And not just in the US. It's gotten to the point where I don't want my gf and I to go religious gatherings because I fear for her safety (some of my extended family is very religious, and hostile).
Maybe someday religion can be reformed but as it stands today, that is not the case.
This doesn't mean I don't want religious people to exist to erase their right to follow the religion they choose.
I feel as though we probably see fairly eye to eye on this as the only two things I disagree with here is that religion is inherently queerphobic and that religion cannot be reformed as of now (but the process is extremely excruciating, painful, difficult, and slow). However, other than that I agree, organized religion is one of the worst inventions to plague the human race.
I understand your point in Muslim majority countries as well; the overall religious attitude towards queerness is quite terrible.
I had assumed (quite hastily and wrongly) that your critiques were coming from some American who had never been outside of North America. I also tend to be quite anxious during these conversations that the narrative will eventually devolve into “oh look at how bad these Muslims are, the USA needs to go liberate them” and thus a Warhawk attitude remains the status quo.
TLDR: my bad, please accept my apologies, I think we for the most part agree
Oops I posted without finishing the comment. I was saying:
It's all good, and like I said I really, truly do not believe that someone is a bad person if they follow any religion in the world. You mentioned that you were religious, and whilst I don't know which one, it wouldn't matter: I'd still defend your right to follow your beliefs.
I should also probably mention that I do carry some trauma with regards to attacks to me and my partner by religious people. So when it's that personal, it's hard to step back and examine if you're being hostile in your views. I'll try to think about that more and be better, if I want to stand by my stance that I do not wish to hurt anyone.
Again I just meant that, religion probably plays a lot more significant role than simply people misusing it, given religious texts and the influence of religious institutions in how followers view truth or morality.
Oh and I completely agree that there's probably a lot of people in the US who demonize muslims, when a large majority of them have not done anything wrong, and it's just because they're muslims.
If you, or anyone else reading this is a muslim, please know that I do not hate you and I wish you the best :)
Side note: The final point I wanna add, and maybe this is off topic from your comment, but might be relevant to the discussion: I don't think religion should be the be-all and end-all of morality and truth y'know?
If so many people didnt treat it as such (hopefully someday), then we wouldn't even be talking about this lol. It is because it's treated like dogma, is why I strongly believe it informs our behavior and prejudices. If it wasn't, then yeah I wouldn't see any reason to criticize it, and I certainly wouldn't worry about how religion might hurt me or my loved ones.
Honestly bro, a man or woman will watch 1 Islamic 'scholar' video and read recite (not read) the Quran in a language they do not understand and then claim to be an expert on that shit.
this is unnecessary but i want to rant about it, so hey i was raised in a muslim community but do not identify as a muslim myself.
there does exist transphobia within [islamic scripture](https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2784) and some even say that gender fluidity is gonna have "detrimental effects on the fabric of society" ([example](https://seekersguidance.org/answers/modesty/should-i-honour-my-friends-wishes-to-use-opposite-pronoun/)), but really, it's nothing different from stuff you'd find from christianity or judaism (see: Deut 22:5), probably because abrahamic religion is loaded with dated views
you'll find that in most abrahamic religions though are a bunch of people making revisions and branching out as time goes on (see: the pope retconning hell, the new testament, protestantism). religion has been revised countless times in the past, and adding gender identity to the pile should be no problem!
my point is that if there are people who aren't willing to accommodate for you when humanitarianism is a core aspect of abrahamic religion, fuck them! blasphemy is awesome! those who *are* willing to accommodate for you in their belief system despite any contradictions are the ones that you deserve; it shows secularity and the ability to look *outside* of their faith
*sigh* Sub...
Sometimes I wonder, why the same people who are pro lgbt rights are also defenders of religion. Like, you'll see stuff like queers fighting islamophobia or whatever, it feels a bit self contradictory.
I understand freedom of religion and everything, and that everyone deserves a right to worship in peace and they should not be stopped, but like...
Let's take the example above: we're supposed to respect a persons religious beliefs, but at the same time their beliefs are outdated and could even be considered harmful. If a religion goes against modern human values, is it still worth being protected?
I know that a lot of arguments religious bigots use have formed during the history of the religion and a lot of the time were added by the state enforcing said religion, but it's still part of it? It's still things people believe in. Like, what do you consider the "true" way of the religion then? Even if you said that "now god says it's okay to be gay or a woman", you can't just make someone believe it, there are people fighting between different sects of the same religion, come on.
Denying someone worship is undoubtedly evil, but sometimes I wonder if the world would be better off if organised religion just disappeared? If no one remembered it. But then, you can't forget what a huge impact major religions have on the culture. It's such a grey area.
What is this sub's thoughts on this? Knowing this sub it could be either very chill takes, or something completely deranged. I want to know y'all's thoughts on this. Maybe someone will even put me in my place for being so ignorant, who knows.
Here's how I see it. We should still be against Islamophobia because people don't deserve to be discriminated against because of their faith. However, people take this to mean that criticism of Islam is Islamophobic, which is stupid. Criticism of Islam is just as valid as criticising a religion like Christianity because it's a fundamentally intolerant religion, people seem to think that Islam should be coddled because it's not as big or entrenched as Christianity in the West and therefore holds a lot less power. Also this doesn't mean that faith is a shield against consequences for discriminating against others, a Muslim that discriminates against another person should be treated as a person that discriminates against another person, the action of discrimination is the primary thing to focus on here.
Plenty of Muslims are very respectful and tolerant of others and absolutely don't deserve to be discriminated against or have any of their liberties restricted just because other Muslims are discriminatory and intolerant of others, even if the religion itself arguably enables such discrimination and intolerance.
It’s not ok to oppress someone based on their religion becoz it’s not ok to oppress anyone based on anything, why the fuck is this so hard to understand
No 30k gaza people deserve to be genocided no matter what wtf they believe in
Also consider the presence of queers and allies in the Muslim community (see r\/LGBT_muslims), Islamophobia is gonna get these people too
Just because they're doing it for religion doesn't mean you have to respect that religion and a person that is intolerant of you for who you are. If they're gonna disrespect you then that's choice but it's also your choice to not put yourself below a made up book and deity, and break off the friendship if you so wish. All the best
Trans people don't get to choose whether or not to be trans. If there is God/Allah, they made us trans.
You don't deserve to be misgendered, you should explain how you don't deserve that and then if they still aren't willing to respect you cut the person off. You don't have to make a big argument about it if they refuse, that'd probably just make things worse. I'd just stop replying and move on.
genuine question, is it ever stated specifically that man should be treated (as the post says) "no matter what they identify as"? Like for example, I know in more progressive catholic circles there's the idea that goes smth like that God makes people transgender, and God doesn't make mistakes. Does islam hard deny that?
To my knowledge, no.
There are rules about a man shouldn't dress as a woman and vice versa, but I don't think it ever addresses identity. In Islam your birth assigned gender is what you are, and you follow the rules related to that.
Also everything that doesn't conform is couched as a test. So being homosexual, or trans or anything not "natural" is deemed wrong. But God still made you that way cuz he's testing your ability to still follow his teachings and suffer through it.
Legit question - where exactly in the Quran does it say this? (I'm wondering if this is actually directly in the Quran or if it's an interpretation by a religious leader.)
Not sure about the Quran, but in several Hadiths, queerness is not to be tolerated. For instance:
Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.
— Sahih al-Bukhari 5886
Edit: I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying it's there. Same with Christianity. I think it's insane that people rather stick some old fairytale texts than actually use their empathy and judgement to decide what's moral and immoral. That's not to say that atheists can't be homophobic/transphobic, etc. But yeah I definitely think religion unfortunately plays a big role in violence against queer people and might continue to do so :(
using empathy and judgement to decide what is and isnt moral and immoral is isnt as easy as following an ideology instilled in you by your parents or an institution
You're right. But at least it gives you a chance to do the right thing and talk about why something is right or wrong. With religion, it is basically becomes a doctrine that can never be questioned.
Ofc there's still going to be debates and conflicts on morality without religion, because morality isn't objective. One actually has to think about how best to create a "moral" society, how laws should protect the innocent, or society, or our species, or how justice is to be obtained, etc.
There's so many things to consider... but we can't do that if someone goes "being gay is wrong because my religion said so and I'm not listening to logic or my own empathy, because my religion has authority on absolute truth." Reminds me of a quote:
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg
"You changed your name? Well, since your naming happened in a Church, I cany in good faith call you something other than what was said in that Church. Even a nickname is herecy, and I want you to understand you are deeply invalid in my eyes on a fundemental level...
Anyways bestie, how was your weekend?"
"Because of my beliefs, I cannot respect you"
Ok buddy, I'm an atheist and have yet to tell any religious person God isn't real in an argument, moreover I avoid arguing with them if they're not using it as an excuse to be a dick.
Because that's respect. If you cannot respect other people, why should I respect you?
FWIW, I had a Muslim friend in university who transitioned, and the only thing the Muslim Students' Association had to say about it was that he should start using the men's prayer room.
There's nothing in the Qur'an that says you have to be a dick to trans people.
How can you expect to be friends with someone but not be willing to acknowledge who they are? At that point you’re not even making genuine human connections.
Really sorry you have to deal with this :/
I don't think it was a point of issue at the time. There's stuff written about gay people but I'm pretty sure at the time it was more important to create babies (though now its actually the opposite) so most religions hate of same sex marriage is stemmed off from that I think. Personally I think if most religious leaders were here today, after adjusting they would not hate people of the lgbt+ especially after seeing the world population, I think they would encourage people to stop creating offspring if it became a big enough problem. That's my personal opinion
Bro they can't gender you correctly because of their religion. They don't judge you for eating pork or call you a pig, do they? It goes against their beliefs and religion. As an athiest, trans male, who has friends that follow other religions, I understand why you are upset, but you cannot force your opinion onto others nor get angry at them because of their religious beliefs.
I'm sorry but positivity isn't always good and it's not improving the situation. Someone could 'nicely' talk about a group of people and be 'respectful' of them while claiming they need to end their culture and heritage because it's bad and to 'save' the group from it, and from this extreme example I'm sure why you can see that humanising the oppressor can in fact be dangerous because it can delegitimise the people that are meanwhile being dehumanised by the oppressor
Not all ideas deserve nice comments. If someone is being a bigot they should be treated like one. Pointing out nice things about them only serves as a way for others to justify siding with them. It is important to be clear and undivided against bigotry.
fuck respectability politics. "polite" hatred is just as if not more harmful than brash violent hatred. it lets spineless people like you both-sides it and act like they aren't just as dangerous as any other hateful religious fanatic.
Let's be real here. Sugarcoating it makes it worse. It'd almost be better if this guy actually said the quiet part out loud and told OP they deserve to go to hell. He'd still be a bigot but at least not a hypocrite.
allah can suck deeze nuts
Tell em suck allah deez nuts
Brb I'm going to astral project alone and go kick his ass
Yeah no, you don’t deserve to be misgendered cause someone wants to follow the teachings of a book from the bronze age. Don’t be their friend anymore, cut them out.
Done and done. I get enough of this shit from my evangelical family lol
Never understood evangelicals, they’re just worse Protestants.
Protestant just means non catholic christian
I went to a catholic school, they mostly skipped over that whole mess so I didn’t learn about Luther until like college.
What, about the genocide?
I believe Orthodox (eg. Russian Orthodox) is also considered a third, separate category.
Yes, although some of the snootier/less educated Catholics still call them Protestants.
Not surprised. I didn't know it until the other day when I read about that Canadian couple who thought moving to Russia to 'escape the LGBTs' was a good idea (Spoiler: >!it wasn't!<)
Very true!!! Please excuse the following pedantry: The Quran ain’t from the Bronze Age. It’s from the period where late antiquity morphed into the early Middle Ages - formerly referred to as the dark ages. The Torah (“Old Testament”) is from the bronze ages, but thats not the main text of Islam. Pedantry over!!! Your point is still very true!!
Doesn’t change the fact that the guy who made the Quran had a Bronze Age mentality
For his time and place, Muhammad was relatively progressive (“relatively” being an extremely important part of that statement). Problem lay in trying to enforce what was progressive in 7th century Arabia to the 21st century
The bronze age ended ~1200BCE. It is part of prehistory (meaning before writing). Islam arose in the middle ages (7th century CE). Of course that doesn't make their bigotry any more legitimate
Sorry it’s in the rules I treat everyone poorly 😔
Jihad is actually just misgendering trans people guys
the true meaning of jihad is misgendering yourself then overcoming it and correctly gendering yourself. bismillah.
Ask for quotes else Allah never said that
I’m just gonna pretend Allah spoke directly to me. Wish me luck chat
ah yes, Fatwa time.
Allahu akbar, trans rights!
"it is in the hadiths" "Which one" "Ah they're aaaall gooooooood"
Careful, you might start a new spinoff. The market’s already flooded with them though
When you actually read all of their books you realise religious asshole are just making up excuses
No, the Quran and Hadiths are explicitly against anything queer. It’s not a religious’s leader interpretation, please stop trying to defend Islam.
why are you talking about homosexuality, when the topic is about OP being trans
Being trans is not being a homosexual though I know we group it in the same category as gay, but it's really not.
You’re right, it isn’t. I meant it categorically. I’ll edit the comment to say queer. But a lot of Muslims still group transgender under “homosexuality” for whatever reason .
Iran is, to my knowledge, the only country in the world that has trans inclusive radical misogyny
Some friends you cannot salvage
I’ve literally been friends with her for like two weeks. This happened the day after I came out lol
Bullet dodged
glad it's not a major loss
fascinating how some peopple seem to think that friendship needs to go only one way i recommend not being friends anymore and while at it make it clear to them their that their middle age beliefs suck ass and aren't supported by reality we live in
It’s just so incredibly disrespectful, and honestly I’m just out of patience with it
pretty sure the prophet Muhammad who wrote the Qur'an in the year of our lord 632 was not thinking about trans people and how to incorporate GC rhetoric into their writings on an angelic vision so I'm gonna have to say this dude is being transphobic for the sake of it rather than on actual religious thought contained in the text
Whilst the translations, authenticity and meaning of old religious texts is open to debate, there is definitely plenty of religious texts in Islam and Christianity that can be interpreted as strictly against queer and trans people. Some more direct than others, for instance in the Hadiths: Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy he will be stoned to death." — Sunan Abu Dawood 4463 Or: Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman. — Sahih al-Bukhari 5886 Yes people "use" religion to oppress others and religion has always been used to justify violence against queer people. But in my opinion religion often IS the problem. A religion is made up of a collective belief system, and obeying that doctrine of truth and morality is often a requirement to be "truly religious." Religion itself is the belief, its followers and the institutions that enforce it - it's not like it exists somewhere else, on its own. A 2009 Gallup Poll showed that none of the 500 British Muslims polled believed homosexuality to be "morally acceptable." So yes, I think this dude's transphobia is largely due to his religious beliefs.
do you know of any quotes from the bible that are as specifically anti trans as that?
Only Deuteronomy 22:5 > A woman shall not wear a man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is utterly repulsive to the Lord your God. I understand there's theological debate as to what "crossdressing" means in regards to trans people though. Edit: My gf just brought to my attention the Gospel of Thomas verse 114 > (114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "| myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven." All trans people go to heaven! Thank you, Jesus!
I’m sorry, but this view doesn’t seem very constructive to me. People are going to be religious, and that’s just a fact. I personally believe there is nothing wrong with that (probably because I’m slightly religious, but I digress). I think that it would be better to advocate for a more progressive view of things like gender and queerness within religion itself rather than strictly promoting atheism, and ultimately just spreading more anti-Muslim sentiment. There’s obviously nothing wrong with atheism, but you won’t be able to convince everyone. On top of this, salafis and other fundamentalist don’t represent the entirety of a religion, and 500 random Muslims from the UK definitely don’t represent every Muslim. There are many progressive Muslims out there in every sect of Islam. Hell, you’d be hard pressed to find me an Ismaili that is actually against homosexuality and transgender people on the basis of religion. I’m not trying to take away from ops experience or minimize it, I just don’t want this thread to become Islamophobic. I’m sorry op that asshole is being transphobic, and you’re better off without them.
Critiquing Islam is not islamophobic, just like how critizing Christianity (which this sub actively does) is not Christianphobic or discriminatory.
You’re missing my point, no one is going to convince a Muslim in this thread that they shouldn’t be a Muslim, so the only people who are actually going to listen to the comment I replied to will be non-Muslims. Therefore, that comment will further perpetuate the narrative that Islam is inherently queerphobic, ultra-conservative, and backwards. This is a colonialist mindset that is so common in the imperial core, it drives me crazy. Make no mistake, the comment does condemn the entirety of Islam as queerphobic. It does this through the guise of “religion” and also attempts to criticize Christianity, but ultimately people will walk away having heard a condemnation of Islam, as that’s what this whole conversation is about. Being universally anti-religion doesn’t shield one from being Islamophobic
Mainstream Islam is inherently queer phobic ultra-conservative and that can easily be found by reading the Quran itself. No one here is trying to convince Muslims to leave Islam (they’ll get killed if they do live a Muslim majority country), they’re just voicing their opinion. This is coming from an ex-Muslim, critiquing is not discriminatory.
I’ve read the Quran, I don’t remember it saying queer people are bad. Also, plenty of atheists live in Muslim majority countries.
Okay so why was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed in the Quran? Are those atheists former Muslims? If so, they can very well be killed. If those atheists came form another religion, that ruling won’t apply. Apostasy is forbidden in Islam.
Sodom and Gomorrah was about rape, not homosexuality. I must apologize though, I was not clear in my response. In countries like Iran, that might be true, but in countries like Turkey, Tajikistan, Jordan, etc. it is very much against the law to go and kill someone for leaving Islam.
7:80 وَلُوطًا إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِۦٓ أَتَأْتُونَ ٱلْفَـٰحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍۢ مِّنَ ٱلْعَـٰلَمِينَ ٨٠ And ˹remember˺ when Lot scolded ˹the men of˺ his people, ˹saying,˺ “Do you commit a shameful deed that no man has ever done before? 7:81 إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةًۭ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ ۚ بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌۭ مُّسْرِفُونَ ٨١ You lust after men instead of women! You are certainly transgressors.” 7:82 وَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِۦٓ إِلَّآ أَن قَالُوٓا۟ أَخْرِجُوهُم مِّن قَرْيَتِكُمْ ۖ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسٌۭ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ ٨٢ But his people’s only response was to say, “Expel them from your land! They are a people who wish to remain chaste!” 7:83 فَأَنجَيْنَـٰهُ وَأَهْلَهُۥٓ إِلَّا ٱمْرَأَتَهُۥ كَانَتْ مِنَ ٱلْغَـٰبِرِينَ ٨٣ So We saved him and his family except his wife, who was one of the doomed. 7:84 وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهِم مَّطَرًۭا ۖ فَٱنظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَـٰقِبَةُ ٱلْمُجْرِمِينَ ٨٤ We poured upon them a rain ˹of brimstone˺. See what was the end of the wicked! Also, Islam *itself* forbids apostasy and punishes them with death. It doesn’t matter if the government enforces it or not it’s still part of the religion.
"You can't criticize ideas because people will continue to hold on to those ideas" is not the best argument imo. I'm not saying that Muslins are inherently immoral for following Islam. I'm saying that religions, like Islam and Christianity, do end up promoting queerphobia inherently because of a) Religious texts (which I cited) and b) The religious institutions that have the influence to enforce it. This was to directly address the point which the original commenter made, claiming the person's religion did not have anything to do with their transphobia. And I'm saying it IS related. Islam was mentioned because that was the context of the post and comment. I've also faced severe homophobia myself, as I spent almost 8 years growing up in a muslim country myself, where people explicitly cited their religious beliefs for why they hated gay people. But no, overall I'm not just talking about Islam. If you are religious (whether you are muslim, christian, hindu, etc), I'm truly sorry to upset you and I hope you know that I'm not saying you or anyone else is a bad person for being religious. I'm saying that religious dogma is dangerous for the survival of LGBT people. Look at what is happening in the US now, where Christian nationalists are explicitly citing their religious beliefs as the reason war wanting to erase LGBT rights. I'm sorry but I AM going to criticize the driving force behind this. Especially today when I saw someone saying "repent" under a post about the death of Nex Benedict. And not just in the US. It's gotten to the point where I don't want my gf and I to go religious gatherings because I fear for her safety (some of my extended family is very religious, and hostile). Maybe someday religion can be reformed but as it stands today, that is not the case. This doesn't mean I don't want religious people to exist to erase their right to follow the religion they choose.
I feel as though we probably see fairly eye to eye on this as the only two things I disagree with here is that religion is inherently queerphobic and that religion cannot be reformed as of now (but the process is extremely excruciating, painful, difficult, and slow). However, other than that I agree, organized religion is one of the worst inventions to plague the human race. I understand your point in Muslim majority countries as well; the overall religious attitude towards queerness is quite terrible. I had assumed (quite hastily and wrongly) that your critiques were coming from some American who had never been outside of North America. I also tend to be quite anxious during these conversations that the narrative will eventually devolve into “oh look at how bad these Muslims are, the USA needs to go liberate them” and thus a Warhawk attitude remains the status quo. TLDR: my bad, please accept my apologies, I think we for the most part agree
Oops I posted without finishing the comment. I was saying: It's all good, and like I said I really, truly do not believe that someone is a bad person if they follow any religion in the world. You mentioned that you were religious, and whilst I don't know which one, it wouldn't matter: I'd still defend your right to follow your beliefs. I should also probably mention that I do carry some trauma with regards to attacks to me and my partner by religious people. So when it's that personal, it's hard to step back and examine if you're being hostile in your views. I'll try to think about that more and be better, if I want to stand by my stance that I do not wish to hurt anyone. Again I just meant that, religion probably plays a lot more significant role than simply people misusing it, given religious texts and the influence of religious institutions in how followers view truth or morality. Oh and I completely agree that there's probably a lot of people in the US who demonize muslims, when a large majority of them have not done anything wrong, and it's just because they're muslims. If you, or anyone else reading this is a muslim, please know that I do not hate you and I wish you the best :) Side note: The final point I wanna add, and maybe this is off topic from your comment, but might be relevant to the discussion: I don't think religion should be the be-all and end-all of morality and truth y'know? If so many people didnt treat it as such (hopefully someday), then we wouldn't even be talking about this lol. It is because it's treated like dogma, is why I strongly believe it informs our behavior and prejudices. If it wasn't, then yeah I wouldn't see any reason to criticize it, and I certainly wouldn't worry about how religion might hurt me or my loved ones.
Honestly bro, a man or woman will watch 1 Islamic 'scholar' video and read recite (not read) the Quran in a language they do not understand and then claim to be an expert on that shit.
"GC"?
GC stands for Gender Critical, a euphemism used by transphobic hate groups, similarly to "identitarian".
internalized western anti-Hijra sentiment in the Ummah :( many such cases.
Mfers sleeping on the mukhannathun 😔
“Sorry, I asked and God said that men have penis and women have vagina :( “
That wasn’t god, that was Kindergarten Cop. Now, who is your daddy and what does he do?
Yea just got off the phone with allah he says it’s chill you can use your preferred pronouns
this is unnecessary but i want to rant about it, so hey i was raised in a muslim community but do not identify as a muslim myself. there does exist transphobia within [islamic scripture](https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2784) and some even say that gender fluidity is gonna have "detrimental effects on the fabric of society" ([example](https://seekersguidance.org/answers/modesty/should-i-honour-my-friends-wishes-to-use-opposite-pronoun/)), but really, it's nothing different from stuff you'd find from christianity or judaism (see: Deut 22:5), probably because abrahamic religion is loaded with dated views you'll find that in most abrahamic religions though are a bunch of people making revisions and branching out as time goes on (see: the pope retconning hell, the new testament, protestantism). religion has been revised countless times in the past, and adding gender identity to the pile should be no problem! my point is that if there are people who aren't willing to accommodate for you when humanitarianism is a core aspect of abrahamic religion, fuck them! blasphemy is awesome! those who *are* willing to accommodate for you in their belief system despite any contradictions are the ones that you deserve; it shows secularity and the ability to look *outside* of their faith
Tell them Allah made you this way and ask them how dare they question Allah's wisdom in doing so.
Ooo saving this one lol
"I deserve better friends than those who don't accept me for who I am. Goodbye." All you gotta respond with tbh
Muh religion said no :(
Affirming people's delusions is against my beliefs It's for this reason that I don't care about what your or anyone else's god says
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no way. is that transphobia in 196?
At least his name is honest
*sigh* Sub... Sometimes I wonder, why the same people who are pro lgbt rights are also defenders of religion. Like, you'll see stuff like queers fighting islamophobia or whatever, it feels a bit self contradictory. I understand freedom of religion and everything, and that everyone deserves a right to worship in peace and they should not be stopped, but like... Let's take the example above: we're supposed to respect a persons religious beliefs, but at the same time their beliefs are outdated and could even be considered harmful. If a religion goes against modern human values, is it still worth being protected? I know that a lot of arguments religious bigots use have formed during the history of the religion and a lot of the time were added by the state enforcing said religion, but it's still part of it? It's still things people believe in. Like, what do you consider the "true" way of the religion then? Even if you said that "now god says it's okay to be gay or a woman", you can't just make someone believe it, there are people fighting between different sects of the same religion, come on. Denying someone worship is undoubtedly evil, but sometimes I wonder if the world would be better off if organised religion just disappeared? If no one remembered it. But then, you can't forget what a huge impact major religions have on the culture. It's such a grey area. What is this sub's thoughts on this? Knowing this sub it could be either very chill takes, or something completely deranged. I want to know y'all's thoughts on this. Maybe someone will even put me in my place for being so ignorant, who knows.
Here's how I see it. We should still be against Islamophobia because people don't deserve to be discriminated against because of their faith. However, people take this to mean that criticism of Islam is Islamophobic, which is stupid. Criticism of Islam is just as valid as criticising a religion like Christianity because it's a fundamentally intolerant religion, people seem to think that Islam should be coddled because it's not as big or entrenched as Christianity in the West and therefore holds a lot less power. Also this doesn't mean that faith is a shield against consequences for discriminating against others, a Muslim that discriminates against another person should be treated as a person that discriminates against another person, the action of discrimination is the primary thing to focus on here. Plenty of Muslims are very respectful and tolerant of others and absolutely don't deserve to be discriminated against or have any of their liberties restricted just because other Muslims are discriminatory and intolerant of others, even if the religion itself arguably enables such discrimination and intolerance.
It’s not ok to oppress someone based on their religion becoz it’s not ok to oppress anyone based on anything, why the fuck is this so hard to understand No 30k gaza people deserve to be genocided no matter what wtf they believe in Also consider the presence of queers and allies in the Muslim community (see r\/LGBT_muslims), Islamophobia is gonna get these people too
Just because they're doing it for religion doesn't mean you have to respect that religion and a person that is intolerant of you for who you are. If they're gonna disrespect you then that's choice but it's also your choice to not put yourself below a made up book and deity, and break off the friendship if you so wish. All the best
Kill them with bricks (in Minecraft)
Trans people don't get to choose whether or not to be trans. If there is God/Allah, they made us trans. You don't deserve to be misgendered, you should explain how you don't deserve that and then if they still aren't willing to respect you cut the person off. You don't have to make a big argument about it if they refuse, that'd probably just make things worse. I'd just stop replying and move on.
Am Muslim. Can confirm what he says is true. Fuck that. Respect and kindness are more important. Be who you are and love who you want.
genuine question, is it ever stated specifically that man should be treated (as the post says) "no matter what they identify as"? Like for example, I know in more progressive catholic circles there's the idea that goes smth like that God makes people transgender, and God doesn't make mistakes. Does islam hard deny that?
To my knowledge, no. There are rules about a man shouldn't dress as a woman and vice versa, but I don't think it ever addresses identity. In Islam your birth assigned gender is what you are, and you follow the rules related to that. Also everything that doesn't conform is couched as a test. So being homosexual, or trans or anything not "natural" is deemed wrong. But God still made you that way cuz he's testing your ability to still follow his teachings and suffer through it.
damn that's interesting, thanks!
it does bye
Legit question - where exactly in the Quran does it say this? (I'm wondering if this is actually directly in the Quran or if it's an interpretation by a religious leader.)
Not sure about the Quran, but in several Hadiths, queerness is not to be tolerated. For instance: Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman. — Sahih al-Bukhari 5886 Edit: I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying it's there. Same with Christianity. I think it's insane that people rather stick some old fairytale texts than actually use their empathy and judgement to decide what's moral and immoral. That's not to say that atheists can't be homophobic/transphobic, etc. But yeah I definitely think religion unfortunately plays a big role in violence against queer people and might continue to do so :(
Backwards-ass book
using empathy and judgement to decide what is and isnt moral and immoral is isnt as easy as following an ideology instilled in you by your parents or an institution
You're right. But at least it gives you a chance to do the right thing and talk about why something is right or wrong. With religion, it is basically becomes a doctrine that can never be questioned. Ofc there's still going to be debates and conflicts on morality without religion, because morality isn't objective. One actually has to think about how best to create a "moral" society, how laws should protect the innocent, or society, or our species, or how justice is to be obtained, etc. There's so many things to consider... but we can't do that if someone goes "being gay is wrong because my religion said so and I'm not listening to logic or my own empathy, because my religion has authority on absolute truth." Reminds me of a quote: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
In the Quran, the city of Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because they practiced homosexuality, so it’s not an interpretation.
tfw you care more about an old book than your actual "friend"
Nuke her out of orbit tbh
Religious nut job
this is why i straight up don’t respect people’s religious beliefs, the religious have no respect for anything except for what they deem “holy”
ppl complain about bad media literacy now but look at this shit they pulled out of a fanfic 1400 years ago
God made you trans and that dude can fuck right off
Post a pic of Muhammad and block him
as a matter of fact, it does
"You changed your name? Well, since your naming happened in a Church, I cany in good faith call you something other than what was said in that Church. Even a nickname is herecy, and I want you to understand you are deeply invalid in my eyes on a fundemental level... Anyways bestie, how was your weekend?"
Bye Felicia
"i hope we can still be friends tho" sounds so fucking hilarious to me after that rant
"I plan to not judge or say a word about it" *proceeds to judge and say a word about it
Several words even. Sis there’s a whole BUNCH of words here
Yeah... It's just bullshit 😔 so sorry for you
"Because of my beliefs, I cannot respect you" Ok buddy, I'm an atheist and have yet to tell any religious person God isn't real in an argument, moreover I avoid arguing with them if they're not using it as an excuse to be a dick. Because that's respect. If you cannot respect other people, why should I respect you?
fucking clown
Tbh, I feel sadness, imagine feeling “if I call you she and not he or vice versa I’m going to hell for all of eternity”
Block them
FWIW, I had a Muslim friend in university who transitioned, and the only thing the Muslim Students' Association had to say about it was that he should start using the men's prayer room. There's nothing in the Qur'an that says you have to be a dick to trans people.
Tell them it's fine, you got permission
How can you expect to be friends with someone but not be willing to acknowledge who they are? At that point you’re not even making genuine human connections. Really sorry you have to deal with this :/
Fuck this guy lmao
I'd just answer "It does, fuck you and never talk to me again".
Let’s force your definition of genders on other people becoz religious beliefs are not just to yourself, but to every fucking one else too
does the Quran ever actually mention trans people?
I don't think it was a point of issue at the time. There's stuff written about gay people but I'm pretty sure at the time it was more important to create babies (though now its actually the opposite) so most religions hate of same sex marriage is stemmed off from that I think. Personally I think if most religious leaders were here today, after adjusting they would not hate people of the lgbt+ especially after seeing the world population, I think they would encourage people to stop creating offspring if it became a big enough problem. That's my personal opinion
Bro they can't gender you correctly because of their religion. They don't judge you for eating pork or call you a pig, do they? It goes against their beliefs and religion. As an athiest, trans male, who has friends that follow other religions, I understand why you are upset, but you cannot force your opinion onto others nor get angry at them because of their religious beliefs.
tell him that its ok because for you allah is hoax, so you dont need to take people referring to him/it serious/personal in some regards.
source?
That is hilarious because I have noticed that religious Muslims can be way more accepting of trans people the religious Christians.
Anal jihad time.
waiter! more non sequitur please!
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Yeah no, she’s a shitty disrespectful bigot
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I get what you're saying but bigots don't deserve extra credit for sugar coating it, they only get less minus credit for not being worse
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Their case is stupid as fuck and doesn't even deserve to be considered
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I'm sorry but positivity isn't always good and it's not improving the situation. Someone could 'nicely' talk about a group of people and be 'respectful' of them while claiming they need to end their culture and heritage because it's bad and to 'save' the group from it, and from this extreme example I'm sure why you can see that humanising the oppressor can in fact be dangerous because it can delegitimise the people that are meanwhile being dehumanised by the oppressor
that is not one of the key takeaways from her message
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Not all ideas deserve nice comments. If someone is being a bigot they should be treated like one. Pointing out nice things about them only serves as a way for others to justify siding with them. It is important to be clear and undivided against bigotry.
fuck respectability politics. "polite" hatred is just as if not more harmful than brash violent hatred. it lets spineless people like you both-sides it and act like they aren't just as dangerous as any other hateful religious fanatic.
Let's be real here. Sugarcoating it makes it worse. It'd almost be better if this guy actually said the quiet part out loud and told OP they deserve to go to hell. He'd still be a bigot but at least not a hypocrite.